OOTS #1101 - The Discussion Thread

[arrowed]

Seems like this would be possible. Also, if it is true and Durkon* could raise a small army with each casting, then his best course of action is probably to kill the entire town and raise them.

Death and Destruction for us all, indeed.

Also, regarding the issue of control, it's beginning to seem more and more likely that Durkon*'s Creed of Stone minions also know the spell, because the number of vampires raised on-panel alone likely exceeds Durkon*'s 30-HD limit, assuming he still has at least one of his retinue in thrall.

I don't think Durkon* has to keep these minions in thrall. They are a) notherners that Hel has dominion over the undead spirits of, and b) dwarves. Dwarves willing to die for their town. I suspect the vampire-versions will be more than happy to serve Hel in the same manner as Durkon*.

D* has told Durkon that another vampire spirit might have bucked at Hel's commands, but I feel like such examples will be in the minority, given the severity of Durkon's spirit's spite. The massacred dwarves are highly likely to have 'worst day selves' that hate their home and will happily slaughter the OotS to help Hel's plan.

[schmunzel]

Vampires have studied with Professor Higgins; the vein they drain flows mainly to the brain.

I do not want to start nitpicking here but the vein flows *from* the brain to the heart

sch

[Anarion]

Darn, this is like the Wile E. Coyote moment of the comic. If only Haley hadn't pointed out the problem, I bet none of those corpses would have risen as vampires.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

O Hel yeah!

- Me, seeing the last panel of this comic.

Bring it on.

[RatElemental]

I think vampire spirits are destroyed. They aren't souls, I think. If undead spirits persisted after death, as souls do, it would be possible to Resurrect them.

It is comforting to know that Durkon earned entry into Valhalla, but it actually raises a question for me:

If a dwarf dies with honor, gets resurrected, and then dies without honor, what happens to the soul then? Hel?

But it is possible to "resurrect" an undead creature. Libris Mortis has a spell for it called Revive Undead.

Whether that spell exists in Ootsworld is another matter. And also the body has to be whole, so if you dust when you die... Welp.

[GudBelkarIsGud]

I'm just gonna throw this out there:

DAYAAAAAAAAM.

THAT was a cliffhanger!

I think I'm a little lost though - wouldn't Not-Durkon have had to prepare individual spells for each person he raised? How many slots could he possibly have?

[Chei]

I don't think Durkon* has to keep these minions in thrall. They are a) notherners that Hel has dominion over the undead spirits of, and b) dwarves. Dwarves willing to die for their town. I suspect the vampire-versions will be more than happy to serve Hel in the same manner as Durkon*.

D* has told Durkon that another vampire spirit might have bucked at Hel's commands, but I feel like such examples will be in the minority, given the severity of Durkon's spirit's spite. The massacred dwarves are highly likely to have 'worst day selves' that hate their home and will happily slaughter the OotS to help Hel's plan.

My issue with the idea that these new spawn are not thralls is mainly the tactics they are using. "Play dead until the Order walks past you, then rise up and bum rush them" is a tactic that I have a hard time believing you could convince 20+ newborn free-willed creatures into executing for you in a short time. As for Hel's plan, I'm even less convinced all of those new vampires want the world to be destroyed with them on it. I doubt they even know the plan, in fact.

Giving those spawn free will raises too many questions about why they're all willing to follow orders. It's a lot simpler all around to assume they're thralls.

[schmunzel]

I'm afraid my position has changed somewhat since I posted that. It is my belief now that those vampires represent a couple of level-3 slots and 1 level-2 slot. Greg will NOT be limited by the number of slots in the slightest.

GW

yep read it since - and from my limited knowledge of the rules it probably even make sense.
Lets call it scary

how many 3rd level spellslots can Durkula have ? 3?? 4??

sch

[arrowed]

My issue with the idea that these new spawn are not thralls is mainly the tactics they are using. "Play dead until the Order walks past you, then rise up and bum rush them" is a tactic that I have a hard time believing you could convince 20+ newborn free-willed creatures into executing for you in a short time. As for Hel's plan, I'm even less convinced all of those new vampires want the world to be destroyed with them on it. I doubt they even know the plan, in fact.

Giving those spawn free will raises too many questions about why they're all willing to follow orders. It's a lot simpler all around to assume they're spawn.

*vaults to other side of fence* Parkour! I might argue that for vampires, pretend to be corpse then attack the unsuspecting living is some kind of undead instinct, but yeah, Occam's Razor and all that

[Lexible]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires.

i c wut u did there.

[Chei]

yep read it since - and from my limited knowledge of the rules it probably even make sense.
Lets call it scary

how many 3rd level spellslots can Durkula have ? 3?? 4??

sch

A cleric of Durkon*'s level has a base allotment of 4+1 3rd-level spells. That's 4 plus his domain spell, which probably can't be used for the special spell. Durkon* would then have one or two bonus spells at 3rd level: one from having a Wisdom of 16+ (guaranteed) and one from having a Wisdom of 24+ (unlikely but possible).

So the answer to your question for the purposes of this spell is: A LOT BECAUSE HE CAN PREPARE 3RD-LEVEL SPELLS AT 4TH, 5TH, 6TH, AND 7TH-LEVEL SLOTS.

[Jelissei]

Let's see: 13 vampires ahead of them, three lurking behind them they passed in panel 7, two more in panel 5, and eight from the previous strip, most of them passed in panels 1-3.

I make it at least 26 vampires.

Pretty sure it's 32 from the entrance on. All VampireDwarfs have distinctive features so you can recognize them and actually see how fast they (the order) are moving per panel.

edit: recounted, probably 27. Depending if the corpses on panel 3 (page 1101) are the three corpses on the left on panel 7 (page 1100), just re-arranged.

[HandofShadows]

Oh crap.

[Fincher]

Regarding the number of vampires, somebody pointed out earlier that the skin color of the bodies changed in the middle of this strip. So there could be as few as 16 that were turned. The ones at the beginning of the tunnel probably weren't so that the order wouldn't notice anything and would let their guards down.

Edit: Well, presumably at least 18. There were a couple near the end that aren't shown that well, but are in the vampire section.

[Matt620]

Now this is a plot twist done correctly. Abruptly, maybe, but definitely done well.

[Chei]

Regarding the number of vampires, somebody pointed out earlier that the skin color of the bodies changed in the middle of this strip. So there could be as few as 16 that were turned. The ones at the beginning of the tunnel probably weren't so that the order wouldn't notice anything and would let their guards down.

Edit: Well, presumably at least 18. There were a couple near the end that aren't shown that well, but are in the vampire section.

One point I would raise against that is that Brother Sandstone is probably the strongest dwarf killed outside those doors; he was capable of casting Thor's Lightning and turning undead at a high enough level to affect Gontor. Leaving him out for the sake of getting people to lower their guard probably wouldn't be as effective as raising him into a new cleric of Hel.

[Ganbatte]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

[KorvinStarmast]

One thing about undead-heavy RPG campaigns I never could stomach: all the damn vampires.

(1) Where is Wesley Snipes when you need him?
(2) Guessing Twilight wasn't your favorite movie either.

Remember to swing low, guys!!

Sweet Chariot ...

I think Belkar failed a Spot check.

In other news, Elan's a bard.

Vampires have studied with Professor Higgins; the vein they drain flows mainly to the brain.

*groan*

Once again, Haley makes her spot [plot device] roll.

That's her niche, and part of why she's a valuable party member.

But, you know, she was raised by a 1st edition thief....

Yeah, we sorta had to be clever or we'd not survive. It was tough, I tell ya, picking them locks in a raging blizzard inside of a volcano, walking up hill to get both in and out of the dungeons ...

Now this is a plot twist done correctly. Abruptly, maybe, but definitely done well.

Yeah it is. Bravo, Giant.

[littlebum2002]

If I'm ever judged in the hereafter, can I retain you as my attorney?

That would be a great TV show. A lawyer in a fantasy universe travels to all the afterlives and argues to get his clients into the one they desire.

[Draconi Redfir]

i feel like the vampires were faking being dead the whole time, and as Haley was speaking, they all just kind of thought

"Welp, Jig's up guys! They're on to us, everyone up!"

[Chei]

I fully expect Durkon to have lost a level or two in EXP from doing this, otherwise I'm gonna be pretty angry.
I mean, it's way too OP and convenient to now have "just learnt" the spell from the artifact-staff and be able to cast it willy nilly.
And what the hell is this, AoE effect? Assuming such a spell has a pretty high level slot how did he even manage to store so many casts to raise so many vampires within a single rest period?

What the hell? I thought Oots was happening in a universe where everyone has to play by the rules, but apparently that doesn't apply to the villains?

I may be wrong, getting old, or both, but you can't go below 0 XP at your current level when spending XP as a resource.

[Riftwolf]

Dang it! I Morbo-ed someone in the last thread about how vampires worked in D&D, and now it turns out there were righter than I!
On the plus side, Durkon* must've burnt through several spell slots to put the Order in this jam. On the downside, if any of the vampires behind them had another runestone, we could end up having an argument over the metaphysics of ownership when two spirits inhabit a single inventory panel... Shortly before our plucky adorable underdog dwarves are slaughtered.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I may be wrong, getting old, or both, but you can't go below 0 XP at your current level when spending XP as a resource.

Since the spell is not creating vampires, merely speeding up their awakening, I fail to see why it'd need XP at all.

On the plus side, Durkon* must've burnt through several spell slots to put the Order in this jam.

As I said, I suspect it's not much more than a level 3 spell not unlike they Animate Undead, which quickens the awakening of up to HD=2*(spell level) vampires.

GW

[Chei]

Since the spell is not creating vampires, merely speeding up their awakening, I fail to see why it'd need XP at all.

GW

Yeah, I'm not suggesting it does, just pointing out why it'd be impossible to lose levels from it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting it does, just pointing out why it'd be impossible to lose levels from it.

True enough; I wasn't intending to come across as disagreeing with you, just providing an alternative take on the question, but I can see how I could be misunderstood. My apologies.

GW

[Snails]

One point I would raise against that is that Brother Sandstone is probably the strongest dwarf killed outside those doors; he was capable of casting Thor's Lightning and turning undead at a high enough level to affect Gontor. Leaving him out for the sake of getting people to lower their guard probably wouldn't be as effective as raising him into a new cleric of Hel.

Unfortunately, being the strongest, it is quite likely he was last to fall. So the option to keep him as an enslaved vampire may not have been available.

I hate to say this, but was I the only that was thinking Roy should be chopping the heads off those corpses, just to be safe?

That they are vampires is pretty much the worst case scenario. But that they could be animated or other kinds of undead created at the hands of a HPoH, to be used as fodder in an ambush, was more my concern.

Of course, our Bardic Knowledge tells us this is likely to be a warm up battle. It does suggest that Greg and friends will have a limited number of spells if the showdown were to happen very soon. I do think that Durkon's mother and/or father will find their way into this tale, so the real showdown may be down the road a bit.

[Boring McReader]

Roy's brain can be one of his worst enemies. But other times it's his best ally. It's sort of an antihero.

Has Blackwing made that wing-finger lecturing gesture before?

[Chei]

True enough; I wasn't intending to come across as disagreeing with you, just providing an alternative take on the question, but I can see how I could be misunderstood. My apologies.

GW

No worries. I didn't engage the question fully so I can see how someone might think I agreed with the premise that there's an XP cost in the first place.

Animate Dead doesn't require XP, just materials, and I'm pretty much onboard with the idea that the Instant Vampirism spell is a close relative of it.

[JumboWheat01]

Does it at least take XP to learn a spell that's not part of your spell list? I'm guessing it does to research it, but the spell was already researched, Greg just had to learn it.

[Jasdoif]

Also, regarding the issue of control, it's beginning to seem more and more likely that Durkon*'s Creed of Stone minions also know the spell, because the number of vampires raised on-panel alone likely exceeds Durkon*'s 30-HD limit, assuming he still has at least one of his retinue in thrall.

Not necessarily. If all the spell does is accelerate the normal process, then they would be enslaved to the vampire that killed them rather than HPoH (unless of course he was the one that killed them). The cap on control is twice the vampire's dice and daisy chaining control is specifically allowed, so if HPoH had the spell prepared multiple times (and if the spells affect multiple targets), he could have been recursively building a cursed army.