Build Advice for Party Member

[mpollack]

I have a fellow party member in a career game, who has now died once a level, and I was wondering if I could get some build or play advice for him going forward.

Game = core pathfinder + all beastiaries with some substantial house rules (including some house classes). Aside from hero points, nothing from APG or other sources. Currently at L9, its a career all-halfling game. 25 pt buy. (As part of the house rules, we can spend some money to buy extra feats (max 3 at L9, 5 at L20 from a short list or +1/2 to any skill up to cha level.)

Spoiler

Show

Build: L9 Halfling Druid, HP 76 (roll for HP, reroll 1s, 1 HP for favored class), AC 16, air domain
stats: 12/14/12/16/18/14 (+2 to str, int from equipment, +1 to wis, cha at lvl)
skills: acro 1, climb 1, craft alchemy 2, diplo 5, fly 3, handle 3, heal 2, know arcane 2, know engineer 2, know geog 1, history 2, local 3, nature 5, religion 1, linguistics 5, perception 7, perform dance 1, oratory 2, profession artist 1, ride 2, sense motive 1, spell 2, survival 3, swim 2.
purchased skills: +2 to diplo, history, local, linguistics, +1 to swim
feats: Alertness, Persuasive, Flyby Attack, Natural Spell, don't know L9, purchased: Run, Toughness, Fleet
equipment: leather armor, belt of str +2, headband of int +2 (skill know geog), pearl of power, amulet natural armor +1, ring protect +1, druids vestment, eyes eagle, silent rod, dagger, sickle, sling, number of alchemical items, number of adventuring gear items from equipment list

Spoiler

Show

General strategies:
He likes to scout ahead as an animal or elemental (air or earth preferred), figuring he can escape perhaps through the walls as needed. (Don't bother not to tell him to scout - he insists on doing so despite a lot of fighting.
favored attacks: call lightning, flame burst, spike stones, changing to air elemental to use special attacks like whirlwind

[Savaroth]

If he wants to sneak around, then make him a Rogue. Otherwise, if he just takes a bunch of damage, make him into a tank build,

[arkangel111]

Any idea why he has run and fleet? Wildshape gives him movement...
What is he doing usually when he dies?

[ATHATH]

If he wants to sneak around, then make him a Rogue. Otherwise, if he just takes a bunch of damage, make him into a tank build,

You don't have to be a Rogue in order to be able to sneak around well, you know.

In fact, I'd consider stealth-focused Druids to be better than Rogues at sneaking, since Druids can make themselves appear to be harmless, unimportant animals.

[Geddy2112]

It sounds like he is getting himself killed by poor playing, by scouting ahead alone, getting into trouble, and getting killed before help can arrive. That said, druids can do this really well. Turn into random common animal of the area(small, preferably something that flies) and just be the unassuming crow in a tree raining lightning from the sky. Be an earth elemental with tremorsense and lightning strike people from underground.

Looking at his build, it is pretty suboptimal. As a level 9 druid(with a druid's vestment) there is zero reason to have ranks in climb or swim-he can simply wild shape into anything that flies, climbs, or swims. Likewise, I get some ranks here and there for fluff, but those are a lot of wasted skill ranks. He might want to focus on a few key skills and leave the rest to other party members. The really big one that stands out is all those ranks in other skills, but zero ranks in stealth and yet he wants to scout...

Alertness and persuasive are basically never worth it, unless you get it as a bonus or need it for a prerequisite. Likewise, as said above he needs neither run nor fleet as wild shape gives awesome movement speeds and options with increased base speed. As an air or earth elemental, he can easily fly ahead or burrow totally undetected. Toughness is probably not needed, although I see why he took it if he keeps dying...but there are far better options.

Since he casts and seems to be focused more on casting than combat, maybe spell focus(evocation) or some similar feats would serve him better? Almost anything is better than the minor skill bump feats. Or save the gold spent on feats(not sure how much these cost) for metamagic rods, other support items, etc.

[mpollack]

Spoiler

Show

Death 1 (L7)

(The overall career plot, briefly, is that the halflings have managed to settle a fertile, unoccupied area and use magic to keep out invaders. But as attacks have begun to increase and start to penetrate the country's defenses, the country started to form, among other things, a small elite force (us PCs) to go out into the world as needed.)

We've been tracking a necromancer that kidnapped some of our top casters, and find him in a non-descript house in the middle of the town, having bought protection from them. We talk our way in to the main room, search the house, and eventually discover a locked door to the main dungeon, surrounded by some statues that turn out to be constructs. (The other statues fortunately turn out to hold adamantine weapons.)

As we turn to fight the activated constructs (two wolves and a rust monster, all stuffed), the druid currently in bat form and gaseous form decides to scout ahead through the locked door's keyhole into the dungeon (where the final fight of the level is set). He is immediately struck by something he can't identify (it's still dark) and takes damage despite gaseous form.

He chooses to move left and try to hug the walls and gets attacked by what he now realizes is the necromancer and two large constructs, all three of whom start wailing on him. He dismisses the gaseous form (but the DM rules he has to remain a bat - dismissing both requires two standard actions) and tries diplomacy (we only came to talk), so the necromancer lets him speak, though he's limited in his form (because he took the "don't move" order literally, he doesn't take the opportunity to change to a halfling and try real non-charades diplomacy). Finally, low on health, he shifts into an earth elemental (and expends a hero point for CLW) and tries to dive into the stone floor, but the AoO kills him.

By this time, we are finally winding down the battle and my monk/rogue can finally unlock the door - one round too late. We beat the constructs and the DM lets us raise Murphy without level loss, but the necromancer escapes during the process.

Spoiler

Show

Death 2 (L8)

Two giant tribes have decided to come together to raise an army against our country (mediated by the above necromancer) so out again we go. With some stealth and bribery (the goblins are basically their slaves so we can use them - and of course we free them when they are done - for non-combat purposes), we manage to enter the cave of the first giant leader and put him down. So we rest, spread some rumors, and then head to the cave of the other giant leader, to find that he's waiting for us and has the cave on lockdown.

Once again, we walk into a battle and once again, our Druid, in earth elemental form and invisible from another caster, begins to attempt scouting ahead. This time a fight arises within the party as the druid insists scouting is the best thing he can do since he isn't a tank (no but he has some spells he can use) and that we can always use a heads up (yes, but there is a time and a place. And while a druid can make a good scout, so does most of the team. Halflings, you know.) Anyway, the druid comes back, we finish the battle and free the goblin prisoners, and we start moving down the long hallway to the level's final battle. (The long hallway is dark but not trapped or filled with any creatures and the sliding door doesn't lock us in. It's not until the final battle is over that we realize it's supposed to be for our benefit - we could use it as a choke point against the giants.) Our druid summoned a creature for the prior battle, and he sends a second summons down the hallway - and has to dismiss it when it attacks us (there's a caster at the other end).

Anyway, we finally make it through the hallway into the room. There's the stone giant, three ogre fighters and an ogre mage around the table, and the team rushes in with some attacks, unaware that they are buffed to the hilt. (I'm not entirely sure of their build but at minimum they are hasted and have protection from good). The druid (still earth elemental) casts a sleet storm at the giant and rushes off to the side but the stone giant chases him.

Next round, the druid retreats into the floor. The other rogue and I surround the ogre mage and we do so much damage that he teleports out (and is gone for the rest of the fight). (Unfortunately, this gives the stone giant a full round action on me, and he gets in a crit. Down goes my character for the rest of the fight.) The druid moves away from the fight towards the side of the room, casts flame strike and then a second hero point to cast spike stones, and discovers there's a fire giant waiting in the wings on his side (and an ice giant waiting in the wings on the other side). (At this point, the ogre fighters are dead or held and the stone giant is reeling but still.)

In all fairness, half the 6 man team went down on that one.

Spoiler

Show

Battle L9

We're still in the middle of the battle, and he isn't down yet. (We kind of had to stop in the middle of the battle, when it looked like our druid was going down. But he has air domain so the final lightning bolt only took him down to single digits. It doesn't look good, however.) I don't know if this is the final battle of our level but it has the hallmarks in hindsight. I should note that I am now running the team... its one of the homebrew classes that we call a witch but its basically an arcane version of the negative cleric, with a little more emphasis on the necro and healing. No more monk/rogue for this guy.

So we are in an abandoned building talking with some halflings that were duped into spreading some form of fungus (still don't know what it is) and holed themselves up on the second floor. As we help them out the window, we hear noises from the basement and... most of us come out to see that the front door and basement door are open. Our druid is still focusing upon the fungus, but since nobody has the nature checks and it isn't pinging to things like detect magic, detect poison, craft alchemy, etc., we are ready to just move on come what may. He wants us to do a range of attacks of various elements so we finally oblige. (The result, pretty much any attack hurts it at the struck area but no attack spreads to other areas.)

So we get to the area downstairs, and four zombies come from the front door. Every time one of them hits or explodes on us, we need to make a DC 15 fort save but just smiles if we say we failed. Our Druid casts a lightning arc, I command one of the zombies, the rest of the team engages (no buffs except a different character polymorphs) and we are off.

Another four zombies enter the fray from the living room as we begin to handle the first group and the druid needs to make three fort saves, failing one. (Two zombies are fighting him, and I think one winds up criting.) Low on hit points, he wildshapes into an air elemental, we beat back some of the zombies, and the third wave comes in - a Mohrg that mostly focuses on me. I try to heal him, and discover my cure spells don't work (at least on him).

He uses a whirlwind attack to try finishing off the zombies and damage the Mohrg, to little effect (in fact, he winds up by DM ruling only picking up the zombie I was controlling). With two zombies and the slightly damaged Mohrg left, a mummy enters (paralysis to self and one other PC). Druid casts flame strike. And that's when our necromancer comes in and fires off a lightning bolt at him.

Anyway, he's still up but he's told me that his next move is a wall of fire. It's not clear if anything can save him at this point.

Now that I have written these out.... Our druid's build or playstyle might not be the problem....

I don't know why he took the feats that he did, except that for purchased feats, you don't get anywhere close to the top list. He may be attempting to fit into a particular Prestige Class, I will ask. The lack of sneak also kind of stands out, as does the investment in linguistics and knowledge. He's kind of the team face, but still.

[AnimeTheCat]

Now that I have written these out.... Our druid's build or playstyle might not be the problem....

I don't know why he took the feats that he did, except that for purchased feats, you don't get anywhere close to the top list. He may be attempting to fit into a particular Prestige Class, I will ask. The lack of sneak also kind of stands out, as does the investment in linguistics and knowledge. He's kind of the team face, but still.

Hmm... So, I know that the player has said "I'm not a tank" but has said player tried spells that control the enemy instead of damaging it? That could help immensely and it would give him/her a unique purpose in fights with the added benefit of possibly preventing BBEGs from running away (I'm not familiar with PF, but I'm sure druids still have entangle). Maybe he should be less focused on "Kill, kill, kill" and more focused on "Disable, halt, charm, confuse, grapple, debuff, buff..." That may help not only him survive but also the whole party.

[mpollack]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll talk it over with him, and come back with some feedback.

[Eldariel]

Definitely invest in Stealth if he likes to sneak. As a Druid he can easily afford full points in both, stealth and perception. In PF taking nonclass skills hardly carries penalty. For his style), even Acrobatics might be warranted. If he's doing spell damage, Spell Penetration and Greater are kinda musts: all bigger things down the line have SR. Craft Magic A&A and Wondrous Items are also good feats. Quicken Spell begins to come to its own too - Quickened Entangle is nice.

That said, his deaths sound mostly like silliness. All avoidable through better choices. Good build can't do anything alone. Thus, while his skill, feat and item (Wild Armor and Shield are nice) allocation could be better, most of the onus lies on him.

[EldritchWeaver]

Employ Hellcat Stealth to allow him to stealth even observed and without cover. If you allow 3PP, Lurker in Darkness forces rolling Perception on senses which otherwise always notice. If you don't like that feat, there is weaker Paizo one, but the name eludes me.

[Elkad]

Scouting during a fight...

I can understand moving to a position to cover the far door or something. But scouting on the far side of it? No. Not until the current fight is won, or at least on mop-up.
If you can't contribute meaningfully, then you throw rocks, or cheer your team (hey, it works for Bards), or just stand there next to the mage holding your spear in case someone tries to charge.

Win the fight you are in. Then worry about the next one.