4th edition!

[skywalker]

Yah, I have to say that at my gaming table, laptops make everything better, not worse. It requires a little more planning on the part of all participating, but there are very powerful tools around that can help tremendously. I think the online D&D will be great. Or are y'all talking about something different from what I'm talking about? I'm talking about the virtual table, or whatever. Which is just like PbP, but better.

As for laptops increasing table clutter, I have to say from experience, that that is not the case. You have the MM, the DMG, and the PHB all right in front of you, hyperlinked and speedy. Now, I am very proud of the fact that I can find a spell in the PHB before my DM can find it in the SRD, but that doesn't change the fact that having everything on computers speeds up the game tremendously. If I had access to a .pdf copy of Tome of Battle, I literally wouldn't need any books for the characters I like to play at all.

I also wonder what all this clamor is about them making some of the books "online only." This sounds like a wonderful business strategy to me. Has anyone else here ever bought an e-book? They're thrillingly cheap, mainly because a large part of the cost of a book you buy is from the printing. So lets see here, instead of spending time printing hardcover, full color tomes full of pictures, they'll publish it online as a .pdf and also not have to worry about errata and the like because there's nothing printed, they just go to the .pdf and change a few words, authorize customers who've already purchased to DL the new version, etc.

Again, they're switching to a format that reduces clutter on the bookshelf and table, saves trees and ink, drives cost down by skipping out on printing and shipping, meaning lower prices for the consumer, meaning they will sell more books, because when one of us used to say, "Ah, well, I'm really interested in MMV, but I'd rather eat for the rest of the month than buy it, plus I'd rather not drive all the way to borders just to see if they have it," we will instead be able to say, "Ah, well, I'm really interested in MMV, I suppose I'll download it and skip a couple rounds with the lads friday night."

I think publishing content online is a wonderful idea, and I'm actually really happy that Wizards is pursuing this method of distribution.

[horseboy]

I've been running games off of lap tops for the last two years or so. Great, you pull up a spread sheet for damage, pew, pew, pew, Bookmarks on PDFs are so nice.

[ray53208]

maybe im old fashioned, but i really hate reading books off of a computer screen. i love the printed page and honestly feel that even if it could be replaced that it should not be. i know im not alone in this.

i know tht pdfs are supposedly the wave of the future (and i have more than a few myself), but i have a buddy at a print shop make hard copies for me. i cannot abide laptops at the gaming table. i have a friend who does that and while it doesnt necessarily get in the way, it is annoying.

remember when gaming was done without computers? i mean the most you had was a calculator and a cassette player. you could play without the need to be near an outlet or in a good wifi area. perhaps its just nostalgia, and i fully accept the label of gamer-luddite.

my concern with the 4th edition is that the dollar came before the fan and that the new way of doing things will create an economic stratification of fans. times are hard for a lot of folks, sometimes the only bit of good times they get in a craptastic work week is around the old gaming table. for those of us the ideal game is NOT one that requires more of a cash investment to fully empliment.

[Green Bean]

maybe im old fashioned, but i really hate reading books off of a computer screen. i love the printed page and honestly feel that even if it could be replaced that it should not be. i know im not alone in this.

i know tht pdfs are supposedly the wave of the future (and i have more than a few myself), but i have a buddy at a print shop make hard copies for me. i cannot abide laptops at the gaming table. i have a friend who does that and while it doesnt necessarily get in the way, it is annoying.

remember when gaming was done without computers? i mean the most you had was a calculator and a cassette player. you could play without the need to be near an outlet or in a good wifi area. perhaps its just nostalgia, and i fully accept the label of gamer-luddite.

my concern with the 4th edition is that the dollar came before the fan and that the new way of doing things will create an economic stratification of fans. times are hard for a lot of folks, sometimes the only bit of good times they get in a craptastic work week is around the old gaming table. for those of us the ideal game is NOT one that requires more of a cash investment to fully empliment.

Well, the thing is, they're still going to publish the books. Downloading .pdf files of the rules will be cheaper, yes, but the books will still be available. You can still have an entirely dead tree-based session, and I seriously doubt the whole idea of five friends ordering pizza and having a game of DnD is going to die. The reason they're emphasizing their new computer stuff is it's new, and they want to show that off.

Besides, it doesn't seem like Internet connections are going to be required, at least any more than they are now. You can download updated electronic rule sets, but when you get down to it, that's just a fancier way of releasing errata. You can play online with that new service, but nothing is stopping you from doing it in person. Really, the service is there so people who don't have other players near them can still play. How many times have you heard some variation of "I have this great campaign idea, but there's no players where I am" or "I came up with this awesome character, but I can't find a DM who'll let me play him"?

The operative word of all of these new electronic upgrades seems to be 'can'. You can play on line with a bunch of strangers, and you can purchase your books as .pdfs.

[Were-Sandwich]

I must say after watching the presentation video, the online game table looks pretty awesome. It keeps track of all the light sources and stuff, and allows the DM to move stuff about in secret, which is always a lot of work in RL.

[Abardam]

Old logo > new logo in my opinion.

[ray53208]

i understand that they will still publish books, but dungeon and dragon magazines are a thing of the past. i do not believe the hobby is better for that. just because they can go online doesnt mean they should.

i understand the gamer tradition of getting around the table and having some fun wont be dying out any time soon. i didnt think that internet connections are required to play, but instead to get full functionality of the new edition. the additional cost of ten dollars a month for what used to be free (errata and updates) or available in a tangible, "dead tree", magazine form (dungeon and dragon magazines) you could read anywhere. i know this sounds wierd but: ten dollars a month is a reasonable price, right up until its not.

also, i found that "funny" teaser trailer video to be insulting and pedantic. i fully accept that i might lack a sense of humor and could be taking things too seriously. it had that "my-poop-doesnt-stink", smarmy, sarcastic feel that usually gets a person smacked.

and the idea of "streamlining", "speeding up" game play, ect, just sounds like dumbing it down to me. they might be moving away from role playing and closer to a board game.

the only thing i like (suprised that i liked something?) was the idea of being able to play with friends online. i have friends scattered across the country and we have been wondering if it were possible to play online around a virtual table. well, what we found out is that it is; but not cheaply, not everyones computer can do it, and not every rules set is compatable. face-to-face gaming is my preferred choice, but since we cant afford plane tickets every month... i still have my local group.

[Asaris]

This is what went out on the Living Greyhawk email list, for those curious about living campaigns:

Year of Change: The RPGA in 2008

As most of you reading this know, Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition was
announced at Gen Con Indy on this past Thursday evening. This means
great things for the game, and with that, big changes for the RPGA
and its programs. Ever since "The Announcement" , one of the hot
topics both at the convention and online has been "What does this
mean for the future?"

At our members' meeting this evening, Ian and I talked to the
assembled players, judges, and staff about the RPGA's future. Even
though many of you can't be with us, we felt it necessary to send out
the "official word" to you as soon as the meeting was concluded, so
you could have all the information in one place. Here we go!

Campaigns Concluding
Living Greyhawk has been the face of organized play for the 3rd
Edition D&D game. Tremendously successful, thousands participate
worldwide in the biggest shared-world D&D game anywhere. LG has been
around since the beginning of 3rd Edition, and it will last to the
end of the 3rd Edition product line. Starting with a two-round
special at D&D Experience 2008 (February 28 – March 2), the campaign
will begin its final story arc – a series of core adventures that
will build into the climactic two-round finale at Origins 2008. We're
pulling out all the stops in these final adventures – no major NPC is
off-limits, and you're really going to be a part of the most world-
affecting story arc we've ever done. We're getting some of the best
authors to ever write for Living Greyhawk to help with these
adventures – what the Circle has planned is nothing short of amazing.
While the campaign concludes at Origins next year, it is our
sincerest desire to provide you an epic conclusion to the campaign we
all love so much.

I know you want more specifics, now that the cat's out of the bag.
Regions will have up to 6 adventures next year – all of them will
premiere no later than June 30, 2008. Metaregions will have 4
adventures next year, with the same premiere deadline. All adventures
released in 2007 and 2008 will be playable until December 31, 2008.
We're also looking at increasing play opportunities for your
characters in 2008 so they have a better chance of reaching the goals
you've set for them. The two specials next year – the first and last
adventures in the final core story arc – will be available for all
conventions soon after they premiere at their respective shows. Many
more players will be able to enjoy all of the final adventures for
Living Greyhawk, as the specials come to their local shows.

More information on Living Greyhawk's conclusion will become
available in the next few weeks on the website.

Xen'drik Expeditions will also be concluding at Origins 2008. As the
D&D Campaigns programs use 2-year story arcs, the campaign pulls into
its last stop right on time. The Factionmasters have prepared a great
final story arc that really engages all of the factions into a final
two-round spectacular at Origins next year. Stormreach will never be
the same after it's over.

We also bid a fond farewell to Living Kingdoms of Kalamar in 2008. At
D&D Experience next year, LK will run its special finale adventures.
All other adventures will be playable through the RPGA until March
31, 2008.

So, with the existing campaigns ending, what will rise up to take
their place? Read on!

Campaigns Beginning
At D&D Experience 2008, you'll be able to get your first full-on play
of D&D 4th Edition in its final form. This will come in the form of
preview adventures for the next Living campaign – Living Forgotten
Realms! The most popular campaign setting for D&D finally gets its
turn as a regionalized Living campaign. If you like the system for
Living Greyhawk, you'll love what we have in store with Living
Forgotten Realms: more play opportunities for the average gamer,
fully supported online and offline play, and a greater shared-world
experience than we've ever done before with a Living campaign. Living
Forgotten Realms will be the first truly global Living campaign.

But we can't do it without your help! We're placing a call out for
administrators to help us on both a global and regional level.
Information on how you can help will be available in September on the
RPGA website. Global and regional administrators will get previews of
4th Edition material as they work to provide the most immersive game
experience you'll ever find in an organized play campaign.

D&D Experience 2008 is the place to be for exciting previews of the
new Living campaign; the campaign fully launches at Gen Con Indy 2008.

With Xen'drik Expeditions ending, a new D&D Campaigns program will
take its place. As it is scheduled to begin in late summer/fall 2008,
we can't yet announce what it will be, but it will improve upon the
success of Xen'drik. (Of course, we'll be looking for help with that
as well – once again, check on the website in a few weeks for more
info.)

More to Come!
As 2007 rolls on, we'll have a lot more to talk about regarding our
current programs, the upcoming programs mentioned above, and other
exciting new programs coming out in 2008 and beyond. There's still a
lot more information we want to get out to you, but we have to save
some of our goodies for a little later!

Thanks to everyone involved in the RPGA for making our organization
the success it is today. Stay with us, as it's going to get even
better.

Game On!

Ian Richards
Chris Tulach

[Aasimar]

Check out StarWars Saga edition. It's very very likely that it's being used as a test-bed for d&d 4th edition.

[ray53208]

Check out StarWars Saga edition. It's very very likely that it's being used as a test-bed for d&d 4th edition.

that would explain the need for errata and clarification that is rampant in the saga edition. instead of playtesting for free, why not make people pay 40 bucks and get all that precious info to boot in the deal?

[Leather_Book_Wizard]

4th edition? Horror of horrors! I haven't even bought all the books I need for 3.5 yet! It's not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eldpollard]

They say it's evolutionary not revolutionary. This makes me feel like it'll be 3.75 or something.

[Matthew]

2e to 3e was arguably evolutionary... in short, I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that particular statement.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I like what I've seen so far. A lot of what they're talking about for 4th Edition is stuff I normally house-rule in for 3rd Edition, or is similar to splat books I enjoy using. If they can just refine it all and make it work without me needing to make it all up on the fly, I'll be satisfied. I'm especially intruiged by the idea of different melee attacks for different weapons, all based on different stats. It's sort of like a more core-friendly interpretation of ToB.

[Aasimar]

that would explain the need for errata and clarification that is rampant in the saga edition. instead of playtesting for free, why not make people pay 40 bucks and get all that precious info to boot in the deal?

Well, yeah.

[Doc_Outlands]

But will it still be OGL-friendly or will it be proprietary mechanics?

[Doc_Outlands]

AND it seems they've obliterated all the 3.5 archived stuff from the website? That or I'm just blind and/or dense...

[Leto]

AND it seems they've obliterated all the 3.5 archived stuff from the website? That or I'm just blind and/or dense...

You're just blind. It's been archived.

[Doc_Outlands]

You're just blind. It's been archived.

Ah, ok. My fury has been (slightly) dampened.

Sooo - where's the archive?

[ray53208]

4th edition? Horror of horrors! I haven't even bought all the books I need for 3.5 yet! It's not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah, another things that chaps my hide is how they keep saying that things wont change in peoples campaigns in the near future and that there are still 3.5 products coming out... and that folks should buy them.

why? if the new star wars saga edition is an indicator at the changes to be made the game will be significantly different enough as to make the older books obsolete. oh, except for "flavor text". yeah... that was worth my 30 bucks a pop.

[Overlord]

What's striking to me about this discussion is that while I've seen multiple people , such as ray53208, who have taken a very anti-4th Edition stance, I've yet to see someone adopt a pro-4th Edition stance with equal intensity.

I've seen plenty of people ready to rant about the evils of 4th Edition, and many who give well-constructed criticisms of the flaws in the 4th Edition announcement. I've seen nobody ranting about how "4th Edition ROXXORS!!!" I've seen nobody giving a long, detailed, rational argument supporting Wizards' decision and praising the new edition.

The most I've seen from the pro-Wizards crowd is "What do you expect! Wizards is a company, and they need to make money!" Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of ranting. But when people start launching tirades, you can get a feel for how the...more reactionary consumers feel about this. Not necessarily the lowest common denominator, but definitely the vocal minority. There just doesn't seem to be any of that on the pro-Wizards side.

Now many of you, my fellow posters, have given rational arguments deflecting some of the criticism aimed toward Wizards. But all of your arguments seem to stem from a feeling of "Hey, now, let's be reasonable about this and give Wizards a chance," as opposed to "4th Edition really is going to be great!" And I think it's a noble goal, trying to make sure people keep an open mind about this. I'm sure trying to. But most of you, as well as the majority of the D&D community (myself included) have a mindset about this that can best be summed up as:

"Meh."

I'm definitely going to give Wizards a fair shot at this. But the fact is, sadly, my faith in the company has reached a new low.

[Zincorium]

Me, I'm excited for the possibility that it could be good. I'm eagerly looking forward to finding out.


The reason there's no "4th Edition is teh bomb!" speaches is simple:


We have no idea what it's going to be like.


Very difficult to have an opinion on something that was brought out as a surprise, has no solid info available, and is very important to the gaming community as a whole. Even though 3.5 and previous will still be around, for most intents and purposes 4th ed will be D&D.

[Skjaldbakka]

But most of you, as well as the majority of the D&D community (myself included) have a mindset about this that can best be summed up as:

"Meh."

My response:

Meh.

[horseboy]

The reason there's no "4th Edition is teh bomb!" speaches is simple:

We have no idea what it's going to be like.

Very difficult to have an opinion on something that was brought out as a surprise, has no solid info available, and is very important to the gaming community as a whole. Even though 3.5 and previous will still be around, for most intents and purposes 4th ed will be D&D.

Quoted for truth. Personally I'm completely ambivalent. The only reason I even played D&D was for Living Greyhawk, and with it gone, this is nothing more than a purely intellectual exercise.

[ray53208]

What's striking to me about this discussion is that while I've seen multiple people , such as ray53208, who have taken a very anti-4th Edition stance, I've yet to see someone adopt a pro-4th Edition stance with equal intensity.

I've seen plenty of people ready to rant about the evils of 4th Edition, and many who give well-constructed criticisms of the flaws in the 4th Edition announcement. I've seen nobody ranting about how "4th Edition ROXXORS!!!" I've seen nobody giving a long, detailed, rational argument supporting Wizards' decision and praising the new edition.

The most I've seen from the pro-Wizards crowd is "What do you expect! Wizards is a company, and they need to make money!" Now, don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of ranting. But when people start launching tirades, you can get a feel for how the...more reactionary consumers feel about this. Not necessarily the lowest common denominator, but definitely the vocal minority. There just doesn't seem to be any of that on the pro-Wizards side.

Now many of you, my fellow posters, have given rational arguments deflecting some of the criticism aimed toward Wizards. But all of your arguments seem to stem from a feeling of "Hey, now, let's be reasonable about this and give Wizards a chance," as opposed to "4th Edition really is going to be great!" And I think it's a noble goal, trying to make sure people keep an open mind about this. I'm sure trying to. But most of you, as well as the majority of the D&D community (myself included) have a mindset about this that can best be summed up as:

"Meh."

I'm definitely going to give Wizards a fair shot at this. But the fact is, sadly, my faith in the company has reached a new low.

you know, ive been gaming for about 23 years. d&d was my first game. i loved it and through all its incarnations i held out against nay-sayers and critics. i think that i have given the game makers a fair shot. in the past ten years, specifically, i have gone along with all the changes and modifications with the feeling that it was to make the game better. i suppose i really believed it was for the love of the game.

this is the first time i feel it isnt about love of the game, or the fans. i wish i could remain as dispassionate as some folks are. i wish i could purchase this new edition and feel as if it was a necessary change and done because the company cares.

i can not accept the reasoning that the capitalistic paradigm of corporate america is just cause enough to make these changes. i realise this is the way it is, doesnt mean i think its the right thing to do.

i suppose the addage holds true that there is no hatred like that reserved for those whom you onced loved. betrayal is an ugly feeling and a powerful force to reckon with.

[Thinker]

you know, ive been gaming for about 23 years. d&d was my first game. i loved it and through all its incarnations i held out against nay-sayers and critics. i think that i have given the game makers a fair shot. in the past ten years, specifically, i have gone along with all the changes and modifications with the feeling that it was to make the game better. i suppose i really believed it was for the love of the game.

this is the first time i feel it isnt about love of the game, or the fans. i wish i could remain as dispassionate as some folks are. i wish i could purchase this new edition and feel as if it was a necessary change and done because the company cares.

i can not accept the reasoning that the capitalistic paradigm of corporate america is just cause enough to make these changes. i realise this is the way it is, doesnt mean i think its the right thing to do.

i suppose the addage holds true that there is no hatred like that reserved for those whom you onced loved. betrayal is an ugly feeling and a powerful force to reckon with.

A new edition is necessary. They have run out of material to provide new experiences for 3.5e. They have also come to realize their mistakes with that edition. To make a more balanced game they needed a new edition and this is it. Don't complain about it until you have seen it, just as I withhold my praise until I have seen it.

[Jack Mann]

Like Zinc said. It's hard to get really behind an unknown. Until we've seen 4th edition, we can't very well start cheering. We have to know what it's really going to be like. I mean, what do you expect us to say? "I don't know what it is, but I like it!" We're not going to get too gung-ho about it until we've seen the system and tried a game or two. At that point, you'll start to see 4e zealots making with the "4th edition is the bomb diggity roxxors my soxxors l33t 1f i wr1+3 l1k3 +h15, /\/\4yb3 50/\/\30n3 \/\/1ll l0v3 /\/\3." If it's good, you'll also see some more rational defenders.

That said, the changes they've presented so far are mostly things I agree with. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new edition.

[TheOOB]

I am very excited about what 4e has the potential to be. Many of the things they have mentioned sound quite fun, and considering WotCs track record, I'm quite optimistic about 4e.

I'm not ready to say it's the best thing ever, but I see no downside. If the game is good, it will be fun, if not I won't give WotC my money.

[Overlord]

Like Zinc said. It's hard to get really behind an unknown. Until we've seen 4th edition, we can't very well start cheering. We have to know what it's really going to be like. I mean, what do you expect us to say? "I don't know what it is, but I like it!" We're not going to get too gung-ho about it until we've seen the system and tried a game or two. At that point, you'll start to see 4e zealots making with the "4th edition is the bomb diggity roxxors my soxxors l33t 1f i wr1+3 l1k3 +h15, /\/\4yb3 50/\/\30n3 \/\/1ll l0v3 /\/\3." If it's good, you'll also see some more rational defenders.

That said, the changes they've presented so far are mostly things I agree with. I'm cautiously optimistic about the new edition.

The thing is, you and Zinc are speaking from the perspective of logical, reasonable people.

My point was, in summary, simply this: Wizards of the Coast has very few fanboys (or girls, or whatever the accepted term is).

It doesn't take much for people to blindly rally behind something. The fact that I haven't seen very many crazed fans going nuts for 4th Edition leads me to believe that either A: D&D gamers are almost all calm, rational fellows, or B: something is off with Wizards' levels of fan support, compared with what they had in previous years.

But it's probably just me. I'm sure that if either of those two notions are accurate, it's A. But again, that's just my gut reaction.

[Jack Mann]

Because of the breadth of Wizards' catalog, it's hard to find a fanboy specifically for the company, since few people are going to be interested in all aspects of the company. People are more likely to align themselves with specific brands rather than the company as a whole. So, you can find Magic: the Gathering fanboys (just go to my local gaming store on Saturday night), D&D 3.5 fanboys (who are now up in arms), and fanboys for other products from Wizards of the Coast. However, 4.5 is so new that you're unlikely to find any fanboys for it yet, for the reasons mentioned.

In other words, you don't see Wizards of the Coast fanboys for the same reason you don't see many Hasbro fanboys.