Villainous Competition XX​II: I Am The Night!

[Thurbane]

Three builds judged, will start on the fourth tomorrow. Sorry this is taking longer than usual, I've failed a Fort save against some sort of horrible plague over the last few days.

No problem, take the time you need.

My wife was off work for a week not long ago, some nasty bugs going around...hope you feel better soon.

[daremetoidareyo]

You know, I would love to see this, because it would fit perfectly in my campaign. Would you be willing to share the build?

Swap out the 1 and 3 hd feats with improved unarmed strike and improved grapple. The spellstitched template isn't all that great due to the limitation on what schools you have access to, so the dark template is a better option to boost hiding and moving silently. The swarm shifter template is a great option (undead beatle or undead sand) gives you the ability to escape from melee to spawn your skin kitelings.

Deadly hunter druidic avenger with skilled city dweller to trade ride for tumble. Battle jump and close quarter fighting are the next two feats (level 6-9)to take and once you make it to druid 4, switch to rogue and start taking as much slight of hand as possible to get mosquito's bite skill trick. You want magic fang, jaws of the moray, and mountain stance as spells. Mosquito's bite allows you get away with being unnoticed for a single round. This works best with the dark template's HiPS.

Jaws of the moray + close quarter fighting allows you to bite and cling onto someone trying to help those you've imbedded yourself to. With favored enemy human, and magic fang, you should be able to get 4 charisma drained on the first round on a human. With three rogue levels, you should be able to get maiming strike to deal more charisma damage on a sneak attack. Battle jump allows you to act as a medium creature in an initial grapple. Ideally, you should be able to multiply like crazy in a human urban environment.

The question is, do the skin kites that you birth come with your templates?

[Nodsiu]

The question is, do the skin kites that you birth come with your templates?

The RAW only says 'skin kite'. Up to DMs I guess.

[Telonius]

All right, judging! Thanks to everybody for submitting your builds! I hope my judging does them justice. I am getting over an illness so I’m expecting I’ve misinterpreted at least a few obvious things – send any disputes on to the Supreme Chancellor and I’ll be happy to consider them.

I will say that this group has some of the strongest builds I’ve ever judged. It was extremely close at the top end.


Arukōru no Honō
Total: 13.25

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Originality: 4.5

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Elemental Ninja! As my question before the judging probably tipped off, there were a few mechanical parts of this one that I hadn’t been aware of. Using a “unique ability” from DMG2 was pretty unexpected; using two, very much so. I’ve been seeing more of these “army of one” sorts of builds recently, but this one manages to keep its own character.

Elegance: 2.0

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The levels are simple and make sense. However, there’s a major problem in the build, which is pretty irreparable. Small Elemental only advances to 3HD. Unfortunately this pretty much kills the build. To get up to 21 HD (which is what you need for the Epic Destiny/ Fission trick), you’d need to make it a Greater Fire Elemental, which is Huge (and starting out at CR9). That would make it almost impossible to pull off the kill/replace combination that’s his shtick. I don’t think that just ignoring the advancement line is as much of an option here, since for elementals specifically there’s a clear range of hit dice to type of elemental. Since this throws the entire build off, and would require a complete rework to fix it, I have to give this a big penalty. -3 points.
The Fission trick can work (assuming Epic Destiny is online), with a liberal interpretation of which “you” gets resurrected. But do note:
“If you die, your duplicate remains in existence, and is for all intents you, but with two negative levels. (Once the duration expires, one of the negative levels immediately converts to one lost level; the other negative level can be removed by standard means).”
Each of the duplicates would require a Restoration, or a big Fortitude check to avoid the negative level becoming permanent. So all the duplicates would be (at best) 1 level behind the original.
This is more for flavor, but I did look into whether or not Evil Weather was actually on a class list (and a valid target for Traitor).
“Corrupt spells are specific to no character class. Furthermore, they aren’t inherently divine or arcane spells; a divine caster casting a corrupt spell casts it as a divine spell, and an arcane caster casts it as an arcane spell.”
A little ambiguous, but I think it’s close enough to be a “yes” (and no points off). Also slightly questionable on Assassin’s Stance qualifying you for Craven, but not raising too much of an eyebrow at that.

Competence:

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Decently stealthy, though it’s hampered by a relatively low number of skill points and a class skill list unfortunately lacking in Bluff and Disguise for the first 20 hit dice, and only has a +5 by the end. Minor Change Shape can be helpful, but he’s going to need more help than a +10 if he’s going to be replacing anybody other than friendless loners for more than a short time. Remember that people get a new check each hour to spot the disguise. Unless you can guarantee a result of 31 higher than the target’s intimate companions, eventually somebody they know and care about is going to see through the disguise.
As far as assassination goes, Arukoru seems capable, if the target doesn’t know it’s coming; and being a Fire Elemental gives a great way of disposing of bodies immediately.
One thing that I can see really cramping Arukoru’s style would be when/if the team figures out that there’s shapechanging involved. Discern Shapechanger from Spell Compendium is only a level 2 spell, but it can really throw a monkeywrench into any kind of Mystique shenanigans, ninja or not. There are a number of ways to foil divinations, but you’d need to take some sort of precaution against it.
I’m going to leave off my score here until after Memorable Villainy.

Memorable Villainy: 3.0

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This is a really tricky one to judge for me. On the one hand, I am completely digging the creepy ninja factor here. The idea of the town baker or cabbage salesman or something, suddenly turning on the party, and giving a spooky, “We are everywhere!” warning as he attacks them is awesome. But on the other hand, I don’t think that setting the players up against a literally-unbeatable foe is “memorable” in a good way. Leaving aside the advancement issue, the trick that makes the Fission duplicates work at all means that no matter what the players do, the entire army is back the next day, while the players have expended resources trying to fight them. While that might be okay for a Cthulhu style campaign, it’s not going to fit your typical heroic adventure. I can really see the players being upset at lack of agency, or calling DM BS. This is not the sort of enemy my players would figure out how to beat, and is not something I’d spring on them.
Since I’m split down the middle, 1 or 5, the score will be too. 3.0.

Back to Competence: 3.75

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For a similar reason, I’m split down the middle on competence. Arukoru has several weaknesses that the team can really capitalize on. Discern Shapeshifter in particular can almost trivialize the role he’s supposed to play, and his Disguise check needs more help for what he’s supposed to do. But at the same time he’s basically undefeatable because of the Epic Destiny trick; the guy just won’t die. I’ll split the score, 2.5 or 5, to get 3.75.

Xihu Ayame
Total: 16.0

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Originality: 4.5

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Snake Ninja! I was expecting some Rokugan, but hadn’t expected a Naga. Very nice job in weaving it in with the plot, too. Totemist was not something I’d expected to see.
I think Xihu wins the Vizzini Award for being the only entry that actually contains levels in the Ninja base class.

Elegance: 2.5

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5 base classes of 3 levels or less, two templates, and one full 6-level prestige class. Everything does seem to be thematically linked, but this is not a “pretty” build by any stretch. Starting at 2.5.
I think you’ve misread the Akutsukai entry – the description of Undead there isn’t meant to be an exhaustive list of all of the undead characteristics, just a highlight of its immunities. Unfortunately it still does lack a Constitution score, just like a regular undead. Rokugan doesn’t change any of the regular Undead type information. All the Shadowlands subtype does is give immunity to Shadowlands Taint and vulnerability to Rokugan special materials like jade and crystal (p. 143). This doesn’t kill the build; this would be easily recoverable by switching out Bonus Essentia for Undead Meldshaper. (Fortunately your Wisdom is fairly high). But I will take a small penalty for it. -0.25
Normally I’d look a little sidelong at getting the Shadow template as an acquired template, but it makes total sense to get it along with the Akutsukai template.
Score: 2.25

Competence: 4.5

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Xihu is very good at what she does. Very nice ambushing skills, infiltration is terrific thanks to alternate form and some good skill selection. You manage to get the BAB up to 16 by 20th, getting that important extra attack. Very nice stats, amazing saves, lots of immunities from being Undead. Lots of mobility from all of your move-through-shadows stuff.
It does still have the “discern shapechanger” problem, though if we’re assuming a Rokugan environment that might not be as important.

Memorable Villainy: 4.5

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This has some solid potential to be a recurring character. The background story seems pretty solidly placed in Rokugan for all of the Shadowlands fluff. If you’re attempting to use her outside of that, you’d have to work a bit harder to establish who she is and why she’s attacking. (“Because she’s from the Shadowlands” makes perfect sense for Rokugan and says a lot about her background and motivation; but that doesn’t necessarily translate so easily into other settings). This is a very hands-on bad guy, and can cause a lot of mayhem directly. Score: 4.5.

Akuza
Total: 17.5

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Originality: 3.5

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Were-Ninja! I did not see that one coming. Nothing too fancy mechanically, otherwise.

Elegance: 5.0

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Two templates, but they’re character-defining. One Short Monk dip, straight into Assassin. Short and sweet. No rules weirdness, no questionable rulings.

Competence: 5.0

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Very much agreed on the CR-issue; this is probably deadlier-per-CR than That Crab. The terrifying thing is that it could have been a whole lot worse. First, as mentioned in the build, no pregenned feats were changed in the creation of this monstrosity. Offhand I can think of about fifty more horrible things than “Toughness X2” to assign.
Second, Legendary Tigers can be advanced to 48 HD. A Were-critter of that HD that bit you – assuming there was any “you” left afterwards – would have resulted in 21 more HD and 7 more feats but the same +6 CR per the Lycanthrope entry. Let that sink in.
This thing is incredibly powerful out the gate without even really trying.

Memorable Villainy: 4.0

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If you hadn’t made crystal clear this is TO, I’d have split the score for being massively overpowered against anything a typical group would reasonably be expecting. As it is, this sounds like a really fun villain to play against in an ultra-high-powered environment. Not much characterization there; this guy is a beast, and he’s really good at that.

Clan of the Poisonous Arrow Frog
Total: 13.5

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Originality: 4.0

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Frog Ninja! Neraph is not something I expected, nor was Exemplar. I really like turning the whole ninja concept on its head, with a flashy recruitment display. The centerpiece of the build is something I’d expected though.

Elegance: 4.5

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Two non-dipped base classes, a Prestige Class taken to half, and another taken almost all the way. The progression is logical and thematic. Starting out with a 5.
There is one major problem with the character: Ninja Spy requires the Evasion class ability, and none of your classes give that. You’ve kind of lucked out in that you have four levels of Incarnate – just enough to keep Impulse Boots bound to your Feet chakra at all times; so yes, you can technically qualify with the build as-is. But this is a very dangerous proposition, as a single Dispel Magic or antimagic zone can take away half your abilities. (It also very much limits your versatility, since you have only one chakra bind available). Any of the other quick ways of getting Evasion as an actual class feature involve at minimum two-level dips. Anyway, it’s a major mechanical problem at the build’s thematic heart that you didn’t notice, even if it’s somewhat fixable. Taking off half a point.

Total: 4.5.
Competence: 2.0

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This seems to be a very low-damage build. You’re skulking around in the shadows, but don’t have a high sneak attack to take advantage of it. No Craven, no TWF. Maiming Strike doesn’t turn on until 18th level. Strength of 10 means you’re going to be doing base weapon damage for most purposes.
The class does Sneak very well, and when Exemplar turns on you’re going to be a terrific Ninja recruiter. It does seem like it’s supposed to be a strike-from-the-shadows character, though; and it just can’t pull that off with damage that low.

Total: 2.0
Memorable Villainy: 3.0

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This guy just does not seem to pose much of a direct threat to a party. I think he’d be best used in something like a “Pursue the escaping villain” sort of adventure. He’s very sneaky and a rabble-rouser. If you use him like that, it could work. I’m picturing something like the team following him into the marketplace, and him using all kinds of terrain to his advantage, convincing shopkeepers to thwart the team, that sort of thing. If they do manage to corner him, the combat is going to be anticlimactic. Conservation of ninjutsu does not apply here; he’s weakest on his own.

Ickelos
Total: 19.0

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Originality: 5.0.

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Psychic boogeyman ninja. Hivenest creature is one that I’ve only seen used a few times, and I like its inclusion here. Gruesome Lurker is another rarely-seen monster that works perfectly. Very nice spot on Avenging Executioner’s compatibility with the theme. Ninja certainly wield fear, and this achieves that wonderfully. I really like how the fear abilities from Avenging Executioner and Ghost-Faced Killer support each other mechanically; I don’t think I’ve seen that done before.

Elegance: 4.75

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The progression is smooth, you qualify for your PrCs, only one dip class (Warblade) – understandable since PrCs without a class beforehand can look a little weird. Everything fits in mechanically and thematically, and I can’t detect any rules problems. The CR from the swarm plus the baddie equalizes at 13, so nothing strange there.
One minor item: Martial Stance requires that you already know a maneuver from the school you’re learning. You would need to have a Shadow Hand maneuver on your list before you can take Assassin’s Stance. Not a critical error, and nothing in the build really depends on it, but taking off -0.25.

Competence 4.5

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This is a nasty little shadow-striker that has some very nice Fear-based knockon abilities. A big problem I can see is that immunity to Fear and mind-affecting effects is something that’s relatively easy to get. However, Ickelos has enough offensive firepower to pose some kind of a threat even if the party is immune. Shadow Jump gives him some excellent mobility options, as well as a “Get me out of here” button if things really go badly.
Overall, this guy can generally do what he’s supposed to, and has a few tricks in case that doesn’t work. 4.5.

Memorable Villainy: 4.75

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I think this one slightly depends on how soon in the campaign you introduce him. At lower levels especially, before the party gets access to a lot of fear-defeating effects, he’s going to be incredible. If the first they’re encountering him is around level 15, you could lose a lot of the creepy factor since the party’s likely to be immune to Fear. The amount of damage he can pump out – as well as his mobility and ability to escape – can cover for it to an extent. This is a solid villain, with a great motivation and a good storyline. This is something I’d definitely spring on my party. 4.75.

Soratoka
Total: 18.25

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Originality: 3.5

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Void Ninja! Very nice use of the base creature, but not much new or surprising otherwise. Ninja Spy, Rogue, and Assassin were things I’d expected.
3.05

Elegance: 4.75

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Simple build, no questionable qualifications. The Swordsage level does give a decent power boost, but feels a little bit tacked-on. 4.75 to start.
Very minor point – at CR 12, you’re at 13 hd. Half, rounded down, is 6; you’re already at your maximum number of Skill Tricks known. You would need to put off Walk the Walls until the next level. -0.25.
4.5.

Competence: 5.0

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This guy knows what he’s doing and can get it done. Super-stealthy, super-deadly, this is a Ninja’s ninja.
5.0.

Memorable Villainy: 5.0

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You could build an entire campaign around this enemy. Clear goals, good characterization, built-in mystery. I like it a lot.

Mizu-no-yoki
Total: 16.0

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Originality: 3.5

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Robot ninja! I’m kind of digging the construct flavor, and the race certainly fits the theme. Bonus: we can show it exploding on Saturday Morning Cartoons without offending the censors. Nice use of Improved Critical and Telling Blow on an unusually high-threat-range weapon. Nothing else mechanically out of the ordinary, though; seems a standard-issue Ninja with a class I’d have expected to see.

Elegance: 4.5

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Short class progression into a fully-completed Prestige Class. You qualify for everything you take. Starting out with a 5.0.
Unfortunately Ninja of the Crescent Moon is one of the most severe cases of nerfing-through-errata that Wizards ever inflicted. This otherwise-wonderful prestige class went from full-BAB, all good saves, to 3/4 BAB, Good Reflex Save. The good news is that this doesn’t disqualify you from any of your feats or features. The bad news is that only your Reflex Save column is correct. Taking off -0.5 points here. If it had disqualified any features, that would have been a bigger penalty. Total, 4.5.

Competence: 4.0

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Despite the lower BAB and saves, this is still a dangerous foe. He’s all about mobility, quick strikes, and sneaking around. With a massive Dex, Wis to AC, and the monk’s AC bonus, it’s going to be very hard to hit. That, plus its spell resistance, shores up its weakness to fire and cold.
One thing that is lacking a bit is infiltration skills. No Disguise or Bluff. If he’s going to be pretending to be a person, somebody else in his organization is going to have to dress him up. Lack of healing is going to be a problem as well. He might want an artificer or wizard minion ready with a Repair spell just in case.
That said, he does what he does very well. I’m going to call this a 4.0.

Memorable Villainy: 4.0

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A nimblewright is created for someone, so he’s not the big bad. He’s got the style and tactics to be a great dragon, though. A bit more on the personality side would have made this really memorable. I think the party would be very interested to see who’s playing Kraang to this Shredder.
4.0

Ga zi de erzi
Total Score: 19.5

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Originality: 5.0

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Freaky what in the world is that ninja! You’ve managed to combine several things that I hadn’t expected into a single build: Tauric template, Cloistered Cleric, Chameleon, doppelgangers, a seldom-used Epic Destiny, and six-legged gravity-controlling blue cats.

Elegance: 5.0

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A couple templates, but everything’s legal. You qualify for everything you take, you finish out a prestige class. Full marks.

Competence: 4.75

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It may be because it’s late, but I can’t spot any obvious weaknesses here. This is a very versatile, mobile combatant that has extremely good stealth abilities, access to spells, high stats, very good saves, and lots of unique tricks that the party will not be expecting. He can do what he’s supposed to do and has a bagful of tricks besides. I was particularly impressed by Mask of Gentility; I’d forgotten Exemplars of Evil had a few nice feats in it. Discern Shapechanger is going to be a problem, but with magical backup you have more ways to subvert it.

Memorable Villainy: 4.75
Ga Zi is a villain with a clear motivation in his backstory. He can function either as the BBEG himself, or as a recurring villain. This is the sort of enemy any party will find satisfaction in defeating.
I don’t think anybody who encounters Ga zi in his true form is ever going to forget it; the visual is just plain bizarre. I would think the only real danger is for the reveal to become so much of an out-of-left-field, “big lipped alligator moment” (caution, TV Tropes link) that it could really spoil the mood. I’d strongly suggest putting some clues around that there’s something seriously bizarre in store. (Maybe shed some blue fur, or encounter another Gravbeast somewhere in the adventure).

[Baby Gary]

just want to point out that Ickelos had no competence entry

[Korahir]

Thanks Telonius for judging!

[Inevitability]

First dispute!

Thanks for the judging, Telonius.

One dispute with your judging: the relevant rule for the skill tricks is as follows (bolding mine):

You can’t learn more than one skill trick at any given level, and your total skill tricks cannot exceed one-half your character level (rounded up).

Other than that, no issues, and again, thanks.

I would just ask your starting point for originality, though. I freely accept the classes were anticipated, but is Void Walker worth any kind of bonus? I can honestly say I've never seen the creature used in a competition, and barely heard of it mentioned at all.

[Inevitability]

And another!

Okay. Little short on time here, so there will probably be more than one dispute, so let me just address some of your major points.

Spoiler: Advancement stuff

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Small Elemental only advances to 3HD. Unfortunately this pretty much kills the build. To get up to 21 HD (which is what you need for the Epic Destiny/ Fission trick), you’d need to make it a Greater Fire Elemental, which is Huge (and starting out at CR9). That would make it almost impossible to pull off the kill/replace combination that’s his shtick. I don’t think that just ignoring the advancement line is as much of an option here, since for elementals specifically there’s a clear range of hit dice to type of elemental.

This would be correct but for this piece of rules text.

The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.)

Therefore, Arukōru's advancement is completely legal. It's not like a Small fire elemental has to automatically become Medium (and so on) when it passes 3 HD. Yeah, it says exceptions are rare but I think Arukōru is a pretty exceptional elemental. In fact, that would go for any villain in this contest, but it's particularly relevant here.

Spoiler: Fission stuff

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The Fission trick can work (assuming Epic Destiny is online), with a liberal interpretation of which “you” gets resurrected. But do note:
“If you die, your duplicate remains in existence, and is for all intents you, but with two negative levels. (Once the duration expires, one of the negative levels immediately converts to one lost level; the other negative level can be removed by standard means).”
Each of the duplicates would require a Restoration, or a big Fortitude check to avoid the negative level becoming permanent. So all the duplicates would be (at best) 1 level behind the original.

I did in fact think of this while making the build. I'm sorry I wasn't able to explain the mechanics for getting around it in the entry, but, as I said, I haven't had a lot of free time lately.

Arukōru has the Enduring and Lasting Life feats.

Whenever you would gain a negative level, you can ignore the penalties and other ill effects associated with that negative level for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution bonus

More than enough time for a duplicate to retain all its HD and spawn another duplicate to kill it off. The duplicate would then resurrect with no negative levels as per normal.

If Arukōru decides to be done with duplication for the day, all the final duplicate needs to do is use Lasting Life.

Once per round as a standard action, you can attempt to remove a negative level from yourself by attempting a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 attacker's HD + attacker's Cha modifier). If the saving throw succeeds, the negative level goes away. You make a separate saving throw for each negative level you have gained. If the save fails, you retain the negative level, but you can try again next round to remove it.

Since Fission lasts 1 round/level and any Arukōru performing this operation has at least 21 levels, there is ample time for the removal of negative levels, and even if that fails (unlikely, as it can be attempted every round) the non-negative leveled Arukōrus will appear by sunrise and be able to carry on. Or if they're not doing that, just give the last duplicate some breathing space to get that lost HD back. Or not. It doesn't really have to. It's not a problem for this villain.

Wow. That was pretty long and there are still some other things I have to get to. Thanks for judging though, I know especially a build like this filled with weird little rules must be difficult to judge.

[Telonius]

just want to point out that Ickelos had no competence entry

Thanks! Victim of formatting, fixed now. Hopefully I can get to the disputes this evening.

[Inevitability]

And yet another dispute.

Thanks for the judging
Two things, a clarification and a dispute

Spoiler: Competence

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Competence
Xihu is very good at what she does. Very nice ambushing skills, infiltration is terrific thanks to alternate form and some good skill selection. You manage to get the BAB up to 16 by 20th, getting that important extra attack. Very nice stats, amazing saves, lots of immunities from being Undead. Lots of mobility from all of your move-through-shadows stuff.

I feel a little bad because I hesitated a bit bringing this up. I added an extra column to the table for HD due to the templates. Ayame actually only has a BAB of 9 at CR 20, and an HD of 16.

Spoiler: Elegance

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Elegance:
I think you’ve misread the Akutsukai entry – the description of Undead there isn’t meant to be an exhaustive list of all of the undead characteristics, just a highlight of its immunities. Unfortunately it still does lack a Constitution score, just like a regular undead. Rokugan doesn’t change any of the regular Undead type information. All the Shadowlands subtype does is give immunity to Shadowlands Taint and vulnerability to Rokugan special materials like jade and crystal (p. 143). This doesn’t kill the build; this would be easily recoverable by switching out Bonus Essentia for Undead Meldshaper. (Fortunately your Wisdom is fairly high). But I will take a small penalty for it. -0.25
Normally I’d look a little sidelong at getting the Shadow template as an acquired template, but it makes total sense to get it along with the Akutsukai template.
Score: 2.25

Definitely not a pretty build. :)
I thought she would lose her Constitution score originally as well. However, if you look at the Akutenshi template on page 242 I believe I've found a reason to believe she keeps it. Akutenshi is listed directly after Akutsukai, and can only be applied to an Akutsukai character. It does not mention anywhere a change to type or ability scores. An ability it grants called 'Breath of Taint' has a Difficulty Class made up of (10 + 1/2 the Akutenshi's HAD + the Akutenshi's Constitution modifier.
The Akutsukai template also does not mention any change to ability scores or even a change in HD like normal Undead (I believe because they are a unique Campaign-specific Undead). 'Breath of Taint' couldn't even exist unless it's Constitution score was never lost in the first place. Akutsukai 'must' still posses one.
(My understanding was that if a special ability was based on an ability score it no longer had,( i.e. Str, Con, Int) that ability no longer existed)

Personally, I believe Ayame would be better off if her HD changed to d12's and she had Undead Meldshaper. I just can't justify it with this specific template.
She has most of the immunities without the primary drawback of no Con score, though for her that would be a benefit.
It may very well be a rules disfunction of some kind. However, I checked the errata beforehand and no mention was made that I could find.

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I'm curious, did I discover something new? :D

[Korahir]

Just an idea because the meme popped up in a thread again: how about a "this is not even my final form!" theme for a future round? It could be interesting to not only design a BBEG but also showcase how the multistaged fight would take place.

[Inevitability]

Just an idea because the meme popped up in a thread again: how about a "this is not even my final form!" theme for a future round? It could be interesting to not only design a BBEG but also showcase how the multistaged fight would take place.

I like this idea.

[danielxcutter]

I like this idea.

Same. Still awaiting that multi-headed round, but this could be fun too.

[PrismCat21]

Same. Still awaiting that multi-headed round, but this could be fun too.

Spoiler: relevant image

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[Technetium43]

Spoiler: relevant image

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So... both 'this is not my final form' and 'multi-headed'. Do you want Psaro? Because this is how you get Psaro.

[Baby Gary]

I still think that a joker-esc round would be really cool. I would love to make a crazy murderous maniac. "The last Joke" could be a fitting title or "The Last Laugh"

[Buufreak]

I still think that a joker-esc round would be really cool. I would love to make a crazy murderous maniac. "The last Joke" could be a fitting title or "The Last Laugh"

Please. Obvious, "He who laughs last" is more traditional.

[Telonius]

First dispute!

Sarotoka - Yep, those are some of those "obvious" things I was talking about missing. Going in and adjusting the scores now.

[Telonius]

And another!

Arukoro - Ah, didn't catch that on the level-behind thing. I hadn't taken any points off for that, so no worries there.

Have to disagree on the legality of the advancement though. In the confines of the contest, using that is the sort of thing that can put builds on very unequal ground. Advancement is one of those things that I think really has to be limited to what's in the table. Score stands.

[Telonius]

And yet another dispute.

For Ayame - ah, I do see that now on the Con score issue. That's a very weird bit in the rules; could just be an editing error, but it could indicate the ruling you went with. Since it's such a weird wording, I'll edge on your side and take away the .25 penalty fixing now.

Thanks for pointing out the bit in competence - while that does make it significantly less hard hitting than I originally thought, I don't think it puts too much of a dent in the overall power. I'll let the score stand.

[Inevitability]

Arukoro - Ah, didn't catch that on the level-behind thing. I hadn't taken any points off for that, so no worries there.

Have to disagree on the legality of the advancement though. In the confines of the contest, using that is the sort of thing that can put builds on very unequal ground. Advancement is one of those things that I think really has to be limited to what's in the table. Score stands.

Dispute reply.

This really isn't fair. I have provided a quote that proves the advancement in my build is legal. You can't disagree with that, it is part of the D&D 3.5 rules everyone in this competition uses to make their builds, and furthermore, it is a core rule, as opposed to some obscure variant rule in a rarely-used supplement. Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know judges should follow those rules as well. You can't simply decide that a rule is illegal because you don't like it.

As for being on unequal grounds, as you say yourself, this is a contest, and part of this contest is making our villains as optimized and powerful as possible. If I happened to discover a rule that helps me do this, I don't see why that should be penalized. I am using the same set of rules as everyone else. If others chose not to take advantage of this rule or were not aware of it, that isn't my fault.

As for sticking to the table, as official errata states, text trumps table. The table entry that limits creatures' HD advancement to a certain amount is superseded by the rules text that states that is not an absolute limit. Again, the rules support my build's advancement.

At the end of the day, you thought my build was illegal. I showed you a 100% legitimate rules quote that disproved that, and yet you dismissed it again as illegal. I'm sure you can see why I have a problem with that.

[Inevitability]

The endless debate of judge and chef, continued.

There are some other things I felt weren't considered in your judging.

Spoiler: Stealth stuff

Show

Firstly, the Disguise thing. Arukoru gets only the +10 from Minor Change Shape, true, but if he uses Wild Shape in the process as well, which is not a stretch since it might give a better base to work from for most human disguises (for example, it's probably easier to go from 'baboon' rather than 'fire elemental' to 'human'). I even pointed this out in the entry. Intimate companions also don't have as much advantage as normal due to Assume Quirk, and as I also mentioned, Arukoru's first choice of targets are those who would not have many intimate companions in the first place, or be in a position to facilitate rapid replacement of intimates.

Discern Shapechanger is not as much of a problem as you think it is. Partly due to the fact that Arukoru prioritizes the replacement of people who are not that likely to be noticed or too powerful for PCs to have easy access to them for a scan. Even animal (and possibly vermin or magical beast) disguises are possible. Then there is the possibility of more than one Arukoru being at large. Once the PCs catch one shapeshifter, they might let their guard down. Also, once Arukoru has a disguise in place, technically he doesn't need to use magic to keep it up, as it is the initial disguise check that matters for a particular disguise. So, after finishing the disguise, he can deactivate Minor Change Shape and Wild Shape, which means that anyone scanning him will merely detect that he is a shapechanger, but there would be no indication that he is not what he is disguised as, so it's not necessarily a giveaway. I mean, any Druid (or some Rangers, Egoists with the ACF Arukoru uses and various members of certain PrCs) is also going to register on that spell.

I think those factors combined make Discern Shapechanger much less of a hindrance to Arukoru than you make it out to be. It certainly doesn't 'trivialize his whole role'.

I feel that stealth is also better than 'decent' as there are many animal forms Arukoru could take that boost stealth skills, as well as the whole 'become as small as desired' trick that can get him anywhere almost unnoticed. I mean, Arukoru can literally become as small as it is possible to become without disappearing into nothingness altogether.

Spoiler: Too powerful?

Show

I must also object to the penalization of Arukoru because he is too powerful. You didn't give Akuza the same penalty because he stated that his build was TO and a high-level opponent. In Arukoru's case, I didn't call it TO specifically, because I trusted that any DM who would try to run this villain would do so because either their group was either high-level enough to have ways to stand up to Arukoru in a straight fight, or maybe it was just a kind of campaign where it's less a typical heroic adventure. Maybe something Cthulhu-like, like you said, or maybe just a campaign that involves other methods of dealing with villains than 'hack and slash'. For example, I gave the scenario in my entry where some of the Arukorus might be persuaded to change their goals. If a DM can't accurately gauge what kind of enemy is suitable for their players, that's a problem with the DM, not the enemy.

After all, the very nature of Arukoru's methods show a personal unwillingness for straight-up confrontation. It's even shown in his backstory where his first instinct is to run away and not stick around for witnesses after killing.

Yes, maybe Arukoru is not suited to a typical group whose go-to strategy is to simply try and cut the monsters down, unless they were high-level. But it's also clear from the nature of the villain as presented that that is not the kind of scenario he is meant to be used in. Since Arukoru is not the kind of villain whose powers and motivations would fit a typical heroic adventure, why evaluate him in that context?

I mean, it would be DM BS, like you said, if Arukoru was sprung on PCs in a campaign with few social elements or who were not at the power level needed to defeat him. But isn't any case of PC's having to fight an overpowered enemy or an enemy that required skills or inclinations they did not have DM BS? The only assumption I made in my build was that any DM using it would be smart enough to know if Arukoru was the kind of villain their PCs would be able to suitably go up against, and I think that is not something unreasonable. Any DM worth playing with should be able to do that.

I also don't know how exactly you scored Originality, but are the duplication method (which as far as I know is a new method) and the shrinking trick (also completely new as far as I know), as well that the fact that unlike any other build in this competition I did not use any traditionally 'sneaky' class worth any kind of bonus? I didn't see them mentioned in your evaluation.

[Telonius]

Dispute reply.

Still disagree; this is just too much into "DM fiat" territory to make it an even competition. Score stands; as do the others.

[Inevitability]

Telonius, Arukōru no Honō's chef PMed me asking for you to focus on his other criticisms as well.

[Telonius]

Sorry for the delay - with the rest of the dispute, I'm still not seeing anything that would change the score. If the build is intended to be TO, as the creator is now suggesting, you have to assume that the players are building to the same and have a larger amount of paranoia than usual. A +10 to Disguise is not going to be sufficient to fool the team at all, so it can't really do a major thing that it's supposed to do (avoid detection by PCs); at the same time it'll still be essentially unbeatable in the long run. Discern Shapeshifter is still going to be a problem. At minimum, the next time they find him after he's "died," they're going to catch on to the fact that he's a shapeshifter who's somehow able to come back from the dead. Even assuming they don't see through the disguise (which they're likely to do), they're going to know where to start looking. If the team isn't built to assume TO, it's going to hit them from nowhere, with little to no defenses against him. It's still got that split; so I'm not changing the score.

[Inevitability]

For the sake of politeness and altogether neatness I'm going to post Arukoru's final dispute here, but it's about time to wrap this competition up and no score change is going to significantly matter anyway.

Okay, firstly, I wasn't saying that Arukoru is necessarily TO. I was only saying that if Akuza, who is TO, can be judged on the basis of a campaign that is TO, then Arukoru should be judged on the basis that he is going to go up against a party at the level to have alternate methods of dispatching him (Flesh to Stone, Barghest's Feast etc.) that do not involve him being able to come back, which doesn't have to mean TO, because the party could simply be at that level, without TO. Without taking his resurrection abilities into account, it's not like Arukoru is really built for combat, so it's not going to be that hard.

So, let's look at it this way. Arukoru could be defeated by a level 11 party and killed permanently with Barghest's Feast (since it is a 6th-level cleric spell). The party doesn't have to be using TO. At that level he already has a +25 to Disguise, which a level 11 non-TO party is unlikely to see through. There's a reason why the high point of the build is CR 11.

Either that, or the campaign is simply not the kind where their main interaction is not about simply slashing the villain to death. Hence why even in the entry I included other ways Arukoru might be dealt with that do not involve direct combat. Therefore, I don't think it deserves that split you think it has.

Also, it's not a +10 to Disguise, it is +26 (not counting any bonus from spells since that would come quite late (but if you do count that the bonus could be as high as +46). There's also the chance of a Bluff check from Second Impression to cover up if a disguise is penetrated. And people close to the person being impersonated don't get a bonus.

Plus, if they don't see through the disguise, that wouldn't help anyone know where to start looking after defeating him, because when Arukoru comes back he could simply pretend to be a completely different person. It's not like a party would even know he is going to resurrect.

So basically, the build only has problems if up against TO or a non-TO party that has no method of preventing resurrection (which can be obtained by level 11 by any cleric) or method of dealing with enemies that does not involve combat, like simply changing the villain's mind, which is stated in the entry as something that could happen. Again, I wasn't saying it was TO, just, if you are going to judge a TO build by TO, judge this one for scenarios it is suited to.

.

[Thurbane]

Were we expecting any more judges? Buufreak maybe?

Anyhow, my HM goes to Clan of the Poisonous Arrow Frog

[Inevitability]

Were we expecting any more judges? Buufreak maybe?

Anyhow, my HM goes to Clan of the Poisonous Arrow Frog

Buufreak PM'ed me mentioning that they might not be able to meet the deadline due to health issues, and that I should not wait for them.

[Venger]

Sounds good to me. Can't wait to see what we're doing next.

[GrayDeath]

My HM goes to Soratoka.

Closest in End Product to what my Project might have done, but totally different execution, love it!