Spiderman: Homecoming

[Dienekes]

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Because the climax of the film shows Peter nearly crashing a plane into a major metropolitan area even after he's fired. That's the exact opposite of learning from his mistakes.

I get that the weapons have to be shown to be dangerous, but it would help if there were a scene where that happens without Peter escalating the problem.

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I think you're missing one of the points in the Tony/spidey plot. The reason why Peter got in trouble was that he caused the damage, yes, but also because he was taking it upon himself to deal with the threat, without Tony's supervision. He was basically the kid stealing his fathers car to go joyriding. Tony takes away the keys. There were several times that Peter could have contacted Tony to get support. But he doesn't, he is trying to prove how super he is.

The finale Pete spends basically every moment he has trying to get Tony and Happy's attention to deal with the issue. It's on them that they ignore his warnings.

Anyway, it was alright. Wasn't a fan of this version of Flash. For all the ******* bully's faults, he was at least brave. Eventually becoming a decorated (if tragic) soldier. In this he pretty much has no redeeming qualities except I guess he's slightly smarter now.

And the MJ line about having friends now felt completely unearned. No one demonstrated being friends with you. The teacher just appointed you as team captain. That said, I enjoyed MJs character. Again not, at all, like comic MJ. But I could see this character beating Chameleon with a baseball bat. So that puts her a step above the last movie rendition, who followed the comics more, but seemed to never get away from the damsel in distress position.

Still want to one day see 'my Spidey' on the big screen some day. When I read the comics he was married, and out of college. But for some reason we keep getting sent back to high school.

[tomandtish]

I will say, something I thought I noticed in Civil War, and this movie seems to confirm it for me, although I'd welcome your thoughts, but has anyone noticed...

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that this Spidey doesn't seem to have spider sense? He gets blindsided quite a bit. I was wondering if maybe they were setting up "Karen" to take that role in some form.

[Talakeal]

I will say, something I thought I noticed in Civil War, and this movie seems to confirm it for me, although I'd welcome your thoughts, but has anyone noticed...

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that this Spidey doesn't seem to have spider sense? He gets blindsided quite a bit. I was wondering if maybe they were setting up "Karen" to take that role in some form.

In Civil War it seemed like he had it but didn't understand how to use it. He told Stark his senses were too acute, and every time he was about to get blindsided he looked around in confusion first.

In this movie, yeah, I got nothing.

[Razade]

Yeah, was wondering it too. At times it seems he has it, at others he doesn't.

[Bartmanhomer]

Ok I saw Spider-Man Homecoming in IMAX 3D and it was awesome. So much action and excitement. It was way better than the first Spider-Man Reboot. It was also funny as heck. So it was a butt-kicking movie. I hope that make a sequel out of this movie. So I give the movie five out of five stars.

[Rogar Demonblud]

A sequel is already scheduled for two years from now.

[Bartmanhomer]

A sequel is already scheduled for two years from now.

All right!

[Douglas]

The final post-credits scene was truly masterful trolling by Marvel.

[Ramza00]

A sequel is already scheduled for two years from now.

They are already talking via Disney's marketing department about how the Spiderman sequel is going to reboot the marvel mcu into its next act for it takes place after Infinity War Part 1 and Part 2 (who's names of the infinity war movies still need to be renamed.)

[Pex]

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Because the climax of the film shows Peter nearly crashing a plane into a major metropolitan area even after he's fired. That's the exact opposite of learning from his mistakes.

I get that the weapons have to be shown to be dangerous, but it would help if there were a scene where that happens without Peter escalating the problem.

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How exactly is the plane crashing Peter's fault? Last I checked, he wasn't the one breaking into the plane. I mean, I guess he could have let Vulture steal the entire plane and not interfered...

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Also used his webbing to manipulate the wingflaps to force the plane away from buildings and crash on the unpopulated beach. What didn't make sense was why were the lights of Coney Island on but no one was there nor on the beach.

[Keltest]

Yeah, was wondering it too. At times it seems he has it, at others he doesn't.

That seems consistent with a sense being overloaded, tbh. If theres a bright light in your eyes, you squint. A loud sound, you cover your ears. A really strong smell, plug your nose, and so on. Peter is still learning to regulate this sense, squinting enough to block out the painful amount of light without completely blinding himself, so to speak.

[Bohandas]

I wish I could understand why movies produced in the US come out days later in the US.

In any case I look forward to seeing this on Sunday.

I agree, phased rollouts should be illegal (as should all other forms of geographically unequal distribution, including region coded DVDs)

[Ramza00]

I agree, phased rollouts should be illegal (as should all other forms of geographically unequal distribution, including region coded DVDs)

While they are at it, phased rollouts of media type (Movie Theater, Blu Ray, Netflix, etc) should also be illegal

[Emperor Demonking]

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Seriously? Is no-one else bothered by the huge collateral damage that Spidey comes within a hair's breadth of inflicting every time he interferes with a heist?

No. You're not. I enjoyed the film when watching it, the humour landed for me better than any Marvel film has thus far, but after the film finished that annoyed me.

I wish there was one scene of someone they sold to doing the equivalent without Spider-Man's involvement.

[Lacuna Caster]

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The finale Pete spends basically every moment he has trying to get Tony and Happy's attention to deal with the issue. It's on them that they ignore his warnings.

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Peter gets punished because he didn't listen. Tony told him to ignore Vulture, that other people would handle it. And that's exactly what Tony did in contacting the FBI and putting them onto Toomes. Peter didn't listen and created a disaster. That's the problem. But I think you're being too hard on him for "creating a disaster". As far as he was concerned Tony and Happy were ignoring the problem and he took it upon himself to fight Toomes. That it is dangerous to fight Toomes doesn't negate the fact that peddling that tech on the street is also dangerous and moreso in the long run if allowed to continue.

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As I mentioned to Razade, if his genuine concern was stopping the shipment of arms, and honestly realised that the grown-ups should be in charge, then he would have spent the finale getting in touch with Tony by any means necessary (such as driving or slinging his way to Stark Tower.) Asking his 'guy in the chair' to place one phone-call seems like a pretty feeble gesture.

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Also used his webbing to manipulate the wingflaps to force the plane away from buildings and crash on the unpopulated beach.

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That's also nothing new. He ran into the bodega to aid the owner, rescued his friends from the elevator, and was 98% successful in gluing the ferry back together- but none of these people would've been in danger if Peter hadn't been meddling in the first place. No-one is saying that he doesn't scramble to patch his mistakes, but that's a poor excuse for making the same one over and over.

No. You're not. I enjoyed the film when watching it, the humour landed for me better than any Marvel film has thus far, but after the film finished that annoyed me.

Yeah, the humour was fine.

[Dr.Samurai]

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As I mentioned to Razade, if his genuine concern was stopping the shipment of arms, and honestly realised that the grown-ups should be in charge, then he would have spent the finale getting in touch with Tony by any means necessary (such as driving or slinging his way to Stark Tower.) Asking his 'guy in the chair' to place one phone-call seems like a pretty feeble gesture.

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I'm not sure what you're expecting from the movie. I see that you're saying he should have done more to get Tony involved but I don't know how that would have happened.

Obviously when he sees the ATM getting robbed, he's not going to ignore that or call Happy. He can handle some bank robbers. That scene establishes that there is some new, very dangerous tech on the streets. But Spider-Man couldn't have known that going in, and expecting him to simply ignore a very obvious robbery right across the street is unreasonable. Ok, next.

He's at a party in who-knows-where Suburbia, and sees a bunch of giant blue explosions going off in the distance. So he goes to inspect. Again, he doesn't know what he's going towards. He has a suspicion, of course. I guess you can make the argument that he should have called Happy then and there before going to check it out. But I don't think that's a deal breaker here. He goes to check it out and sees someone about to get murdered and intervenes. Then we get the van chase and the Vulture comes in. Then Tony's suit saves him and they talk and Peter tells him what's going on. Ok, so I don't see anything egregious going on here and Tony now knows about the weapons and the Vulture. Next.

Peter sees the two goons from the chase at his high school, and realizes he has an immediate opportunity to put a tracker on them. Here you can complain that he's going against Tony's commands, which is fine. He is. But I think it's well within reason for Peter to take the opportunity given that he literally just made Tony aware the night before and probably thinks he's making a bigger break on the case now by tracking these guys than Tony has had a chance to. At this point, he can't tell Tony anything because Tony has forbidden him from doing anything more.

After this Karen IDs Donald Glover, we get that great Intimidation scene, and that leads to the scene at the Ferry. What exactly do you think Peter should be thinking or doing in this scene if not going after Toomes? He told Tony, Tony said to leave it to other people and forbid him to do anything else. Meanwhile, the goons are still sneaking around, still stealing weapons, and still selling them. So Peter knows a deal is going down, and... what should he have done? After this scene, Tony takes the suit.

Peter goes to Prom, finds out Toomes identity and tries to stop him. He figures out the next theft will be of Stark's plane. He gets in touch with Happy and Happy hangs up on him. This is hammered home throughout the entire movie. He can't get in touch with these guys at all. They don't take him seriously. Maybe, technically, if Peter was perfect, he would have kept trying. But he's also got super powers, and is trying to be a super hero. Super heroes take matters into their own hands. He's also fifteen, so he's not exactly an adult making the best decisions. He tried.

What would you have changed in this sequence of events to make the movie better for you? Bear in mind it's a Spider-Man movie, so I'm not sure that "calling Iron Man more times until he comes and saves the day" is a reasonable expectation.

[Sholos]

I get the feeling, Lacuna, that you would rather superheroes stand back, call the proper authorities, and generally not superhero. Is this a wrong impression?

[Douglas]

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As I mentioned to Razade, if his genuine concern was stopping the shipment of arms, and honestly realised that the grown-ups should be in charge, then he would have spent the finale getting in touch with Tony by any means necessary (such as driving or slinging his way to Stark Tower.) Asking his 'guy in the chair' to place one phone-call seems like a pretty feeble gesture.

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At that point in the movie, I think Peter had good reason to expect that the end result of him frantically driving and slinging his way to Stark Tower would have been Tony dismissing his concerns or outright refusing to talk to him. And then Peter would have no chance of catching up with the bad guy because he'd have spent so much time letting the bad guy get a giant head start.

Getting Iron Man to intervene was Peter's best option, but he couldn't be anywhere near sure of succeeding at it. Without being able to rely on Iron Man (because Tony and Happy had very low respect for him), Peter's only fallback option that had any reasonable chance of success was Spiderman taking it into his own hands. And for that to work, Peter had to go for it immediately, before the bad guy could get too far ahead.

[Emperor Demonking]

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I'm not sure what you're expecting from the movie. I see that you're saying he should have done more to get Tony involved but I don't know how that would have happened.

Obviously when he sees the ATM getting robbed, he's not going to ignore that or call Happy. He can handle some bank robbers. That scene establishes that there is some new, very dangerous tech on the streets. But Spider-Man couldn't have known that going in, and expecting him to simply ignore a very obvious robbery right across the street is unreasonable. Ok, next.

He's at a party in who-knows-where Suburbia, and sees a bunch of giant blue explosions going off in the distance. So he goes to inspect. Again, he doesn't know what he's going towards. He has a suspicion, of course. I guess you can make the argument that he should have called Happy then and there before going to check it out. But I don't think that's a deal breaker here. He goes to check it out and sees someone about to get murdered and intervenes. Then we get the van chase and the Vulture comes in. Then Tony's suit saves him and they talk and Peter tells him what's going on. Ok, so I don't see anything egregious going on here and Tony now knows about the weapons and the Vulture. Next.

Peter sees the two goons from the chase at his high school, and realizes he has an immediate opportunity to put a tracker on them. Here you can complain that he's going against Tony's commands, which is fine. He is. But I think it's well within reason for Peter to take the opportunity given that he literally just made Tony aware the night before and probably thinks he's making a bigger break on the case now by tracking these guys than Tony has had a chance to. At this point, he can't tell Tony anything because Tony has forbidden him from doing anything more.

After this Karen IDs Donald Glover, we get that great Intimidation scene, and that leads to the scene at the Ferry. What exactly do you think Peter should be thinking or doing in this scene if not going after Toomes? He told Tony, Tony said to leave it to other people and forbid him to do anything else. Meanwhile, the goons are still sneaking around, still stealing weapons, and still selling them. So Peter knows a deal is going down, and... what should he have done? After this scene, Tony takes the suit.

Peter goes to Prom, finds out Toomes identity and tries to stop him. He figures out the next theft will be of Stark's plane. He gets in touch with Happy and Happy hangs up on him. This is hammered home throughout the entire movie. He can't get in touch with these guys at all. They don't take him seriously. Maybe, technically, if Peter was perfect, he would have kept trying. But he's also got super powers, and is trying to be a super hero. Super heroes take matters into their own hands. He's also fifteen, so he's not exactly an adult making the best decisions. He tried.

What would you have changed in this sequence of events to make the movie better for you? Bear in mind it's a Spider-Man movie, so I'm not sure that "calling Iron Man more times until he comes and saves the day" is a reasonable expectation.

I feel like not mentioning

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Peter removing the tracker from his suit (and to a lesser extent lying about why he was going to Washington, or where he was when at the ferry are/

is a glaring omission.

[Dr.Samurai]

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I'm not sure how it adds more, but feel free to add it to my post, right after "He can't tell Tony anything because Tony has forbidden him to do anything." In other words, Peter removing the tracker and hiding his actions are in line with the fact that he can't tell Tony what he's doing because Tony doesn't want him to do it.

If your argument is that he shouldn't lie to Tony, then we can just point out that he felt Tony and Happy weren't taking the threat seriously. And there was a sense of urgency. Not to mention, Tony took away the suit, which is a drastic action. What does Peter think might be the next step in "punishment"? Perhaps he'll lose any chance of being on the Avengers? Perhaps Tony tells Aunt May about his secret life as a vigilante? Who knows? At some point, you have to grant that Peter took Toomes very seriously, tried to get Tony and Happy involved, and didn't feel they were taking it seriously. After that, he's trying to stop Toomes without crossing Tony and Happy.

So yes, he lied and removed the tracker. But I don't think that changes anything that I'm saying.

Also, is your handle a nod to Piccolo?

[Reddish Mage]

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Seriously? Is no-one else bothered by the huge collateral damage that Spidey comes within a hair's breadth of inflicting every time he interferes with a heist?

I get that the weapons have to be shown to be dangerous, but it would help if there were a scene where that happens without Peter escalating the problem.[/QUOTE]

It seems to be a major issue in the movie that Spidey makes a lot of mistakes and causes a lot of property damage while chasing the villains.

The consequences of some of these mistakes and general recklessness in going after the villains, time and time again include giant explosions, enormous property damage and

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mass endangerment of his friends. Tony Stark notes himself that people could have [if not should have] been killed as a result of any of Spiderman's exploits

There are many points that can be read from the fact that things tend to explode and go wrong.

However what we are explicitly given as a reason for a lot of the disasters is that: its a consequence of Spidey being inexperienced and in over his head.

The real question is, if that's the case, how does Peter later redeem himself?

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I think you're missing one of the points in the Tony/spidey plot. The reason why Peter got in trouble was that he caused the damage, yes, but also because he was taking it upon himself to deal with the threat, without Tony's supervision. He was basically the kid stealing his fathers car to go joyriding. Tony takes away the keys. There were several times that Peter could have contacted Tony to get support. But he doesn't, he is trying to prove how super he is.

The finale Pete spends basically every moment he has trying to get Tony and Happy's attention to deal with the issue. It's on them that they ignore his warnings.

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Actually, I think saying Peter never tries to contact Tony or Happy isn't true. There's a pattern of interaction in which Tony basically tells Peter "someone will take care of it" (although not inspiring much confidence), followed by Peter continuing to work on it.

What happens in the finale is we get a single phone call from Peter's superhacker friend. That isn't exactly blow up Happy's phone or otherwise trying to get in touch with Tony. Peter himself is chasing Vulture and isn't relying on any backup showing up.

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I think the end is comically confusing, largely because Peter Parker didn't "learn his lesson" as Tony Stark said (I think), but instead showed that he wouldn't be stopped from going after BIG THINGS even after having his suit taken away.

Tony could be rewarding Peter on his success but more likely Stark probably wanted to make Peter an Avenger so that Stark could have some control over Spiderman(Plan C, after Plan B - Take the suit, proved useless)). Peter, by saying he wanted to stick to his neighborhood, was instead finally acquiescing to Tony's Plan A.

[Lacuna Caster]

I get the feeling, Lacuna, that you would rather superheroes stand back, call the proper authorities, and generally not superhero. Is this a wrong impression?

No, I'm perfectly happy to see superheroes thumbing their nose at authority and going solo, provided that said authorities are shown to be incompetent, corrupt or overwhelmed, and/or the vigilante is less dangerous than the criminals. (For example, I don't mind the avengers seizing the initiative during the Chitauri invasion because conventional armed forces couldn't take on that kind of opponent without nuking the city.) That doesn't apply here.

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What would you have changed in this sequence of events to make the movie better for you? Bear in mind it's a Spider-Man movie, so I'm not sure that "calling Iron Man more times until he comes and saves the day" is a reasonable expectation.

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At that point in the movie, I think Peter had good reason to expect that the end result of him frantically driving and slinging his way to Stark Tower would have been Tony dismissing his concerns or outright refusing to talk to him. And then Peter would have no chance of catching up with the bad guy because he'd have spent so much time letting the bad guy get a giant head start.

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I'm not sure that's adequately demonstrated, but that's just shifting the blame from Spidey specifically to the script-writers. I mean, just off the top of my head- how about writing Happy as marginally more receptive? Or... how about Spidey tails Vulture long enough to snap some pictures with a phone and mail those on to Tony & Co.? Or how about hacking the plane's guidance system to send an SOS? Or shoot some flares? Failing that, could he succeed in stopping Vulture on the ground before he launches? Or after he lands with the cargo? Or could he at least not wreck the plane's engine and send it careening toward helpless civilians?

I get that running to Tony seems like a disempowering move, but there have got to be better solutions than this. If nothing else... you could have Iron Man come to a mid-air rescue, but then have Vulture jam the plane controls and/or blow up the hull. He absconds with a crate of cargo, forcing Tony to prevent the plane crash while Spidey peels off to deal with Toomes. Something. Anything!

I totally understand that Tony disciplining Peter is supposed to be a major plot point, but at least for me it leads to a Broken Aesop when he's subsequently congratulated for identical behaviour that only worked out due to luck.

[Sholos]

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Clearly Spidey was unable to stop Vulture before he got to the plane. Otherwise the fight on the plane would never have happened. As for hacking the plane or shooting off flares? How, exactly? Remember, Spidey never makes it inside the plane, we don't even know if the plane has flares, I'm willing to bet Spidey wouldn't know how to shoot them off anyways, and as already mentioned he was NEVER INSIDE THE PLANE! And yeah, I guess he could have let himself get chewed up by the engine, though I imagine that would have had a similar result with the added downside of a dead Spidey. So, no, none of your ideas really work in the situation as presented.

[Pex]

The final post-credits scene was truly masterful trolling by Marvel.

Very.

Not related:

There were a number of scenes where they could have put Peter in a humiliating situation for alleged humor value. I'm glad they chose not to, keeping the humor light and maintain taking the movie seriously. For example, changing into his costume in the alley, when in just his underwear a group of girls could have walked by or a policeman shows up to arrest him for indecent exposure. Back in his room, in his underwear again, with his friend and Aunt May walked in, they could have written Aunt May to reference her being okay with Peter being gay or saying she already knew and glad he's finally comfortable with it then Peter has to deny it and make the whole situation awkward. The party could have been another instance where he's seen in his costume sans mask by Flash but it's assumed he's just pretending to be Spiderman and everyone mocks him at school the next day.

[Dr.Samurai]

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I'm not sure that's adequately demonstrated, but that's just shifting the blame from Spidey specifically to the script-writers.

Not shifting the blame so much as pointing out what the movie is portraying. I mean... the movie is showing us that the guys are not that responsive to Peter, and even when Tony finally acknowledges the Toomes problem, he still seems pretty dismissive about it. At no point did they try to make Peter feel like they were taking the Toomes thing as seriously as he was, or even as seriously as it needed to be.

But more to this particular point, it's hard to argue "he should have tried harder to get in touch with Tony or Happy" when the movie is literally showing us that getting in touch with Tony or Happy is not fruitful.

I mean, just off the top of my head- how about writing Happy as marginally more receptive?

They could have done that, sure. But they didn't. In this story, Happy seems completely uninterested in essentially babysitting Peter, and overwhelmed with the logistics of moving Stark Tower. Peter is trying to make Toomes Happy's problem, and Happy is trying to get Peter to ignore the problem.

Or... how about Spidey tails Vulture long enough to snap some pictures with a phone and mail those on to Tony & Co.?

I don't see how this would have changed anything. I mean... Tony knows about Toomes partway through the movie, and sets up an FBI sting to take him down. Pictures wouldn't do much at that point.

Or how about hacking the plane's guidance system to send an SOS?

How would Peter do that? Is he a hacker? He didn't even know how to hack the "training wheels" protocol. And he didn't have Karen on the plane. And he wasn't in the plane.

All that said, if we're talking about rewrites, I think that would be cool. Peter having his hands full with the Vulture and sending out a signal to alert Tony that something is wrong. He wouldn't need to hack it. It could just be an SOS button or something.

Or shoot some flares?

Not sure what this would really accomplish since no one had eyes on the plane.

Failing that, could he succeed in stopping Vulture on the ground before he launches?

No, because the Vulture buried him under tons of steel and concrete.

Or after he lands with the cargo?

This is a fair point, but I would save it for a more seasoned hero that might have the patience and experience to ambush the villain when he thinks he's gotten away with it.

But a couple of points... Toomes on his own (without the wings) is no match for Peter. Peter is trying to dislodge the wings from the plane. Presumably, he thought they would have careened off into the sky and away from the plane, and Toomes would be mostly defenseless. Peter could go in and web him up no problem. So maybe Peter didn't think it'd be so difficult to dislodge the vacuum seal and didn't expect for Toomes to suit up and have to fight him on the top of a plane at 30000ft in the air. It's not like Spiderman has an advantage up there; I don't think he was intending to fight Toomes.

Secondly, if Peter suspects that Toomes is targeting the plane because it's moving Stark's gear, there's a chance that not acting quickly allows Toomes to suit up in an Iron Man suit, making him significantly more dangerous than he already was with the wings.

The point being that I think it's reasonable for Peter to have felt that he needed to act then and there, as opposed to waiting for the plane to land and hitting Toomes when he reappears.

Or could he at least not wreck the plane's engine and send it careening toward helpless civilians?

I think you're being a little unfair here. He was going to die.

I get that running to Tony seems like a disempowering move, but there have got to be better solutions than this. If nothing else... you could have Iron Man come to a mid-air rescue, but then have Vulture jam the plane controls and/or blow up the hull. He absconds with a crate of cargo, forcing Tony to prevent the plane crash while Spidey peels off to deal with Toomes. Something. Anything!

This is certainly a cool possibility. Maybe all of Tony's suits are powered down and unavailable because of the move, and he just has like a weaker auxiliary suit with which to divert the plane, leaving Spiderman to handle Toomes on his own.

I totally understand that Tony disciplining Peter is supposed to be a major plot point, but at least for me it leads to a Broken Aesop when he's subsequently congratulated for identical behaviour that only worked out due to luck.

The ending is strange in that Tony is trying to get Peter to leave the heavy stuff to other people, and Peter's lesson learned seems more about realizing he doesn't need to join the Avengers and that his schooling is still important despite being a superhero. Those didn't jive well at the end, I totally grant that.

That said, I don't remember Tony saying that he "learned his lesson". I thought he said "he made a mature choice". So Tony might not have even been referring to Peter's rebellious nature. But, I admit I don't remember too well, so maybe he did. I agree that there seemed to have been two lessons needing to be learned here, and only one seems to have been resolved with that ending.

[Emperor Demonking]

The fact that the alleyway scene was just an opportunity to show Holland's abs surprised me when I was watching it. It felt like an obvious set up for a joke.

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I'm not sure how it adds more, but feel free to add it to my post, right after "He can't tell Tony anything because Tony has forbidden him to do anything." In other words, Peter removing the tracker and hiding his actions are in line with the fact that he can't tell Tony what he's doing because Tony doesn't want him to do it.

If your argument is that he shouldn't lie to Tony, then we can just point out that he felt Tony and Happy weren't taking the threat seriously. And there was a sense of urgency. Not to mention, Tony took away the suit, which is a drastic action. What does Peter think might be the next step in "punishment"? Perhaps he'll lose any chance of being on the Avengers? Perhaps Tony tells Aunt May about his secret life as a vigilante? Who knows? At some point, you have to grant that Peter took Toomes very seriously, tried to get Tony and Happy involved, and didn't feel they were taking it seriously. After that, he's trying to stop Toomes without crossing Tony and Happy.

So yes, he lied and removed the tracker. But I don't think that changes anything that I'm saying.

Also, is your handle a nod to Piccolo?

It just felt like stacking the deck by not mentioning it. Although, I'd stress that when one is endangering people's lives then there's a difference between actually "can't" and merely "can't without consequences".

My handle could be a nod to Picollo (I definitely really liked Picollo at the time) but I think I just thought it was OTT cool (sort of like Picollo).

[Frozen_Feet]

This was the best Spiderman movie I've seen yet. Haven't been this excited about the character since the first Sam Raimi movie.

Also, I hope we see more of Michael Keaton's Birdman Flying Vulture Guy, because he was Badass. I want those wings. And that bomber jacket.

[Rodin]

Just saw it, and I think I liked it even more than Dr. Strange. Michael Keaton was definitely a highlight...I think he played the best villain I've seen in the MCU, with the possible exception of Loki. Even then, Loki has never had the sheer presence Keaton brought. Brrrr.

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I was reading the other thread about superhero origins and wondering how you appease both those who don't know much (if anything) about the character and those who don't want the origin story recounted a billionth time.

This movie showed the compromise. We start off with Peter Parker playing at being a Spiderman. He's mostly in it to impress Stark and because he thinks fighting crime is cool. He isn't taking it terribly seriously.

Everybody already knows that he was bitten by a radioactive spider...but, just in case, we get a line about that. It's mentioned, they move on. Uncle Ben doesn't get brought up because he isn't important - yet. I suspect we'll see some flashbacks or discussion about his death in the next one.

Instead, the origin story is of how Peter learning how to superhero, and learning not to be reckless with his powers. By the end of the film, he's finally become THE Spiderman.

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After this Karen IDs Donald Glover, we get that great Intimidation scene, and that leads to the scene at the Ferry. What exactly do you think Peter should be thinking or doing in this scene if not going after Toomes? He told Tony, Tony said to leave it to other people and forbid him to do anything else. Meanwhile, the goons are still sneaking around, still stealing weapons, and still selling them. So Peter knows a deal is going down, and... what should he have done? After this scene, Tony takes the suit.

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Peter was explicitly in the wrong here. Knowing that a stash full of dangerously explosive weapons are on board, he should NEVER have attempted to stop them on his own. He could have planted more trackers in the weapons to allow them to be confiscated later, planted a tracker on Toomes to follow him back to his lair, or even just brought the video of everything back to Stark so the guys could be properly ID'd. He could have simply followed Toomes.

Instead, he gets overconfident and tries to take them down on his own, and the resulting superhero fight on a ferry boat full of explosives and civilians has the predictable result. Stark then correctly takes the suit away from him, because Peter hasn't demonstrated the maturity to use his powers responsibly.

All of that said, I'm in full agreement with you everywhere else. Peter could have done a lot of stuff earlier in the movie differently, but that's kinda the point - he's fourteen years old and kinda sucks at this. Him learning from his mistakes drives the plot. In the final battle he had precisely no choice about trying to stop Vulture then and there, and he DID attempt to call in backup and was ignored. And blaming Peter for nearly being punted into a jet engine when he was desperately trying to hang onto the outside of a freaking JET is just plain silly.

[Razade]

Loki and Toomes are certainly the strongest villains of the MCU, hopefully Thanos matches them.

[Pex]

The fact that the alleyway scene was just an opportunity to show Holland's abs surprised me when I was watching it. It felt like an obvious set up for a joke.

He's no Chris Pratt. He is 21 playing 15, so it's not like he's supposed to be buff. It's possible it's just a gratuitous shirtless scene that's a requirement in Hollywood these days, but at least it was framed in an illusion of appropriate context of changing from high school kid to superhero. Contrast with Ryan Reynold's promo for Deadpool 2 with his on purpose naked butt show, fitting for that character and movie, for the same context taken in a different direction. Had Peter actually been humiliated I would have been miffed. I really was worried they were going to do that and was relieved once his suit was on. The later scene of mistaking the car owner for a car thief was the appropriate humor level for a superhero rookie.