My Fighter Fix

[Hackulator]

So after listening to various people's opinions, here is my fix for the fighter class. Now, to be clear, it still does even come close to matching high tier classes, however, I think it would put the class firmly in the mid tiers. Most importantly, I think it maintains the idea and thematic of what the fighter is supposed to be.

Spoiler: Fighter Fix

Show

Fighters are experts of conflict in all its forms. They train and study night and day to be prepared for any encounter.

CHANGES

Skills 6+int/level (x4 at level 1)

Add the following skills to their skill list:

Balance(if you fall, you are bad at fighting), Bluff(bluffing is an important part of conflict), Diplomacy (there is always talking before or after fighting), Escape Artist (if you are tied up, you are bad at fighting), Handle ANimal (train your own horse), Heal (duh, battlefield medicine?), All stealth skills (cause surprise wins fights), All perception skills (see prior), All knowledge skills (know your enemy), Tumble (duh, its the skill used to move around in combat), Use Magic Device (guess what gets used in combat a lot? MAGIC!)

All saving throws are good...because if you fail your will save, you probably lost the fight, and because dodging **** is part of fighting. FIghters train both their minds and bodies for combat.

NEW CLASS FEATURES

(bonus feats and proficiencies unchanged)

Signature Weapon (Ex)-Though any weapon is deadly in the hands of a fighter, most fighters find a single weapon that truly speaks to them. This weapon becomes like an extension of their body and the things they do with it seem almost magical.

At first level a fighter chooses a single type of weapon, such as longsword or warhammer, as their signature weapon. When wielding that type of weapon, the weapon is treated as having a +1 enhancement bonus. At each odd numbered level, this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of +10 at 19th level. The enhancement bonus cannot increase above +5, however a fighter may use points of enhancement bonus to treat his weapon as though it had certain magical qualities. He may add any of the following abilities by spending the correct amount of enhancement bonus:

Bane(fighter must have at least 5 ranks in the appropriate knowledge skill for the creature type), distance, defending, ghost touch(fighter must have knowledge: religion 5 ranks), Keen, Merciful, Mighty Cleaving, Throwing, Disruption(fighter must have knowledge: religion 5 ranks), Wounding, Speed, Vorpal

(design note: all of these are abilities which do not have an unquestionably magical source. A shocking sword is clearly magical, however a vorpal sword might have just cut your head off without magic. Although these enhancements are treated in all other ways like normal enchanted weapons, including the ability to defeat DR, they are extraordinary abilities due to the fighter’s supreme combat skill as well as knowledge of various types of enemies and thus function even in an AMF. Your signature weapon is a weapon type, not an individual weapon. You can use this power with any weapon of the proper type. Most fighers DO have a weapon which is special to them, but they do not lose their abilities if they lose it.)

With 10 minutes of time spent cleaning, resharpening and practicing with their weapon, a fighter can choose a new set of enhancements for his weapon using the appropriate amount of enhancement bonus for his level.

If a fighter has a magic weapon of his signature weapon type, he may only add his signature weapon ability to that weapon up to a maximum total enhancement bonus of 2 higher than the maximum enhancement bonus for his signature weapon ability.

Example: Johan, a level 9 fighter, uses the warhammer as his signature weapon has a total available Signature Weapon bonus of +5. He finds a +1 flaming shocking warhammer. He could then use his signature weapon bonus to increase the enhancement bonus to +5, making the weapon a +7 weapon in total. Even though he has only used 4 of his 5 points of enhancement, he cannot add the merciful quality to the weapon as that would put it at 3 points of enhancement above his signature weapon bonus.

(design note: the important part of this ability and to an even greater extent the ability below is the fact that the bonuses can be changed. This allows a fighter to adapt to various enemies, something the base fighter has almost no ability to do once his feats have been selected. Simply improving WBL is not enough, as even if you add power, you still do not change the underlying lack of flexibility in the fighter class)

Signature Armor (Ex)-Fighters are trained in the use of various types of armor, but for most, one type truly becomes a second skin.At second level, select one type of armor as your signature armor (regardless of the ability name, you may also choose a shield instead of armor). When you are wearing that type of armor, it is treated as having an enhancement bonus of +1. This bonus increases at by at every even level from then on to a maximum of +10 at level 20. The enhancement bonus may not exceed +5, however the fighter may use points of enhancement bonus to add any of the following magical qualities:

Arrow Catching (projectiles don’t veer, the fighter intercepts them), Arrow Deflection, Bashing, Spell Resistance(requires 5 ranks knowledge: arcana), Light/Medium/Heavy Fortification, Ghost Touch(requires 5 ranks knowledge: religion), Invulnerability, Reflecting

The mechanics for adding enhancement bonus to already magical armor are the same as for weapons.

Additionally the fighter may also add up to 5k gp per point of enhancement bonus worth of special abilities from the following list, to a maximum of 50k gp at level 20. Please note this is IN ADDITION to the enhancement bonus, not a trade. The improved or greater version of any listed ability may also be added if it can be afforded.

Slick, Shadow, Silent Moves, Energy Resistance (any)

There is no limit to adding these abilities to already magical armor, other than the limit of your maximum gp value. You may even add value to already existing special qualities in the above list to improve them.

example:Johan is now 12th level, giving him +6 enhancement and 30k gp of additionals to his signature armor, chainmail. He finds a set of +2 chainmail with Improved Acid Resistance. By adding 24k of his 30k to the improved acid resistance, he may upgrade it to greater acid resistance (greater costs 24k more than improved). He may also add all 6 points of his enhancement bonus, 3 to increase the enhancement to +5 and 3 for special abilities, giving the armor a total bonus of +8.

[Palanan]

This should probably be moved to the Homebrew subforum.

[Karl Aegis]

Bigger numbers is not a Fighter fix. Being able to interact with the system in its entirety will get you to Tier 3. Having bigger numbers does not improve your ability to interact with the system.

[johnbragg]

Bigger numbers is not a Fighter fix. Being able to interact with the system in its entirety will get you to Tier 3. Having bigger numbers does not improve your ability to interact with the system.

But it can get you to Tier 4, which is the de facto goal of a lot of Fighter Fixes. (Otherwise you'd see Barbarian fixes.) Which is why my quickest Fighter Fix is to refluff Barbarian Rage as Combat Focus. Boom, Tier 4 "fighter".

[Hackulator]

Bigger numbers is not a Fighter fix. Being able to interact with the system in its entirety will get you to Tier 3. Having bigger numbers does not improve your ability to interact with the system.

The increased skill ranks, class skill list, and a couple of the abilities you can add to armor allow for what I think would qualify. At the very least, more skill ranks and UMD in class pretty much do that, if not in a unique way.

[SirNibbles]

I dislike this because it goes completely against what I've always said the fighter is: a scholar of armed combat who learns a vast number of techniques (Fighter Bonus Feats) through intense study and training, which he then applies while fighting.

Signature Weapon and Signature Armor are both completely contrary to that ideal of a fighter.

[Karl Aegis]

But it can get you to Tier 4, which is the de facto goal of a lot of Fighter Fixes. (Otherwise you'd see Barbarian fixes.) Which is why my quickest Fighter Fix is to refluff Barbarian Rage as Combat Focus. Boom, Tier 4 "fighter".

That isn't why Barbarian is Tier 4.

The increased skill ranks, class skill list, and a couple of the abilities you can add to armor allow for what I think would qualify. At the very least, more skill ranks and UMD in class pretty much do that, if not in a unique way.

Skills without support is Tier 5: Experts. You need actual class features to be as good as a rogue or a ranger.

If you want a Tier 3-4 Fighter we can build you a Tier 3-4 Fighter. You might be speaking in tongues and flailing your arms around trying to roleplay it correctly, but it will be Tier 3-4.

[Hackulator]

I dislike this because it goes completely against what I've always said the fighter is: a scholar of armed combat who learns a vast number of techniques (Fighter Bonus Feats) through intense study and training, which he then applies while fighting.

Signature Weapon and Signature Armor are both completely contrary to that ideal of a fighter.

Everything about what I wrote is about being a scholar of armed combat being skilled in a vast number of techniques....The signature weapon and armor are extraordinary abilities, they represent additional abilities in combat which are outside the realm of feats. The reason why using the Bane ability requires 5 ranks in the appropriate knowledge is because it represents knowing an opponent well enough to take advantage of it.

[Cosi]

The fundamental problems of the Fighter (as it exists in 3e) are twofold. First, it's too narrowly focused on one strategy in combat. Second, it gets virtually nothing to do outside combat. This solves neither of these problems, so why should anyone care? Like, four additional skills is nice, but the Wizard is sitting right there knowing fabricate and detect thoughts.

If you want a quick and dirty Fighter fix, take the Warblade and give it the Artificer's infusion progression.

[ben-zayb]

I agree to moving this in the Homebrew subforum, where it can comfortably sit right next to the other bazillion attempts at fighter fixes

[martixy]

a) Whish to homebrew - - - - - >
b) Do we really need another fighter fix?
c) Class tier is defined by breadth, not depth.
d) This does nothing to make the fighter more fun to play. You still only walk up to it and hit it with a stick.
e) So terribly uninspiring.

[Goaty14]

I would personally use this, yea sure bonus feats are good and represent the studied martial theme, but I think that the increased skills makes up for that, aside from that, it buffs weapons better than the normal fighter (weapon spec. only does +1 dmg)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems decent enough. You could get a bit more punch with access to the MiC-- there's some fun new properties in there. The Fighter is already right on the border of T4 and T5, and this gives enough added punch and flexibility to push you over the edge.

If you want to go a bit farther-- which I think you very much could-- I suggest adding the ability to reduce your ACP; that'll allow even heavy-armor fighters to make use of the stealth and tumble-type skills you've added. Maybe also a Bardic Knowledge type ability (to go farther in the "identifying what you're fighting" bit).

[Baby Gary]

Seems decent enough. You could get a bit more punch with access to the MiC-- there's some fun new properties in there. The Fighter is already right on the border of T4 and T5, and this gives enough added punch and flexibility to push you over the edge.

If you want to go a bit farther-- which I think you very much could-- I suggest adding the ability to reduce your ACP; that'll allow even heavy-armor fighters to make use of the stealth and tumble-type skills you've added. Maybe also a Bardic Knowledge type ability (to go farther in the "identifying what you're fighting" bit).

I second this.

I have some other ideas of what I think is needed. As some people have already said, the fighter needs more out of combat utility. More skills and skill points can help but I think that there is more that is needed.

One idea that I have is that you get a bonus to intimidate equal to your weapon enchantment bonus (maybe x2)

Another is giving them a way to get a disguise bonus when trying to act like any type of solider.

You could also give them some type of self healing. Maybe an ability like the paladins lay on hands but that only works on himself and the pool equals fighter level * Con mod (or Fighter level * 3, or [fighter level + Con mod] * 3)

they could have DR or SR that either scales with class level or with armor AC bonus (or type)

a way to reduce and/or mitigate ACP

These are just the things that have popped into my head, with further thought I could come up with more ideas

[Cosi]

I don't really see the point of any Fighter fix that is not at least as good as the Warblade, and once you get to as good as the Warblade, why not start from the damn Warblade?

Like, what does the Fighter do other than "be named Fighter" that the Warblade doesn't also do as well or better?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't really see the point of any Fighter fix that is not at least as good as the Warblade, and once you get to as good as the Warblade, why not start from the damn Warblade?

Like, what does the Fighter do other than "be named Fighter" that the Warblade doesn't also do as well or better?

Be simple to play? Not have a very high floor that invalidates most non-ToB classes? Avoid the anti-ToB bias that crops up fairly regularly?

[Hackulator]

Seems decent enough. You could get a bit more punch with access to the MiC-- there's some fun new properties in there. The Fighter is already right on the border of T4 and T5, and this gives enough added punch and flexibility to push you over the edge.

If you want to go a bit farther-- which I think you very much could-- I suggest adding the ability to reduce your ACP; that'll allow even heavy-armor fighters to make use of the stealth and tumble-type skills you've added. Maybe also a Bardic Knowledge type ability (to go farther in the "identifying what you're fighting" bit).

Any ability that could reasonably function nonmagically should be added to this class feature, I simply only looked at the SRD for this post.

I considered that and for now did not include it because I wanted to promote build variability, giving some reason for a fighter to possibly choose lighter armor. One good option would be to reduce ACP/increase max dex bonus, and then give additional features which provided buffs in lighter armor. Maybe you act as though hasted in light armor? Not sure what to do for medium.

I don't really see the point of any Fighter fix that is not at least as good as the Warblade, and once you get to as good as the Warblade, why not start from the damn Warblade?

Like, what does the Fighter do other than "be named Fighter" that the Warblade doesn't also do as well or better?

This version of the fighter is more in line with the ToB classes without the Wuxia aspect, which might not go with the characters people want to play.

[Manyasone]

Any ability that could reasonably function nonmagically should be added to this class feature, I simply only looked at the SRD for this post.

I considered that and for now did not include it because I wanted to promote build variability, giving some reason for a fighter to possibly choose lighter armor. One good option would be to reduce ACP/increase max dex bonus, and then give additional features which provided buffs in lighter armor. Maybe you act as though hasted in light armor? Not sure what to do for medium.



This version of the fighter is more in line with the ToB classes without the Wuxia aspect, which might not go with the characters people want to play.

ToB as wuxia... I am really getting tired of always reading that. Plenty of Western legends contain heroes larger than life. Especially with warblades. And swordsages can easily be based upon old Arabic legends

[Krazzman]

This version of the fighter is more in line with the ToB classes without the Wuxia aspect, which might not go with the characters people want to play.

You mean the "Anime" type stuff like flying around, shooting lasers and stuff while shouting your special power names? Yeah... no. The system is basically done. I wouldn't even join a 3.5 game without ToB/MoI/Dragon Magic nowadays.

Be simple to play? Not have a very high floor that invalidates most non-ToB classes? Avoid the anti-ToB bias that crops up fairly regularly?

I don't think a fighter is "simple". Quite the contrary as you seem to need to divulge endless amounts of diving into obscure splatbooks to make a fighter even function half-way decent. I played 3.5 for roughly 6 years and even though we had a lot of splatbooks 90% of fighter advice wasn't viable for our games. So why should I need to do that when I just can pick ToB and be done with it?

ToB as wuxia... I am really getting tired of always reading that. Plenty of Western legends contain heroes larger than life. Especially with warblades. And swordsages can easily be based upon old Arabic legends

Yes, even considering that most "Anime"(I know it's a media, like book and not a genre)/"wuxia" tropes are already filled with non-ToB stuff. Wu Jen, spells and so on...

About the "Fix" at hand. I personally believe it falls short. It makes the same mistake as Paizo did. You basically just took the Magus's Arcane Pool ability to quickenchant his weapons and called it a Signature Weapon and made an Armor one too.

I personally think Martial Flexibility of Pathfinder's Brawler is a far better way of fixing the fighter. Cherry picking from Warblades Adaptive Weapons thingy (currently away from books, sry) as well as Martial Flexibility and a look at the Martial Traditions from PoW.

Giving the fighter Martial Flexibility, Bravery and giving Fighters the chance to pick a Weapon Group at level 1 and every few levels, which have a corrensponding Skill and gives you certain benefits Out of Combat. Both featuring the Versatility of a Man-at-Arms as well as letting him specialise into something that isn't just adding numbers to an already bland base. And even then I am not sure if it would be a good fix.

[Mordaedil]

I dislike this because it goes completely against what I've always said the fighter is: a scholar of armed combat who learns a vast number of techniques (Fighter Bonus Feats) through intense study and training, which he then applies while fighting.

Signature Weapon and Signature Armor are both completely contrary to that ideal of a fighter.

I think I'd rather like features like melee weapon mastery being granted for free at certain levels to be more in keeping with the fighter, as well as the ability to pick tactical feats without their prerequisite feats would add a lot to the fighter.

[logic_error]

My fix:

All fighter feats are trained at level 1. Only how many you can have in an adventuring day is determined every morning, like wizards. Also, some trained feats are locked behind feat combo requirements (you can only have Power attack associated feats if you 'prepared' power attack) and ability modifiers.

[Florian]

ToB as wuxia... I am really getting tired of always reading that. Plenty of Western legends contain heroes larger than life. Especially with warblades. And swordsages can easily be based upon old Arabic legends

I think you misunderstand the underlying critique re: ToB as Wuxia.

It´s not like anyone is against playing a larger than life hero, it´s the "feel" of the ToB mechanics.
It´s like, nothing against learning a stance, boost or strike, but on a "martial"-themed class, that thing should be "always on", or "always available", in contrast to having to ready a certain number of them and using a refresh mechanic. That is the "Wuxia" thing that´s breaking with the verisimilitude.
Heck, in comparision, I actually would prefer a 1d4+1 cool down mechanic like dragon breath has.

[Hackulator]

I think you misunderstand the underlying critique re: ToB as Wuxia.

It´s not like anyone is against playing a larger than life hero, it´s the "feel" of the ToB mechanics.
It´s like, nothing against learning a stance, boost or strike, but on a "martial"-themed class, that thing should be "always on", or "always available", in contrast to having to ready a certain number of them and using a refresh mechanic. That is the "Wuxia" thing that´s breaking with the verisimilitude.
Heck, in comparision, I actually would prefer a 1d4+1 cool down mechanic like dragon breath has.

Yeah that's a big part of it. The whole feel of "NOW I'LL USE MY STONE DRAGON'S FURY ATTACK" is very anime/wuxia. Please note I don't have a problem with that and I enjoy playing classes from that book, but it doesn't fit every martial character.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah that's a big part of it. The whole feel of "NOW I'LL USE MY STONE DRAGON'S FURY ATTACK" is very anime/wuxia. Please note I don't have a problem with that and I enjoy playing classes from that book, but it doesn't fit every martial character.

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

[Hackulator]

Inigo Montoya: You are using Bonetti’s Defense against me, ah?
Man in Black: I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain.
Inigo: Naturally, you must suspect me to attack with Capa Ferro?
Man in Black: Naturally, but I find that Thibault cancels out Capa Ferro. Don’t you?
Inigo: Unless the enemy has studied his Agrippa… which I have.

All of those are great masters whose opinions on fighting they have studied, not discrete attacks or maneuvers. The real world basis for that scene is described here.

However, I am still willing to concede your example is appropriate. That doesn't change the fact that such things are far more common in anime/wuxia and feeling like ToB is similar is perfectly reasonable. Honestly, any argument to the contrary is pretty silly, as you're arguing about what other people feel about something. Lots of people feel that ToB has a more anime-style combat to it, and therefore it won't fit everyone's characters.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, any argument to the contrary is pretty silly, as you're arguing about what other people feel about something.

Feeling is an opinion. Opinions can be changed through discourse. I see nothing silly here.

[Karl Aegis]

Jack: The Tremendous Horse Cut technique should have destroyed your sword.
The Scotsman: Magic runes, Laddy. All them fancy moves will get ya nowhere! Now quit yer jumpin' around and get ta fightin'!

That's like the only time the name of a specific move is mentioned in Samurai Jack. Jack mentions nothing when he goes through several stances and styles warming up to fist-fight Aku in season 4. If I recall correctly, only Da Samoorai in season 4 called his attacks and he wasn't exactly the most competent swordsman in the world.

[Hackulator]

Feeling is an opinion. Opinions can be changed through discourse. I see nothing silly here.

Fair point. However, the fact that you can try to argue people out of that feeling does not mean there are not people who feel that way, therefore there is a reasonable niche of a martial character for those people. Which I think was where this argument originally came from? I dunno, internet discussions go off rails fast.

Jack: The Tremendous Horse Cut technique should have destroyed your sword.
The Scotsman: Magic runes, Laddy. All them fancy moves will get ya nowhere! Now quit yer jumpin' around and get ta fightin'!

That's like the only time the name of a specific move is mentioned in Samurai Jack. Jack mentions nothing when he goes through several stances and styles warming up to fist-fight Aku in season 4. If I recall correctly, only Da Samoorai in season 4 called his attacks and he wasn't exactly the most competent swordsman in the world.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to support with this information?

I feel like in game terms, that implies jack is a samurai who took the Martial Training feat?

[Karl Aegis]

Nah, Da Samoorai is the one who took Martial Study for the moves Crazy Eights, Turkey Carve and Funky Chop. Jack just knows how to play.

[Flickerdart]

Fair point. However, the fact that you can try to argue people out of that feeling does not mean there are not people who feel that way, therefore there is a reasonable niche of a martial character for those people. Which I think was where this argument originally came from? I dunno, internet discussions go off rails fast.

There is definitely a place for a martial character that does not have named, activated abilities. But part of the problem with 3.x is that characters without such abilities are always weak and limited. The people who insist that all fighters must lack these abilities are a big part of why fighters are weak and limited. It is not possible to resolve this issue without changing this mindset.

There are people who do not believe that fighters are weak and limited, but a fighter fix thread is not a place I'd expect to find them.