The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[javcs]

I'd go -0 for all of them.

It's not just that you can't get healed or buffed. You can't use most magic items either.

You basically need to go VoP Druid ... except I'm not sure you can actually hold or use a druidic divine focus.

[Nifft]

With fewer HD, the Hellwasp Swarm could be playable. It'd even be a fun character.

The others, with their "Int: --" lines, seem unplayable to me.

[zergling.exe]

With fewer HD, the Hellwasp Swarm could be playable. It'd even be a fun character.

The others, with their "Int: --" lines, seem unplayable to me.

As has been the case through all three threads, anything with Int < 3 (or just mindless) is assumed to somehow get there by DM allowance.

[Nifft]

As has been the case through all three threads, anything with Int < 3 (or just mindless) is assumed to somehow get there by DM allowance.

These don't have sufficient compensation to make the -10 Int playable.

They don't have special features to compensate the loss of Mindless.

They seem unplayable to me, for reasons which are compatible with the thread.

[Inevitability]

I'm still not sure about the bat: weapon immunity is very strong for only three levels. Even a druid can't just turn into a swarm already by then.

[Lans]

I would put the bat swarm at least a 0

[zlefin]

Looking over all the swarms; I agree most are -0, and I also share the sentiment that the bat swarm should maybe be 0.
It kinda depends on how some things are adjudicated, which might depend on the dm.
for instance: swarm attack doesn't work like a regular attack, so how would various damage modifiers you might acquire affect it? like if you use a martial maneuver boost that increases weapon damage with unarmed strikes, would that help it? How does it interact with actions? RAW, it looks like the swarm attack doesn't take an action; it's just automatic at end of your turn, so you could take a standard action and still get in your swarm attack. Can you make martial maneuver strikes from disciplines that have unarmed attacks as a discipline weapon?

immunity to weapons is a nice ability, which always remains somewhat relevant (outside of high op all caster situations). and the other swarm immunities are quit ehandy, even with the massive downsides.

classwise, the stuff that seems it might go well would be dragon shaman (fast healing aura gives you a way to heal some), druid, or initiators.

either dragon shaman or that desert wind stance plus some tumble ranks can get you fire resist 5, which removes a lot of the othre ways for mundanes to hurt you.

[javcs]

Vulnerability to AoE is pretty terrible for you.
Immunity to weapons is nice, sure ... but I think the disadvantages are substantially worse than the advantages.
The inability to use most magic items is a huge disadvantage.

You also have no ability to speak.

Is there a Wis-based manifester? You basically need to go into that and take VoP.
Anything that mandates the use of VoP is ungood.
Like, for example, who would play a variant human that instead of the human bonus feat, got VoP as a bonus feat. It would make for very niche builds.

Between the downsides and associated/inherent build complications - I just don't see any swarm as worth it.

[Thurbane]

Possibly not a great point of comparison, but the Silithar (LoM p.168) has a Swarm form and gets immunity to weapon damage: 9RHD, LA +8. It gets a bunch of other stuff too, so like I said, maybe not a great measuring stick for swarms.

[Blue Jay]

Looking over all the swarms; I agree most are -0, and I also share the sentiment that the bat swarm should maybe be 0.
It kinda depends on how some things are adjudicated, which might depend on the dm.
for instance: swarm attack doesn't work like a regular attack, so how would various damage modifiers you might acquire affect it? like if you use a martial maneuver boost that increases weapon damage with unarmed strikes, would that help it? How does it interact with actions? RAW, it looks like the swarm attack doesn't take an action; it's just automatic at end of your turn, so you could take a standard action and still get in your swarm attack. Can you make martial maneuver strikes from disciplines that have unarmed attacks as a discipline weapon?

The SRD text on the swarm subtype says that swarms don't make standard melee attacks. As a DM, I would personally interpret that as "swarms can't make standard attacks," but I guess some DM's might see it differently. The trouble is, with Tiny or smaller size and no weapon options, and inability to grapple, melee generally isn't going to work well for you: your niche is sitting on your enemies and doing nothing while they repeatedly roll saves against nausea, which is not only a very narrow niche, but also a very boring way to play the game.

In my games, I homebrewed swarm attacks to work like natural weapons, and gave some extra-attack options and scaling options. But, without stuff like that, swarm attacks are just hard to do anything with, because the damage doesn't scale or synergize with anything.

[Celestia]

So, since a swarm has thousands of creatures, each, presumably, with its own mouth, would a swarm dragonfire adept get thousands of breath attacks? Because that's a quick path to stupid damage.

[Luccan]

I assume a single, multi-mouthed creature would not, instead using its breath weapon out of one mouth. So, I'm gonna say no.

[Nifft]

So, since a swarm has thousands of creatures, each, presumably, with its own mouth, would a swarm dragonfire adept get thousands of breath attacks? Because that's a quick path to stupid damage.

Swarms get one standard action.

Each breath takes one standard action.

If you're going for ridiculously dumb, though, you've stopped too soon: centipede swarm Rogue with multiweapon fighting and 98 little daggers each.

[Blue Jay]

So, since a swarm has thousands of creatures, each, presumably, with its own mouth, would a swarm dragonfire adept get thousands of breath attacks? Because that's a quick path to stupid damage.

Only if your DM is a complete moron with a very large bag of dice.

[danielxcutter]

I think a swarm's breath weapon would be all the tiny creatures firing their tiny breath weapons at once, IMO. It fits and it makes for a cute image, honestly.

[Dimers]

I assume a single, multi-mouthed creature would not, instead using its breath weapon out of one mouth. So, I'm gonna say no.

Pyrohydras and cryohydras do. Chimerae don't, but then, the heads are explicitly not identical. Can't think of other SRD monsters with multiple heads and at least one breath weapon ...

[Inevitability]

Swarm (2)

More of the same, to be honest.

Locust Swarm

6 RHD, diminutive, and no ability bonuses apart from dexterity. This thing is arguably weaker than the bat swarm had they had the same amount of HD: with the locust having twice that -0 is the only thing I could reasonably assign.

Rat Swarm

The only Tiny-sized one amongst the swarms, which sadly mangles that magnificent weapon immunity. Low speed, bad ability scores, and no further special abilities beyond a weak disease force me to put this down as another -0.

Spider Swarm

Now this is interesting: a diminutive swarm with only 2 RHD! Tremorsense, a climb speed, and poison are all pretty nifty, and I think this one deserves +0 if only for giving access to swarm traits at a relatively low level. I admit it's close to -0, though.

[No brains]

IIRC, another interesting fact about the centipede swarm is that it is the only creature to have a negative constitution modifier. Usually only PCs are the only creatures to ever dip below 10.

I know that elves technically count, but they all cheat by putting 12 or better in their stat blocks. Only the centipede swarm wears that 8 constitution like a medal- and bulls-eye on their chest.

[Celestia]

Swarms get one standard action.

Each breath takes one standard action.

If you're going for ridiculously dumb, though, you've stopped too soon: centipede swarm Rogue with multiweapon fighting and 98 little daggers each.

Brilliant. Truly, that would be death by one thousand cuts. Or 147,000 cuts, as the case may be.

[Nifft]

Spider Swarm

Now this is interesting: a diminutive swarm with only 2 RHD! Tremorsense, a climb speed, and poison are all pretty nifty, and I think this one deserves +0 if only for giving access to swarm traits at a relatively low level. I admit it's close to -0, though.

Str -10, Dex +6, Con ±0, Int -10, Wis ±0, Cha -8 => net -22, is that a record?

Mindless means no skills or feats. Having an Int score removes Mindless.

Is that +0 based on having skills & feats, or is it based on immunity to mind-affecting effects? Because it's one or the other, not both.

[Inevitability]

Is that +0 based on having skills & feats, or is it based on immunity to mind-affecting effects? Because it's one or the other, not both.

Well actually...

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind.

The swarm subtype is kept after getting an intelligence score, but that doesn't give it a hive mind (which is a distinct special quality with a RAW definition). In other words: they keep their immunity to mind-affecting effects as long as these target a specific number of creatures, which means they are immune to almost all mind-affecting things.

[Nifft]

The swarm subtype is kept after getting an intelligence score, but that doesn't give it a hive mind (which is a distinct special quality with a RAW definition). In other words: they keep their immunity to mind-affecting effects as long as these target a specific number of creatures, which means they are immune to almost all mind-affecting things.

Are there any Swarms which have an Intelligence score and do NOT have the Hive Mind property?

When you say, "The swarm subtype is kept after getting an intelligence score, ..." -- how did that Swarm get an Intelligence score? What's the mechanism and/or rule?

[Daedroth]

I think a swarm's breath weapon would be all the tiny creatures firing their tiny breath weapons at once, IMO. It fits and it makes for a cute image, honestly.

This sounds awesome, i have to try it one day :D

[Inevitability]

Are there any Swarms which have an Intelligence score and do NOT have the Hive Mind property?

How about rat swarms?

If you were asking about intelligence scores over 2 instead, there's the Silthilar from Lords of Madness.

When you say, "The swarm subtype is kept after getting an intelligence score, ..." -- how did that Swarm get an Intelligence score? What's the mechanism and/or rule?

A Living Awaken could do it by engulfing the swarm, for one. If the swarm isn't an animal, have a Living Aspect of the Wolf engulf it before.

[Nifft]

How about rat swarms?

Nice, that does prove viability of the concept.

Cool, rat swarm and hellwasp swarm are both playable.

The others -- the Int-null crowd -- remain unredeemed garbage.

A Living Awaken could do it by engulfing the swarm, for one. If the swarm isn't an animal, have a Living Aspect of the Wolf engulf it before.

Living Awaken on a rat swarm is a neat idea. Good backstory, too: "So I wake up in the Mournlands, and I'm a pile of rats..."

However, the Aspect of the Wolf idea seems pretty implausible, especially from a books-thrown-at-face perspective. Using a rounds-per-level effect to qualify for a permanent upgrade is just not something that would fly in any group I've met.

[WhamBamSam]

Regarding breath weapons, there is no general rule to that effect, but the Multiheaded template does say that the creature breathes from all of its heads. So a creature with n heads with a breath weapon that only comes from one of them which gains a head from Multiheaded can then breathe from all n+1 heads.

[Inevitability]

Nice, that does prove viability of the concept.

Cool, rat swarm and hellwasp swarm are both playable.

Don't forget bats.

The others -- the Int-null crowd -- remain unredeemed garbage.

Living Awaken on a rat swarm is a neat idea. Good backstory, too: "So I wake up in the Mournlands, and I'm a pile of rats..."

However, the Aspect of the Wolf idea seems pretty implausible, especially from a books-thrown-at-face perspective. Using a rounds-per-level effect to qualify for a permanent upgrade is just not something that would fly in any group I've met.

I'm honestly not too concerned with the overall practicality of such ideas. This thread isn't meant to be a detailed guide to giving certain monsters an intelligence score in ways most DMs will approve, it's meant to be a guideline for people who want to walk up to their DM and say 'this is a thing I want to play, the community suggested this LA for it, and it is not impossible for it to be intelligent'.

[White Blade]

Regarding breath weapons, there is no general rule to that effect, but the Multiheaded template does say that the creature breathes from all of its heads. So a creature with n heads with a breath weapon that only comes from one of them which gains a head from Multiheaded can then breathe from all n+1 heads.

Multiheaded requires a discernible head, which raises issues. I know there are some that explicitly say that swarms have no discernible anatomy. MMII? I'm not near my books.

[Inevitability]

Multiheaded requires a discernible head, which raises issues. I know there are some that explicitly say that swarms have no discernible anatomy. MMII? I'm not near my books.

Wouldn't rules on swarms only printed in the second monster manual have been superseded by the 3.5 rules on swarms when the monster manual came out?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Wouldn't rules on swarms only printed in the second monster manual have been superseded by the 3.5 rules on swarms when the monster manual came out?

AFAIK yes, since 3.5's Monster Manual is the primary sources for monsters in 3.5. I would need to check my copy of the rules Compendium to see if they were changed there.