Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXIV

[Galloglaich]

I fenced a guy this weekend who used a flambard rapier. I asked him if it made a difference and he said it behaves a bit differently in a bind.

I didn't notice, but I'm new-ish to HEMA blades. It may have had an effect that I didn't register. I did win the bout and a number of binds with a borrowed straight bladed rapier. His weapon was on the heavy side, which I think was more relevant than the curves.

Obviously, we weren't really cutting one another, so I don't know about that, but I figured I'd pass on the anecdote.

It's interesting that you mention that, because one of the theories about the wave blades - at least in some cases, is that it has some kind of effect in the bind. Not sure if I buy it but it's out there.

G

[Galloglaich]

I found so far only three modern uses for blades with a wave edge:

- cutting machines for bred, sausage cheese, etc: they recommend this edge for bread with a hard crust, straight edge for meat

- carpenters tools: they recommend it for cutting hard surface and mineral wool

- outdoor: cutting ropes, seatbelts, this kind of stuff, not good for cooking, difficult to sharpen

So it seems to develop an effect a bit like a saw, but doesent tend to get stuck (don’t know the word, maybe bite?) while the sawing movement.
Did armor/weapon have parts that could be sewered? Like leather parts you could reach from the outside?

One of the interesting things I've learned about swords over the years, is that different types of blades have fairly widely varying cutting effectiveness against different types of targets.

You can see some interesting threads on this on MyArmoury for example where they have done various types of test on different media. Tatami is kind of the standard but newspaper, pool noodles, plastic water bottles, wood, animal parts like from a butcher shop, and ballistic gel are all used for example.

When you narrow it down to the more realistic media, they find that the type of blade which cuts through bone effectively, or wood (like a weapon haft or a shield) often doesn't cut that well through soft media like the meat of a pigs leg or a tatami mat. And vice versa.

On top of that (and this might be the most relevant part) cutting through clothing can be surprisingly tricky. Very sharp thin blades cut through clothing best, whereas narrower wedge-like blades cut through bones and hard media best. Cutting through both simultaneously is the hardest. So in cutting contexts at HEMA tournaments the hardest level is usually a thick tatami mat with a wooden dowel inside and covered by cloth to simulate clothing.



When it comes to a fight with a Montante / Zweihander, or a rapier, there is an (arguably) better chance than usual that you might need to do a draw-cut if you get in a bind. Montante is mainly for chopping like a cleaver and rapier mainly for thrusting / stabbing, but if your opponent gets close there are techniques in the systems for slicing. maybe the wave blade is better at slicing or draw-cutting through textile armor or the kind of heavy clothes a soldier would typically wear.

That is kind of my theory anyway but we really don't know.


Also a wavy blade probably creates a horrible wound with a thrust.

[Mike_G]

It's interesting that you mention that, because one of the theories about the wave blades - at least in some cases, is that it has some kind of effect in the bind. Not sure if I buy it but it's out there.

G

Yeah, I didn't notice a difference. It was a heavy, long blade, compared to what I was using, so he had an advantage in the bind, but I did a few where I got my strong on his weak, and that worked fine. If the wavy blade changed things, it was pretty subtle.

It's interesting seeing how the more realistic blades change the game. I do very well with rapier from 30 years of sport fencing. I can hold my own, and not lose too badly with a single sword like a sidesword or sabre. Sword and buckler I can kinda do OK, but worse than single sword. They mop the floor with me with longswords. Those are just too different, and not much of my experience carries over.

[Max_Killjoy]

Also a wavy blade probably creates a horrible wound with a thrust.

Would it cause a wound more like wider a blade, without the full weight of the wider blade?

[Galloglaich]

Yeah, I didn't notice a difference. It was a heavy, long blade, compared to what I was using, so he had an advantage in the bind, but I did a few where I got my strong on his weak, and that worked fine.

That's what it's all about ain't it?

If the wavy blade changed things, it was pretty subtle.

It's interesting seeing how the more realistic blades change the game. I do very well with rapier from 30 years of sport fencing. I can hold my own, and not lose too badly with a single sword like a sidesword or sabre. Sword and buckler I can kinda do OK, but worse than single sword. They mop the floor with me with longswords. Those are just too different, and not much of my experience carries over.

So you find sport fencing (epee? saber? I can't remember what you specialized in?) translated more over to rapier than to smallsword? That's kind of surprising to me I would have thought smallsword would translate better.

Saber you'll probably just have to get more used to cutting from the elbow and the shoulder instead of just from the wrist, and moving off line (off the piste). Once you make that adjustment your skills should definitely translate there. Have you tried dussack or messer?

For longsword, if you decide to get into it (some rapier guys don't) just requires you to learn the basics first - especially the true / false edge stuff and the mastercuts. Once you have that down you'll do very well and your sport fencing background will help a lot. It takes ~ 2- 3 months though depending on your instructor and how much you train.

Dustin Reagan is an A rated epeeist and one of the top longsword fighters in the US. But he had to learn the longsword before he got good and his skills started to transfer over.

G

[Galloglaich]

Would it cause a wound more like wider a blade, without the full weight of the wider blade?

Good question, probably true...

[Clistenes]

Good question, probably true...

What I have heard is that its wounds would be harder to treat, would bleed more and get infected more often...

If you make parallel cuts in a body, the flesh between them doesn't receive blood and it dies and rots; what you get is a wide wound with a piece of dead rotting flesh stuck in it...

A flamberge's doesn't make a single clean cut, because the "waves" are never perfectly aligned while slicing, but rather make parallel cuts inside whe wounds.

[Mike_G]

That's what it's all about ain't it?



So you find sport fencing (epee? saber? I can't remember what you specialized in?) translated more over to rapier than to smallsword? That's kind of surprising to me I would have thought smallsword would translate better.

I imagine smallsword would be very close, but we didn't do any smallsword. Rapier was really easy to adapt to. The blade is heavier and bigger, but the principles are the same.

Saber you'll probably just have to get more used to cutting from the elbow and the shoulder instead of just from the wrist, and moving off line (off the piste). Once you make that adjustment your skills should definitely translate there. Have you tried dussack or messer?

Saber was pretty much what you say. after so long making all the cuts with my wrist and even fingers, it's just different to use the elbow, since I fought that tendency in sport sabre, because it gives them an opening and telegraphs your cut. The switch from a feint here to a cut there takes a lot more effort with a realistic blade versus a car antenna.

I did some dussack, which was closer to sport saber, just because of weight, no messer, but some arming sword and buckler. I had a lot of fun, and did OK, but its' mostly just adjusting to the different weapons and to less restricted footwork, use of the off hand and that kind of thing. Timing is still timing, parries are still parries.

And I have to remember to cover myself so as not to get hit by the afterblow, which isn't a thing in sport fencing.

For longsword, if you decide to get into it (some rapier guys don't) just requires you to learn the basics first - especially the true / false edge stuff and the mastercuts. Once you have that down you'll do very well and your sport fencing background will help a lot. It takes ~ 2- 3 months though depending on your instructor and how much you train.

Dustin Reagan is an A rated epeeist and one of the top longsword fighters in the US. But he had to learn the longsword before he got good and his skills started to transfer over.

G

That makes a lot of sense. It just the most different thing I've tried.

I really wish the HEMA community was around 25 years ago when I was fencing competitively.

[Max_Killjoy]

What I have heard is that its wounds would be harder to treat, would bleed more and get infected more often...

If you make parallel cuts in a body, the flesh between them doesn't receive blood and it dies and rots; what you get is a wide wound with a piece of dead rotting flesh stuck in it...

A flamberge's doesn't make a single clean cut, because the "waves" are never perfectly aligned while slicing, but rather make parallel cuts inside whe wounds.

I find those "it's more likely to kill the guy days later" explanations a bit, um, off, when it comes to designing weapons for combat.

If I'm the middle of a melee or in the press of battle, I don't care if someone dies in a week from infection, I care if I can make him stop trying to kill me right now, before he kills me.

[DerKommissar]

Could it be that after a thrust it also does damage while being pulled out while not getting stuck so easily? No idea if this is a thing in the first place, just a guess...

[Vinyadan]

About "horrible pain/death, later", I think that it might have been useful indirectly, for the soldier, if your enemies were scared enough to avoid you. And, in heavier cases than the flamberge (poison?), it might have been useful as a contrinuting factor to scare off whole formations. Of course, this probably also means that, when your enemies muster up the courage to actually fight, both individually and as a formation, they are much more determined to end you.

[Clistenes]

I find those "it's more likely to kill the guy days later" explanations a bit, um, off, when it comes to designing weapons for combat.

If I'm the middle of a melee or in the press of battle, I don't care if someone dies in a week from infection, I care if I can make him stop trying to kill me right now, before he kills me.

True, but remember, flamberge blades never got really popular/mainstream, so most soldiers probably thought like you do; they didn't want to spend the extra money in something that wasn't that useful during actual combat... and then there was that guy who liked to be seen carring a weapon that could mess you up badly, not to win fights, but to be more intimidating...

If flamberges were really more effective than simpler blades in actual combat, everybody would have used them, or at least everybody with enough money to pay for it...

[Max_Killjoy]

Finally had the chance to watch the NOVA episode on armor from a few weeks back.

The point is reinforced for me as applies to RPG design is that quality matters. The idea that the type of armor is all that makes a difference needs to die.

"Does plate armor stop bullets?" Depends, what sort of plate are we talking about?

"Does 'chainmail' stop thrusts and arrows?" Depends, what sort of mail are we talking about?

[Brother Oni]

I've been away for a week and just catching up.

I remember reading references to similar studies that found some percentage of soldiers would actively seek out engagements--i.e. some percentage (20 or 30%) would fight to kill the enemy, most of the rest would fight to not get hurt. "Killers" and "fillers" were I believe the terms, in case that rings a bell for anyone else regarding what I might have been looking at.

It can also depend on the service doctrine. I know during recent conflicts, US Army protocol to a convoy ambush was to break through and get clear, while the USMC standard response was to dismount and go kill the enemy.

What about a wooden practice sword (like the solid ones used for kendo training)?

There's two types of blunt training weapons used in kendo - shinai (made of bamboo) and bokken (made of wood). From experience, shinai hurt less - there's isn't that much difference between a solid piece of wood carved into a sword shape compared to a solid piece of wood shaped like a staff as both can be lethal when used appropriately.

[Vinyadan]

Musashi occasionally killed people with wooden swords, I think.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's two types of blunt training weapons used in kendo - shinai (made of bamboo) and bokken (made of wood). From experience, shinai hurt less - there's isn't that much difference between a solid piece of wood carved into a sword shape compared to a solid piece of wood shaped like a staff as both can be lethal when used appropriately.

I was talking specifically about bokken. I figured that shinai would leave bruises but be less likely to actually injure someone (hence the common use in introductory training).

BTW--I'm always grateful for y'all and what I learn. TIL the name of the bamboo training swords!

[Galloglaich]

I was talking specifically about bokken. I figured that shinai would leave bruises but be less likely to actually injure someone (hence the common use in introductory training).

BTW--I'm always grateful for y'all and what I learn. TIL the name of the bamboo training swords!

We used to use shinai in the early days of HEMA (with crosses added), before we had the good nylon and steel feders. They aren't even 'solid' bamboo - but rather bamboo slats tied together in a very clever way so that they kind of bend to absorb impact when you hit something.

Very light (about 1 lb) and very good for sparring compared to say, padded boffer or larp type swords, because they have a realistic presence in the bind (i.e. hard rather than spongy) and they are pretty well balanced too.

The only downside is they are a little shorter than real longswords, very stiff so not safe to thrust with (you have to use a lot of control). And they are a little fragile and can break on shield rims etc., though they hold up pretty well against each other.

Good cheap sparring weapon if you want to learn any kind of hand-and-a-half sword fencing, whether Asian or European.


G

[Galloglaich]

Musashi occasionally killed people with wooden swords, I think.

Yes he did, you can train with bokken but you have to have very good control. It's hardwood so not too difficult to hurt somebody pretty badly with them.

[Vinyadan]

What's the mega-bokken called? I remember seeing it used in Niten Ichi-ryū videos. As long as a bokken, but heavier and far thicker.

[Lemmy]

Huh... I think wavy blades were made simply because people liked the aesthetics and/or assumed it had some useful property and "confirmed" it through the magic of confirmation bias... Not everything humans do is 100% about practicality and/or result of unbiased, scientific research and testing, after all. It certainly wouldn't be the first (or last) such case.

That said, I'm not an expert or even scholar on swords... I'm basing my hypothesis on human nature, rather than any actual knowledge on swords or martial arts.

[Brother Oni]

What's the mega-bokken called? I remember seeing it used in Niten Ichi-ryū videos. As long as a bokken, but heavier and far thicker.

I'm not familiar with the style, but a quick google check indicates they include use of a daitou (大刀), which is longer than a typical katana.

I've also seen mention of heavier training weapons solely intended for technique and strength building, the suburitou and the furibo, the former being pretty much the oar that Miyamoto Musashi reputedly used to kill Sasaki Kojiro.

Spoiler: Furibo example

Show

[snowblizz]

Yes he did, you can train with bokken but you have to have very good control. It's hardwood so not too difficult to hurt somebody pretty badly with them.

In fact in the Pacific they made weapons solely out of hardwood. Africa too I seem to recall. And I mean other than clubs. Sort of edged weapons. Sword-clubs and such. Just got to those in a book about weapons.

Be easy with a bokken to crush someones windpipe e.g.

[Martin Greywolf]

THe worst bit about shinai IMO isn't the unsafe thrust - you kinda already need to put a lot of trust into your fellow fencers - it's that it doesn't really teach you blade alignment. This is less of a problem for Asian styles of swordplay that have very little work in a bind, but for European ones that are almost universally dependent on it, not so much. I've seen a lot of people have trouble adjusting to actual swords having blade alignment after using wooden sticks or shinai.

All in all, can't really recommend them, not now that we have better and reasonably cheap alternatives in synthetic sparring swords.

[gkathellar]

We used to use shinai in the early days of HEMA (with crosses added), before we had the good nylon and steel feders. They aren't even 'solid' bamboo - but rather bamboo slats tied together in a very clever way so that they kind of bend to absorb impact when you hit something.

Very light (about 1 lb) and very good for sparring compared to say, padded boffer or larp type swords, because they have a realistic presence in the bind (i.e. hard rather than spongy) and they are pretty well balanced too.

The only downside is they are a little shorter than real longswords, very stiff so not safe to thrust with (you have to use a lot of control). And they are a little fragile and can break on shield rims etc., though they hold up pretty well against each other.

Good cheap sparring weapon if you want to learn any kind of hand-and-a-half sword fencing, whether Asian or European.


G

IIRC, the bending/splintering is an intentional design feature, so that you can swing full force with very little risk of hurting the other guy. Kenjutsu had a long history of unsafe training practices, and a lot of styles permitted very little, if any, free sparring. The shinai was invented for a style that focused heavily on free sparring and was all about preparation for unarmored duels.

[wolflance]

True, but remember, flamberge blades never got really popular/mainstream, so most soldiers probably thought like you do; they didn't want to spend the extra money in something that wasn't that useful during actual combat... and then there was that guy who liked to be seen carring a weapon that could mess you up badly, not to win fights, but to be more intimidating...

If flamberges were really more effective than simpler blades in actual combat, everybody would have used them, or at least everybody with enough money to pay for it...

Slightly off-(this)-topic,but wavy-blade keris was pretty popular in SE Asia, so maybe the advantage lies in thrusting, rather than cutting?

I suppose, a wavy blade can create a wider wound during a thrust, and makes the wound more likely to disable the combatant, without having to make a wider blade?

[Max_Killjoy]

Slightly off-(this)-topic,but wavy-blade keris was pretty popular in SE Asia, so maybe the advantage lies in thrusting, rather than cutting?

I suppose, a wavy blade can create a wider wound during a thrust, and makes the wound more likely to disable the combatant, without having to make a wider blade?

We were musing over the same possibility.

Also a wavy blade probably creates a horrible wound with a thrust.

Would it cause a wound more like wider a blade, without the full weight of the wider blade?

Good question, probably true...

[Geodude6]

Broadly speaking, how effective were medieval/renaissance-era firearms compared to, say, crossbows?

[No brains]

In terms of performance, how does a brigandine differ from a solid breastplate? My guesses are that a solid plate might be proportionally stronger in terms of weight, yet may be more expensive and harder to repair. I assume that in their own ways, they are equally labor-intensive to make, yet a solid plate requires more specialized knowledge.

Asking again. I also saw that new-ish Nova about armor and with how difficult the one breast-plate was to make, I'm wondering why people didn't stick with the many smaller plates of a brigandine.

[Gnoman]

Broadly speaking, how effective were medieval/renaissance-era firearms compared to, say, crossbows?

That is an extremely complex question, but in general terms the firearms were quite a bit better after the earliest models. The very earliest handgonnes were lacking in accuracy (as much due to the extremely primitive ergonomics of the weapons and the inadequacies of the touch-lock system as to anything else), but even in that era the potential force of the shot was greater, and there was a not-insignificant morale effect.

[wolflance]

Broadly speaking, how effective were medieval/renaissance-era firearms compared to, say, crossbows?

Even a matchlock arquebus will generally outrange bow/crossbow, more accurate, hit harder, kill or decapacitate faster, and punch through armor better.

They generally reload slightly faster than windlass crossbow, too.

For handgonne, while the accuracy at long range is abyssmal, you can load it with pellets and go shotgun with it.