OOTS #1088 - The Discussion Thread

[Cap_Hardman]

That's funny... My rpg group name is The Order Of Look-Out-Roy-The-Vampire'S-Not-Really-Durkon!

[woweedd]

LE is quite possible since she's caught in a very bad bet and is working within the rules of it instead of cheating.

That's mainly because the other Gods will retaliate in kind if she breaks the rules and, with her lesser power base, she'd pretty surely lose. Even a Chaotic character can tell when the benefits of following the law outweigh the negatives and this is one such case.

[a_flemish_guy]

That's mainly because the other Gods will retaliate in kind if she breaks the rules and, with her lesser power base, she'd pretty surely lose. Even a Chaotic character can tell when the benefits of following the law outweigh the negatives and this is one such case.

yeah, there's a massive difference between sticking to the rules because you feel you should or because you fear the consequences if you do

I would peg hel as NE

the f-HPOH is clearly LE, he enjoys screwing people over while simultaniously sticking within the rules too much to be anything else

[Chei]

That's mainly because the other Gods will retaliate in kind if she breaks the rules and, with her lesser power base, she'd pretty surely lose. Even a Chaotic character can tell when the benefits of following the law outweigh the negatives and this is one such case.

Yeah, even Loki, certified CE, pushed for a 'No-Backsies' rule for the moots, showing that laws and rules aren't Kryptonite to chaotics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

yeah, there's a massive difference between sticking to the rules because you feel you should or because you fear the consequences if you do

I would peg hel as NE

On the other hand, Loki targeted Hel for a reason. I get the same feeling about the "bet" as I get from RC's three Xykon's ruse: that Loki crafted the bet knowing that Hel would instinctively believe that the implied rule ("the dwarves' won't know about the heroic death loophole") would be respected, just as RC expected the Paladins to believe the implied rule "One of the three is Xykon".

In other words, it looks like a bet, but it is not: it was a con. A con works best when the target is Legal.

Grey Wolf

[xroads]

This may be just wishful thinking, but me thinks Durkon may have found a way to manipulate Durkula. Bravo Durkon!

[PeglegJim]

This may be just wishful thinking, but me thinks Durkon may have found a way to manipulate Durkula. Bravo Durkon!

I mean it's been implied in the last couple comics with them soooo there's still hope!

[Chei]

I mean it's been implied in the last couple comics with them soooo there's still hope!

Heh. This reminds me of something from the last book.

The current page showed that Durkula is starting to be on guard against Durkon. He's ready to believe that Durkon is lying or omitting the truth at any moment.

What do you do when someone is completely invested in the idea you're trying to lie?

Double bluff.

[woweedd]

On the other hand, Loki targeted Hel for a reason. I get the same feeling about the "bet" as I get from RC's three Xykon's ruse: that Loki crafted the bet knowing that Hel would instinctively believe that the implied rule ("the dwarves' won't know about the heroic death loophole") would be respected, just as RC expected the Paladins to believe the implied rule "One of the three is Xykon".

In other words, it looks like a bet, but it is not: it was a con. A con works best when the target is Legal.

Grey Wolf

Insightful argument, my friend.

[woweedd]

Heh. This reminds me of something from the last book.

The current page showed that Durkula is starting to be on guard against Durkon. He's ready to believe that Durkon is lying or omitting the truth at any moment.

What do you do when someone is completely invested in the idea you're trying to lie?

Double bluff.

Reverse psychology.

[elros]

Durkon cannot show false memories, but the vampire (Greg?) is influenced by them.
The first memories Greg absorbed were the "lowest, darkest moments of the host's life", where it was clear that Durkon had unresolved resentment toward those that exiled him. But now Greg is learning the moments where Durkon is happy with his family and has real affection for them.
Greg even acknowledged that a different vampire could have rejected Hel's plans from the start (same comic as the above link, last line), so I think it is possible that Greg could rebel against Durkon, too.
I think that the big reveal will not be a monster or an ambush, but Durkon's family. If Greg ever tries to attack Durkon's Mom, it may be enough for the real Durkon to regain control.

[xroads]

I think that the big reveal will not be a monster or an ambush, but Durkon's family. If Greg ever tries to attack Durkon's Mom, it may be enough for the real Durkon to regain control.

I doubt it. I think Durkon would believe he was putting his mom at too much risk. Not only would he be gambling on being able to take control, but he'd also be gambling on being able to handle the three other vampires immediately afterwards.

[Psyren]

Durkon cannot show false memories, but the vampire (Greg?) is influenced by them.
The first memories Greg absorbed were the "lowest, darkest moments of the host's life", where it was clear that Durkon had unresolved resentment toward those that exiled him. But now Greg is learning the moments where Durkon is happy with his family and has real affection for them.
Greg even acknowledged that a different vampire could have rejected Hel's plans from the start (same comic as the above link, last line), so I think it is possible that Greg could rebel against Durkon, too.
I think that the big reveal will not be a monster or an ambush, but Durkon's family. If Greg ever tries to attack Durkon's Mom, it may be enough for the real Durkon to regain control.

I'd be very surprised if that happened, given that Malack had no qualms about drinking his brothers. I could see Durkon's mom playing a role though, such as distracting him during a pivotal moment as he's battling Roy.

[happycrow]

Love the view of Durkon's family. A lot of really interesting people and it fleshes out Durkon to be something more than a grumpy healbot, a "support beam", in the HPOH's words.

Durkon is playing the same game he did with Miko back in Azure City -- while he will not lie he is a master of telling less than the full truth. In a way, his lawful upbringing is good practice for him. He can't lie to the vampire, but that's okay because he hasn't been able to lie his whole life. He's a master at misleading through omitted information, I think.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

THIS is how I use WIS in psycho-spiritual combat!

[White Magic]

Unfortunately, it seems like the positivity itself doesn't affect the vampire. However, the vampire learns less from positive memories, it seems, because he doesn't understand positive relationships very well. Durkon learned much earlier in the book that the vampire is not guaranteed to learn what Durkon himself learned from his own memories. He's been slowly using that to his advantage.

Agreed. Un*Durkon would, if he could, just "Yarf"

[8BitNinja]

That's funny... My rpg group name is The Order Of Look-Out-Roy-The-Vampire'S-Not-Really-Durkon!

Yeah, and mine had a part of a campaign where the High Priest of Hel got stuck outside of the godsmoot because of a crumbled up rock

[goto124]

Agreed. Un*Durkon would, if he could, just "Yarf"

Just realized that Baby Durkon has a few strands of hair on his chin. Dwarf boys really grow their beards fast.

[a_flemish_guy]

On the other hand, Loki targeted Hel for a reason. I get the same feeling about the "bet" as I get from RC's three Xykon's ruse: that Loki crafted the bet knowing that Hel would instinctively believe that the implied rule ("the dwarves' won't know about the heroic death loophole") would be respected, just as RC expected the Paladins to believe the implied rule "One of the three is Xykon".

In other words, it looks like a bet, but it is not: it was a con. A con works best when the target is Legal.

Grey Wolf

I don't think hel instinctively believed there to be such a rule but that she was too blinded by the price on offer to notice that loophole

hel strikes me as being quite greedy and arrogant which already really makes her the perfect target for a con, the best targets are those who think they're smarter then you

[woweedd]

I don't think hel instinctively believed there to be such a rule but that she was too blinded by the price on offer to notice that loophole

hel strikes me as being quite greedy and arrogant which already really makes her the perfect target for a con, the best targets are those who think they're smarter then you

Indeed. Thinking you're too smart to fall for a con is one of the easiest ways TO fall for a con. That said, even if someone IS smart, that has little to do with how easy they are to con. That all depends on how many emotions and desires of theirs can be exploited and played on. In Hel's case. it was Greed, but almost every emotion can be exploited in one way or another. You just need the right message...Sorry for the tangent. I've read up on how con artists work and it's chilling stuff.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Pretty sure the undead can't get drunk.

Nah, I'm sure they can, but they probably taste terrible and are less satisfying than a living being getting drunk.

Indeed. Thinking you're too smart to fall for a con is one of the easiest ways TO fall for a con. That said, even if someone IS smart, that has little to do with how easy they are to con. That all depends on how many emotions and desires of theirs can be exploited and played on. In Hel's case. it was Greed, but almost every emotion can be exploited in one way or another. You just need the right message...Sorry for the tangent. I've read up on how con artists work and it's chilling stuff.

Actually, the best cons are the ones where the victim cons themself or are based on laziness of the victims (See: Frank Abagnale's many cons)

[Peelee]

Actually, the best cons are the ones where the victim cons themself or are based on laziness of the victims (See: Frank Abagnale's many cons)

OK, I have to take issue with this. I don't think his cons were based on people being lazy, rather than people simply believing what they were presented with. And Abagnale (Jr., btw) was a freaking master of knowing what people would expect and presenting that to them For instance, he once got a security officer's uniform, went to a bank's night deposit box, hung an "out of order" sign on it, and spent the night getting envelopes of cash from people who came up, saw the box ostensibly out of order, saw the night guard put there to make sure people could still make night deposits, and didn't give it a second thought. Because we all trust strangers with a lot more of our information than any of us really care to think about.

[Psychronia]

Pretty sure the undead can't get drunk.

No wonder they're so bitter then. What's a dwarf of any kind if it can't get drunk?

And I love the image of Elan doing math in the background.

"I'm done Roy! What do you think?"
"Elan, we've been over this. Finding X is not an expression for a treasure hunt!"


I have to wonder, actually. If vampires are incapable of growth or connecting the dots like this, then would Greg have suspected anything if Durkon actually somehow gave him false information like that?

Whatever the case, Durkon is definitely trying some misdirection now, and it's fantastic. It makes me wonder if he'll learn some new tactical approach for battles if he ever gets revived. Regardless, I still happy that he's back in "the game" in his own way.

[Gift Jeraff]

Everything Durkon has shown to Durkula/HPOH/Gr*g has been a false memory because it's always been in third person. And no, OOTS characters do not see from the perspective of the fourth wall:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html

[georgie_leech]

Everything Durkon has shown to Durkula/HPOH/Gr*g has been a false memory because it's always been in third person. And no, OOTS characters do not see from the perspective of the fourth wall:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the third-person perspective in literally every memory ever shown in the comic is to make following the memory easier for readers, rather than evidence the memory is false or fabricated. Unless you're just being pedantic about it technically not being what was experienced, in which case carry on

[Keltest]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the third-person perspective in literally every memory ever shown in the comic is to make following the memory easier for readers, rather than evidence the memory is false or fabricated. Unless you're just being pedantic about it technically not being what was experienced, in which case carry on

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Gift Jeraff was not being entirely serious when he said that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I get the feeling Durkon's vampire is gonna need to drink something stronger than blood, at this rate.

Dwarven blood? I hear it's at least 20-proof even when they're sober.

What kind of fortress has a banquet hall on the outside of its strongest gate?

Well, if you can't fit a banquet hall inside the strongest fortifications, the next-best thing is to have a banquet hall in easy fleeing distance of those fortifications.

Bards. You have to take Improved Spell Capacity three times, Heighten Spell, and convince the DM that being able to heighten a spell to 9th level with the 9th-level slot means you meet the "can cast 9th-level arcane spells" requirement for the Epic Spellcasting feat.

If we're going outside the full casters, we might as well skip straight to rangers and paladins (who need every ability score except for Intelligence and Charisma/Dexterity, and only get 4th-level spells).

"I'm done Roy! What do you think?"
"Elan, we've been over this. Finding X is not an expression for a treasure hunt!"

"I dunno why you're complaining."

Everything Durkon has shown to Durkula/HPOH/Gr*g has been a false memory because it's always been in third person.

All memories are false memories, to one extent or another. That's just how the brain works. The question is, can Durkon show things as he doesn't remember them? And the answer is "No".

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Gift Jeraff was not being entirely serious when he said that.

If you're citing sources, you're probably serious.

[Gift Jeraff]

All memories are false memories, to one extent or another. That's just how the brain works. The question is, can Durkon show things as he doesn't remember them? And the answer is "No".

Durkon's soul is providing the memories, not his brain.

[Chei]

If we're going outside the full casters, we might as well skip straight to rangers and paladins (who need every ability score except for Intelligence and Charisma/Dexterity, and only get 4th-level spells).

Paladins and Rangers don't have Spellcraft as class skills, so they'd need 24 cross-class skill ranks for Epic Spellcasting, as well.

[Jasdoif]

If we're going outside the full casters, we might as well skip straight to rangers and paladins (who need every ability score except for Intelligence and Charisma/Dexterity, and only get 4th-level spells).

Hm. I suppose there may be definitions for "full caster" other than "has a caster level equal to their class level".

[Peelee]

If you're citing sources, you're probably serious.

False. See here.