New Star Wars Episode VIII trailer - and it looks awesome!!

[Cikomyr]

Just rewatched the trailer.

I really dont see the ESB feel. I mean, beside the Walkers and the training, both of which seem to have a completely different context than ESB..

All --> ALL scenes with Finns were awesome. From his duel with Phasma to his prisonner status.

[Olinser]

I refuse to believe that salvage operation (in which we see her cleaning afterwards) doesn't teach them anything about rebuilding things. That stretches disbelief.

Also, Luke only mentions a "T-16". In the movie, you have no idea what kind of thing that is. He could also be exaggerating/lying. At least we see Rey doing things, which is a huge improvement. I could only imagine if they didn't establish her staff fighting with action shots, and only had her mention that she could handle herself (like with the piloting).

Also also, we see the Falcon keep up with other fighters just final in the Battle of Endor; I don't know how you could reasonably not consider it the equal on an X-Wing.

The difference is that in the movie they mention a couple times that Luke is a good pilot (and there was a cut scene that was put back in to later cuts where Biggs talks about him being a good pilot), but even then Luke doesn't actually demonstrate particularly impressive flying at any point in the movies. In the attack on the Death Star he does a standard strafing run on a stationary target, shoots down a single TIE fighter mainly with the aid of his targeting computer and then immediately has to be saved by Wedge because he can't outfly a single TIE that's on his tail, flies in a straight line down a fairly wide trench while using his wingmen as meat shields, and was literally 1 second from being blown out of space by Vader when Han showed up to save him.

Rey, on the other hand, despite nobody mentioning her ever actually being in a ship that isn't a salvage hulk, manages to do pinpoint precision maneuvers in areas barely bigger than the ship, outfly two professionally trained military pilots, and perform a ludicrous flip in the air that magically manages to put her plot-locked-in-place-gun in the perfect position to shoot down a fighter. The last maneuver is what really catapults her into Sue territory in that engagement because it was 100% ridiculous and unnecessary, the plot would have functioned just as well if she'd just dodged the TIE and given Finn a good shot to take down the TIE, or heck just perform a normal reasonable maneuver around one of the ships/cliffs that puts her on the TIE's tail and shoot him down from the cockpit if you want Rey to get the kill credit (Lando and Nien were shooting from the Falcon cockpit in ROTJ).

That's kind of the story of Force Awakens. There are several points that COULD have been resolved in many different ways that don't involve Rey being Instant Awesome at everything she does. Outflying the TIEs is the first big one. Her magically fixing the Falcon with Han not even knowing what she did until she explained it was the 2nd one (and again, wholly unnecessary to the plot) - she could help fix it without being better than Han who literally lived in it for decades. Then when she escaped from the cell by consciously using advanced mental Force powers with no training less than 24 hours after even finding out she could use the Force is another huge one. There are any number of ways she could have escaped WITHOUT using an advanced active Force power, most simply by the guard going to unlock her to move her to a different location and her just beating him up with her previously-demonstrated combat skills. And finally using the Force to not just grab her lightsaber, but OVERPOWER Kylo's attempt to grab the lightsaber. Again using Luke as a comparison, literally years after learning he could use the Force and practicing on his own, and with at least some level instruction by a Jedi Master in the beginning, he could barely pull his lightsaber to him out of the snow. But Instant Expert Rey is able to do it once again less than 24 hours after finding out she can use the Force at all, and overpowers a powerful Force user in the process. Which is once again unnecessary. There are, again, many ways she could have gotten the lightsaber back that don't involve her overpowering Kylo with the Force that she shouldn't even be able to actively use to that degree yet.

The problem isn't that she's powerful, the problem is that she's given ridiculous levels of abilities that she shouldn't have and that she better than actual professionally trained people.

And yeah, Poe is kind of a pilot Mary Sue himself, his whole LOL KILLING ALL THE TIES maneuver was pretty bad.

[lunaticfringe]

Luke pretty much has to get rescued or assisted every other time he attempts something. I find dragging him into "who is the biggest Mary Sue" debates absurd.

[Peelee]

Just rewatched the trailer.

I really dont see the ESB feel. I mean, beside the Walkers and the training, both of which seem to have a completely different context than ESB..

You also don't see the ANH feel to Ep. VII, so that's not really surprising.

[Z3ro]

The difference is that in the movie they mention a couple times that Luke is a good pilot (and there was a cut scene that was put back in to later cuts where Biggs talks about him being a good pilot), but even then Luke doesn't actually demonstrate particularly impressive flying at any point in the movies. In the attack on the Death Star he does a standard strafing run on a stationary target, shoots down a single TIE fighter mainly with the aid of his targeting computer and then immediately has to be saved by Wedge because he can't outfly a single TIE that's on his tail, flies in a straight line down a fairly wide trench while using his wingmen as meat shields, and was literally 1 second from being blown out of space by Vader when Han showed up to save him.

This is why I can't take these arguments seriously. So in ANH, all we get is the mention that Luke's a good pilot (by himself, which how would he even know, he lives on a desert and has never flown a starship before). As far as impressive flying, he's one of a grand total of three pilots that make it back from the Death Star run. If that isn't impressive, I don't know what is. Seriously most of the other pilots were shot down just flying around (Porkins anyone?). He should have been dead in the first 2 minutes if he wasn't a main character.

[Cikomyr]

You also don't see the ANH feel to Ep. VII, so that's not really surprising.

I do see it. But its like people complaining that DS9 is a ripoff of B5. Ya gotta dig deeper

[Anteros]

Its not a "card", its a fact. Its a constatation. Look up OSP's video on Mary Sue, where it is pointed out that the Mary Sue has becomed one of the automated form of criticism against what should be "boring overpowered heros" , but only when they are female. Its a term that arised just when female heroins/protagonists were starting to be their own thing.

Calling someone a Mary Sue is automatically making a point of criticism centering on her gender first and foremost, even if she has nothing to do with the actual Mary Sue, who was a parody of self-insert characters.

James Bond, Batman, Harry Potter, Eragon, Ichigo, Edward Cullen, Elminster, Thrall...should I go on here? Because I can. Easily.

Richard Rahl, Drizzt, Wesley Crusher, Kurito, Superman, Miles Morales, Captain America, Captain Kirk, Dominic Deegan...I'm just trying to grab at least one from every major form of media here.

The fact that you're so focused on her gender says a lot more about you than it does about the people you're accusing of sexism.

This is why I can't take these arguments seriously. So in ANH, all we get is the mention that Luke's a good pilot (by himself, which how would he even know, he lives on a desert and has never flown a starship before). As far as impressive flying, he's one of a grand total of three pilots that make it back from the Death Star run. If that isn't impressive, I don't know what is. Seriously most of the other pilots were shot down just flying around (Porkins anyone?). He should have been dead in the first 2 minutes if he wasn't a main character.

Luke explicitly only survives that scene because he's rescued. It's not a very good example.

[Peelee]

James Bond, Batman, Harry Potter, Eragon, Ichigo, Edward Cullen, Elminster, Thrall...should I go on here? Because I can. Easily.

Richard Rahl, Drizzt, Wesley Crusher, Kurito, Superman, Miles Morales, Captain America, Captain Kirk, Dominic Deegan...I'm just trying to grab at least one from every major form of media here.

The fact that you're so focused on her gender says a lot more about you than it does about the people you're accusing of sexism.

Hold on just a damned second. Harry Potter was damn near incompetent, and would have died countless times if not for his friends

I do see it. But its like people complaining that DS9 is a ripoff of B5. Ya gotta dig deeper

It'd be more like if people complained that DS9 was a rip-off of TNG. If TNG had been on a space station that was by a wormhole near a planet of people oppressed by the former owners of the space station.

[Z3ro]

Luke explicitly only survives that scene because he's rescued. It's not a very good example.

Not the whole time! He's rescued once, but otherwise flies around untouched. Look at Porkins; he's literally just flying around and gets shot down. How does Luke, who has no military training, survive more than a moment against trained soldiers? Imagine putting you or me in an F-15 and sending us up in the air against another air force; how long do you think we'd last?

[Jayngfet]

Just dropping in to point out that anyone defending Rey by saying it's only as bad as Anakin was in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, or even Revenge of the Sith, has effectivley lost the argument. Lloyd and Christensen were capable of better but the story and script simply wasn't there. Hell, the terrible dialogue was something even Mark owned up to about Phantom Menace in general and Star Wars as a whole and to this day Christensen can't even do an interview at a Star Wars event without getting assaulted by memes about sand. We have to remember that they spent several years being mocked and it took literal thousands of pages of material and days worth of TV series footage to salvage the entire prequel era to a lot of people, and the majority of that happened by virtue of completley changing vast swathes of character dynamics, dropping in entirely new material, and in some cases blatant retcons. Anakin Skywalker as portrayed in the movies is not a good character and not a good fit into the universe as established by any materials previous to his films, including the original trilogy.

The hope for Force Awakens, and this is something Abrams and Kennedy were well aware of, wasn't that it'd be a watchable movie, but it'd give us a whole new caliber of Star Wars movies where the characters were a bit more fleshed out, the dialogue had a shade of nuance, and the story had progressed. You can see in the way they handled the lead up to that film they promised a film like that and then very much did not deliver. As a standalone movie it's ok, but it very much not only had nearly every problem plaguing the Phantom Menace, but for every one it fixed it had a whole new problem added to elements like visual design or art direction, to say nothing of the script itself.

Rey as a character may or may not be salvagable. But the problem isn't just Rey, but the entire version of the Star Wars Galaxy she enhabits also needs to be salvaged, and I have the sinking suspicion that while steps have been taken, it's too little too late.

Not the whole time! He's rescued once, but otherwise flies around untouched. Look at Porkins; he's literally just flying around and gets shot down. How does Luke, who has no military training, survive more than a moment against trained soldiers? Imagine putting you or me in an F-15 and sending us up in the air against another air force; how long do you think we'd last?

Because Luke isn't a random guy off the street. If you actually bother to watch the film it's established multiple times he's a bush pilot with his own aircraft who routinely flies tight manouvers and hits targets smaller than military standard. The only reason we don't see him fly it in the actual film is because the miniature they had for it broke and the entire sequence with him and the other bush pilots had to get cut from the film itself for editing purposes. But even without that it is in fact established no less than four times that he is a pilot of that caliber.

[Psyren]

Rey is comparatively composed and cool.

You mean the same Rey that assaulted a complete stranger because a droid recognized the jacket he was wearing?

2) Luke loses a fair amount. To the dude in the cantina. To the tauntaun. To Vader. Rey's only significant defeat in TFA is when Kylo nabs her, and that defeat is too quickly reversed to stick properly.

Luke was a farmer to start with - he had no need for survival or combat training. Rey's profession (scavenger) and surroundings were much more dangerous. I'd expect her to be able to fend for herself a little better before being trained.

[Jayngfet]

The big distinction with Rey, and to a far greater extent Jyn, is that while they could be a shade tougher, the film feels the need to hand them victories while their enemies stand there and their allies gawk at how cool they are. Rey beat two guys with a stick and Jyn beat eight with a smaller stick, because after the first move in both cases the enemy felt content to stand there and get hit without retaliating. If, say, Rey hit them a bit but she took a hit or two back in return, it probably wouldn't be a point of contention. But a flawless victory, or later victories with cosmetic flaws(she misses one shot but hits dead center with the next one, without even getting scuffed up like Leia did), are ridiculous when taken at face value.

Not to mention that you really can't claim Luke was defenseless and with no experience. Tattoine is full of raiders and he brought a rifle with him for a reason when looking for R2-D2. Claiming he lived a peaceful existance is just trying to change what's in the film.

[Legato Endless]

The difference is that in the movie they mention a couple times that Luke is a good pilot (and there was a cut scene that was put back in to later cuts where Biggs talks about him being a good pilot), but even then Luke doesn't actually demonstrate particularly impressive flying at any point in the movies. In the attack on the Death Star he does a standard strafing run on a stationary target, shoots down a single TIE fighter mainly with the aid of his targeting computer and then immediately has to be saved by Wedge because he can't outfly a single TIE that's on his tail, flies in a straight line down a fairly wide trench while using his wingmen as meat shields, and was literally 1 second from being blown out of space by Vader when Han showed up to save him.

That elides the fact that Luke manages to evade Vader for precious seconds, something his peers were completely unable to do and whom Vader obliterates with impunity. Luke's stellar caliber is established from his ability to routinely make shots with weaponry against targets of such size that it should be almost impossible for a computer, to being able to actually grant acknowledgement from Vader right before getting killed that the Force must be strong with this one for his talents.

It's also notable that no one who makes Star Wars IP would agree with the 'merely good' assessment. In the Legends continuity Lucas Arts has a whole slew of video games where Luke immediately following Yavin takes leadership of a legendary flight group of the Alliance's best pilots. It's explicitly made up of the best pilots and fighters. From Rogue Squadron to the X-wing comics to the more recent X-wing minis game Luke is explicitly one of the best pilots in the Galaxy at the start of Episode 4. Nor have I ever heard complaints within the fandom that this depiction was unnaturally extrapolated from what was shown on screen. If Luke is only 'good' no one (besides Poe) is great.

[Z3ro]

Because Luke isn't a random guy off the street.

Yes he is! He's literally just a farmer, which is just about as random off the street as you get.

If you actually bother to watch the film

No need to get testy

it's established multiple times he's a bush pilot with his own aircraft

No it's not. There's not a single line in the original film that suggest he owns anything beyond the speeder he sells in Mos Eisley. Sure he mentions flying some, but never says he owns anything

who routinely flies tight manouvers and hits targets smaller than military standard.

We have no idea how truthful he's being in any of those scenes. He also only says he flies in canyons (foreshadowing the trench run) but not how tight of maneuvers he flies, nor how they compare to military training. We also don't know how big womp rats are to "military standard", except the pilots think they're small.

The only reason we don't see him fly it in the actual film is because the miniature they had for it broke and the entire sequence with him and the other bush pilots had to get cut from the film itself for editing purposes. But even without that it is in fact established no less than four times that he is a pilot of that caliber.

I can only judge what's on the screen. The only person in the original movie who suggest Luke's a good pilot is Luke, which I don't consider an unbiased source. There's certainly no reason given that a farmer should be able to stay in the fight against trained soldiers for more than a few moments even hinted at in the film.

[Jayngfet]

Yes he is! He's literally just a farmer, which is just about as random off the street as you get.

He's a bush pilot. Biggs says it outright.

No it's not. There's not a single line in the original film that suggest he owns anything beyond the speeder he sells in Mos Eisley. Sure he mentions flying some, but never says he owns anything

He explicitly mentions owning a T-16 and flying in it.

We have no idea how truthful he's being in any of those scenes. He also only says he flies in canyons (foreshadowing the trench run) but not how tight of maneuvers he flies, nor how they compare to military training. We also don't know how big womp rats are to "military standard", except the pilots think they're small.

Biggs was there. His family mentions Biggs being there. They actually shot the parts with Biggs being there and you can find them in the deleted scenes. When we actually see Biggs they reminisce about how great it was flying together and then Biggs says Luke is one of the best bush pilots in the outer rim, and Biggs has been out there and is clearing him for a life or death mission.

I can only judge what's on the screen. The only person in the original movie who suggest Luke's a good pilot is Luke, which I don't consider an unbiased source. There's certainly no reason given that a farmer should be able to stay in the fight against trained soldiers for more than a few moments even hinted at in the film.

Luke and Biggs. The actual military pilot. The one who outright says Luke is that good multiple times.

Again, watch the movie before you act like you know what you're talking about.

[Anteros]

Hold on just a damned second. Harry Potter was damn near incompetent, and would have died countless times if not for his friends

It'd be more like if people complained that DS9 was a rip-off of TNG. If TNG had been on a space station that was by a wormhole near a planet of people oppressed by the former owners of the space station.

You can argue that a few of my examples aren't actually Mary Sues, just like you can with Rey. The point is that people make the claim.

[Z3ro]

Again, watch the movie before you act like you know what you're talking about.

In the interest of fairness, I rewatched the relevant scenes right now. So...

He's a bush pilot. Biggs says it outright.

This is true. I never argued otherwise. I will note that "bush pilot" is not usually a compliment

He explicitly mentions owning a T-16 and flying in it.

To be incredibly pedantic, in the scene, he says "my T-16 back home". No mention of ownership is given, so it could go either way. He certainly doesn't own anything like an X-Wing.

Biggs was there. His family mentions Biggs being there. They actually shot the parts with Biggs being there and you can find them in the deleted scenes.

Deleted scenes are not part of a movie. They are, in fact, explicitly not part of the movie. Given that Lucas added a bunch of scenes to the special edition, we can assume they weren't important enough to make the cut and shouldn't be included in any discussion.

When we actually see Biggs they reminisce about how great it was flying together and then Biggs says Luke is one of the best bush pilots in the outer rim,

This is true, but it should be noted was originally cut from the movie, only added back in the special addition. It wasn't in the original movie, which is what TFA really should be compared to.

and Biggs has been out there and is clearing him for a life or death mission.

We don't actually know that Biggs is flying these missions. It's never outright stated in the film. For all we know it's Biggs first mission; given that he wasn't that much older than Luke, and that they're friends, it's entirely possible Biggs hasn't seen any real action. But, in either direction, we don't actually know.

Luke and Biggs. The actual military pilot.

Given that they let Luke fly, again, we don't actually know Biggs is a military pilot. They might just be pulling anyone who can handle a stick, Independence day style. Given the fact that Luke is there, I'd suggest that's exactly what they're doing.

The one who outright says Luke is that good multiple times.

Just once, actually, the bush pilot line. Rewatch the movie before telling others to watch.

[Jayngfet]

In the interest of fairness, I rewatched the relevant scenes right now. So...



This is true. I never argued otherwise. I will note that "bush pilot" is not usually a compliment

It's very clearly meant to be in this context.

To be incredibly pedantic, in the scene, he says "my T-16 back home". No mention of ownership is given, so it could go either way. He certainly doesn't own anything like an X-Wing.

What part of "MY T-16" is hard for you to grasp.

Deleted scenes are not part of a movie. They are, in fact, explicitly not part of the movie. Given that Lucas added a bunch of scenes to the special edition, we can assume they weren't important enough to make the cut and shouldn't be included in any discussion.



This is true, but it should be noted was originally cut from the movie, only added back in the special addition. It wasn't in the original movie, which is what TFA really should be compared to.

Only the special editions are counted by Lucasfilm. The original theatrical cut isn't what they go off under any circumstances. It's not what's played in theaters now, broadcast on tv, or included in most sets. It's been this way for literally over twenty years at this point.

We don't actually know that Biggs is flying these missions. It's never outright stated in the film. For all we know it's Biggs first mission; given that he wasn't that much older than Luke, and that they're friends, it's entirely possible Biggs hasn't seen any real action. But, in either direction, we don't actually know.

That's presumption on your part. Biggs is very clearly there and accepted as a pilot.

Given that they let Luke fly, again, we don't actually know Biggs is a military pilot. They might just be pulling anyone who can handle a stick, Independence day style. Given the fact that Luke is there, I'd suggest that's exactly what they're doing.

That's a presumption that can't be backed. If anything all supplimentary material makes it clear that while the rebellion always needs pilots, more or less every named pilot there had been flying for the rebellion for some time. Even if you want to be pedantic and use it as a self contained movie, that just means it can't be judged either way.

Just once, actually, the bush pilot line. Rewatch the movie before telling others to watch.

I told you to, you did, and you're being pedantic while still being wrong. Don't cry to me about it.

[Kitten Champion]

You can argue that a few of my examples aren't actually Mary Sues, just like you can with Rey. The point is that people make the claim.

Hmm... then you probably meant Bella Swan.

[Mordar]

That's not even a little bit true. And there are a number of reasons why.
First, the count is more or less irrelevant. All that's saying is he might be a very powerful jedi with a very high ceiling on his powers. It says nothing about how hard he would have to work to get those powers, which is where the entire problem comes from.

Not "very high ceiling" but actually "the highest ever recorded". It is included in the story to tell us of his nigh-unlimited potential. You're right, there's no mention (or discounting) of the work it would take...but just that he could be the most powerful ever.

All your other arguments are simply silly; if there's one thing all major force wielders have been shown to do, it's fly by the seat of their pants. Being naturally good at flying by instinct is, like, the first sign someone is force sensitive. It always has been, from A New Hope onwards.
Similarly, acting by instinct or accident is also the sign of any force user. It's been made pretty darned clear that not getting too bogged down by overthinking and just letting the force act through you is the best way for a Jedi to use it. So having a child do things by "accident" isn't that far of a stretch.

Instinct is picking the right direction to turn absent information on the direction, or properly reading that the guy you're bargaining with is totally trying to scam you. Instinct is the feeling you're being watched, or the tickle that says he's going to shoot you. Instinct isn't what puts you in the cockpit of a fighter and manages you through that big fight and puts you in the exact right place to save the day.

Also, instinct *is* what should have warned Luke he was about to get Tusken Raidered on that ridge. But then again, he clearly isn't as sensitive as Anakin...or Rey.

And, finally, your point is also ridiculous because those are all the most hated things about The Phantom Menace. With the possible exception of Jar Jar, everyone hated the way young Anakin acted more than anything else about that movie. Nobody is saying those things weren't ridiculous - because they were - but you seem to think that everyone was fine with it until Rey came along, and that Rey was given less special treatment. Both of those statements are false.

Given that I specifically called Anakin out as the second most hated character in all of Star Wars (though granted not in the same post) you may want to reconsider this section. My point was that Rey isn't close to the worst MS offender in the film series. Under no circumstance am I suggesting that everyone was alright with Anakin. If not for Jar Jar the hate would have been overwhelming. Perhaps that was the reason for Jar Jar's inclusion...to draw fire. That being said, I recently rewatched TPM and actually thought much of the pod race itself was really well done. The pre-race elements less so, but during the actual race he looked competent and capable.

The fact is that being gifted to a superhuman level is the very foundation of being force sensitive. It's found everywhere you have a story about a force sensitive learning about the force; they're always amazing fighters, pilots, and/or just plain ridiculously lucky. And all those things are fine, because they've been well established, and all the other characters can do them. Actually wielding the force is another matter entirely; all indications point to it being something that take intense training and lots of time; in KotOR (which, while no longer canon, I will maintain remains a good baseline until we get a better idea), Revan (who had already had jedi training and was also extremely powerful) took weeks to learn his first force powers, with the hands on training of 3 jedi masters and a direct link to another extremely powerful jedi. Even that was considered astonishing, and we're told it normally takes years for such prowess to come, if it comes at all. To suggest that it isn't ridiculous for someone to use jedi mind tricks and such with no training at all makes no sense.

Even if you discount KotOR, Luke - another very strong force user - took far more time to even move his lightsaber.

I'm wondering if you're tying me together with someone else's posts. I said specifically that the mind trick, while funny, wasn't a good inclusion for the story. But again using the original trilogy as a baseline, it does seem that the telekinesis trick can be accomplished with just a lot of will and a little advice. Remember, Luke wasn't trained on that trick...and while he may have practiced we just can't be sure. So in a time of desperate need (about to be Wampa chow) he taps something new and it works. Cool effect. No issue.

The fact is that Rey is advancing at a rate which basically says "screw your canon, this girl's awesome because reasons". It's not that she's powerful, and it's certainly not that she's a girl, it's that there is absolutely no effort put into her learning the powers, it's that there's absolutely no reason, either in-universe or from a narrative standpoint, why she has to do those things, and it's that there's absolutely no respect for what has already been established as the norm for the franchise.

Granted, that we know of yet. Also, I agree with the bouncy writing point.

James Bond, Batman, Harry Potter, Eragon, Ichigo, Edward Cullen, Elminster, Thrall...should I go on here? Because I can. Easily.

Hold on just a damned second. Harry Potter was damn near incompetent, and would have died countless times if not for his friends

Which was a key element in my rant reasonably considered post long ago about how the only wizard named Harry that is MS is Dresden...

Just dropping in to point out that anyone defending Rey by saying it's only as bad as Anakin was in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, or even Revenge of the Sith, has effectivley lost the argument.

Saying that Anakin is the greatest MS in the Star Wars filmdom isn't a defense of Rey. It is a statement of unassailable fact. Mostly.

- M

[Chives]

Accusations of sexism in thread -> thread turns into dumpster fire.

Every. Freaking. Place on the Internet.

[Zevox]

Eh, can't say the trailer did anything for me. Though perhaps at this point there's just nothing a mere trailer can do for me. Short little snippets aren't likely to dispel the expectation that it will just be another mediocre movie like its predecessor, only actually seeing it and it proving that expectation wrong will.

[Z3ro]

Man, I know I should just walk away but I can't help myself.

It's very clearly meant to be in this context.

Even if it is, it's a pretty back-handed compliment.

What part of "MY T-16" is hard for you to grasp.

Again with the attitude. I might say it's MY country, but that doesn't mean I literally own it.

Only the special editions are counted by Lucasfilm. The original theatrical cut isn't what they go off under any circumstances. It's not what's played in theaters now, broadcast on tv, or included in most sets. It's been this way for literally over twenty years at this point.

Fair enough, doesn't change my point.

That's presumption on your part. Biggs is very clearly there and accepted as a pilot.

Accepted, maybe, but we have no idea what level of pilot skill Biggs has. For all we know it's the camaraderie of "we're all going to die, so let's do it together".

That's a presumption that can't be backed. If anything all supplimentary material makes it clear that while the rebellion always needs pilots, more or less every named pilot there had been flying for the rebellion for some time. Even if you want to be pedantic and use it as a self contained movie, that just means it can't be judged either way.

I never said otherwise. I'm simply pointing out there's no evidence Luke's this great pilot who should be able to stand up to trained military personnel except his word and the word of his good friend.

I told you to, you did, and you're being pedantic while still being wrong. Don't cry to me about it.

Sorry, I don't normally consider requests to be less caustic to be crying. I'll note it for the future.

[Peelee]

It wasn't in the original movie, which is what TFA really should be compared to.

This is the strangest version of "no true Scotsman" I've ever seen.

[Z3ro]

This is the strangest version of "no true Scotsman" I've ever seen.

Can you honestly say there won't be a TFA special edition in 15 years? And what might it add?

Even if you don't, my point still stands.

[Lethologica]

It's interesting to think about how technological limitations may have impacted the Luke-Rey comparison. The trench run doesn't look all that impressive, but there's no way the special effects crew could have pulled off anything half as impressive as what happened in TFA. Constraints improving storytelling?

Just dropping in to point out that anyone defending Rey by saying it's only as bad as Anakin was in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, or even Revenge of the Sith, has effectivley lost the argument. Lloyd and Christensen were capable of better but the story and script simply wasn't there. Hell, the terrible dialogue was something even Mark owned up to about Phantom Menace in general...

That's a weird tangent. People have complained that the story was derivative (and I agree), but not that it was terrible. There have been basically no complaints about the dialogue (and while I wouldn't say it was great, it was nowhere near the cringe of the prequels). More to the point, both those complaints are only modestly impacted by the discussion about whether Rey is a Mary Sue.

Anyone pointing out that Rey is not as bad a Mary Sue as Anakin is correct, while not saying that Rey is not a Mary Sue. Opinions can differ by degrees, rather than being binary opposites.

You mean the same Rey that assaulted a complete stranger because a droid recognized the jacket he was wearing?

Given the situation BB-8 left Poe in, it's completely natural to have an urgent response to Poe's jacket. When the dude wearing Poe's jacket runs away, Rey chases and applies enough force to make him stop. If it's meant to hint at Rey having a problem with anger, it's a damn subtle hint in a series that doesn't do subtle very well.

Luke was a farmer to start with - he had no need for survival or combat training. Rey's profession (scavenger) and surroundings were much more dangerous. I'd expect her to be able to fend for herself a little better before being trained.

Luke was an amateur pilot and wanted to join the Imperial Academy, a military training program. He lived on a farm in a desert backwater where bandits and scum were common, meaning it was important that he be able to at least handle a weapon. He had parents to support him, meaning he could take time from surviving to train if he wanted; and friends who shared his interests, meaning he could train with them). I would expect Rey to have superior awareness and survival skills, but for fighting, Rey's background is not clearly superior. Her results, however, are.

[Aeson]

I never said otherwise. I'm simply pointing out there's no evidence Luke's this great pilot who should be able to stand up to trained military personnel except his word and the word of his good friend.

When Luke is in Obi-Wan Kenobi's house, Obi-Wan says "I understand you've become a fair pilot, yourself" or something along those lines. If I'm not mistaken, that was in the original theatrical release of the film, so that also addresses your issue about evidence for Luke's piloting ability from sources other than Luke not being part of the original movie. Assuming that we're accepting the evidence of the Prequel Trilogy, Obi-Wan Kenobi ought to know what he's talking about when it comes to evaluating piloting skill. If you want to argue that Obi-Wan is basing his assessment of Luke's ability on things that Luke has told him, I would counter firstly that Luke does not appear to be particularly familiar with "old Ben" and secondly that taking Obi-Wan's assessment as being based entirely on things that Luke has told him is at least as large an assumption as assuming that Obi-Wan might have seen Luke flying once or twice; if you would instead like to dismiss the evidence of the Prequel Trilogy due to its nonexistence until about twenty years after the original theatrical release, well, I cannot really argue against that, but unless they're shown to be unreliable, heavily biased, or incompetent in the area under discussion there comes a point where you simply have to take what a character says at face value.

Furthermore, while I am not going to argue about whether or not that counts as enough to rate him at "equal to or better than a properly trained military pilot," I will point out that there are historical examples of people with under ten hours of total flying time - not solo flying time, total flying time - being sent into combat and surviving against enormously more experienced or better-trained pilots, and sometimes even shooting them down. Inexperience and lack of formal training does not automatically mean that one cannot realistically defeat, let alone survive against, more experienced and better-trained opponents.

I will also point out that there is no evidence within A New Hope for Luke being particularly better than any of the other Rebel - or, for that matter, Imperial - pilots who participated in the Death Star attack, or in the defense of Echo Base. Luckier than the majority, certainly, but not notably better. There are also at least two points during the Death Star attack where Luke makes what could be seen as rookie combat pilot errors:
- He remains in a dive during a strafing run too long and gets "a little cooked" because of it.
- He becomes separated from and loses track of his wingmen during the dogfight.

That elides the fact that Luke manages to evade Vader for precious seconds, something his peers were completely unable to do and whom Vader obliterates with impunity. Luke's stellar caliber is established from his ability to routinely make shots with weaponry against targets of such size that it should be almost impossible for a computer, to being able to actually grant acknowledgement from Vader right before getting killed that the Force must be strong with this one for his talents.

In my DVD copy of A New Hope, the timelines are as follows:
First Trench Run:
- Y-Wings into the trench at 109:48
- First range to launch point about 47000 unspecified range units at 110:08
- Guns fall silent at 110:15
- Y-Wing formation sights TIE formation at 110:22
- Starboard Y-Wing downed at 110:37
- Lead Y-Wing downed at 110:48
- Last Y-Wing downed at 111:00

Second Trench Run (first Red Group run)
- Into the trench at 111:48
- Guns fall silent at 111:55
- TIEs spotted at 112:03
- Red Leader ~28000 unspecified range units to launch point 112:09
- Starboard wingman downed at 112:29
- Port wingman downed at 112:39
- Leader launches torpedo 112:43 after range counter reaches 0
- Leader downed 113:24

Death Star 1 minute from firing position 113:26

Third Trench Run (second Red Group run)
- Guns fall silent at 114:18
- Fighters spotted at 114:23
- Wedge's fighter hit at 114:30, out of the trench by 114:40
- Biggs shot down 115:04
- Death Star 30s from firing position at 115:11
- Range to launch point shown as about ~36000 at 115:23
- R2 hit by Vader's first shots at Luke's X-Wing 116:11
- Death Star in firing position 116:22
- Han Solo shoots down one of Vader's wingman 116:40
- 116:50 Luke launches torpedoes.

Gold Group's trench run lasts about 60 seconds of movie time counting to when the lead Y-Wing, which seems to be the one chosen to launch the torpedoes, is downed, or about 72 seconds of movie time if you count to when the third Y-Wing is downed. Red Leader's trench run lasts 55 seconds of movie-time between entering the trench and launching the torpedoes, or about 96 seconds of movie-time if you count to when Red Leader is downed. Based on the flow of conversation and the way the scenes are cut, it would appear likely that these first two runs are shown in approximately "real" time. Luke's trench run corresponds approximately with the time it takes for the Death Star to go from being 1 in-universe minute from firing position to being in firing position. I would therefore suggest that Luke probably did not evade Darth Vader for any significantly greater length of time than any of the other last surviving pilots on the trench runs.

[ImperiousLeader]

Accusations of sexism in thread -> thread turns into dumpster fire.

Every. Freaking. Place on the Internet.

Well, it's a weakness of both the English language and just how people perceive arguments. Arguing that a statement is sexist is invariably extended to imply the person making the statement is sexist, and then it becomes way too personal. Which, IMO, is far too reductive. One sexist statement doesn't make someone sexist ... but the 7th or 12th? Probably.

And, to be honest, I do wonder ... had nothing changed in TFA except for Rey's gender, would she, now he, be getting this kind of attack? Why does Rey have to provide character references in triplicate for every exceptional thing she does, in a story about exceptional people? Why is "she's the heroine, who's just discovering an untapped well of potential through her connection to the force, in a movie called The Force AWAKENS" insufficient?

I like Rey a lot, she's an interesting character, and if we must compare her to Luke, then consider:

Luke had the stability of family and friends. Rey, otoh, is much more of a loner. Both want to escape their desert planet, but for Luke, it's the call of adventure, a desire to leave home. Rey, she's waiting to leave with her family, ie, she wants to go home. Rey has had to be far more independent than Luke, by virtue of her background.

Moving on:

I'm looking forward to The Last Jedi, and the trailer was interesting, but I expect that Luke's warning can be applied to most of that trailer. I dunno, I'm trying not to speculate, because I expect to be wrong. I'm just trying to collapse into tears when I see Carrie Fisher in all her regal glory.

[Jayngfet]

Anyone pointing out that Rey is not as bad a Mary Sue as Anakin is correct, while not saying that Rey is not a Mary Sue. Opinions can differ by degrees, rather than being binary opposites.

The comparison itself as a defense in any capacity is absurd. I think we've all acclimated to the prequel era and there's a lot to love about it, but Anakin should in no way be used to defend Rey. Even if their arcs were really comparable rather than being wildly different from the word go, we do have to keep perspective. People mock the entire arc Anakin had and have been for decades now. There are entire forums and groups on nearly every top tier social media site dedicated to just memes on how bad it was, and they aren't obscure ones either.

It's a bit like saying a house fire isn't as bad as a forest fire. You're technically right, but everything being on fire isn't really a positive no matter how you frame it.

[Legato Endless]

When Luke is in Obi-Wan Kenobi's house, Obi-Wan says "I understand you've become a fair pilot, yourself" or something along those lines.

The relevant quote:

Obi-Wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you've become quite a good pilot yourself. And he was a good friend.

I will also point out that there is no evidence within A New Hope for Luke being particularly better than any of the other Rebel - or, for that matter, Imperial - pilots who participated in the Death Star attack, or in the defense of Echo Base. Luckier than the majority, certainly, but not notably better.

Luke is shown evading fire from Vader, something no other pilot is depicted doing. All of the others once Vader closes to attack range are destroyed when he opens fire. He also then survives Vader's next attempt albeit with R2 disabled. Wedge also survives a disabling hit, but the shot implies this to be the work of Vader's wingman.

We also see a shot of Vader trying to lock down Luke on his targeting screen, but not initially succeeding, whereas the previous shot of Vader's computer shows him swiftly locking and firing on the target. This is, in the language of film, a deliberate contrast. If you don't find this significant, Vader certainly does, as he exclaim during the exchange:

Darth Vader: The Force is strong with this one!

Unless one cares to exercise the strange idea this has nothing to do with Luke's piloting ability, which is by far the most logical conclusion given the context. Luke was not lucky.

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."
-Obi-wan

Furthermore, it is not difficult to divine the film makers intentions throughout this. Beyond Luke being consistently shown as a superlative pilot in associated media, the original script and various deleted scenes make Luke out to be something special. The 1997 special edition reintegrates the following dialogue:

RED LEADER:Are you... Luke Skywalker? Have you been checked out on the Incom T-sixty-five?
BIGGS:Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories.