Proposed Dice Mechanic change

[Ravian]

So I've often been in the conundrum that I've always been a huge fan of the World of Darkness settings, but very early on I've discovered that I really am not a fan of the systems, old, new or chronicles. I've tried them multiple times but they've always felt too clunky for me to run or play in. It's been frustrating since World of Darkness simply has so many different mechanics that it can be annoying to try to adapt them to a different system that I enjoy.

So I've been making an effort to identify what specifically was my issue with the system with an effort to try to enjoy the settings more easily.

Eventually I landed on the reason, almost everything in the system clicked for me except for the core dice resolution mechanic. It's a fundamental disconnect between how I set task difficulties and how the game sets them. In general I prefer to see the dice results and then judge the degree of success based on the results, in many cases I might not actually be sure of what sort of bonuses and penalties I might be applying until after the dice is rolled. This is in part because I do admit to often fudging roll results for the benefit of the narrative. But it's also because my group is generally just a fan of rolling dice that often the results are on the table before I've figured everything out about the task.

Unfortunately, WoD's dice mechanic doesn't work for my playstyle. For one the results are very binary. If you have one success, in most cases you succeed with the only variations from there being dramatic successes and failures. The other element is that bonuses and penalties are front-loaded. If the task is more difficult to accomplish, this is accomplished by taking away a few dice from the pool before they are rolled, which means that I as the GM need to decide upon all the elements of the task before the dice themselves are rolled.

Some may be of the opinion that these are simply minor differences in the setting that I can easily adjust to, but I find that they're just presenting a bit of a block that I'm struggling to make the game run smoothly for me.

Thus I'm proposing a somewhat radical solution and that's to change the mechanic itself while trying to leave the rest of the system intact.

More specifically I'm proposing replacing the mechanic with a similar dice pool mechanic that I discovered, that being the one from 7th Sea 2nd edition. Both systems use a fundamentally similar dice pool system (which are even often of a similar size) and both usually require a single success to pass a test. The difference however is that where WoD determines successes based off of results of 8 or more, 7th Sea determines successes, or "raises" where dice results are paired to form groups of 10 or more.

Example:
In both systems a player rolls a pool of five dice and gets a 6,4,2,2,8
in WoD this pool offers a single success because one of the dice is 8 or over
in 7th Sea this pool offers two raises as the 6 and 4 and the 8 and 2 can be paired up to form sets of 10.

Obviously this means that in 7th Sea the barrier of success is lower, however to balance it out the system offers consequences and opportunities, which are other elements in a task that you can spend raises on, consequences do bad things if you don't spend raises on them whereas opportunities are optional good things you can get if you spend a raise on them. This means that success might be somewhat easy, but it's not always painless, offering more variation in task resolution.

The main reason I haven't implemented this system yet however is two-fold however. First of all, I'm trying to make sure that ripping out such a large part of the system won't make the rest of it fall apart, Second of all, 7th Sea is unapologetically a system for larger than life heroes and swashbuckling, so I want to make sure that it won't destroy the theme of a horror game like WoD.

Any thoughts on any unintended consequences for using this alternate system for WoD?

[Grod_The_Giant]

If your group is consistently jumping the gun on rolls, you could try applying ad-hoc modifiers directly to the number of successes (ie, "that sounds good, have a bonus success" rather than "that sounds good, have an extra die"). Or just refuse to acknowledge rolls made before you actually call for them.

As for binary results... I'm not familiar with WoD, but I've played other Storyteller games, and isn't a large part of the point of a success-counting system that it's not binary? That you can go "well, you needed three successes and rolled six, guess something extra good happens," or "you only rolled two; if you want, you can succeed at a cost..."

[Ravian]

If your group is consistently jumping the gun on rolls, you could try applying ad-hoc modifiers directly to the number of successes (ie, "that sounds good, have a bonus success" rather than "that sounds good, have an extra die"). Or just refuse to acknowledge rolls made before you actually call for them.

As for binary results... I'm not familiar with WoD, but I've played other Storyteller games, and isn't a large part of the point of a success-counting system that it's not binary? That you can go "well, you needed three successes and rolled six, guess something extra good happens," or "you only rolled two; if you want, you can succeed at a cost..."

One would think that but as far as I can tell with WoD there's only Success: At least one die in the pool at 8 or higher
and Exceptional Success: Five or more successes rolled.

Mechanically there's no difference between rolling one success or four successes. (Except I believe with opposed tests where the winner is typically the one who got more successes.)

Obviously I could apply the opportunities and consequences system to the basic roll 8 or higher mechanic but it's clear that that mechanic was specifically designed where the challenge is supposed to be getting that single success (when every die only has a 30% chance of success a task becomes significantly harder when it requires multiple successes.) The groups of 10 mechanic by comparison expects that characters will have a few raises to spend and instead has the challenge be more of resource management deciding where to best apply those raises to avoid consequences and enjoy opportunities.

[Thrawn4]

Mechanically there's no difference between rolling one success or four

My experience is limited to the Old World of Darkness but I think you're doing it wrong.
I would also like to add that if you players Roll before they are meant to do so that the no system is going to fix that. you should talk to your players about it last.
Lastly I do not understand why you can't wait with the role until you have determined the modifiers.

[Ravian]

My experience is limited to the Old World of Darkness but I think you're doing it wrong.
I would also like to add that if you players Roll before they are meant to do so that the no system is going to fix that. you should talk to your players about it last.
Lastly I do not understand why you can't wait with the role until you have determined the modifiers.

This what I can see from the Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook, I don't know if it's different in oWoD as I'm not as familiar with that system

Spoiler: ChoD Roll Results (pg 69)

Show

Roll Results
Your roll can succeed and fail in a few different ways:
Success: Your character’s action goes off as planned.
Achieved by having at least one success (a die showing 8, 9,
or 10; or a chance die showing 10).

Failure: Your character’s action fails. This doesn’t mean
“nothing happens,” just that she doesn’t get what she wants
and complications are headed her way. Occurs when you
roll no successes.

Exceptional Success: Your character’s action succeeds
beyond her expectations. Achieved by rolling five or more
successes. Your character gains a beneficial Condition. (See
“Conditions,” p. 75.) Usually, the Inspired Condition is the
most appropriate. You can give this Condition to another
character when it’s appropriate to the story.

Dramatic Failure: Your character fails badly, and things
are about to get a whole lot worse. Suffered when you roll
a 1 on a chance die. Alternately, once per scene, you can
take a Beat in exchange for turning a normal failure into a
dramatic failure.

Unless I'm missing something, on a regular task there is functionally no difference between rolling 1 success or 4 successes, as both are effectively a success and it only begins to matter when five are rolled.

Also understand that I don't actually have a problem with the speed with which they roll, I prefer to figure things out from the dice results in front of me. WoD is just one of the few systems that directly contradicts that play-style that I and my players are comfortable with.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Yes, oWoD and CoD run on fundamentally different systems with vaguely similar mechanics, but you can't ever assume something true for one is true for another.

Edit: note what it says for Failure though: It doesn't mean they didn't do what they wanted, it could just mean that some other bad thing happens. If someone is trying to jump across a gap between buildings and they fail the roll, they don't HAVE to tumble into the street, they could fall on the other side, or catch themselves on the side of the building and wind themselves, or something else like you want.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Another potential downside to this proposed mechanic change is increased time in resolving dice rolls, rather than decreasing them.

I don't think it's particularly difficult to figure out the dice pool in any of the Storyteller systems I've played, including the older games that have variable difficulties AND dice pool adjustments.

Before making such a huge change to the mechanics I suggest you give an honest attempt at determining dice pools and difficulty before the roll (disqualifying any roll made before you give final say on modifiers) for a few sessions. If you still have difficulty doing this then there's no harm trying out something different if your players all agree to it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One would think that but as far as I can tell with WoD there's only Success: At least one die in the pool at 8 or higher
and Exceptional Success: Five or more successes rolled.

Mechanically there's no difference between rolling one success or four successes. (Except I believe with opposed tests where the winner is typically the one who got more successes.)

Obviously I could apply the opportunities and consequences system to the basic roll 8 or higher mechanic but it's clear that that mechanic was specifically designed where the challenge is supposed to be getting that single success (when every die only has a 30% chance of success a task becomes significantly harder when it requires multiple successes.) The groups of 10 mechanic by comparison expects that characters will have a few raises to spend and instead has the challenge be more of resource management deciding where to best apply those raises to avoid consequences and enjoy opportunities.

Hmm, okay. I did some googling, and from when I dug up, it looks like the system handles varying DCs by adjusting the size of the die pool, rather than the target number. My suggestion for hacking would be to flip that-- instead of applying, oh, a -2 penalty to the die pool, say that the task requires 2 successes. Then, when your player throws down five dice and comes up with two successes, you can say "that doesn't look like enough, you fail." That seems like it ought to address things neatly, rather than try and import a radically different system. (One which, to be honest, sounds like it wouldn't do much to help with your core problem).


*With 8-10 being a success, and a 10 counting double, each die has a 40% chance of a success; +2 dice is roughly equal to a static +1.

[fishyfishyfishy]

This what I can see from the Chronicles of Darkness Rulebook, I don't know if it's different in oWoD as I'm not as familiar with that system

Spoiler: ChoD Roll Results (pg 69)

Show

Roll Results
Your roll can succeed and fail in a few different ways:
Success: Your character’s action goes off as planned.
Achieved by having at least one success (a die showing 8, 9,
or 10; or a chance die showing 10).

Failure: Your character’s action fails. This doesn’t mean
“nothing happens,” just that she doesn’t get what she wants
and complications are headed her way. Occurs when you
roll no successes.

Exceptional Success: Your character’s action succeeds
beyond her expectations. Achieved by rolling five or more
successes. Your character gains a beneficial Condition. (See
“Conditions,” p. 75.) Usually, the Inspired Condition is the
most appropriate. You can give this Condition to another
character when it’s appropriate to the story.

Dramatic Failure: Your character fails badly, and things
are about to get a whole lot worse. Suffered when you roll
a 1 on a chance die. Alternately, once per scene, you can
take a Beat in exchange for turning a normal failure into a
dramatic failure.

Unless I'm missing something, on a regular task there is functionally no difference between rolling 1 success or 4 successes, as both are effectively a success and it only begins to matter when five are rolled.

Also understand that I don't actually have a problem with the speed with which they roll, I prefer to figure things out from the dice results in front of me. WoD is just one of the few systems that directly contradicts that play-style that I and my players are comfortable with.

Extended actions and degrees of success are inherent aspects of the game. 1 - 4 successes on a normal action would not give you an exceptional success, but there is a sliding scale of success there that you as the ST should be giving in your descriptions of how actions are resolved. Jumping across rooftops, and scoring only 1 success means you only barely succeeded and tripped as you landed and now have to get back to your feet before continuing. 3 means you barely missed a beat but haven't gained any ground on your pursuit, and 5 means you've cleared a great deal of distance and gained significant ground on your target. A failure probably means you're hanging on the edge just short of falling, while a botch would mean you missed entirely.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah other than "roll X dice off of your character sheet and count how many result you get greater than Y", WoD (formerly OWoD) and CoD (formerly NWoD) are pretty fundamentally different. Honestly you might like the (old) World of Darkness system better because it handles difficulty by changing the target number on the dice, not your dice pool, so it's easier to fudge or change your mind on.

Example: player rolls 4 dice and comes up with 3 4 5 5 - no successes at the default difficulty of 6. However, you can say "well, you described that very well" or "the fog makes it easier to sneak, I guess" and say that the roll's difficulty is 5. You can, of course, do this before the roll if you want to be less obvious about fudging. On the other hand, you could also say "y'know, roll two or three extra dice" with the same justification in CoD. It's harder to take away dice after the fact, but if you're making things harder on your players after they rolled well, they're rightly going to complain anyway.

(Old) WoD also has a lot more mechanics for degrees of success. To the point where it's confusing because it's individually spelled out for every power and they did away with it in New/CoD to streamline the game, pretty much.

Now, you are missing several use cases where specific number of successes matter in New/CoD, too. Basically all of them except basic tests, in fact: contested rolls, extended rolls, and combat. Contested rolls involve comparing Your Successes to Other Guy's Successes. Extended rolls involve accumulating X successes over Y rolls. And of course, extra successes in combat translate to bonus damage (directly or indirectly depending on which edition of New/CoD). It's really fairly often where every success counts, just not every single roll like in (old) World of Darkness.

I have no idea if your system works or not as I haven't played 7th Sea, just making some observations

[Ravian]

Extended actions and degrees of success are inherent aspects of the game. 1 - 4 successes on a normal action would not give you an exceptional success, but there is a sliding scale of success there that you as the ST should be giving in your descriptions of how actions are resolved. Jumping across rooftops, and scoring only 1 success means you only barely succeeded and tripped as you landed and now have to get back to your feet before continuing. 3 means you barely missed a beat but haven't gained any ground on your pursuit, and 5 means you've cleared a great deal of distance and gained significant ground on your target. A failure probably means you're hanging on the edge just short of falling, while a botch would mean you missed entirely.

Yes but ultimately that's all just fluff and description, definitely relevant but ultimately it's still largely binary same as a d20 system. If the DC is 10 there's fundamentally no difference between rolling an 11 or a 19 aside from the GM describing how close you succeeded by.

In the system I'm proposing, jumping across rooftops may only require one success, however there's also a consequence wherein you slip at the edge and take a point of bashing damage as you skin your leg, and a consequence where you need to steady yourself at the end of your jump and your target begin to gain ground away from you. Finally there's also an opportunity where during your jump across you notice a shortcut that I can take during the next round of the chase.

It adds a lot more variability to the results (I roll two successes on that aforementioned jumping test, I need one to make the jump itself, do I use the second to keep pace, avoid injury, or take the short-cut?) and while it might seem like more work for the GM I've actually found that while I play 7th sea I'm actually better at determining these sorts of consequences and opportunities than I am at figuring out bonuses and penalties before the rolls in WoD.

[fishyfishyfishy]

In the system I'm proposing, jumping across rooftops may only require one success, however there's also a consequence wherein you slip at the edge and take a point of bashing damage as you skin your leg, and a consequence where you need to steady yourself at the end of your jump and your target begin to gain ground away from you. Finally there's also an opportunity where during your jump across you notice a shortcut that I can take during the next round of the chase.

To that I say:

Yes but ultimately that's all just fluff and description.

Seriously. All the things you described in that paragraph are perfectly emulated within the existing rules for Chronicles of Darkness. You basically just offered alternate descriptions to the simple leaping action I described in the post you quoted.

You're making up a problem that does not exist and creating an unnecessary solution. I think your real problem is something that will only be solved with experience. I refer you to my first post in this thread: give the rules an honest effort and see if it works as is before you make such a drastic alteration.

[Ravian]

Seriously. All the things you described in that paragraph are perfectly emulated within the existing rules for Chronicles of Darkness. You basically just offered alternate descriptions to the simple leaping action I described in the post you quoted.

You're making up a problem that does not exist and creating an unnecessary solution. I think your real problem is something that will only be solved with experience. I refer you to my first post in this thread: give the rules an honest effort and see if it works as is before you make such a drastic alteration.

I have made an honest effort at the rules, my players and I don't like them and they're now extremely reluctant to try anything that involves those rules again. I played through an entire short campaign through the summer as well as several unconnected adventures, before we came to this conclusion. This is not just a result of my inexperience with the rules it just doesn't flow well for our group.

And the main difference I'm seeing is that I attached discreet mechanics to the degrees of success while your scenario just used different narration to describe the same result (the character jumps the gap).

The biggest reason I worry about modifying things from the other side is because successes in WoD are inherently more valuable than raw dice. Take away two dice before the roll is a penalty for sure, but its a heavier penalty if you levy a requirement of three successes to accomplish things cleanly. I simply worry that my change would increase the difficulty of the WoD mechanic to a much larger degree than I am prepared for.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The biggest reason I worry about modifying things from the other side is because successes in WoD are inherently more valuable than raw dice. Take away two dice before the roll is a penalty for sure, but its a heavier penalty if you levy a requirement of three successes to accomplish things cleanly. I simply worry that my change would increase the difficulty of the WoD mechanic to a much larger degree than I am prepared for.

Slightly. It's fairly easy to convert back and forth-- One die is equal to 0.4 successes. Meaning that if you add a second die to your pool, you'll get 40% more successes. If you bump successes up to 7 or above, like Exalted does, the formula becomes 1 success=2 dice, which might be worthwhile on account of being easier to calculate.

Overall, though, I'm really not sure what the point of importing the 7th Sea system is here. If you like the "consequences and opportunities" system, why not just import that, and use extra successes to pay for them? That way you can keep the variability without throwing off the system's math, like I'm afraid will happen if you use the matching mechanic.

[Ravian]

Slightly. It's fairly easy to convert back and forth-- One die is equal to 0.4 successes. Meaning that if you add a second die to your pool, you'll get 40% more successes. If you bump successes up to 7 or above, like Exalted does, the formula becomes 1 success=2 dice, which might be worthwhile on account of being easier to calculate.

Overall, though, I'm really not sure what the point of importing the 7th Sea system is here. If you like the "consequences and opportunities" system, why not just import that, and use extra successes to pay for them? That way you can keep the variability without throwing off the system's math, like I'm afraid will happen if you use the matching mechanic.

I'm starting to see your point there. I think I'm going to try a bit of a compromise. I'll try keeping the regular WoD dice pool, possibly with the 7 up successes or the 10's count as double successes proposed earlier while adding consequences and opportunities to make success less binary as well as to represent more and less difficult situations. (so for example if you're trying to do a medicine check to do some field surgery with inadequate tools you might have a consequence to avoid infection, while if it was done in a fully-stocked clinic you might add an opportunity where the target is able to naturally recover the rest of their injuries more quickly than usual.

I would add that one of the nice things about Chronicles is that Conditions seem like they're practically designed to be used as potential consequences and opportunities.