The LA-assignment thread III: Now in HD!

[InvisibleBison]

About regeneration: The sidebar on page 54 of the DMG shows that a character is expected to spend about 665 gp on consumables while they are 6th level. A hypothetical barbarian with 16 Constitution would have 62 HP. Assuming that a full 25% of his HP was spent in each of the 13 encounters he had while he was 6th level, he would have to spend 19 charges of a wand of lesser vigor to heal between fights, which would cost 285 gp - significantly less than what he has available, but not enough to have a major impact when freed up to be spent elsewhere by a troll's regeneration.

Given the above, and the fact that compared to a PHB race a troll is much worse at most or all non-combat activities, I think trolls merit a +0.

[Malimar]

...How would the rest of the party being reliant on endless use abilities make Trolls more useful? They're at their most useful as a beatstick when your party's healing options are all limited-use, just like how it works with Crusaders. When the rest of the party has resource limits, the Troll having functionally endless health outside of two energy types, and immunity to two energy types is a cheaper than the pile of other defences against HP damage the conventional beatstick needs, becomes a major advantage.

I think the reasoning is that if you're stopping for an 8-hour nap every 15 minutes to accommodate the wizard anyway, your ability to go all day without a rest is wasted.

[Remuko]

Im gonna have to go with +0, the +stats are nice but dont warrant 6 mediocre HD. Regen is being vastly overstated here. Just because some things cant kill you doesnt mean you cant lose and the rest of the party can't die. I don't think 6 HD weak regen and those penalties to all mental stats are worth +1 LA much less more.

[Caelestion]

I'm never gonna give up this thread, as it's never gonna let me down...

[lord_khaine]

Honestly, nothing less than LA+2 would do. And even then your massively ahead of the human martials in your party.
Being large is a big advantage when you want to hurt people with physical violence. Having a massive strenght boost is an advantage. Having much better armor class though boosted Dex and NA is an advantage.
And having a lot more HP, and not dying from most forms of injury is a MASSIVE advantage. In almost all cases, as long as the party wins, your going to survive.

Then to spice things up a bit, then the troll also got scent and darkvision.

Yeah it does take a hit to its mental stats, but thats a lot less relevant for when your building a melee crushing machine. And the hit to int is not that big that you cant afford to buy away the skill point penalty.
Just looking at the basic level 6 troll, then i cant really see any regular martial builds that could be played without feeling shadowed by the troll.

[ExLibrisMortis]

They're pretty much worse than ogre mages (ECL 7 by this thread). Regeneration and strength make for a good beatstick, but they're unimpressive in any other department. Regeneration does not win encounters, or even particularly help survival at ECL 6 (you won't technically be dead, but you will lose). +0 or -0 is fair.

[lord_khaine]

They're pretty much worse than ogre mages (ECL 7 by this thread). Regeneration and strength make for a good beatstick, but they're unimpressive in any other department. Regeneration does not win encounters, or even particularly help survival at ECL 6 (you won't technically be dead, but you will lose). +0 or -0 is fair.

It most certainly does a lot to increase survivability. This is normally played as a team game. There should be expected to be around 2-4 other party members. And regeneration eliminates the most common cause of death i have seen. Loss of HP from a sudden axe crit, or missing a pair of reflex saves.

[Blue Jay]

Personally, I feel like Regeneration is a big deal, even if it's just 5 hp/round. But, I'm getting the sense that the players who are big into optimizing disagree with me, so I have to wonder if it's just my inexperience that makes Regeneration seem potent to me. Even with the talk of how it affects the party's healing resources or the chance of avoiding a TPK, I can't quite get past how it narrows the window of things that can take you down.

I've never really played in a brutal game where a total party kill was a legitimate threat from anything except the BBEG. If I compile all the games I've ever played or DMed, I think PC's have, like a 90-95% survival rate. I'm DMing for an Oslecamo troll right now: it's in an adventure with no real enemy spellcasters, and I'm finding that I often have to make adjustments to my encounters to account for his Regeneration. So, to me, it seems like an ability that has a fair amount of impact on the game.

Still, I don't know that I have enough experience with Regeneration to be sure how powerful it really is. It still feels potent to me, and it's not particularly easy to get without committing to troll fluff, so I'd probably pull for LA +1 on the troll, just to be conservative. At any rate, I don't think LA +2 is necessary.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It most certainly does a lot to increase survivability. This is normally played as a team game. There should be expected to be around 2-4 other party members. And regeneration eliminates the most common cause of death i have seen. Loss of HP from a sudden axe crit, or missing a pair of reflex saves.

The rest of the party is exactly the reason regeneration doesn't help a lot more than fast healing. It doesn't matter whether you're dead or alive: when you're splattered across the ground at -100 hp, the rest of the party has absolutely no use for you. You're saving a few gp on the revivify cost, but that is not a major benefit.

Character immortality is not a useful ability for the party or most encounters. Except at the largest scale, it is strictly a flavour thing, where you substitute "regenerate" for "resurrect" or "replace".


@Blue Jay: In what sense do you have to adjust for regeneration? Do you focus-fire at the troll, to overcome its healing, or do you use lethal damage specifically? If it's the latter, there's no need to do that. Trolls are useless at negative (effective) hp, just like anyone else.

[Amidus Drexel]

Personally, I feel like Regeneration is a big deal, even if it's just 5 hp/round. But, I'm getting the sense that the players who are big into optimizing disagree with me, so I have to wonder if it's just my inexperience that makes Regeneration seem potent to me. Even with the talk of how it affects the party's healing resources or the chance of avoiding a TPK, I can't quite get past how it narrows the window of things that can take you down.

I've never really played in a brutal game where a total party kill was a legitimate threat from anything except the BBEG. If I compile all the games I've ever played or DMed, I think PC's have, like a 90-95% survival rate. I'm DMing for an Oslecamo troll right now: it's in an adventure with no real enemy spellcasters, and I'm finding that I often have to make adjustments to my encounters to account for his Regeneration. So, to me, it seems like an ability that has a fair amount of impact on the game.

Still, I don't know that I have enough experience with Regeneration to be sure how powerful it really is. It still feels potent to me, and it's not particularly easy to get without committing to troll fluff, so I'd probably pull for LA +1 on the troll, just to be conservative. At any rate, I don't think LA +2 is necessary.

As someone who's played characters with fast healing (although not regeneration), I think I can comment on this a little bit (regeneration is better in most cases and worse in a few - with fire and acid damage being as common as they are, I'd say troll regeneration is probably only marginally better than fast healing against unintelligent enemies, and strictly worse against intelligent ones).

At a low levels (and even mid levels, to an extent), it makes a pretty big difference - a level 8 or lower character probably has less than 100hp, and getting back 5hp/round represents a significant fraction of their health. At around level 12 and higher, the health regen doesn't make that big of a difference. Chances are, you're not going to die from hp damage in any given fight regardless of whether you have regeneration or not - and if you do, the rest of your party is probably going to be in rough shape whether you're dead for 5 days or unconscious for 5 rounds. Most of the benefit for a PC is conserving daily resources between fights, and the bonus to survivability that you'll get from taking nonlethal instead of lethal damage.

--
That said, I'd give the troll LA+0 or (maybe) a weak LA+1. As powerful as regeneration can be in the hands of a PC, it's a CR 5 monster with 6 HD, and it can pretty much do one thing.

At ECL 7, a crusader (which is probably the closest point of comparison) is going to hit harder and more often (and a reasonably well-built one will take about the same amount of hits), and even if you gave the troll initiator levels, it's still going to lag in damage output because of its low BAB (fewer iteratives) and lower-level maneuvers. I think they're probably about even at ECL 6 - the troll might have a better to-hit bonus, but it'll have fewer attacks (with a manufactured weapon) or worse damage per attack (with its claws), and I suspect that'll bear out as you level up both sides.

[Nifft]

I would say +2, but no chance of that ever passing, so voting for +1 as well.

IIRC the final result is more of an average than a consensus vote, so picking +2 isn't a risk of handing the victory to +0 instead of +1.

Vote your convictions.

[ViperMagnum357]

Troll...Giant HD are really bad, but not Ooze or Undead bad. Think of it like this-a troll trades its advantages of a base race for large size with 30ft base speed, low-light vision, and +2 Dex, with -4 Int and Cha and -2 Wis. Each of its six levels as a class level with D8, 2+Int skills, 3/4 BAB and good Fort. Each level in this class provides +2 Str and Con, +2 Dex at first level and +1 natural AC on subsequent levels, and a special ability: 2 Claw attacks, 1 bite attack, Scent, Rend, 90ft Darkvision, and Regeneration. I think most non-initiator martials would at least consider dipping into such a class, and as a base race with LA 0 gaining large size and +2 Dex in return for mental penalties would be appealing. Together I would say a strong LA+1, maybe LA+2 in a low magic campaign where the only reasonable way for many critters to threaten the PC is to beat them unconscious and drown them.

[Blue Jay]

@Blue Jay: In what sense do you have to adjust for regeneration? Do you focus-fire at the troll, to overcome its healing, or do you use lethal damage specifically? If it's the latter, there's no need to do that. Trolls are useless at negative (effective) hp, just like anyone else.

So far, it's mostly swarm tactics, but I've modified a couple future encounters to include the threat of lethal damage. It's one of those online games with a central "recruiting office" where a collection of PC's can apply to missions run by different DM's, and it uses a lot of high-power options like Oslecamo, gestalt and max hp/HD. So, I spend a large portion of my time as DM trying to calibrate my sense of party-appropriate challenges.

As someone who's played characters with fast healing (although not regeneration), I think I can comment on this a little bit (regeneration is better in most cases and worse in a few - with fire and acid damage being as common as they are, I'd say troll regeneration is probably only marginally better than fast healing against unintelligent enemies, and strictly worse against intelligent ones).

At a low levels (and even mid levels, to an extent), it makes a pretty big difference...

I've played with Fast Healing plenty of times, and my current impression is that Regeneration will probably be pretty equivalent to that in terms of power. Compared to FH, Regeneration has explicit damage-type weaknesses balanced by some specific protections and special-case benefits. To me, both offer enough of a power bump during the single-digit levels that they often will have a non-trivial effect on a character's power and versatility. So, in most cases, they should warrant a modest LA, especially if you get it with a respectable bundle of melee stats.

Then again, it seems the balance strategy for this thread is more focused on what you get at high levels rather than at low levels, and I have limited experience with high-level campaigns. I guess it's not hard to see how the benefits of Regeneration will lose their importance at mid- to high levels.

If there's LA buyoff, I'll probably stick with LA +1. Without LA buyoff, I bet LA +0 is manageable too. I'm not committed, either way.

[javcs]

Trolls ...

It's good at only one thing - melee beatsticking. It sucks at pretty much everything else.
The Wisdom penalty makes you worse at Will Saves - which is generally the best way to target melee beatsticks.


I feel like regeneration bypassed by fire is probably not that useful against even semi-intelligent entities, or at least most of them, that are capable of using fire. Either they're cooking you for food, or they're falling back on possibly the second or third oldest method of killing or driving off enemies - fire. When in doubt, set it on fire. Waving torches/burning sticks at the eyes in the darkness to drive away predators. If sticks and rocks don't work, try fire.



Trolls are only ever going to be good at melee combat. They can't really contribute to a party's activities in any other capacity, and will be a detriment in others.

They're probably about an above average LA +0 Tier 4-specialized equivalent, roughly speaking. Strong at their one thing, but pretty much useless outside it. Eh, at T4, maybe trolls are actually a slightly higher LA.

[No brains]

I think if trolls were +0. I would be eager to give them a try. At +1, I'd still be interested. At +2, I would probably pass them up.

Pros:
Their +6 to hit from STR makes up for their 4 BAB, netting them +3 over a 7th-level human melee character, but they pull ahead in damage. Their +6 HP from CON makes up for their d8 HD, netting them +2 HP/ level over a human barbarian. The extra dex more than makes up for the size penalty to AC. Regeneration is nifty.

Cons:
-4 INT massacres skill points, leaving them with two fewer skills all the time. -2 WIS means that they have weaker Will saves and poorer senses, compounded by possibly not having the skills to take Spot/ Listen in the first place, making Scent (and with your extra HP, touch) into your only sensory option rather than a true benefit.

I think Large size and -4 CHA are sort of neutral. They create equal fun and problems.

Trolls seem pretty good, but I wonder if their natural traits really constitute a substitute for 6 levels of class features. I would TRY a +1 LA.

[Hish]

I'd definitely go at least +1. Large size and ability bonuses are great for a bruiser, and regeneration is a big bonus. A troll would be better than a sixth level martial. And bonuses to important stats mean you can afford a few points of your point buy for intelligence.

[ZamielVanWeber]

+1 feels about right to me, although I could definitely feel +0 could be warrented. Giant type is good, giant hit dice are not, great bruiser everything is good but the utterly narrow utility is pretty meh. Regeneration is not as sexy as it looks from a PC standpoint.

Call me a weak +1 or a strong +0.

[Remuko]

Since people are throwing around accusations of optimizing I'll let people in on the level of optimization I played at/with and people can recheck my rating. The table I played at, when I played a warlock for the first time, before I ever found this forum or even dreamed of optimizing past stacking +flat dmg FEATS, my group felt my infinite supply of 3d6 eldritch blasts was brokenly OP. yeah. Hell in a later game I played a druid who specializes in cold descriptor spells and mostly just spams the ice magic reserve feat in combat and they thought I was strong. So when I say the regen isn't worth a +1 LA on a race that comes with 6 mandatory HD I'm most definitely not coming from a HighOP/PO/TO mindset at all.

[Thurbane]

COMMENTS
LA DEBATE

[No brains]

You could say, "This thread has devolved into regressive trolling."

I'll just sigh at myself.

[Nifft]

Since people are throwing around accusations of optimizing

IMHO the optimization "accusations" are a bit of a red herring.

A Troll is appropriate in a T4 game. So, to me, the appropriate measures are T3 to T5 characters (Totemist, Barbarian, Crusader, Scout).

If your game is T1, there's no appropriate LA which will make a Troll viable. That's not a matter of optimization, though -- you can play optimized T1 or you can play optimization T4, and both are optimal within their tier.

[IMG
(..)
LA DEBATE[/B][/SIZE][/FONT]

You could say, "This thread has devolved into regressive trolling."

I'll just sigh at myself.

Now, now.

No need to throw gasoline on the sparks.

[Thurbane]

You could say, "This thread has devolved into regressive trolling."

I'll just sigh at myself.

Now, now.

No need to throw gasoline on the sparks.

[Zancloufer]

Surprised no on has brought up scent yet. Trolls have Scent. That is pretty good, makes them hard to sneak past and investing in perception skills less critical. It's stat mods more than offset it's penalties for sub-par RHD and size increase on the physical side of things. Regen means at the very least you don't have to worry abut HP damage from 80% of sources putting you down for good.

Tempted to say LA+1. If LA buy-off is on the table +1 for sure. Though it still has 6, 6 RHD with essentially no skill points and as such it's only real advancement is into something like Barbarian, Crusader and/or Fighter.

[zlefin]

I'm quite fine with either 0 or +1 (amending my earlier note, which wasn't really a vote per se, more of a comment). I don't have a strong enough sense of benchmarking to say which.

as a very minor note, due to regen, if a troll receives magical healing during combat, it heals not just some of their lethal damage they'v etaken, but an equal amount of the non-lethal they've taken, thus bringing them away from unconsciousness faster (if they've taken any non-lethal at all).

While a lot of creatures will have a way to deal fire damage, that's different from being able to do enough of it to clear out all the troll's hp that way. More likely most enemies will still be doing some non-lethal mixed in.

troll's kinda feel high-floor low-ceiling compared to classes; not sure about that, but they kinda feel that way.

[Thurbane]

Anyone playing a troll is very likely to invest in some kind of defense against fire and/or acid. Either bumming Resist/Protection from Energy from a party member, or investing in items.

Regeneration, in my experience, isn't quite the small-potatoes deal that some might think it is. I mean, you're not going to break the game like a Tier 1 caster, but it's still a very solid defensive ability.

You're not exactly a slouch in offensive capability, either (at least compared to other martial characters): +12 strength, reach, large size, natural attacks, rend...

I firmly stand by my earlier call of strong LA +1. You could still well and truly hit BAB +16 by ECL 20, even at LA +2.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Surprised no on has brought up scent yet. Trolls have Scent. That is pretty good, makes them hard to sneak past and investing in perception skills less critical. It's stat mods more than offset it's penalties for sub-par RHD and size increase on the physical side of things. Regen means at the very least you don't have to worry abut HP damage from 80% of sources putting you down for good.

Scent is floating around a few places far more cheaply. I mean, it is a nice feature but it seems like a blip compared to other options.

Anyone playing a troll is very likely to invest in some kind of defense against fire and/or acid. Either bumming Resist/Protection from Energy from a party member, or investing in items.

I had a campaign where a party member had troll-blooded and gave himself immunity to fire and acid and the DM could still explode him if he so desired. Regen > no regen but it has limits.

[Celestia]

Just a note, immunity to fire and acid probably won't save a troll's life. If the enemy is capable of disabling the troll anyways, it's still dead. Just deal non lethal until it's unconscious then remove whatever ring/other item gives the immunity. If it's from a spell, keep pounding the troll until it has enough negative hit points to stay unconscious until the spell wears off. If the troll gets beaten, it's a simple matter to finish it off.

[ViperMagnum357]

^That, or leave them facedown in a puddle of water. Drowning is probably the simplest way a monster is likely to finish off a regenerating PC if they lack the means to easily deal lethal damage.

[Thurbane]

Or throw a Sphere of Annihilation at him, that will render Regeneration worthless...

[Luccan]

I mean, yeah, if all your friends are also incapacitated or leave you to die, you're done for, but if that doesn't happen, the likelihood they'll let the bad guys remove your magic items or hold your head underwater until you drown is pretty slim.

Edit: I'm not gonna say Regeneration beats everything, because of course it doesn't, but most things in the game have a work around that is "your friends can't/won't help you" or "Magic overpowers whatever it is you can do because it's magic"