Best spells for a sorcerer?

[samcifer]

Okay, let me try it this way. Which are the overall 'best' spells for a sorcerer to go for?

(let the arguing begin. :/ )

[Aett_Thorn]

Depends on if you want to be Control, Blast, or Buff/Debuff focused, really.

But I would say that with their limited selection, having spells in your repertoire that are useful both in and out of combat would be useful.

[Beechgnome]

Without knowing what to you want to do it what metamagic you want, as aett Thorn said, versatility is key.

That can mean one of two things:

Spells with multiple uses. Enhance ability, for example, can in combat can give grappling advantage or temp hp or initiative bonus. Misty Step, which is great for combat but also great for exploration and getting to hard-to-reach places

Or it can mean spells that scale really well. Spells that add more targets at different levels, like charm person, blindness, Invisibility, hold person, banishment are all great because you don't need to have twinned metamagic to hit more than one target... But you could twin them if you didn't want to upcast them.

If you want to take advantage of quicken, and who doesn't, then the best spells are those that use an ongoing action. Cast these, then on subsequent turns quicken other spells while you keep the first spell active. Maximilian's earthen grasp, Telekinesis, major image are examples of these.

That's a start.

[samcifer]

Depends on if you want to be Control, Blast, or Buff/Debuff focused, really.

But I would say that with their limited selection, having spells in your repertoire that are useful both in and out of combat would be useful.

Mostly focusing on damage spells (Fire and Radiant as I'm playing a Favored Soul sorc). with some utility. Only restriction (based on the character's personality) is no spells that manipulate/control the minds of others.

Since sorcs require planning out to be truly effective, I'm trying to map out my lv. 20 spell list so I can reverse engineer it back down through the levels to avoid being stuck with useless spells. It would help if I could find any end-level spell lists for sorcerers, but no one seems to post them online, so it's all guesswork for me. :(

I'm taking 2 levels of hexblade warlock (maybe a third, not sure yet), but am taking Twin and maybe Subtle or Distant as my other first pick for metamagics. Quicken will be taken at the second pick as I want to hold off on that one since it burns through sp too quickly for my taste. Empower might come then as well.

[The1exile]

Sorc beats others casters at a few specific things, and most of them involve breaking "the rules" somehow:

- Twinned spell allows you to have 2 concentration buffs on the go at once. Sweet.
- Heightened spell means you can go back to being the bane of entire encounters a la 3.5 with a nigh irresistible array of control spells
- Empowered spell makes you a great blaster
- Quickened spell breaks action economy

As a result, the spells I would recommend differ depending on which of these you take. (If you decide to go subtle/extended, I got nothin' for ya.)

Twinned

Buff baby buff! Here's my suggestions:

• Haste. Probably a best in class option really. Already a powerful buff, getting a twofer on this bad boy turns your fighters into whirlwinds of death. Can backfire so keep your concentration saves high.
• Enlarge/Reduce. Potentially a combat buff/debuff, but also very useful for breaking and entering. Confronted by a locked door? It's a miniature door now!
• Suggestion. Twin this and wreak havoc. As ever, depends on how your GM runs the spell.
• Disintegrate/Finger of Death. I'm putting these together since they're both single target nukes that are now dual target nukes! And in the case of FoD, you now get 2 zombies, though I have yet to see a campaign in which managing a zombie in fights wasn't a waste of everyone's time.
• Polymorph. The ultimate in buff/control/in combat/out of combat crossovers. WHy settle for one frontline dinosaur when you can have 2?
• Hold Monster/Dominate Monster. The second is late in the game but like suggestion before it, if you can't find a use for having 2 enemies on your side, either you lack imagination or your GM hates you. Save or suck can always do with a hedge, too.

Heightened

Prepare for every goblin village to have a chief with legendary resistance if you go this path:

• Hold Person. Falls off in utility as you stop fighting humanoids and start fighting things higher up the challenge rating system. But paralyze is a horrible effect.
• Suggestion. As above. Add an "or else" to your do-what-I-say spells.
• Dominate Person/Monster. You know you want to.
• Fear. Also a powerful aoe control in its own right, you can double down on one target - but that can be really ppwerful, especially if you think one of them might be able to dispel your spell unless they're controlled.
• Hold Monster. High five your rogue as they roll 18 dice on their crits. Watch trumphantly as your GM glumly subtracts hundreds of hitpoints a round from their purple worm.
• Banishment. No one puts baby in the demiplane. Except you.

Empowered

Pair with Draconic ancestry and maybe elemental adept (the feat) for best results.

• Fireball. When you absolutely positively need to kill every monkey fighter in the room... accept no substitute.
• Lightning Bolt. For GMs who love corridors too much. Gnerally worse than fireball but with a less resisted damage type. Make sure you read (okay, watch) Frankenstein before invading a necromancer's lair.
• Firestorm. d10s can go really badly or really well. Don't let them go really badly.
• Meteor Swarm. Like Firestorm but with bells on.
• Chain Lightning. Hit em hard, then hit everyone else hard too because you arenlt about to take 4 1s on your 10d8 roll lying down. Awesome.
• Cone of Cold. A nice halfway house between Lightning Bolt and Fireball. I don;t recommedn going cold draconic ancestry, but if you have a theme, own it.

Quickened

Everyone always gets quickened, in my experience, because casting spells and then hitting people again just makes good adventuring sense. But there a few ways you can maximise your resources and keep doubling down long after lesser mages have left the table for a long rest:

• Telekinesis. Go skeet shooting with goblins. Puts the pull in pull.
• Eyebite. Don't forget you can use your bonus action first.
• Dominate Person/Monster. Need to give your peon a specific instruction with your action? Don't give up the DPS chart-topper fight with a whimper.

I've probably missed some. But this should do to get you started.

[Dalebert]

It would help if I could find any end-level spell lists for sorcerers, but no one seems to post them online, so it's all guesswork for me. :(

My 20th level sorc spells are posted here.

Remember that Polymorph followed by Disintegrate is a great one-two punch and both are twinnable. I took Comprehend Languages due to the stupid ruling that GoO lock telepathy is one-way. I figured what the point of so much charisma and charisma skills if you can't communicate to use them?

I'm taking 2 levels of hexblade warlock (maybe a third, not sure yet), but am taking Twin and maybe Subtle or Distant as my other first pick for metamagics. Quicken will be taken at the second pick as I want to hold off on that one since it burns through sp too quickly for my taste. Empower might come then as well.

I had the same thought and picked my metamagics in this order: Twin Spell, Subtle Spell, Quicken, Distant Spell

You should of course pick your spell list in conjunction with the metamagics you choose to find interesting combos. This sorcerer, for instance, uses Phantasmal Force twinned as a crowd control. My wild magic sorc took Careful Spell with Web and Hypnotic Pattern. He's a wild mage and Subtle Spell, while I love it, just doesn't seem to fit his out-of-control magic.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Quickened

Everyone always gets quickened, in my experience, because casting spells and then hitting people again just makes good adventuring sense. But there a few ways you can maximise your resources and keep doubling down long after lesser mages have left the table for a long rest:

• Telekinesis. Go skeet shooting with goblins. Puts the pull in pull.
• Eyebite. Don't forget you can use your bonus action first.
• Dominate Person/Monster. Need to give your peon a specific instruction with your action? Don't give up the DPS chart-topper fight with a whimper.

I've probably missed some. But this should do to get you started.

Also Maximilian's Earthen Grasp. You can crash your target as one action, and as it's restrained, quicken a spell with an attack roll for granting advantage (Firebolt, Chromatic Orb, Scorching Ray, etc).

As a general rule, versatile spells that can be used in different and creative ways are also a good choice.

For example, Enhace Ability grants can grant you advantage and minor bonus in all your ability checks. And Gaseousus Form let's you fly, and change your shape, so you can spy as a cloud (mixing to some degree Invisibility and Fly). Counterspell is a nice spell if you don't know what to take, as it uses your reaction, and if you see an enemy spellcaster, cast Enhace Ability (Charisma) first to ruin your DM.

Also, always have an AoE attack. Fireball is ok but Vitriolic Sphere does more damage than Fireball, same radius, although in two rounds (10d4 when cast, and 5d4 next round).

[90sMusic]

I never play a straight sorcerer because they're a terrible class, but I do enjoy 2 levels of warlock and the rest in sorcerer quite a bit.

With eldritch blast + hex being responsible for most of the damage, I don't need much in the way of offensive spells.

I pickup Fireball and Lightning Bolt so I have 2 types of elemental AOE damage, essentially everything else I get is purely for control or buff/debuff purposes as further damage spells are completely redundant.

Alterself can be useful if you ever need to do some underwater business. It's also good for a disguise that isn't an illusion and can't be seen through as well as a +1 magic weapon in a pinch.

Enhance Ability is always great when you are searching for something and want that perception/investigation advantage or want advantage on those persuasion/deception rolls, or whatever else.

Hold Person and Invisibility are always useful.

Blink is great for avoiding attacks if you find yourself targeted a lot.

Counterspell should be basically an automatic pick all the time. Haste is great for buffing martial classes, especially if they have some OP weapon.

Tongues can be incredibly useful depending on the type of campaign you're running. I've played in some where just about everyone only spoke their own language instead of common, so that was very useful there.

Dimension Door and Polymorph are good picks.

Stuff like Disintegrate i can't see much use for because 10d6 +40 sounds nice, but eldritch blast and hex at that level is doing 3d10+3d6+15 (42 average). And as disintegrate is once per long rest, i'd rather opt to conver that to sorc points to get 3 additional bonus action eldritch blasts. You get more bang for your buck that way, unless you're in a campaign with lots of rests and little combat.

Eyebite I also find situationally useful because it's the only way to put any kind of creature to sleep unless they explicitly have some sleep immune property like elves do. Unless the normal sleep spell which requires them to be almost beaten to unconsciousness anyway and virtually useless beyond the first couple of levels, this will work on something at full health.

Now unlike Disintegrate, Finger of Death can be absurdly useful. Not as a damage spell, but as a "gain an army of permanently under your control zombies" spell.

Plane Shift is also a great spell. I like it much more than Teleport because Teleport has failure and death probability while Plane Shift does not, only catch is you can only goto another plane of existence with it. So the best way to take advantage of that is to use it inside of a demiplane such as a magnificent mansion, one created by the spell demiplane, or something along those lines. Otherwise you'll have to make a detour through a friendly plane of existence and long rest to do it again. But typically this is still faster than just traveling there by any other means. And with teleport, you have a decently high probability of going to a similar location or off target which can mean you're still days away from getting where you need to go, and it also comes with a chance of taking damage or even dying. So plane shift is always my pick there.

Dominate Spells are great. Wish is of course the bee's knees.

[Easy_Lee]

It sounds like you're going to be a melee character with magic backing up your melee. If that's the case, standard advice is to go with Quicken and Twin, the focus on control spells. Sorcadins like to think about casting Hold Person as a bonus action followed by two guaranteed smite crits in one round.

This isn't how I would play a Sorcerer. I'd go Subtle, Twinned, then Quicken and focus on support and control, with spells like Haste and Suggestion. But that's just me.

[samcifer]

It sounds like you're going to be a melee character with magic backing up your melee. If that's the case, standard advice is to go with Quicken and Twin, the focus on control spells. Sorcadins like to think about casting Hold Person as a bonus action followed by two guaranteed smite crits in one round.

This isn't how I would play a Sorcerer. I'd go Subtle, Twinned, then Quicken and focus on support and control, with spells like Haste and Suggestion. But that's just me.

Actually I took Hexblade for the armor and shield as my AC is 12 without it (+2 DEX mod and no boosts to defense as a Favored Soul sorc, which I took for the expanded spell list). Melee is in case enemies get too close. I prefer to fight at range whenever possible.

[Easy_Lee]

Actually I took Hexblade for the armor and shield as my AC is 12 without it (+2 DEX mod and no boosts to defense as a Favored Soul sorc, which I took for the expanded spell list). Melee is in case enemies get too close. I prefer to fight at range whenever possible.

Then I'd go with subtle and twin first. Double concentration is unmatched, and subtle is the only way to turn yourself into a sneak caster. It makes the Sorcerer competitive for best assassin in the game.

Back when I played Skyrim, I got my illusion spells high enough that they could be cast silently, and used them to inflict Fury on NPCs. Any NPC you wanted dead would start attacking everything around it until it was killed by guards / allies. Sorcerers in 5e can do that with Subtle Crown of Madness without even having to hide first, leaving behind no evidence that they were the one who did it.

[samcifer]

Then I'd go with subtle and twin first. Double concentration is unmatched, and subtle is the only way to turn yourself into a sneak caster. It makes the Sorcerer competitive for best assassin in the game.

Back when I played Skyrim, I got my illusion spells high enough that they could be cast silently, and used them to inflict Fury on NPCs. Any NPC you wanted dead would start attacking everything around it until it was killed by guards / allies. Sorcerers in 5e can do that with Subtle Crown of Madness without even having to hide first, leaving behind no evidence that they were the one who did it.

Sounds good, but the character has a restriction (by way of his attitude towards) magic that affects the mind. He hates it and would rather set someone on fire than enslave their mind. Because of this, spells like Crown of Madness and Command are out as are similar spells. The story of the character is that his father wanted him to become a bard, but he ran away from home after an argument and when attacked, his sorcery awoke. Then he made a pact to become stronger. He hates mental manipulation and refuses to use such spells, which bards do a lot of.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Alterself can be useful if you ever need to do some underwater business. It's also good for a disguise that isn't an illusion and can't be seen through as well as a +1 magic weapon in a pinch.

Alter Self is one of those "versatile" spells (AKA "swiss-knife spells") I mentioned in my previous post (along with Enhace Ability or Gaseosus Form). The only problem with Alter Self is that there are so many good 2nd level spells that I never find the moment to pick it up as sorecerer.

By the way, a question for the spells specialists here, we have Alter Self, Enhace Ability, Pyrotechnics, Gaseosus Form, Polymorph... Any other great versatile spells out there that should be taken into consideration?

[samcifer]

In regards to subtle, how soon (generally speaking) do enemies capable of negating magic or hindering people so they can't move their arms to cast somatic components come along, level-wise? To me, that seems the major use of subtle.

[SharkForce]

heightened will not let you dominate every encounter. unless every encounter consists of 1-2 monsters, or 1 monster and some really pathetic support. it works on one save of one creature. so for example, if you do an area hold person and use heighten, not only does only one creature take disadvantage, but that one creature won't have disadvantage next round...

not saying it's bad. I'm just saying, it isn't comparable to 3.5 control where if you optimized right, nobody made their saves, period.

[samcifer]

heightened will not let you dominate every encounter. unless every encounter consists of 1-2 monsters, or 1 monster and some really pathetic support. it works on one save of one creature. so for example, if you do an area hold person and use heighten, not only does only one creature take disadvantage, but that one creature won't have disadvantage next round...

not saying it's bad. I'm just saying, it isn't comparable to 3.5 control where if you optimized right, nobody made their saves, period.

Plus I have Hex, so I can curse someone for a bonus action, choose the stat they have to save against for my save or suck spell, and they get disadvantage without me spending 3 sp. Also, the penalty from Hex can last up to 10 rounds, rather than just against a single spell casting.

[Easy_Lee]

Plus I have Hex, so I can curse someone for a bonus action, choose the stat they have to save against for my save or suck spell, and they get disadvantage without me spending 3 sp. Also, the penalty from Hex can last up to 10 rounds, rather than just against a single spell casting.

Hex works on checks, not saves. You can use it to help an ally grapple or sneak past something, but it doesn't affect many spells.

[samcifer]

Hex works on checks, not saves. You can use it to help an ally grapple or sneak past something, but it doesn't affect many spells.

Where's that coming from? I thought spell saves counted as a check.

[Varlon]

Absolutely not. PHB page 7: "Ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws are the three main kinds of d20 rolls".

[samcifer]

Absolutely not. PHB page 7: "Ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws are the three main kinds of d20 rolls".

*sigh* So Hex is only really good for the extra damage then, since checks are too situational to be worth counting on as we have no grapplers in the party. :(

[Beechgnome]

Alter Self is one of those "versatile" spells (AKA "swiss-knife spells") I mentioned in my previous post (along with Enhace Ability or Gaseosus Form). The only problem with Alter Self is that there are so many good 2nd level spells that I never find the moment to pick it up as sorecerer.

By the way, a question for the spells specialists here, we have Alter Self, Enhace Ability, Pyrotechnics, Gaseosus Form, Polymorph... Any other great versatile spells out there that should be taken into consideration?

I like alter self too, though mostly for out if combat stuff.

As for versatile: any illusion spell if you have an imagination and a DM willing to let you try things. Seeming, for example is good for disguising your parties as folks and then sneaking into their camp. (Non concentration to boot!) But even better is casting on a group of gnolls around the fire and turning them into elves! How many will make that Charisma save? And then, when you minor illusion 'death to the gnolls!' in elvish, well, what happens next, you think? Total chaos, I suspect.

[Dalebert]

Tongues can be incredibly useful...

Particularly for sorcerers who tend to have high charisma and the social skills.

Stuff like Disintegrate i can't see much use for because 10d6 +40 sounds nice, but eldritch blast and hex at that level is doing 3d10+3d6+15 (42 average).

Two things I imagine using it for are for the one/two punch of casting Polymorph and then Disintegrate. The other thing is as the sorcerer's Passwall. It will make a 10x10 ft chunk of non-living matter gone. We used it to get underneath a Prismatic Wall when we couldn't go through--disintegrated the ground under it. It could also be used to, for instance, get rid of a pile of bodies before the city guard shows up. So it has some versatility. If you only think of it for basic dmg, you're right. It's not that impressive. What's impressive is it makes things gone forever if it drops them to zero.

Plane Shift is also a great spell.

Even better with Distant Spell. Now it has 30 ft range. Now you don't have to make a melee spell attack which seems to be there only because touch is required. Works great with Blink if you just need to teleport yourself. On your turn, ready your action to cast it as soon as you shift to the Ethereal plane.

Wish is of course the bee's knees.

It's basically the only rational choice for 9th. I don't get why they didn't just make it the only 9th level spell for sorcs. I almost always use it to create a simulacrum of anyone I've ever met instantaneously. Right now my sorlock has an 18th level cleric who casts Animate Dead into his ring of spell storing so he can have his own skeletal contingent. I use them mainly for utility, to test for (i.e. set off) traps, or occasionally to run out and give someone a healing potion.

Occasionally I might use it for Awaken, to create a Leomund's Chest, or to set up a Glyph of Warding. A 7th level GoW can be set up with a Resurrection spell if your body is placed in it with the help of your pet cleric to cast the Resurrection. You could cast Clone but that's slow and tedious.

*sigh* So Hex is only really good for the extra damage then, since checks are too situational to be worth counting on as we have no grapplers in the party. :(

Oh, hardly. I'm a big fan of using it with subtle spell in social situations on their wisdom. That's what they use typically against your charisma checks like persuasion and deception. As a draconic sorcerer who already gets double prof bonus on dragons, I can work wornders!

[Byke]

I think there have been enough posts over the last few weeks on this board to say that there is no best spell list for a sorcerer.

But there are certain spell I believe should be on any sorcerer spell list.

Cantrips: lots of good damage ones...pick one or two dam and the rest pick utility, prestidigitation, minor illusion, mending, mage hand, friend....something that other than blasting

1st: Shield
2nd: Suggestion is my go to as it's used in and out of combat.
3rd: Fireball or Lighting Bolt, Counterspell, (Dispel Magic optional)
4th: Polymorph - The mother of all versatility spells. It's utility,offense, defense and a heal all rolled into one.
5th: Animate Object
9th: Wish

The remaining 7-8 spells should be used to focus on what your party needs most. Whether it is blasting, control or buffing.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Oh, hardly. I'm a big fan of using it with subtle spell in social situations on their wisdom. That's what they use typically against your charisma checks like persuasion and deception. As a draconic sorcerer who already gets double prof bonus on dragons, I can work wornders!

That's nice for dragons, if you ever have an encounter with one... Very situational. Enhace Ability, on the other hand, will always grant you advantage on Charisma checks, not only in one target as Hex, but in everyone hearing you. And you can also use it for granting advantage on initiative, stealth checks and disable traps checks, on dispelling/counterspelling checks, on percepction/investigation checks etc. One of the most versatile and forgotten spells around here.

[Dalebert]

That's nice for dragons, if you ever have an encounter with one... Very situational.

It's not very situational at all. It's a very common situation. It's useful on the fly in any social situation with Subtle Spell. I just pointed out how it stacks with draconic sorcerer perks to be obscene with dragons. It's not only useful on them.

Enhace ability, on the other hand, will always grant you advantage on Charisma checks, not only in one target as Hex, but in everyone hearing you.

That's true and you could Subtle Spell that as well. However, you can almost always get someone to assist you in those situations and just get advantage for free. Now you can have adv vs. the other's disadvantage via Hex. And Hex has its damage usage. It's practically a given that you took it if you're a warlock so this use of it is icing.

You did mention a couple of situations where someone assisting you won't work, e.g. on initiative and to help with Dispel Magic or Counterspell. Both of them require the spell to already have been cast. Sometimes you know an encounter is coming but often times you don't. You'd probably get one initiative at advantage before you needed your concentration for something else.

Those are good uses, I admit. I just don't know if they're good enough to justify a spells known slot or a 2nd lvl spell slot. Maybe. Depends on your build and how you plan to play the character. If you're in a party with an assassin, I'm sure giving him adv on initiative would possibly justify a 2nd level slot. Not generally otherwise I don't think. And if you're in a fight with a caster, I could see quickening an enhance of your charisma to ready for counterspells.

I don't know I'd want to waste even a bonus action on it when that would limit me to a cantrip. I'm more likely to just hex and EB the guy and try to kill him quickly. Instead just use a higher slot for Counterspell or get inspiration from a bard because I don't encounter spellcasters all that often or can kill them quickly. I'm thinking about getting my hands on a decent bard to have around as a simulacrum.

[samcifer]

I think there have been enough posts over the last few weeks on this board to say that there is no best spell list for a sorcerer.

But there are certain spell I believe should be on any sorcerer spell list.

Cantrips: lots of good damage ones...pick one or two dam and the rest pick utility, prestidigitation, minor illusion, mending, mage hand, friend....something that other than blasting

1st: Shield
2nd: Suggestion is my go to as it's used in and out of combat.
3rd: Fireball or Lighting Bolt, Counterspell, (Dispel Magic optional)
4th: Polymorph - The mother of all versatility spells. It's utility,offense, defense and a heal all rolled into one.
5th: Animate Object
9th: Wish

The remaining 7-8 spells should be used to focus on what your party needs most. Whether it is blasting, control or buffing.

Presti and min. illu. seem like wastes of space. They do no damage and give no combat bonuses. The uses for them seem only to be for rp-ing, not combat and since they require an action to use, they waste a turn that could be spend hurting enemies. I don't waste slots on them. I MIGHT go for Light as that one at least has some clear and understandable (as well as practical) applications.

[Dr. Cliché]

@samcifer

Did you say that you'd be playing a Favoured Soul?

If so, I'd definitely suggest Spiritual Weapon as one of your Lv2 spells.

[samcifer]

@samcifer

Did you say that you'd be playing a Favoured Soul?

If so, I'd definitely suggest Spiritual Weapon as one of your Lv2 spells.

It doesn't use concentration, so yeah, it sounds useful. Thanks. :)

[Citan]

That's nice for dragons, if you ever have an encounter with one... Very situational. Enhace Ability, on the other hand, will always grant you advantage on Charisma checks, not only in one target as Hex, but in everyone hearing you. And you can also use it for granting advantage on initiative, stealth checks and disable traps checks, on dispelling/counterspelling checks, on percepction/investigation checks etc. One of the most versatile and forgotten spells around here.

Both cater to different situations.
If all you need is someone in your party succeeding on a check and you can't just have someone help him, then Enhance Ability can be nice.

But when you are anticipating a check contest in a skill in which you have low bonus comparatively to your opponent, Hex is a blast.
For example, when trying to hide from the Elite guard with very high Perception.

Plus Hex can be stacked with Help from your allies, whereas Enhance Ability would be redundant. :=)