Reverse WW: The reawakening

[Fin]

I killed Fin for being inactive, which was not like him. Then he sent that message...sorry Fin

*shakes fist angrily at rakkoon for doing what he would probably done in the same situation so can't be mad really!*

Curse you

[rakkoon]

We could actually agree to send one kill to a person this night. If he is a wolf,he can defend himself. If he is not a wolf, he'll die. That way we can make sure that we do not kill ten wolves tonight.
Wait...I can be the villager and say that I tried to kill him, thus proving nothing...nevermind

[kgato503]

Okay, different track here. Anyone want to claim our one Villager kill? For whomever claims it, what made you suspect him? Is there someone else at that same level of suspicion for you?*

Eternis and AvatarVecna, you have both been fairly quiet recently...Any comments or thoughts you wish to share?

[rakkoon]

Good question.
Vote for eternis to make sure we get some kind of lynch which does not contain a small furry animal with a striped tail by accident.

[kgato503]

Hey Rakkoon, what are your thoughts on Logic? I am still unsure about them.

[Wizibirb]

day ends tomorrow

[rakkoon]

Logic's logic seem alright. This does not tell us anything about their villager status but it's not suspect to me.
Keep in mind that I keep killing wolves so my track record in this game is not good.
Logic, what did you do this night?

[Logic]

This mess is why we should have holstered our kills. Because of the bloodbath, if the villager can cure tonight, then today is LYLO. But, since the ability says 3-night cooldown, the villager cannot win off a mislynch today unless AvtarVecna and Eternis fail to show up.

Logic's logic seem alright. This does not tell us anything about their villager status but it's not suspect to me.
Keep in mind that I keep killing wolves so my track record in this game is not good.
Logic, what did you do this night?

I defended, because I wasn't sure enough to take out anyone with a kill.

So, since AvatarVecna and Eternis are silent, and the only other players are Kgato, rakkoon and myself, I am fairly certain that our two inactives are not the villager. AvatarVecna is all but cleared, unless he's playing the best game of low-key survival ever. Eternis is in the same boat to a lesser degree.

Which leaves me with my top two remaining suspects: Kgato and rakkoon.

In rakkoons favor,

When this is over, I want a full narration by the villager about how this game was for him/her/them.

Either this is very well thought out performance theatre, or this is genuine. No offense to rakkoon, but I don't think the former is part of his skill set yet. If he's the villager, he deserves this win.

Which leaves Kgato. I've been suspicious of him all game, and he has somehow dodged nightkills and the lynch several times.

[rakkoon]

Actually, your reasoning is sound.
Either the villager is lying low or he is one of the three active players.
Since I don't have the necessary skills ( ) that leaves logic and kgato.
Kgato was suspect but is a somewhat new player (I gather?) and asks the right questions.
Logic hasn't done anything wrong either.
So...any confessions?

[rakkoon]

So....kgato to keep it interesting?

[kgato503]

Which leaves Kgato. I've been suspicious of him all game, and he has somehow dodged nightkills and the lynch several times.

Emphasis mine.

I DEFENDED. That is how I "dodged" the night kills. Unless you can prove that my failure to die was because of kill interference, then that only strengthens my claim as a wolf. As for "dodging" the lynch, I made my case in such a way that I seemed more likely to be a wolf.

Of the three active players right now, I most suspect Logic. And not just because they want to kill me. Logic has repeatedly provided false or misleading information, which only really hurts our side (aka, wolves). Heck, in their last post, they make it sound like they had been advocating for no night kills, when I don't remember them ever bringing it up, or if they did, it was not something they presented in a strong manner.

However, since it seems unlikely that I will sway any votes with this, would a postmortem apology be too much to ask when it is revealed that I am a wolf?

Edit: Logic, were you claiming that you tried to kill me at night multiple times? If so, which nights did you try? You claimed that your Night 1 action was to "Not Attack" (You did not claim to defend, just that you did not attack), Night 2 you made no claim, and Night 3 you claim to have Defended. So, there is only one night were you could have gone after me. Day 2 was also the only time I was a serious contender for Lynch. 2 times (one night and one lynch) does not equal "several". So again, misrepresentation of information. .

[Logic]

Which leaves Kgato. I've been suspicious of him all game, and he has somehow dodged nightkills and the lynch several times.

Emphasis mine.

I DEFENDED. That is how I "dodged" the night kills. Unless you can prove that my failure to die was because of kill interference, then that only strengthens my claim as a wolf. As for "dodging" the lynch, I made my case in such a way that I seemed more likely to be a wolf.

Of the three active players right now, I most suspect Logic. And not just because they want to kill me. Logic has repeatedly provided false or misleading information, which only really hurts our side (aka, wolves). Heck, in their last post, they make it sound like they had been advocating for no night kills, when I don't remember them ever bringing it up, or if they did, it was not something they presented in a strong manner.

However, since it seems unlikely that I will sway any votes with this, would a postmortem apology be too much to ask when it is revealed that I am a wolf?

Edit: Logic, were you claiming that you tried to kill me at night multiple times? If so, which nights did you try? You claimed that your Night 1 action was to "Not Attack" (You did not claim to defend, just that you did not attack), Night 2 you made no claim, and Night 3 you claim to have Defended. So, there is only one night were you could have gone after me. Day 2 was also the only time I was a serious contender for Lynch. 2 times (one night and one lynch) does not equal "several". So again, misrepresentation of information. .

Ok, lets start by addressing the part of my statement that you bolded.

I assumed you dodged nightkills, because if EVERYONE is a vigilante, then the most suspicious people are usually targeted. You've been a top suspect on most player lists from since day 2, yet someone has always swayed the vote by the end away from you. I made an assumption that since you were dodging the lynch, you must have been targeted by the same people that suspected you. Now, I'm not sure how defend/kill interference works, and whether or not that counts as a strongman or whatever, but it is always a reasonable assumption that a vigilante will take a mislynch into his own hands and try to kill the survivor of a close lynch.

To claim that you were not a serious contender for the lynch yesterday is patently false. You were the first leader with 3 votes. That's a serious contender. I'm not misrepresenting the information, but it does look like you may be.

For the record, I never targeted anyone with a nightkill, and Defended from Night 2 on. I took no action on night 1, because I only skimmed the rules at the time, and missed that we could defend ourselves. I'd also like to point out that I did advocate for not nightkilling from all the way back in this post, near the start of day 2:

It looks like we've got someone with an itchy trigger finger. Anyone want to claim the second kill?

It's not super clear to see that was my intent, but I was trying to see if anyone would pick up on my hint to not murder the crap out of each other.

But, please illuminate where I repeatedly provided false or misleading information. I recall the one tie vote comment where the vote wasn't really tied. I also apologized for my error.

In truth, while I think last night was obviously bad for how many wolves were killed due to improperly aimed kills, it was the best chance to have gotten someone suspicious, because of the additional days worth of information to establish a profile on suspicious potential targets. I still stand by my assessment that it was a bloodbath, and that we should not have gone wild on what looks to be half-baked guesses.

The only known villager was Chambers. So lets look at who he voted for (keeping in mind he may have been a wolf on day 1.)
Day 1: Started with Eternis, then OMGUS'ed me. EOD LYNCH: NO LYNCH
Day 2: Deathslayer and never moved. EOD LYNCH: Deathslayer
Day 3: Follows Kgato on Fin later moves to AvatarVecna. Based on this vote, I highly doubt AV is a villager. EOD LYNCH: Duck

If you disagree with my points, assumptions or conclusions, please refute them. Perhaps you and I are being played by a crafty rakkoon. For the moment, you look like a much more likely villager than he, and I know I am a wolf.

[kgato503]

I assumed you dodged nightkills, because if EVERYONE is a vigilante, then the most suspicious people are usually targeted. You've been a top suspect on most player lists from since day 2, yet someone has always swayed the vote by the end away from you. I made an assumption that since you were dodging the lynch, you must have been targeted by the same people that suspected you. Now, I'm not sure how defend/kill interference works, and whether or not that counts as a strongman or whatever, but it is always a reasonable assumption that a vigilante will take a mislynch into his own hands and try to kill the survivor of a close lynch.

...I am a little confused now. What do you mean by "strongman" and taking a mislynch into their own hands? It is my understanding that Defend protects you from a single incoming Wolf kill directed towards you, while the Villager can still kill you. If any two players try to kill the same player, be they Wolf or Villager, it results in kill interference. If a target both defends and is targeted for kills by multiple players, then the defend protects from an odd number of attacks, and the interference rule protects from an even number of attacks. All of this has been explained by Sanity. I Defended each night, so I was protected from an odd number of attacks. If I had multiple attackers, then the even numbers would cancel each other out, regardless of which side they were on, and any left overs would be blocked by my Defend.

But, please illuminate where I repeatedly provided false or misleading information. I recall the one tie vote comment where the vote wasn't really tied. I also apologized for my error.

1) Misrepresenting the vote count on Day 2, presenting me as having tied the vote, which I did not.
2) The table with post count. You presented your table as a possible tool for choosing who to target. However the information was not correct for the game at that point, as you included posts form before the game start. You also made no response (that I remember) to the matter when I brought this up.
3) I interpreted the comment about holstering our kills as another attempt at misinformation. You never made that strong a case for it. Calling attention to the blood shed does not equal advocating against it. If you wanted the Wolves to alter their MO, you should have called more attention to the problem, and made your position clear. Last Night might have been avoided if a strong case against night kills had been made. Your comment struck me as someone trying to take credit for reasonable thinking, when they had not put the effort in. While you claim to have been hinting for no night kills, I don't feel it was anywhere near strong enough to warrant that comment, without at least one other Wolf calling you out on it.
4) Claiming that I had "somehow dodged nightkills and the lynch several times". At the end of Day 3, I did not have any votes against me. You have mentioned yourself that you never tried to kill me during the night (even when it was obvious that you strongly suspected me). I did not get Lynched on Day 2 by virtue of the other player using a very similar strategy as myself came across as more guilty (who, may I remind you, turned out to be a wolf, and now it seems that you were doing at least some of the same thing all along, or so you claim). Day three seemed to shave a bit of holdover from Day 2, which was then resolved. So, you know for certain that I managed to not get Lynched on 2 days that my name came up. You have no idea if anyone ever tried to kill me at night. 2 misses does not a "several" make. By using the word "several", you made it seem more serious than it is.

And you were right about me being a contender early Day 3. I was in a hurry last night (IRL) and just looked at the end score for the day, where I had no outstanding votes. I forgot because the group had moved off of me entirely by the end of the day, and Day 3 was one of those really long days . I truly apologize for the inaccuracy . I do try to put our accurate information. Even with a spreadsheet to keep facts straight, I goof occasionally. I'm not claiming that a Wolf can't goof (we are mortal creatures after all, just look at how many of us have dropped like flies), but you have misrepresented facts on multiple occasions, without, what I feel, is an adequate apology to the group (misinformation can kill in this sort of situation). I think that is part of my problem here. When called on these, it seemed more like you were dogging the problem, or tying to shrug it off, rather than really owning up to it.

Could we both be Wolves? It is possible. Could Rakkon be a numerous mastermind who may or may not be laughing their striped tail off at us? Also possible. Could one of our silent parties be the real threat? Also possible. The truth is, I hold both Logic and Rakkoon in high suspicion. Logic just seems more likely at this point.

[Logic]

Phone posting, expect errors

1.) I apologized for my error, and I have been curious why this is still such a bug in your bonnet.
2 ) I made no attempt to hide how I obtained the information. I even provided exactly my methodology. I did not feel it warranted a response. I provided a factual postcount, and how I got my info. You also stated a fact, and took issue that it was also counting posts prior to the game start. The only part that was not true was a "misrepresentation of data claim."
3.) I don't know how one can come to that conclusion.
Vigilantes can do as much harm as good, so when given the power, you are better off using it sparingly against a target you are dead sure of. Otherwise you are doing the villager's job fir them.
4.) Ok, so my use of "several" was hyperbole. But by the same merits, so is your "misrepresentation of data" as well as your use of "several."

And concerning a strongman: in a normal werewolf game, it a limited use wolf power (×1, ×2, etc) that can bypass protections. Ive inly recently been introduced to the concept over on another site i play mafia/werewolf on. (I'm logic on the totalwar.org forums, btw, and we are recruiting for a new game now, if you are interested, and can still stand to play with me. )

And now I'm off to bed, and I doubt I will change my vote if the day does not end before I wake.

[Wizibirb]

Ok very sorry I meant to end the day today but forgot its november so started my novel instead and then spent all day in clas for work .... so im exahusted and feel like a ****ty person should end tomorrow

[kgato503]

At this point, I don't think Logic and I are really going to budge. I guess that part of my problem with Logic is that I consistently feel persecuted by them, despite repeatedly defending myself. I never felt any apology/explanation for what I felt were misinformation events were more than a shoulder shrug.

My tie vote comment was an error. I do hope you don't think to hold an easily refutable claim by me as something nefarious.

This struck me as off, and the rest went downhill from there. Heck, with how hard we are fighting each other, I am almost willing to write you off as a wolf, same as me.

Hey, Rakkon, what do you make of all this/anything you want to add/ how are you enjoying the fireworks ? (Yes, at the moment I have accepted my impending death and the equally impending loss of the Wolves)

[rakkoon]

You notice a small furry animail sitting in the corner.
It seems to be drinking from a glass with a funny umbrella in it.
It seems to be enjoying the show.

I think that both of you have some good points and I do not know who to choose.
Since you are equal, I'll go with my gut feeling, which is killing kgato.
If I'm right, we've won. If I'm wrong, well played villager.

There is also the option that the villager is laughing his behind off watching us interact

[Wizibirb]

Game over!

Seeing as how the three people here are the only ones that post any more I am ending this game.... But who won???!?!?!? That will have to wait till after work! I got called in a bit early

And no spoiling the ending

[Ronnoc]

The suspense is killing me...or that was the other players. On second thought it was probably that one.

[Aventine]

The suspense is killing me...or that was the other players. On second thought it was probably that one.

I know the feeling.

I'm also very interested to find out who killed me...I blame Logic

[kgato503]

Sooooo, am I dead yet ?

Seriously, the results should be interesting.

[rakkoon]

The suspense!

[Logic]

Yeah, Sanity! Give us the results!

[Wizibirb]

Kgato was ready to flee there was no hope, everything was stacked against them. After all with so few wolves left and at least one more of the crazy buggers Roaming the village. It was time to run, it was time to find a nice village and settle down maybe become the new pack leader. Smiling kgato finished the packing but when they stepped outside the remaining wolves awaited. Ready for blood and death, "Come on! I keep telling you I AM INNOCENT! Rakkoon! Man how many times have we gone out hunting togehter!?!?!?" Poor Kgato pleaded to no avail as they enclosed. "That bastard cured one of us memories mean nothing K." As one the remaining wolves descend on one of their remaining pack and left him dead, but that was the mistake there was now to few of them... A laugh echoed a maniac laugh that chilled the wolves to their core. Logic fell from the roof where they had been watching and brought a knife down into rakkoons spine who dropped dead. The moment he hit the ground he gutted AV then slashed Eternis neck laughing as he walked away from the last four wolves who lay dying in a pool of blood. Logics master had been right wolves deserved to be purge..... They would carry on the holy mission to purge the wolves. To slaughter them to the last.

Day 4 end!
Game end!

Logic was the final villager and outsmarted the remaining wolves they have won

Players

Spoiler

Show

	Player	Roll	Death
1	Sanity	Narrator	Yes
2	Finn	night 3	Wolf
3	Duck999	Wolf	Day 3
4	Ramsus	Wolf	Night 1
5	Eternis	Wolf	Day 4
6	AvatarVecna	Wolf	Day 4
7	BasketOfPuppies	Wolf	Night 2
8	Chambers	Night 3	Villager
9	Logic	Cured villager	Winner
10	Aventine	Night 3	Wolf
11	Rakkoon	Day 4	Wolf
12	Extrail	Wolf	Night 1
13	Deathslayer7	Wolf	Day 2
14	Ronnoc	Wolf	Night 3
15	kgato503	Day 4	Wolf

So you may now discuss your night actions after filling out this survey

1) What could the narrator have done better?
2) Would you play a game run by me again?
3) Vote for my next game!

[Logic]

So, Kgato: Great deduction. You sniffed me out early after my conversion. While my "suspicion" of you was not genuine, I did not intentionally manipulate any data to get my points across. Honestly, I was surprised no one followed you with any real gusto. In case you were feeling persecuted for my gunning for you all game, I apologize if my play had anything to do with you not having fun. To win, I had to push the most suspicious-looking player left, and to me, you looked like the one that I could convince town to agree with me on. I've said before that this game is deception and deduction, but persuading is as much a part of the game as anything. If you had just a little more influence, I would have been a goner, or I would have had to attempt to pocket you to stay alive and have any hope of winning.

I can't recall any specific places where I lied, except posts pointing at "suspicious" people on day 2 and later. I find I make a better mafia if I am not trying to deceive by lying my *** off. I work better by trying to emulate my vanilla game (which doesn't always work out) than I do any other particular strategy.

• Day 1 I was sniffing out for the villager. I did not seriously think I had hit the mark with my vote for Chambers; it was mostly a joke vote to see how he (and others) would react.
• Night 1 (as a wolf) I explicitly decided to not kill, but I either missed the "Defend" action in the rules, or I forgot it existed, so I PMed Sanity and said something to the effect of "I holster my kill action." I don't know if defending would have saved me from being cured or not, but I'm assuming it would not have.
• My first post (#64) on day 2 (from the perspective of a newly cured villager) was a "WHOA WHOA WHOA, WHY IS ANYONE VIG-SHOOTING SO EARLY!?!?"
• My next post of the day (#69) was 100% true. It's probably what I would have done and said as a wolf.
• Post #75 was a legitimate argument even from a wolf-me perspective. Voting history is only really helpful after a mafia has flipped, and less helpful when there is only 1 mafia.
• No lynch is usually bad for town. Which is why I was keen to pressure Deathslayer when he seemingly stumbled when pressured by others for his no lynch comments.
• Post #85: the infamous "Why didn't you break the tie?" Yup. I goofed. I miscounted, and at the time, it seemed like a good idea to pressure Kgato with what I thought was a bulletproof argument. It would normally be a good one. But I miscounted, and I was called out on it. These kind of goofs happen to even players more skilled than I, and are usually pounced on. The most skilled players are able to easily deflect from this and just ask for a mulligan. I think I hit the bare minimum in my explanation, and only Kgato saw through it. Goof ups like mine typically get you lynched day of, or not at all.
• Chambers in #88 gives a good response that helps my case, but it's a very townie response, so he continues to fly under the radar.
• Post #100 I see how I had goofed with my tie vote error, and gave the best townie response I think I could give. I'm sure there are plenty of better responses, but under real scrutiny I probably would have cracked.
• Post #111: I continue to cover my tracks, and building a case for a town-core. (Wolfpack?) Deathslayer responds in a way that putting more pressure on him from my position looks funny, so I back off of him.
• Deathslayer is lynched, and Basket of Puppies is night-killed: I don't recall who we submitted for our night kill here, but I do remember being slightly disappointed that we didn't get whomever it was.
• Kgato opens the day with a wonderful idea (from a wolf perspective) and that is to lynch the inactives. I put pressure on the opposite one to provide an alternative if I can, keep town divided if possible, and look a tad more wolfish while doing so.
• Kgato gains an early lead on day 3, I am silently hoping he is the one offed because he saw right through me. I don't jump on this wagon, but I do point out what could be interpreted as suspicious behavior. I probe Aventine to be more specific about duck. If he gives me a good argument, I will join it. If it's a weak one, I will attack it. Aventine is too good to leave to his own devices; he is a must pocket, kill, or convert.
• Rakkoon claims the vig-kill, I respond in a cheeky manner. No nefarious intent, just a filler post that I might have made as a wolf.
  
• Kgato reveals in post #135 he might be softening on me for my goof up, so I lay off for now.
• Wall of text at post #137 is me responding to a bunch of people at once. I've removed my vote from AV, and I'm keeping my vote off of active players at this point to remain internally consistent. By the end of the day, I have no vote to replace my removed vote from early in the day. EOD Duck is killed, and I breathe a sign of relief.
• Night 4 I suggest we kill ronnoc. I don;t recall exactly why, but they were active and not on anyone's radar, so I figured they were a decent target to not have to try and point to nefarious posts to get our point across. This is also the night of the bloodbath, that loses me my teammate. Fare-thee-well, Comrade Chambers. My top selection to convert is also killed. Bye, Aventine.
• Mentally notes that rakkoon has publicly claimed 2 friendly fire kills. May save for suspicions later.
• Kgato asks rakkoon about me, and when rakkoon semi-vouches for me, I know who I must target to win. Sorry Kgato.
• rakkoon votes for Kgato, so now everything I do from here must be to keep him on my side. If Kgato changes to rakkoon, I have little hope of flipping to rakkoon without looking SUPER-DUPER WEIRD.
• I make a decent post in 158, but the one phrase that Kgato latches onto could have easily been a nail in my coffin if Kgato had been more convincing. Great eye, Kgato.
• Kgato mentions "of the three active players" that I was thinking about finding a way to attack, if need be. He is 1 of 3, so the real odds are 50-50 of finding the wolf. Kgato has it down, rakkoon does not yet.
• I respond to a serious accusation with DATA. LOTS AND LOTS OF DATA. This has worked for me in the past to save me from lynch (as both sides) so I pressed out as much as I could.
• Kgato makes a very legitimate case against me. I respond as non-descriptively as possible with a phone post just before bed. I hope I have not lost rakkoon, assuming I have done all I can.
• If game had not ended after tonight, I was going to cure AvatarVecna if he had shown back up, and rakkoon if AV was still MIA.

Here's hoping I have satisfied all parties.

[Aventine]

Well...at least I killed Chambers, so I did one thing right before I died.

[Wizibirb]

You didn't satisfy my survey logic *cries*

[kgato503]

1) What could the narrator have done better?
A) Not a lot, actually. Most of my questions were n00b related. A part of me wishes that the narration had meant more to the game play, but if not well done that can really screw the players up. It might have also been nice if the Wolves had a solid information gathering method (Wolf Seer, or some such). And in many ways, I actually liked the longer days (I think it save me a couple of times).
2) Would you play a game run by me again?
A) Overall, that is a strong maybe, I got a little.. okay, a lot frustrated on Day 2, and was reconsidering continuing on on the Structured Game Forum, but now I feel a bit better about it.
3) Vote for my next game!
A) What are the options? I wouldn't mind some Normal WW, perhaps with a bunch of the extra roles (Seer, Tanner, Masons, Lovers, ect. It is kinda boring to just be a Villager when there are fun roles about). I also wouldn't mind another round of Reverse WW, although, a Seer might be nice.

Overall, despite some a bit frustrations, I did enjoy myself. And, despite my death and losing, I am doing a little happy dance about being right about Logic . While I have played IRL, most of my experience is with the abbreviated game (where there is only one night, and all the Villagers need to do is kill one Wolf to win), and I think it showed a bit. I have played the longer version IRL, but not as much (and with a larger group). Obviously, I need to learn how to be more persuasive .

Oh, and Logic, thank you for letting me know that it wasn't personal! I have to admit, for a while that was putting me off of trying another game here, but now I think I will stick around and maybe try another game .

[Chambers]

Well...at least I killed Chambers, so I did one thing right before I died.

And i would have gotten away with it too! What made you suspect me?

I had fun being Team Bad, I just wish that I had had more time to really get into the conversation on the first few Days.

Survey:
1. I think in a game with no special or unique roles it would have been okay to speed up the Day/Night timeframe.
2. Yes.
3. Hmm. Astronauts vs Aliens.

[Deathslayer7]

If I would have survived the lynch, I would have killed you chambers. Just sayin'. I was almost certain you were a villager. Logic escaped me though. Probably moreso because I didn't feel like reading through the wall of text.

1) Keeping on time with narrations always helps.
2) Yes. Let me help you tweak the rules a bit more. Too much confusion in the beginning.
3) I'm bad with names.