Erfworld 71, page 65

[Vreejack]

Put another way, the Alliance is winning the war, and Stanley is on his last legs. Is this really the time for death or glory charges against overwhelming odds?

Yes. If they do not take out the three uncroaked warlords then they will lose all the siege next turn.

[sihnfahl]

Jillian is still outnumbered 19 to 9, and we don't know the offensove and defensive stats of the various units. As a former player of turn based wargames, depending on what the combat resolution table looks like, attacking might be suicidal.<snip>

But are you factoring in that the dwagons aren't at 100% health? Combat tables don't tend to factor that in. They'd be losing units every round...

Put another way, the Alliance is winning the war, and Stanley is on his last legs. Is this really the time for death or glory charges against overwhelming odds?

Not necessarily winning. They have advantages, yes, but don't count Parson out yet.

[AngryAngel]

But are you factoring in that the dwagons aren't at 100% health? Combat tables don't tend to factor that in. They'd be losing units every round...

I've played games where the counters of damaged units were turned over to reveal 'damaged' stats, but Afrika Korps just compares total attack value of the attacking stack to total defense value of the defending stack, without regard to whether a unit is damaged or not.

[AngryAngel]

Yes. If they do not take out the three uncroaked warlords then they will lose all the siege next turn.

Sometimes, yes. :) But not always. How much Jillian and the Archons want to live to see the end of the war needs to be taken into consideration, too.

[magicwalker]

Oh boop...

[One Skunk Todd]

There's a mercenary outfit run by a mysterious man named "Charlie". Ansom paid him, he sent his mercenaries, who are parodies/references of Charlie's Angels. The flight attendant outfits make reference to that group's usually revealing costumes, as well as the fact that they are flying units.

They also bear more than passing resemblance to the Tour Guide/Stewardess Barbies from Toy Story II:

http://www.thetoydoctor.com/pics/tourguidebarbie.jpg

[Dr. T]

Some things that we learned from this page:

• ...
• You can apparently see farther over water than over heavy forest.
• ...

I'm not sure about that. In the previous page the group was one hex away from the dwagons. Maybe by now they are in the same hex. That would mean that Jillian did just run into an enemy camp she did not expect to be there. She might have to fight unprepared, without any chance to collect Ansom and the other warlords for reinforcement.

[jindra34]

Erm,... no?we are now at page 65 (not counting Klogs) so 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through. That still leaves the settlement of the current situation, then a wrap-up. I frankly don't see it going into another full turn, much less an extended battle - siege, tunnel, or otherwise.

And Pclips if i remeber right has said that they will not likely stay within the 90 page goal and are likely to over shoot it.

[Halfpunch]

I don't think we have enough information from this comic to say one way or the other if Jillian and Co. are in the same hex as the dwagons. In panel 10 it seems that the Hunters are passing over the beach, the logical boundary between forest and lake hexes and hinting that they have moved into the dwagon hex. The lack of immediate engagement could just be a function of distance and/or the warlord's restraint.

Also, as far as the Archons go I don't see any reason to propose there will be a conflict between them and Jillian of any kind. Ansom contracted them for an alliance to Jetstone, and they are under his ultimate command (being that he's Jetstone's chief warlord) but field commanded by Jillian at the moment (via Ansom's orders). "It would not invalidate our alliance agreement, but it complicates it somewhat" implies that they would follow Jillian's orders until Ansom superceded them with new ones, even if those orders were treasonous (just following orders sir..). Mercenaries rarely, if ever, get involved with internal power struggles unless ordered to.

Jillian can still rationalize not attacking based on the strength of the dwagon flight, and rightly so. Just because the dwagons are low on health doesn't mean their attacks are any weaker. Remember back on Page 12 she did take out a blue dwagon in one hit, but a red dwagon summarily took out her AND her gwiffon with one hit each. Parson would surely have the uncroaked warlords focus the first volley on Jillian, and without another commander in the field I doubt the Archons would continue the attack at their own peril.

[sihnfahl]

I've played games where the counters of damaged units were turned over to reveal 'damaged' stats, but Afrika Korps just compares total attack value of the attacking stack to total defense value of the defending stack, without regard to whether a unit is damaged or not.

Does that imply a set loss rate on both sides for calculations?
If so, those calculations would be a bit off here; defender loss rate could be higher...

[Blue Stasis]

Perhaps a foolish suggestion, but is there any real guarantee that the archons are aware of the befuddling spell, and not simply making a reasonable accusation in light of Jillian's history? Given Stanley's caster repertoire and the highly suspicious conditions surrounding Zamussels' "escape," it would seem to me to be a rather justified guess rather than a firm declaration that their current warlord is out of her mind, particularly given the archon's seeming familiarity with spells and spellcasting*.

Under this interpretation, Jillian may still be able to reason herself into insubordination, although the nagging suspicion that her questions of allegiance are all down to hocus-pocus will probably follow her until the end of the strip.

*Assuming a thinkagram is a spell, that is.

[SteveMB]

I don't think we have enough information from this comic to say one way or the other if Jillian and Co. are in the same hex as the dwagons. In panel 10 it seems that the Hunters are passing over the beach, the logical boundary between forest and lake hexes and hinting that they have moved into the dwagon hex.

See the map in frame 60/4. Jillian's squadron is apparently coming in from the left, and is (when Stanley declares "She's over the lake! She's one hex away!") over one of the lake hexes on the left edge of the frame. When she flies over the beach and goes over the lake, she is still at least one hex away from the wounded dwagons.

It's unclear whether they are in the same hex as the wounded dwagons when they spot them. We know that Vinny's bats couldn't see what was in the center hex of the donut from any of the adjacent hexes, but Jillian and the Archons might be able to see a bit further than that (particularly in clear terrain and when the target is also airborne).

(Thinking about it, unless Jillian can spot things a bit further away than "in the same hex", her original recon flight would be of such limited use that Ansom probably should have sent Vinny -- it would be somewhat slower, but he'd cover a lot more territory with his bats.)

Perhaps a foolish suggestion, but is there any real guarantee that the archons are aware of the befuddling spell, and not simply making a reasonable accusation in light of Jillian's history?

That's a reasonable theory... if they know about Jillian's history. (Perhaps Ansom decided that it was something they ought to know; perhaps this isn't the first time they've been hired in this situation.)

[sihnfahl]

Perhaps a foolish suggestion, but is there any real guarantee that the archons are aware of the befuddling spell, and not simply making a reasonable accusation in light of Jillian's history?

The archons seem to be caster units; I'd be guessing that the Archon actually DOES see a spell on Jillian. She might not actually know what it does, however.

[plainsfox]

My stupid thought here is "Does hitting those dwagons save Ansom?"

After those dwagons and warlords are gone, Ansom still has to deal with the Dwagon fort dwagons. He's not going far, he's surrounded by dwagons and his troops are wounded.

What happens when a Chief Warlord gets captured or killed?

[fangthane]

Some things...

1. Why are people assuming that the Archons have any idea of the pre-existing dynamic among Ansom's commanders? They're obviously perceptive but depending on the degree of Charlie's knowledge, they may or may not be aware of Jillian's history beyond a single escape, and as long as she makes sense they may be cautious, suspicious even, but not necessarily to the point of gainsaying her. And, ultimately, they appear to be virtually separate self-contained warlords in their own right - not perhaps able to direct other units, but there's a definite impression that they themselves may be able to self-direct in combat or in other functions. Though, that may simply be the "AI" in evidence.

2. "Or is it that spell on you?" This indicates not that there's a suspicion of a spell, but that the italics drive emphasis - "that spell, which I've just this moment noticed; could that be the source of your assurance?" Jaclyn knows there's a spell, but not what it does apparently. Enough to be suspicious, but if it's explained simply enough (makes me a more effective leader/fighter/whatever) and accepted, no worries. Though, of course, it may get mentioned to Ansom at some point in any case if the Archons survive.

3. I can see Jillian easily rationalising a non-attack. Especially without Webinar and Dora mounted on two of the gwiffins as was probably Ansom's intent for the assault. Odds are that in order to take down the 3 Warlords, she needs to target a minimum of 3 separate attacks and retreats, using up 3-6 move for each involved unit. Odds are that she can anticipate being the target of at least two of those retaliatory strikes, possibly the primary target of all 3 (which might lead to death/capture and be something against which she can argue) None of her contingent has a mathemantic bracer so if she puts it in the right terms, she's got potential justification to call an assault too risky.

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4. If I were Parson, I'd have seeded the wounded dwagons all through my forces given their ending disposition. One of the dwagons in each 'ring' location would be heavily wounded, possibly more in the 'strong' stack Jillian was planning to punch (amusingly, that actually would have been a great plan in my world). Assuming he's a Perfect warlord, not merely a pretty capable one, he should have a contingency in that direction; so the girls may have a bit tougher time than Ansom anticipates...

5. Therefore, Jillian may well attack and be taken down by the first warlock, or she may anticipate the possibility and argue more strongly for her "pull Ansom's jewels from the fire" plan.

6. Without Webinar and Dora to run offset assaults (as may have been Ansom's presumption and failure to make explicit) the assault may be able to succeed at taking down the warlords, at the cost of all 3 archons. Win/win. Cripples the dwagon assault force in terms of siege reduction, leaves the force largely intact for next turn in any case, prevents them from reporting to Ansom that Jillian has a spell on her and allowing him (or Webinar/Dora) to make the connection as to its nature.

[sihnfahl]

What happens when a Chief Warlord gets captured or killed?

We already know this. Manpower The Temporary was Stanley's last (and presumably Chief at the time) Warlord until he got croaked at the Battle of Warchalking. Stanley just had to find a new chief warlord.

[ag30476]

My stupid thought here is "Does hitting those dwagons save Ansom?"

After those dwagons and warlords are gone, Ansom still has to deal with the Dwagon fort dwagons. He's not going far, he's surrounded by dwagons and his troops are wounded.

Previously the dwagons had used hit and run tactics, selectively engaging only the seige units in a hex then withdrawing. Fresh dwagons were cycled as dwagons got injured.

But presumably some dwagons will be lost in taking out the woodsy elves and gumps (or Webinar's flyers). Effectively, you're trading dwagons to take out Anson and the forest units. That might not be worth it given that the coalition started with 6 times the force it needed to take Gobwin Knob.

[Zeku]

I specified that Ansom's least stupid strategy would be to join with Jillian while striking the wounded dwagons several comics back, and I believe I reiterated it once he was in the center of the quantum hex, and we knew that he had enough move to pass through the strong hex to get back to the column.

So yeah, it's been 'discussed.'

[jindra34]

Previously the dwagons had used hit and run tactics, selectively engaging only the seige units in a hex then withdrawing. Fresh dwagons were cycled as dwagons got injured.

But presumably some dwagons will be lost in taking out the woodsy elves and gumps (or Webinar's flyers). Effectively, your trading dwagons to take out Anson and the forest units. That might not be worth it given that the coalition started with 6 times the force it needed to take Gobwin Knob.

its 4 times the force needed to take Gobwin Knob... not 6 times... but still i doubt the Forest squad is 3/4 the force of the assault force.

[SteveMB]

2. "Or is it that spell on you?" This indicates not that there's a suspicion of a spell, but that the italics drive emphasis - "that spell, which I've just this moment noticed; could that be the source of your assurance?" Jaclyn knows there's a spell, but not what it does apparently. Enough to be suspicious, but if it's explained simply enough (makes me a more effective leader/fighter/whatever) and accepted, no worries. Though, of course, it may get mentioned to Ansom at some point in any case if the Archons survive.

Of course, there may be a "nominal fee" for disclosing such information.

(I am reminded of the information-selling "Outsiders" in Larry Niven's "Known Space" stories. One of the basic problems of their trade is how to reveal enough to interest the client without giving away what they're trying to sell.)

its 4 times the force needed to take Gobwin Knob... not 6 times... but still i doubt the Forest squad is 3/4 the force of the assault force.

The issue is that the overall situation makes it inadvisable for Stanley's side to trade casualties for casualties. Ansom (and the Arkenpliers) would be an attractive target if they can selectively engage him -- however, if they lose the uncroaked warlords this turn, they can't do that, and must instead keep fighting until the entire sortie force is defeated (which probably means considerable dwagon casualties, given that they've already taken out three dwagons and still had sufficient force to take on the wounded ones if they had in fact been there).

To be sure, Stanley's fixation on getting the Arkenpliers may lead him to try it anyway.

[ag30476]

its 4 times the force needed to take Gobwin Knob... not 6 times... but still i doubt the Forest squad is 3/4 the force of the assault force.

Oops ... yeah 4 times the force ... sorry about that. The forest squad is not 3/4 the force of the assault force. It's hard to say how big it is but I would say less than 1/4.

And it's hard to see what the cost benefit is especially since we don't know unit strengths and many things are up in the air. But if Jillian does not take out the uncroaked warlords and does not make it back to Ansom and Ansom stays with the forest units, then it might be worth it for Parson to attack and take out Ansom. But if the uncroaked warlords are elminated or Ansom makes it to the safety of the column then it might not be worth it to exchange some dwagons to take out the forest units.

Parson seemed ready to suggest something else other than attacking the Ansom in the pliers before he was interrupted by Ansom's move to the center hex and the reference to veiled troops...

[plainsfox]

We already know this. Manpower The Temporary was Stanley's last (and presumably Chief at the time) Warlord until he got croaked at the Battle of Warchalking. Stanley just had to find a new chief warlord.

Ahh...but here we have several problems.

1) Ansom leads the Jetstone forces. With their loss, who would things devolve to? Webinar? Dora?

2) Ansom leads the Coalition. How would they select another leader? How do the members of the Coalition react to the new Warlord?

[sihnfahl]

1) Ansom leads the Jetstone forces. With their loss, who would things devolve to? Webinar? Dora?

Whichever warlord they have on hand who has the leadership qualities King Slately wants. If you went with raw stats, Webinar (of those we know).

Vinny isn't Jetstone, and the only two other Jetstone Warlords we've been introduced to are Webinar and Dora; Webinar's a level 5, Dora's a 2. Doesn't preclude someone of a higher level being out there.

2) Ansom leads the Coalition. How would they select another leader? How do the members of the Coalition react to the new Warlord?

Well, this seems to be a Jetstone effort; without Ansom, certain Alliance members may just throw up their hands and go home. After all, Ansom said he preferred that Stanley would send his forces out into the open. Well, Stanley did. And the Alliance lost over half their siege and the Chief Warlord of Jetstone. How much more could Jetstone be wrong about...

[MedPig]

"Cmon, it'll be fun." Famous last words.

Ranks right up there with "Hold my beer and watch this..."

(Outcome is usually messy)

[preserver3]

So, while it looks like things are booped, they really aren't....


Webinar doesn't have enough move to join the attack.
Zamussels is a double agent who cannot fight in this battle

Only two other major flying units can get here to fight....

End result is that the Hunt is a failure....

[Blayze]

This comic tells us one extremely important detail...

...There's French in Erfworld. And where there's French, there's people from France to speak it. And where there's people from France, there's France itself. Or possibly Canada, seeing how France in Erfworld would have been the weakest player, the one who always picks the empire that has to rely on alliances, even in multiplayer games. Y'know, the one everybody rushes at the start for the free tech from pillaging.

Which means that French in Erfworld may be some form of almost-dead language. Or it may mean that the Erf-Frenchies are cowering behind a stronger, more important Erf-country...

...Like Luxembourg.

[TheOtherMC]

This comic tells us one extremely important detail...

...There's French in Erfworld. And where there's French, there's people from France to speak it. And where there's people from France, there's France itself. Or possibly Canada, seeing how France in Erfworld would have been the weakest player, the one who always picks the empire that has to rely on alliances, even in multiplayer games. Y'know, the one everybody rushes at the start for the free tech from pillaging.

Which means that French in Erfworld may be some form of almost-dead language. Or it may mean that the Erf-Frenchies are cowering behind a stronger, more important Erf-country...

...Like Luxembourg.

Blayze.....you never cease to scare me with your immaculate logic.....

[Krellen]

Would you throw the book on the floor in disgust, declare that NO WAY could Harry find a way out of getting his soul eaten and that it must be Rowling's worst decision ever... and that, what, the next 400 pages (plus the 2 books after that) are just full of recipes?

No, because Rowling made the wise decision to have established two books ago that Dementors could be fought, and that Harry was, remarkably for his age, able to conjure the spell that combats them.

We have no established device whereby Parson can pull his boops from a vice should he cost Stanley half of his Dragon Corps this turn.

[Halfpunch]

No, because Rowling made the wise decision to have established two books ago that Dementors could be fought, and that Harry was, remarkably for his age, able to conjure the spell that combats them.

We have no established device whereby Parson can pull his boops from a vice should he cost Stanley half of his Dragon Corps this turn.

The dwagons are still there. There isn't enough information to decide conclusively if Jillian and Co. are capable of hurting/denting/decimating the entire stack. It's OK to jump to conclusions (we all do) but please don't berate the author for strips he hasn't yet, and may never write.

**EDITED to add the following**
I can see your point on plot mechanisms and it is a valid observation, I just think this thread is better served with (admittedly wild) speculation as to what could happen, not what should have happened, especially given that there is no guarantee that any (more) dwagons will die this turn.

[JazzManJim]

[*]Dwagons are worth a lot of points. Even split between three archons, four warlords and four gwiffons, the archons could expect to level from their share of the XP from croaking six dwagons.

They're worth more than that. The dwagons Jillian was talking about weren't the 19 over the lake, but the strongest stack in the Pincers. She wasn't expecting to find the Lake Stack until the last frame of the comic.

That means that a part of one dwagon would be enough to level the Archons, since Jillian wasn't expecting to meet more than four in any hex.