[PEACH] Dvati Race Rework/Conversion to PF

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

Well I'm out of ideas for this race outside of creating classes that are based off of the Dvati. I'll make a new thread in the near future for that and link them into this one and vice versa. I'll always be up for some suggestions on what to add to this list but I think the only thing that will be changing for the foreseeable future is the wording so that it's clear what was intended.

So stay tuned for Dvati archetypes! (Maybe some alternate racial abilities too but that might take a bit longer)

[Westhart]

Well I'm out of ideas for this race outside of creating classes that are based off of the Dvati. I'll make a new thread in the near future for that and link them into this one and vice versa. I'll always be up for some suggestions on what to add to this list but I think the only thing that will be changing for the foreseeable future is the wording so that it's clear what was intended.

So stay tuned for Dvati archetypes! (Maybe some alternate racial abilities too but that might take a bit longer)

Yeah, I couldn't think of any suggestions for more feats either, can't wait to see what you do for the class archetypes

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

O.K. a few things. I just realized that the issue of natural weapons and Dvati could become a thing and also questions about what happens if they both are Two-Weapon Fighting. I'll clean that up.

Also, I think I've figured out a way to keep the very first issue that people had with this. The Dragonfire Adept. (a 3.5 thing I know but I want this to be generally available to both PF and 3.5)
How about causing Supernatural abilities to take effect only once per target if they get hit by both twins? They can still use the ability multiple times to apply different effects but then there would be fewer ways to double dip on the damage.

[Westhart]

How would you justify that though? One twin breaths on you? Ouch. Then the other? Meh.

I couldn't see it as believable honestly...

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

How would you justify that though? One twin breaths on you? Ouch. Then the other? Meh.

I couldn't see it as believable honestly...

The justification would be that everything is happening all at once during the 6 seconds.
The only other thing I could do is to halve any damaging effects if the same ability is used by the twins twice in the same round.

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

I finally got the multiple attack stuff out of the way. Here it is.

-Two-Weapon Fighting: Each twin may get an extra attack for each twin using Two-Weapon Fighting but the corresponding twin must be the one using the extra attack and that twin suffers Two-Weapon Fighting penalties as normal. Should they both be Two-Weapon Fighting, they both suffer the penalties as normal.

Spoiler: Example

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A 6th level Dvati Fighter having one twin using one weapon and the other using two would have the ability to launch 4 attacks with at least 2 of the attacks being assigned to the one using two weapons and the attacks made by the twin wielding two weapons suffering the normal two-weapon fighting penalties. If they were both wielding two weapons, they could launch 5 attacks with at least 2 attacks being assigned to both of them and all attacks suffering from the normal two-weapon fighting penalties.

-Multiple natural attacks: Should one or both twins have access to multiple natural attacks, (should they take the full-attack action) they may use all of one twin's natural attacks and one additional attack from the other twin. They may forego one of the natural attacks to allow the other twin to attack but the attack bonus must be equal to or below that of the one they gave up.

Spoiler: Example

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A 6th level Dvati Druid with one twin wild shaped into a giant octopus (Bite with attack bonus +5 and 8 tentacles with attack bonus +0) and the other as a giant squid (bite at base attack bonus +5, 2 arms with attack bonus +5, and tentacles +0) could declare a full attack and gain one of their full attacks. The Giant Octopus could make a full attack and forego one of their tentacle attacks to allow the Giant Squid to attack with their tentacles attack. The Giant Octopus could not give up one of their tentacle attacks to allow the Giant Squid to make an attack with one of their arms since the tentacle is +0 and the arm is +5)

Spoiler: NOTE

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Yeesh, these last two were messy but I really did not want people capable of getting past the full-attack restriction by cheesing natural attacks or by adding another weapon they would never use. Multiple attacks are still going to be a thing but this should keep it from getting out of hand and keep out any confusion.

As for the Dragonfire Adept fix I think I'll kick that one to the curb upon further thought. It would honestly be more of a headache to try to make a hard and fast rule like that than it's worth and even then I'm not even sure it's that great of an idea.

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

O.K. I've got the first 2 archetypes up.
Here's the link: Archetypes

Hopefully anyone who likes what's been done here likes this too!

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

Created a new feat.

Spoiler: Shared Awareness

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The twins are in constant communication and this extends to all of their senses, making it very difficult to catch one of them off guard.
Requirements: Dvati
Benefits: If one twin is not considered flat-footed, neither of them are. Additionally, if a creature does not have concealment from both twins it does not gain concealment against either twin.

They lose the benefits of this feat if they are unable to use Innate Mindlink (Su).

Also, I clarified any decreases in max hp and I added a bit about how to handle their Initiative counts.

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

This version of the Dvati is intended to be played by two players. As such, teamwork is paramount for this particular version of this race and the Dvati feats are highly recommended since they generally provide BOTH twins/players with the benefits.
Dvati, Single
-Ability Scores: -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence. While not as physically capable individually, their physical and mental coordination between the twins gives them an edge that more than makes up for this deficiency.

Spoiler: NOTE

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I had considered giving them a penalty to Constitution but their individual health will be penalized as is and doubling the problem didn't sit right with me. The big issue about melee attacks getting cheesed also seemed to be a widely voiced concern so Strength was chosen to keep melee damage in line and to keep with their lore emphasizing activities that required coordination and finesse rather than brute strength. Plus, they would have gained near to double extra carrying capacity without the debuff.

-Medium: As Medium creatures, dvati have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
-Dvati base land speed is 30 feet per twin.
-Two Bodies, Single Entity: Dvati twins always have a 'soulmate' that they come into the world with. As such, another player MUST play as a Dvati, Single. If you are going without a twin refer to the Dvati, Survivor.
-Initiative: Both players roll to determine the initiative count of both twins. Take the lower of the two rolls. They act on the same initiative count. Should one or both twins' initiative count change, such as a held action being triggered, the initiative count of both twins takes the worst of the two. For each Teamwork Feat BOTH twins have, increase the lower initiative roll by 1 for each Teamwork Feat, up to a maximum of the higher initiative count.

Spoiler: NOTE

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Wanted to make sure that initiative wasn't going to be a problem so I've spelled it out.

-Ability Score Change: Should Dvati twins be in possession of a magic item or subject to a spell that increases their mental ability score permanently (as per normal after 24 hours), they receive the benefits ONLY if both twins would receive the ability score increase. This applies to similar effects or abilities reliant on ability modifiers.
However, any effects that would decrease their mental ability scores affects them both since they share one mind.
-Saves: A mind-affecting ability or spell that affects one twin affects both of them at the same time, regardless of distance between the two. If a single such ability targets both twins at the same time, they make only one save between them and one player rolls for both twins (ex.: A single Sleep spell that covers an area both twins occupy won't cause them to roll twice). Dvati twins share one mind.
If an area of effect spell catches both twins, they save separately and take damage as normal unless it is a mind-affecting ability or spell as detailed previously.

Spoiler: NOTE

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This one just needed a little bit of rewording to clear things up. Otherwise, no changes.

-Status Effects: In most cases, an effect that applies to one twin fails to have an effect on the other. If a medusa turns one twin to stone, the other remains healthy. Negative levels are an exception to this rule. If one Dvati twin suffers a negative level, both of them incur its effects. The Dvati makes one save to remove the negative level.

Spoiler: NOTE

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This little paragraph seemed to get overlooked quite a bit so I put it in here. However, I am certain there are still some situations I haven't accounted for and I'd like to clean up those loose ends.

-Dvati Casting (Ex): Dvati twins share the same mind and power used for any type of casting, manifesting, or spell-like abilities. As such, they both must concentrate at the same time on any spell, power, or SLA they cast and spend the same actions required to cast or manifest, provoking attacks of opportunity as normal, although only one must supply material components. If spell failure is incurred, the twin with the worst penalty is applied to the casting attempt. Should one twin attempt to take any actions while one or the other is currently casting a spell, SLA, or manifesting a power; the attempt automatically fails and the resources are expended. (ex.: one casting a spell that takes a standard action or longer while the other tries to swing a sword at a nearby hobgoblin would ruin the spell.) Only one spell is cast but it may originate from either twin. Alternatively, one twin may cast the spell alone while the other takes no actions (including free actions). In this case, only the casting twin's Spell Failure chance is taken into account. However, the spell MUST originate from the casting twin in this case and they both still provoke attacks of opportunity.
-Linked Life Force (Ex): If one Dvati twin dies, the other slowly sickens and perishes. Each day that passes after a Dvati twin dies, the surviving twin takes 1d4 points of Constitution and Wisdom damage and takes a cumulative -1 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and saving throws. The ability damage and penalties remain (and cannot be healed or removed) until the living twin dies or his soulmate returns to life (at which time they immediately disappear). Level loss caused by returning to life via a raise dead or similar spell affects both Dvati twins as normal. Most Dvati prefer to commit ritual suicide if one twin dies without hope of return, as the pain of losing the close bond drives a Dvati to the brink of madness.

Spoiler: NOTE

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No changes to what was originally written except taking out the shared hp pool. Also consolidated the dying rules for Dvati into this one for an easier reference rather than having to search around for it.

-Coordinated Resolve (Ex): For each Teamwork feat BOTH twins have, increase both twins' maximum hp by 2. The Teamwork feats do NOT need to be the same, though a duplicate teamwork feat will still count towards this ability.

Spoiler: NOTE: Reasoning

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Since Linked Lifeforce is so integral with how the race feels, I decided to support Teamwork feats while lessening the penalty imposed to the player who decided to act as tank for his more magically inclined twin. (Though that will bring up issues too)

-Instinctive Teamwork (Ex): Dvati are so coordinated that complicated maneuvers requiring delicate timing or complete trust are second-nature to the twins. You may treat your twin as having a Teamwork Feat you know and you may grant its benefits to your twin. Ex.: If you have Paired Opportunists, you could grant your twin and yourself a +4 to AoO's as if they also had the feat. However, they could not gain the benefit from someone else who has the feat since your twin doesn't actually have the feat.

Spoiler: NOTE: Reasoning

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After ripping out quite a bit of the power in the race, I had to figure out a reason for people to actually WANT to play a character with his/her life and actions tied directly to another's well-being.

-Innate Mindlink (Su): The Dvati twins may communicate with each other as if under a constant Mindlink effect with the following changes: This power works across planes and, as a full-round action, a Dvati twin can determine his twin's current hit points and mental state (i.e. asleep, awake, unconscious, stressed). If one twin is on the same plane as the other, the twin learns the relative direction and distance to his partner.
Twins are in near constant communication with each other and feel ill at ease if they are unable to confirm the well-being of their other half since their link does not innately allow them to perceive what his/her other sees, hears, or otherwise perceives. Should one of them be slain, the other immediately knows of their demise and begins taking penalties as detailed under Linked Life Force.
This ability counts as the Bonded Mind feat for the purposes of taking feats with Bonded Mind as a prerequisite.

Spoiler: NOTE

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It wasn't clear whether or not this could be suppressed since this was within the wall of text. Since there was a power out there that already did most of what the racial ability did, it was easier to do it that way rather than type it all out. I also thought it appropriate to make it a stand-in for Bonded Mind since it is in almost all ways superior but still gives the same mechanical benefit.

-Spell Conductor: Personal spells (those with a target of "you") affect both twins simultaneously as long as they are on the same plane. Otherwise, they affect only the caster. Other spells function as normal.
A Dvati twin can choose to shift a spell that affects him to his twin so long as both of them are on the same plane. The shifted spell must have a range of touch and it must also be harmless. Using this ability requires a move action from the twin who is shifting the spell to focus and channel the spell's power and provokes an attack of opportunity. Aside from the change in target, the spell's duration and effects continue as normal. A Dvati can transfer a spell he casts from one twin to the other as part of the act of casting without using a move action. He cannot transfer spells used by others.

Spoiler: NOTE

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No changes except for consolidation.

-Pair Link: The close relationship between Dvati twins grants them appreciable benefits when they work together in combat. If a twin uses the aid another action to help his twin, he grants an additional +2 bonus (for a total of +4) on attack rolls or to Armor Class.

Spoiler: NOTE

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Took out the flanking bonus since the Teamwork feat is better and already having a constant flanking buddy is powerful enough to start with.

-Automatic Languages: Common and Dvati.
-Bonus Languages: Any.
Dvati requires two creatures speaking simultaneously. One twin provides a description of actions, while the other supplies words and descriptions of things. The two weave together to communicate in a uniquely Dvati manner. Other creatures can speak this tongue, but two Dvati-speaking creatures must work together. Otherwise, communication via this language is impossible. In most cases, Dvati use Common to speak with other races.

Spoiler: NOTE

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No changes to languages.

Spoiler: OTHER NOTES

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I took out the Echo Attack since it didn't make much sense for them to have a sonic-based ability. Darkvision seemed like it was tacked on so I removed that ability.
If it matters for anyone using this for a 3.5 game, Bard will still be Favored Class and the LA should still be +1. (Subject to change)

Race Points: Two Bodies Single Entity 0 RP, Dvati Casting -2 RP, Pair Link 2 RP, Innate Mindlink 4 RP, Spell Conductor 2 RP, Coordinated Resolve 2 RP, Instinctual Teamwork 4 RP, Linked Lifeforce -3 RP. Total 9 RP

Spoiler: NOTE

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This may or may not be accurate, I haven't had the opportunity to test how these abilities interact with each othere when played by TWO players.

[Blue Jay]

-Attacks of Opportunity: Each twin gets one Attack of Opportunity. Should they be able to make extra Attacks of Opportunity, they get the same amount as a regular character would +1. These may be divided up between the twins however they see fit. However, the number of attacks cannot exceed the amount one character could make. Any changes to their Ability scores decreases the maximum number of attacks that specific twin can make. It is just as mentally taxing to react to possible openings as it is to make their own.

Spoiler: Example

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Dvati twins with 18 Dex. (+4 Ability Modifier) has Combat Reflexes and can make 5 Attacks of Opportunity between the two of them. One of them could not initiate 5 attacks, the max is 4 for each.

Spoiler: NOTE

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I felt that each twin getting doubled AoO was still a bit too close to the original problem of too many actions. See the NOTE above for Actions.

I like your approach here, but I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

First, I think some attention should be given to threatened areas. I assume that each twin threatens a separate area. But can their threatened areas overlap, and do opponents provoke AoOs separately from each twin? For example, if I'm standing between them, and I do something that provokes an AoO, will each twin get an AoO against me because they both threaten me? Or would they only get one AoO total, since a single character usually only gets one attack per opportunity?

Second, Combat Reflexes gives additional AoOs equal to your Dex modifier, not total. So, all characters already get 1+(Dex mod) AoOs from Combat Reflexes. So, I think you can simplify the wording a lot here by just saying that any extra AoOs gained above the usual 1 per twin are shared between them.

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

I like your approach here, but I just wanted to point out a couple of things.

First, I think some attention should be given to threatened areas. I assume that each twin threatens a separate area. But can their threatened areas overlap, and do opponents provoke AoOs separately from each twin? For example, if I'm standing between them, and I do something that provokes an AoO, will each twin get an AoO against me because they both threaten me? Or would they only get one AoO total, since a single character usually only gets one attack per opportunity?

Second, Combat Reflexes gives additional AoOs equal to your Dex modifier, not total. So, all characters already get 1+(Dex mod) AoOs from Combat Reflexes. So, I think you can simplify the wording a lot here by just saying that any extra AoOs gained above the usual 1 per twin are shared between them.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, it's nice to see people helping out with this.

1. Yes, they threaten areas separately. As for provoking, I think they would provoke separately. If a goblin runs past both twins in a long hallway (one at the front of the party and one at the back for example), I don't think it makes much sense if the goblin can run past the first one and then finger his nose at the last one because the first one missed his AoO.
I'll put wording in there to clarify they provoke separately.

2. You are correct, I'll change the entry and example accordingly. The wording might make more sense if I gave the revised example too.

How is this?

-Attacks of Opportunity: Each twin gets one Attack of Opportunity and enemies provoke Attacks of Opportunity separately for each twin. Should the twins gain additional Attacks of Opportunity, they gain the same amount as a single character and may be divided between the twins however they see fit. However, the number of attacks a twin can make cannot exceed the amount a single character could make. The number of additional attacks they gain is equal to the higher twin's Dexterity modifier (if they are different). Any changes to either twin's Ability scores changes the maximum number of attacks that specific twin can make. It is just as mentally taxing to react to possible openings as it is to make their own.

Spoiler: Example

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Dvati twins with one at 18 Dex. (+4 Ability Modifier) and the other who has taken 4 points of Dex damage and is now at 14 Dex has Combat Reflexes. and can make 6 Attacks of Opportunity between the two of them. One of them could not initiate all 6 attacks, the max number of attacks is 5 for the twin at 18 Dex. and 3 for the twin at 14 Dex.

Also, that last post was just to allow for a simpler version of the race. I'll probably just put it into the first post as a spoiler since it seems to have gone unnoticed... or maybe I should put it in a new thread?

[Tsunamiatunzen1]

Hey folks! For any of you that are still subscribed/following the developments of this race, here's a bit of lore that I've been working on for them:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ss-Sands-Oasis

Feel free to hop on over and take a look!