Questionable Content 11: It's Like Seeing a Unicorn

[The Extinguisher]

I'm surprised this the breaking point for so many people here. QC has been socially conscious and progressive for a while now, and I feel like there have been far "worse" instances of this in the past. It's weird to see people stick around this long only to be turned off by the word "privilege"

Also, people don't need to be nice to be treated with respect. The fact that May is a rude jerk doesn't mean she deserves the treatment she has gotten from society.

[Traab]

Its not about being progressive, its about how clumsy and inaccurate the attempt is. Had he gotten some sort of ultra deluxe model with extra blingsauce and started strutting around like he is mr "check me out arent I awesome?" then talking about his privilege would have made sense. Instead a sentient ipod finally felt ready to get a body, and has been punished for it ever since. From anxiety attacks about being outside on his own, to ostensible friends telling him he is somehow wrong for wanting to tell them that he is a humanoid like them now.

[georgie_leech]

Its not about being progressive, its about how clumsy and inaccurate the attempt is. Had he gotten some sort of ultra deluxe model with extra blingsauce and started strutting around like he is mr "check me out arent I awesome?" then talking about his privilege would have made sense. Instead a sentient ipod finally felt ready to get a body, and has been punished for it ever since. From anxiety attacks about being outside on his own, to ostensible friends telling him he is somehow wrong for wanting to tell them that he is a humanoid like them now.

May aside, who has plenty of her own baggage, has one person or AI tried to make Winslow feel bad or told him he was in the wrong?

[Ibrinar]

Do robots in QC-verse have family?

Wait, who even built May? And for what purpose? Was she created by humans, or is she a product of the singularity? Did she do or know anything before stealing money to buy a drone?

Man, these are questions that would probably go a long way to making May feel like an actual character that I care about.

Yeah that could be interesting, we kinda lack background info about AIs in the setting, which is okay since it isn't a scifi story but would be nice.

[Comrade]

I'm surprised this the breaking point for so many people here. QC has been socially conscious and progressive for a while now, and I feel like there have been far "worse" instances of this in the past. It's weird to see people stick around this long only to be turned off by the word "privilege"

Also, people don't need to be nice to be treated with respect. The fact that May is a rude jerk doesn't mean she deserves the treatment she has gotten from society.

I don't care about the progressive angle-- in fact, I'm all for things like greater representation of minorities and being conscious of social issues when creating art. What bothers me and seems to bother others is that it was handled with all the finesse of an allosaurus trying to tap dance and wasn't even actually fair (not to mention, in my case, it's an arc that centers exclusively on characters I don't like or enjoy reading, but that's separate). And Winslow wasn't treating her with anything but respect, so that doesn't address the fact that she made a complete ass of herself for no reason.

May aside, who has plenty of her own baggage, has one person or AI tried to make Winslow feel bad or told him he was in the wrong?

Momo seems to think it's Winslow's responsibility to apologise to May. Bubbles didn't really endorse May's inurbanity, but the fact that she still pins it on Winslow's 'privilege' and not on May being a bellicose and rude person is just silly. The narrative in general is clearly framed as Winslow slighting or wronging May when it was pretty obviously the other way around.

[georgie_leech]

Momo seems to think it's Winslow's responsibility to apologise to May. Bubbles didn't really endorse May's inurbanity, but the fact that she still pins it on Winslow's 'privilege' and not on May being a bellicose and rude person is just silly. The narrative in general is clearly framed as Winslow slighting or wronging May when it was pretty obviously the other way around.

See, I read Bubble's and Winslow's comments a little differently; that he didn't do anything wrong. Winslow feels bad because he offended her by accident. He wants to do something good because he doesn't like hurting people. Like, if someone opened a door suddenly and hit someone who happened to be standing there in the face, they didn't do anything wrong, but hurt was still done. I don't see anything wrong per se with someone thinking that is apology-worthy. If Momo insists he apologises, or Bubbles makes him volunteer his time, that will be something else.

[John Cribati]

And May even says she doesn't even want an apology. She wants Winslow to think about the way he presents things.

I'm pretty sure the last two pages of thread would have turned out quite differently if the word "privilege" never showed up in the comic.

[Fawkes]

Yeah that could be interesting, we kinda lack background info about AIs in the setting, which is okay since it isn't a scifi story but would be nice.

The thing is, at this point this certainly is a sci-fi story. There are multiple major characters who are advanced AI the kinds of which don't yet exist in our present day. We've spent a significant amount of time on issues and problems that they uniquely face as artificial intelligence. QC has steadily become a science fiction comic over the course of its run. Especially recently, as it's introduced Bubbles, May, and Station. Everything about those three has been entirely a science fiction story.

[Comrade]

See, I read Bubble's and Winslow's comments a little differently; that he didn't do anything wrong. Winslow feels bad because he offended her by accident. He wants to do something good because he doesn't like hurting people. Like, if someone opened a door suddenly and hit someone who happened to be standing there in the face, they didn't do anything wrong, but hurt was still done. I don't see anything wrong per se with someone thinking that is apology-worthy. If Momo insists he apologises, or Bubbles makes him volunteer his time, that will be something else.

I don't agree that it's comparable to accidentally hitting somebody with a door, but even supposing it is analogous, May's behaviour would still be unacceptable. If somebody reacted to accidentally being hit by a door by flipping out at their unwitting assailant and then spent the rest of the day insulting them and complaining about it, I'd tell them to get over it. And if a third party reacted not by telling that person to get over it but by telling the unwitting assailant to 'think about how you open doors from now on' or something, I'd think it just as ridiculous.

I understand Winslow still wanting to apologise. He's always been a pushover. I don't understand and I don't like the author framing it as a wrong Winslow perpetrated against May, especially given May's reaction makes it in no uncertain terms the opposite.

I'm pretty sure the last two pages of thread would have turned out quite differently if the word "privilege" never showed up in the comic.

Maybe so, the word does tend to evoke a knee-jerk reaction at times. But remove the word and it's still a character lashing out with unwarranted rudeness, and other characters acting like that behaviour was the least bit acceptable or valid.

[Vinyadan]

Vaguely related (or maybe not? or yes? in a bad way? hipstironically?) http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2229

Personally, the reason I am not liking this is that I find that the story looks a lot like a spoon-fed moralizing tale. While I'm OK with the moralizing, I'm not OK with the spoon-feeding. I'm being mansplained. Talesplained. Writersplained. Argh.

Also yes, world building would help a lot.

[The Extinguisher]

I don't agree that it's comparable to accidentally hitting somebody with a door, but even supposing it is analogous, May's behaviour would still be unacceptable. If somebody reacted to accidentally being hit by a door by flipping out at their unwitting assailant and then spent the rest of the day insulting them and complaining about it, I'd tell them to get over it. And if a third party reacted not by telling that person to get over it but by telling the unwitting assailant to 'think about how you open doors from now on' or something, I'd think it just as ridiculous.

"Be careful when you open doors so you dont hurt anyone" is a ridiculous thing to say?

I really dont understand whats going on in this thread anymore.


Also, wow that guest comic is very bad. Yikes.

[Comrade]

"Be careful when you open doors so you dont hurt anyone" is a ridiculous thing to say?

Yes, it is a pretty ridiculous thing to say if the person in question opened the door in question normally.

Analogy's getting a bit unwieldy, though.

[georgie_leech]

I don't agree that it's comparable to accidentally hitting somebody with a door, but even supposing it is analogous, May's behaviour would still be unacceptable. If somebody reacted to accidentally being hit by a door by flipping out at their unwitting assailant and then spent the rest of the day insulting them and complaining about it, I'd tell them to get over it. And if a third party reacted not by telling that person to get over it but by telling the unwitting assailant to 'think about how you open doors from now on' or something, I'd think it just as ridiculous.

I understand Winslow still wanting to apologise. He's always been a pushover. I don't understand and I don't like the author framing it as a wrong Winslow perpetrated against May, especially given May's reaction makes it in no uncertain terms the opposite.

See, again, Bubbles never tells Winslow to do anything. She offers an explanation for why Winslow isn't a jerk and why May reacted the way she did, then asks Winslow what he wants to do about the fact that he apparently feels bad. When Winslow says he hasn't thought about that sort of thing before, she suggests the obvious step: thinking about it. At no point does she push him to any conclusion.

RE: Momo's handling of May: Let me submit that she doesn't respond well to being held accountable for her actions, and I can't exactly blame Momo for not wanting to confront her about it while she is still angry. If May continues to act aggrieved by this thing instead of cooling off, and Momo continues to support her in that, then I will have to revise my opinion of what's going on.

[The Extinguisher]

Yes, it is a pretty ridiculous thing to say if the person in question opened the door in question normally.

Analogy's getting a bit unwieldy, though.

Sure, and by doing something normally without thinking about what might happen if someone was on the other side of the door they hurt someone. Which they wouldn't have done if they had been more careful about opening the door.

It wasn't malicious, or intentional and it doesn't make the person bad or wrong in anyway since it was an accident, but telling them "hey be careful opening doors in the future" is pretty good advice.

Also if someone just smacked you with a door its pretty reasonable to get upset over that. Getting smacked by a door opening suddenly hurts.

This analogy holds up pretty well I think.

[Comrade]

See, again, Bubbles never tells Winslow to do anything. She offers an explanation for why Winslow isn't a jerk and why May reacted the way she did, then asks Winslow what he wants to do about the fact that he apparently feels bad. When Winslow says he hasn't thought about that sort of thing before, she suggests the obvious step: thinking about it. At no point does she push him to any conclusion.

RE: Momo's handling of May: Let me submit that she doesn't respond well to being held accountable for her actions, and I can't exactly blame Momo for not wanting to confront her about it while she is still angry. If May continues to act aggrieved by this thing instead of cooling off, and Momo continues to support her in that, then I will have to revise my opinion of what's going on.

That's true, Bubbles doesn't. I still feel like the scene is framing Winslow as responsible for having wronged May in one way or another, and I still feel like the author is implying that Winslow feeling like he needs to apologise is the correct conclusion, which I absolutely don't agree with. But you're right, Bubbles isn't quite telling him to do anything. Nudging him towards that conclusion, maybe, but not outright pushing.

Sure, and by doing something normally without thinking about what might happen if someone was on the other side of the door they hurt someone. Which they wouldn't have done if they had been more careful about opening the door.

It wasn't malicious, or intentional and it doesn't make the person bad or wrong in anyway since it was an accident, but telling them "hey be careful opening doors in the future" is pretty good advice.

Also if someone just smacked you with a door its pretty reasonable to get upset over that. Getting smacked by a door opening suddenly hurts.

This analogy holds up pretty well I think.

It holds up pretty well if by 'smack with a door', you mean 'the door contacted the other person'. Because it's really not like Winslow actually... did anything. Maybe I'm just blinded here by my 'never-been-hit-by-a-door' privilege, but I'm really just not grasping how the two scenarios are comparable. Winslow didn't walk in hollering about how easy it was to get the body. He didn't laugh in May's face. He didn't point out how tough her lot in life is. He didn't do anything. If you really want to compare it to being hit by a door, then it's more like being gently tapped by a door somebody opened because you were kind of in the way of it.

Honestly, the fact that this whole situation is still being discussed in terms of what Winslow 'did' rather than May's disproportionate reaction is pretty strange to me. Nothing actually happened.

[Ibrinar]

See, again, Bubbles never tells Winslow to do anything. She offers an explanation for why Winslow isn't a jerk and why May reacted the way she did, then asks Winslow what he wants to do about the fact that he apparently feels bad. When Winslow says he hasn't thought about that sort of thing before, she suggests the obvious step: thinking about it. At no point does she push him to any conclusion.

? "What do you feel is the best way to turn your privilege to a means for good?" It is phrased as a question but since he didn't pronounce an intention to turn it into a means for good that is her telling him what to do about it just leaving the details open. Now I don't think she intends to force her opinion on him or anything, but she formulates the question with the assumption that he will/wants to do it.

[georgie_leech]

? "What do you feel is the best way to turn your privilege to a means for good?" It is phrased as a question but since he didn't pronounce an intention to turn it into a means for good that is her telling him what to do about it just leaving the details open. Now I don't think she intends to force her opinion on him or anything, but she formulates the question with the assumption that he will/wants to do it.

"I feel bad because this happened."
"It was probably because of X"
"I don't know what to do about that."
"Because I know you're not a jerk, probably something good."

Personally, if I hear that a friend feels bad about something they did, and then hear that they want to do something about it, I generally assume that means they want to do something good rather than make things worse for people.

I'm not saying it's the mostly subtly written bit of dialogue, and personally I probably would have spread out the "Bubbles is supportive" and "Winslow decides to think about if he can use what he has for good" over two strips instead of rushing through it, but ultimately that's my only complaint about it: it's rushed. So perhaps I'm being overly generous with what is written, but given what we've seen of these characters so far, I think it's safer to assume good intentions (May aside ) than that they're deciding to be pushy towards their less assertive friends.

[Lethologica]

I think what causes Ibrinar's reaction is how Bubbles chooses the framing of the issue and the scope of the response. "Turning your privilege into a force for good" is a good idea, but it doesn't really address what happened between Winslow and May, only how what happened between Winslow and May reflects Winslow's relationship with society at large. By immediately turning to the abstract and systematic, Bubbles' response suggests that it's more important for Winslow to awaken to the progressive worldview than to patch things up with May. This is also what creates the blind spot regarding May's misbehavior.

[georgie_leech]

I think what causes Ibrinar's reaction is how Bubbles chooses the framing of the issue and the scope of the response. "Turning your privilege into a force for good" is a good idea, but it doesn't really address what happened between Winslow and May, only how what happened between Winslow and May reflects Winslow's relationship with society at large. By immediately turning to the abstract and systematic, Bubbles' response suggests that it's more important for Winslow to awaken to the progressive worldview than to patch things up with May. This is also what creates the blind spot regarding May's misbehavior.

Mm. Like I said, I find it a bit rushed, even as I don't disagree with the general arc of this plotline.

[dogmac]

My analogy to what happened here is something like

"You can complain about a paper cut, but not to someone who is missing a hand"

Only slightly in reverse. No one can say that Winslow shouldn't have gotten his nice new body. But for him to immediately go to someone who he knows is struggling with a crap old barely working body, albeit through her own fault, showed a distinct lack of tact on his part. And yeah, I reckon he should probably apologise for being thoughtless, using his excitement at having a movable body after all this time as his excuse.

[Shadow of the Sun]

For what it's worth - Winslow did something that I'd probably do myself in a similar situation, and I'd then probably feel super bad because I missed out on that subtlety what with the autism.

Bubbles' response is one that I'd appreciate giving, rather than having someone tell me I'm an idiot in more abrupt terms because I missed why the person I was talking too was upset.

[Kato]

My analogy to what happened here is something like

"You can complain about a paper cut, but not to someone who is missing a hand"

Only slightly in reverse. No one can say that Winslow shouldn't have gotten his nice new body. But for him to immediately go to someone who he knows is struggling with a crap old barely working body, albeit through her own fault, showed a distinct lack of tact on his part. And yeah, I reckon he should probably apologise for being thoughtless, using his excitement at having a movable body after all this time as his excuse.

Okay, I don't want to get too deep into this but... this is one of the poorer parts of the plot. I can hardly recall may ever complaining about her body being crap. Yeah, it's not something she choose but something issued, but as far as I recall it being poorly made has hardly ever been brought up. Heck, Winslow not knowing about her problems was a distinct possibility to me.
(That said, I will admit may has kind of a point but she conveyed in a... very May, i.e. poor way. If she'd addressed him in a more civilized manner I'd have a far easier time agreeing with her)

[John Cribati]

Her face fell off once. We've seen her servicing her body on three seaparate occasions. The fact that shes constantly getting work done on it ahould be enoigh to establish a pattern without it neesing to be said.

[Egneil]

Her face fell off once. We've seen her servicing her body on three seaparate occasions. The fact that shes constantly getting work done on it ahould be enoigh to establish a pattern without it neesing to be said.

True enough, but where was Winslow during any of those times? And more importantly how vocal has May been about these times when she wasn't having to deal with the problems of her body?

[Fawkes]

That's actually a good point. Have we seen Winslow and May together before?

[Traab]

Her face fell off once. We've seen her servicing her body on three seaparate occasions. The fact that shes constantly getting work done on it ahould be enoigh to establish a pattern without it neesing to be said.

Too be fair she did do plenty of complaining about it, to her parole officer/case worker even. Only to be told /shrug. She came down there with a paper bag over her exposed face meats and I think she had busted her arm already as well. But I dont think winslow was ever around while she was complaining about the lack of awesome her body suffered from. Heh, would that have been privilege? After all, "Oh poor baby, your fully humanoid body which you can use to wander the earth at will and work a regular job is low quality. I would pat you on the back in sympathy but MY ARMS ARE TWO INCHES LONG AND DONT BEND!"

[Vinyadan]

For what I remember, it was the arms which fell off. The face got ripped when she tripped on an unsheathed sword in Dale's bedroom, which she had entered without informing him to use his private lube, because it smelled better than wd-40.

[Max_Killjoy]

Too be fair she did do plenty of complaining about it, to her parole officer/case worker even. Only to be told /shrug. She came down there with a paper bag over her exposed face meats and I think she had busted her arm already as well. But I dont think winslow was ever around while she was complaining about the lack of awesome her body suffered from. Heh, would that have been privilege? After all, "Oh poor baby, your fully humanoid body which you can use to wander the earth at will and work a regular job is low quality. I would pat you on the back in sympathy but MY ARMS ARE TWO INCHES LONG AND DONT BEND!"

True -- Winslow's had a body that was pretty good for nothing more than being the target of jokes.

[John Cribati]

The kind of body he had before ultimately doesn't matter when the privilege we're discussing is how easy it was for him to change it after he decided he wanted to.

[The Extinguisher]

Yeah Winslow was never stuck in his old body. In fact, he was offered a more humanoid body in the past (likely an early version of what AI have now) and turned it down.

Winslow's chasis was most likely top of the line when it was introduced. It's a much different situation then May being given garbage by society.