The Arcane Programmer Guide ( Official Rules Technique )

[Aaron Underhand]

This is a really cool thought exercise. Even without going down this huge rabbit hole of advanced computing and holographic communication, I've gotten ideas for simple programming functions that are useful for everyday adventuring. I'd recommend any would-be wizard read through this if only to demonstrate what intelligent application of even modest spells can do.

For all the awesome advanced stuff, the only thing I'm having trouble figuring out is automated data storage and recovery (excuse me if I just missed it, there was a lot to take in). Arcane locks seem to be the best key, but those are, at best, binary states (locked or unlocked), meaning you'd need an absolutely massive array of them to store data of any sort. Several spring-loaded hinge traps containing water, hovering over a large observable "hard drive" that itself has hinge traps in every subsequent hole so that the data can be erased as desired, is my best thought. Can we do better?

For a very simple single memory cell you need three functions:

Write binary 1
Write binary 0
Read state

A straightforward memory cell itself is two Magic mouths, each has one the the instructions:

"if the last write signal you heard was a 1 and the read signal asks 'what state are you in' say 1"
"If the last write signal you heard was a 0 and the read signal asks 'what state are you in' say 0"

You can optimize this by just using one magic mouth to say 1 and assuming no answer to a query means a zero

[JoeJ]

You can optimize this by just using one magic mouth to say 1 and assuming no answer to a query means a zero

Which can be dangerous because sometimes no answer means that either the query or the answer was not received.

[Waterdeep Merch]

For a very simple single memory cell you need three functions:

Write binary 1
Write binary 0
Read state

A straightforward memory cell itself is two Magic mouths, each has one the the instructions:

"if the last write signal you heard was a 1 and the read signal asks 'what state are you in' say 1"
"If the last write signal you heard was a 0 and the read signal asks 'what state are you in' say 0"

You can optimize this by just using one magic mouth to say 1 and assuming no answer to a query means a zero

Can MM remember what it last did like that, though? I was under the impression that it couldn't, and could only perform tasks that it was already programmed to do at creation.

If it can, there's no problem at all- you don't even need binary, just use different frequencies/sounds for a more complex language, which would certainly have a brevity advantage over binary given that everything essentially runs at the speed by which anything can be conveyed and heard via sound.

Theoretically you could simply abuse the 10 minute timer to begin but not finish your communications until the end of it, then have a long circuit where the data travels by sound in a loop, with recall nodes monitoring the whole thing. I'd be wary of storing important information like that, though. It's essentially RAM.

[Aaron Underhand]

Which can be dangerous because sometimes no answer means that either the query or the answer was not received.

I agree there is some likely failure rate. Modern day ram is optimised to use single transistor designs, and forward error correction codes to make an error correcting memory of the desired reliability. Error correction circuits are probably a 5% over head after the 50% reduction from dropping from two transistors to one....

[dreast]

I refuse to consider any magic system that isn’t Turing complete!

[Tetrasodium]

Can MM remember what it last did like that, though? I was under the impression that it couldn't, and could only perform tasks that it was already programmed to do at creation.

If it can, there's no problem at all- you don't even need binary, just use different frequencies/sounds for a more complex language, which would certainly have a brevity advantage over binary given that everything essentially runs at the speed by which anything can be conveyed and heard via sound.

Theoretically you could simply abuse the 10 minute timer to begin but not finish your communications until the end of it, then have a long circuit where the data travels by sound in a loop, with recall nodes monitoring the whole thing. I'd be wary of storing important information like that, though. It's essentially RAM.

two of them & since we are talking about programming basically, do !IF (not if)
"unless you have heard zero since the last time you heard the word status and$write1Signal has also occurred since then respond to status by saying one"
vice versa for storing zero.


In all honesty though, Turing had huge resources & a team on top of working on a number of things like Gottfried Leibniz 1689 binary invention that was too much for the gears he was limited to. not only that, Turing was trying to crack the enigma cipher encryption. If you have not seen it before, The imitation game covers a lot of it kinda nicely

[tuesdayscoming]

This is an extremely exciting project. Thanks to you and the other contributors for bringing Magic Mouth's potential to my attention and for all the wonderful thought that your observations have generated so far.

Regarding the immobility of Programmed Illusions, Demiplane seems like extreme overkill for gaining access to your workstation. It strikes me that building your Programmed Illusion console inside a portable hole might allow you access to a "stationary" work space most anywhere you'd like to go. Granted, the hole has limited space; considering Mouth's lack of restrictions on item size, however, we should be able to fit quite a bit of tech inside a single hole.

Unless, of course, this would impede some function of the system that I've overlooked? Granted, depending on where you open the hole, the devices inside may not be within 30' of truly stationary (not in portable hole) containers. Still, we could probably create some fascinating devices contained entirely within the hole.

Perhaps the hole doesn't work the way I think it does. If it does, though, I think there's some neat potential in the idea.

[Aaron Underhand]

two of them & since we are talking about programming basically, do !IF (not if)
"unless you have heard zero since the last time you heard the word status and$write1Signal has also occurred since then respond to status by saying one"
vice versa for storing zero.


In all honesty though, Turing had huge resources & a team on top of working on a number of things like Gottfried Leibniz 1689 binary invention that was too much for the gears he was limited to. not only that, Turing was trying to crack the enigma cipher encryption. If you have not seen it before, The imitation game covers a lot of it kinda nicely

Turing's paper of 1936 "On Computable Numbers, with an Application to the Entscheidungsproblem" is the definition of a "Turing machine". It predates electronic computers and the code cracking in the second world war, and is a work of genius much like Ada Lovelace's conception of programs for the Analytical Engine.

Both of these, I submit, are examples of how a sufficiently creative mage with access to magic mouth could plausibly research and build the "machines" we are discussing

Edited to add: The paper is available online, and the definition of a computable machine is reasonably accessible. The biography "Alan Turing: The Enigma of Intelligence" contains much more detail than the film. I was also lucky enough to catch Derek Jacobi performing on stage as Turing in "Breaking the Code" in the 1980s - a play which contains a soliloquy on the beauty of mathematics, and the particular insight Turing had.

[Beechgnome]

Posts this long are usually a case of diminishing returns after the first few graphs. This was totally worth it.

I wouldn't disallow it per se, but I don't think I'm going to let players in on it. I think a neat story hook would be to have an inventor develop this technology, have it stolen, and have the party try to both: get it back and figure out how it works.

[Waterdeep Merch]

two of them & since we are talking about programming basically, do !IF (not if)
"unless you have heard zero since the last time you heard the word status and$write1Signal has also occurred since then respond to status by saying one"
vice versa for storing zero.

Ah, of course! It's exactly how binary works, I'm not sure why I was skipping over it.

For communication lines, I'm kind of amused that you've got essentially two methods- one works off frequencies and sound, the other off of mouth movement and sight. So the frequencies would work best above ground so that you could use wires to transmit over a longer distance, being cheaper and easier to produce due to not needing as many node bunches. Meanwhile, the sight cords would require clear 'cords' and a light source, like continual flame, running throughout and would be best buried underground a bit- more expensive and fiddly by a long shot, but since it's built on sight it should move much faster.

So you either do telephone poles or fiber optics.

[Renduaz]

Ah, of course! It's exactly how binary works, I'm not sure why I was skipping over it.

For communication lines, I'm kind of amused that you've got essentially two methods- one works off frequencies and sound, the other off of mouth movement and sight. So the frequencies would work best above ground so that you could use wires to transmit over a longer distance, being cheaper and easier to produce due to not needing as many node bunches. Meanwhile, the sight cords would require clear 'cords' and a light source, like continual flame, running throughout and would be best buried underground a bit- more expensive and fiddly by a long shot, but since it's built on sight it should move much faster.

So you either do telephone poles or fiber optics.

Both work at the same speed. Magic Mouth doesn't actually "hear" or "see" anything, nor does it react to sound waves or light. That's not the spell's description. Magic Mouth is better conceived of as an omniscient deity in it's own 30 feet range. As soon as an audible or visual condition merely occurs within it's vicinity, it is instantaneously aware of it, per spell description. Neither sound waves nor light need to reach the enchanted object, it doesn't have any sound or sight receptors. It's an enchantment that immediately knows when its triggering circumstance has been fulfilled, wherever it may be in the radius..

[Waterdeep Merch]

Both work at the same speed. Magic Mouth doesn't actually "hear" or "see" anything, nor does it react to sound waves or light. That's not the spell's description. Magic Mouth is better conceived of as an omniscient deity in it's own 30 feet range. As soon as an audible or visual condition merely occurs within it's vicinity, it is instantaneously aware of it, per spell description. Neither sound waves nor light need to reach the enchanted object, it doesn't have any sound or sight receptors. It's an enchantment that immediately knows when its triggering circumstance has been fulfilled, wherever it may be in the radius..

That's kind of insane from an information processing perspective. It's quantum computation, capable of instantaneous calculation. Once in place, you could leapfrog our real world development. From medieval stasis to science fiction in a generation.

Now I'm wondering how a fantasy world would develop if someone figured out programming like this, especially if it bypassed the renaissance and industrial revolution. Theoretically this would take the place of the renaissance and kickstart it, with a much faster take, but what about industry? Perhaps the need for standardization would take hold relatively fast with the spread of rapid information gathering and computation, thus leading to higher intelligence in communities that would reliably discover industry on their own given enough time. The spread could be rocky- intelligent but belligerent forces like orcs, goblinoids, kobolds, dragons, drow, illithids, etc. would likely suffer at the hands of magical programming and communication once adventurers started sharing info. Would they attack these civilizations in force before the inevitable renaissance kicks in to high gear? Industrialization will almost certainly spell the end for them, so they'd have a relatively brief window of a few decades at best to destroy any society using magical programming.

And what about the multiverse, if we assume standard D&D planar connections to this world? I'd assume there'd be opponents and supporters, as well as abusers looking to take advantage of the new technologies. Devils could tilt the Blood War with this, since demons are unlikely to utilize it given the natural lawful bent of programming. Mechanus would be ecstatic, everyone in Limbo less so. The more it spreads, the more ordered societies become. The material planes start shifting towards lawful, hard, as the forces of law (civilizations) start overrunning and supplanting the forces of chaos.

If the Abyss gets 'defeated' by the Nine Hells and the lawful counterparts in the heavens edge out or even destroy their chaotic neighbors, what next? Does a resurgent Nine Hells turn on the rest of the planes, which are now missing several key players? Would there be a chaotic blowback? A change in the nature of magic via divine intervention to match what's happening in order to prevent this outcome?

Maybe this is the real, deep underlying truth- this has happened before, on some other world. And once the seers of the gods saw the apocalyptic potential of such technologies in a multiverse rigidly defined by delineation between law and chaos, they hunted down and destroyed these arcane technologies. Adventurers see these remains and assume that they are the remains of a once-great, technologically advanced civilization- unaware that said civilization practically popped up over night and was destroyed almost as fast. The simple magics and artifacts they find scattered throughout are what the gods left behind, as they were of no consequence. The truly dangerous parts, the march of science and progress, have been so thoroughly destroyed that not even a hint of what they truly were remains.

Or, you know. It's just fantasy in space. Whichever.

[Lawful Good]

This thread/idea is...one of the best things I have ever read on this forum. Well done thinking of this. My mind is blown

[Hecuba]

If so, would it be possible to build a Turing-complete computer in this way?

In principle, yes. A Turing complete, universal computer can be constructed from a single instruction set (though it's far from efficient). You can easily meet that here.

In practice, modern micro circuitry is very dependent on miniaturization and automated production for scale. Even the earliest 80386 chip had nearly 300k transistors, and that was just the processor. That will be hard to replicate if each instance of the spell would have to be laid down by a spellcaster.

[Aaron Underhand]

In principle, yes. A Turing complete, universal computer can be constructed from a single instruction set (though it's far from efficient). You can easily meet that here.

In practice, modern micro circuitry is very dependent on miniaturization and automated production for scale. Even the earliest 80386 chip had nearly 300k transistors, and that was just the processor. That will be hard to replicate if each instance of the spell would have to be laid down by a spellcaster.

Say any 3rd level mage with money and motivation could generate 50 magic mouth items a day, so 6 mages working flat out for 3 years, to get one CPU chip. Universe changing, but not universally available like PCs in the real world....

[Waterdeep Merch]

Say any 3rd level mage with money and motivation could generate 50 magic mouth items a day, so 6 mages working flat out for 3 years, to get one CPU chip. Universe changing, but not universally available like PCs in the real world....

It doesn't have to be a mage. Ritual casting is do-able without normal access to magic. It's not really qualified too much in core books or what you could consider our setting materials either (which is... SCAG? And that's it?). In Eberron in particular, it could be assumed that ritual casting is pretty rote thanks to the Dragonmarked houses and their use/need of it. And Faerun appears to have lesser casters all over if the spellcasting services in AL are supposed to be canonical, and I'm making something of an assumption that the world will have more lesser ritual casters than true casters given how much easier it is to access.


So if it takes 6 mages 3 years, what about a nobleman in either of these settings that pays for the services of 30 people with ritual casting? Or a mage's guild? Or even a thieves' guild that recognize how crazy strong something like this would be if they have it and their marks don't? What about a fiend that makes their warlocks develop the necessary parts for them as part of their bargain (which is an incredibly brilliant way for a devil to go about it- offer power for something as simple as using the included Tome of Shadows to cast Magic Mouth a few innocuous times for something they probably won't understand at all, and they'll think they got a steal)?

High level wizards can have their simulacrum do this, too. And liches won't care about taking centuries to build a powerful magic device, it's sort of their thing. If anything, I'd expect a handful of these machines to pop up within a year of the first person that demonstrates the knowledge necessary for programming. The only two published D&D settings I'd think this is unlikely in are Athas and possibly Krynn, depending. There just aren't enough casters running around to make it feasible, nor the resources (you'd need to mine MILLIONS of gp worth of jade. Also, lots of bee farming).

[Segev]

One note: I see nowhere in the spell that it says you cannot place more than one magic mouth (each with its own message and trigger) on the same object. No need for boxes full of rice or grains of sand; just cast the same spell over and over on the unit case, itself.

[Renduaz]

One note: I see nowhere in the spell that it says you cannot place more than one magic mouth (each with its own message and trigger) on the same object. No need for boxes full of rice or grains of sand; just cast the same spell over and over on the unit case, itself.

It's forbidden in the PHB itself, when cast on the same target:

"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. lnstead, the most potent effect-such as the highest bonus-from those castings applies while their durations overlap." - PHB Page 205

[Segev]

It's forbidden in the PHB itself, when cast on the same target:

"The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. lnstead, the most potent effect-such as the highest bonus-from those castings applies while their durations overlap." - PHB Page 205

This isn't "combining" or "stacking." This is two different effects.

But, it's not worth arguing strenuously, since the box of sand works just fine as something we can agree does work.

[ross]

Used the contraction it's where its was intended throughout the post, recommend proofreading

[smlsound]

One problem with this admittedly amazing and ridiculous use of such a mundane spell.

Your alphabet system is completely flawed in one (easily fixable) way. You made the triggers for each of the 26 "letters" of the alphabet, their spoken sounds. That's all well and good. But, letters don't make sounds consistently. Phonemes are what you're after and in American English, there are about 44 depending on your accent.

So, if you only programmed "A" to sound like the "a" in "amazing" it would only work for that phoneme of "uh" like "uh-m-ay-z-i-ng" In the example given, you wouldn't be able to say the hard "A" sound of "amAzing." Therefore, If you wanted to say "Atypical," or any other hard A sound, you couldn't. You'd have to program each sound that is made in a given language as an input. But, this doesn't break the system, just makes it take more time and be slightly more expensive every time.

Also, I know it was argued over, but "that the magic mouth can clearly see" must, in my view, mean that it is a necessary condition of the spell working and that "see" would not be included unless it was necessary and relevant to all set conditions possible by the spell. It's a bit like the basic speed law in California. "Never go faster than the present conditions allow" is literally the whole phrasing of the law. You could argue that "present conditions" allow me to go 120 MPH. But, there are other laws, such as the posted speed limit in a given area that ALSO apply.

So, yes, "Say 8 o'clock if a creature moves in this degree of vision" as an input means that, without fail, that magic mouth will say "8 o'clock" if it can "see" the creature. I agree with the spirit of your argument that what you can see is up for debate in other areas of RAW, but not in common language and not in the understanding of the term as it's used in the spell description. Would you be okay with a player saying "I can see that invisible bugbear?" simply because no one ever said he didn't have true sight? The magic mouth spell doesn't say that it does have truesight, it just says "though it must be based on visual or audible conditions." So, your argument that "visual = anything whether illusive/hidden/behind/magic'd" doesn't hold up to a basic understanding of both--and that's key--both visual and seeing which are both mentioned in the spell. "Seeing" is never defined as far as I can reckon, in the PHB. Other types of sight (meaning they grant you different ways to see) are described, but never seeing. That's because everyone knows what seeing means. It means you can see it. Therefore, if you're invisible, which literally means "unseeable" you can't be seen.

Not throwing shade, just appreciate a lively understanding of this stuff. You are a most creative individual and I appreciate the effort put into this epic use of the spell.

Also, I'm a sound engineer and I would argue sound is a very powerful tool and much less restricted because it is not blocked by physical objects, nor most enchantments. This is where I could get very technical in favor of the spirit of your arcane programming because Audible is 100% dependent on there being Sound Pressure Waves and completely independent of whether or not someone is there to hear the "sound," the definition of sound always includes psychoacoustics, or a transducer to be exact. So, ANY sound that could possibly reach the magic mouth is fair game (within range) since we're talking about Sound Pressure Waves, not "sound." Bonus nerding: if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, it absolutely does not make a sound. But it does make sound pressure waves.

[grend]

Some thoughts from the shower.

Other people have mentioned phonemes and the phonetic alphabet which is cool we all seem to have our own take on it.

I used to teach spelling to SEN children aged 11-12 using graphemes and how to pronounce words using phonemes so yeah, there's 44 give or take which system you use and they are integral to spoken language. Also ready mentioned by a couple of people alphabetic language would lose a lot of meaning, perhaps not cripplingly so but probably flawed enough that you would quickly need to rethink. More immediately the cost of your cabling has increased drastically meaning this kind of communication would be restricted to more wealthy characters/organisations.

But wait, there's more.

Other languages have sounds found outside the english phoneme system, creating sounds that it cannot reproduce, even accepting that some would be reusable - each distinct language (that did not com from a common root) would have to be programmed separately further increasing the cost and restricting the flexibility of each instance of relays. I'm glossing over this a little because I haven't done my research on how many other languages have drastically different phonemes in their spoke language but broadly speaking they don't translate well over continents. Also I want to say something clever about languages that are sung primarily, but I can't remember the details well enough.

However let's assume everyone speaks common - because the PH says so.

But wait, there's more.

I refuse to belive that everyone would speak common the same way. In the English language there are 160 dialects spoken around the world. In England alone there are 37 distinct dialects that speak in drastically different ways. For the uninitiated someone speaking the same language in a drastically different accent or dialect can be nigh unintelligible. I am from southern England, and when I was young I could barely understand people with a thick Scottish accent, or a number of other dialects I hadn't been exposed to much. When my wife first met my uncle she couldn't understand what he was saying, and he just has a deep voice and mumbles a lot. So for me this raises a lot of questions of the viability, expense, accuracy and accessibility this would have. I strongly suspect that a magic mouth programmed to respond to clearly spoken phonemes from the north would not accept clearly spoken phonemes from the south.

But wait there's more.

Probably.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea and this only is aimed at the alphabetic language idea (I hope the OP isn't feeling battered by the linguistic gnashing of teeth!) and have really got plans for magic mouth in the game I run, primarily as an early warning relay system in dungeons and well set up encounters. Another DM I know has used it to record the last words of a bard along with his effects and I remember our DM in our first games 20 years ago in Ad&d using it in a lot of inventive ways, its a cool and very underestimated spell.

[Savanik]

Have a look at my implementation.

AB
These are two pebbles enchanted with 'Magic Mouth' at 10gp each.

A. Every second, if a human is within 30', utter '1'.
B. Every second, if a human is not within 30', utter '0'.

Since Magic Mouth can only speak on a triggered circumstance, you need two of them to give binary data, and these conditions must be logically contradictory. That said, this pairing now functions as a simple yes/no detector, or a 'wire'. Using this principle, you can give any number of outputs, but two will be used going forward for simplicity.

Henceforth, 'wire logic' will be written as a unit.

ABC
These are three 'wires' enchanted with Magic Mouth. (60gp)

A. If a human is present, 1, otherwise 0.
B. If the king's symbol is present, 1, otherwise 0.
We now have two inputs.

C. This is your logic gate.
1. "If A or B have said '1' in the last second, say 1, otherwise 0. (OR gate)
2. "If A or B have said '1' in the last second, say 0, otherwise 1. (NOR gate)
2. "If A and B have said '1' in the last second, say 1, otherwise 0. (AND gate)
3. "If A and B have said '1' in the last second, say 0, otherwise 1. (NAND gate)

The NOR and NAND gate have the property of functional completeness. That is, any other logic function (AND, OR, etc.) can be implemented using only NAND gates. An entire processor can be created using NAND gates alone.

How about memory registers?

SR NOR Latch

SR

S. If a human is present or R is 1, return 0, otherwise return 1.
R. If you say 'reset' or S is 1, return 0, otherwise return 1.

Nominally, a human is not present. S returns 1. This means that R returns 0. While a human is not present and S is 0, S returns 1. This is the 'untriggered' state.

A human shows up. S now returns 0. R now returns 1. Since R is returning 1, even when the human leaves, S's input of R's '1' makes it return 0. R's inputs are now both 0's, and it's held high. This is the 'triggered' state.

You say 'reset'. R now returns 0. A human is not present, R is returning 0, and S now returns 1. We are back to the 'untriggered' state.


So now we have logic gates, and memory. But how do we reliably get output from the device that isn't just audible speaking? How do we get it to DO STUFF? Sure, Arcane lock is one option. I think it's the cheapest one. But ... don't some devices have a command word? How about a Decanter of Endless Water? It's only an Uncommon Magical Item, so it's not super expensive, either. And with three command words for various levels of water, you technically have four states it can be in, which is two bits of information.

[AbramTheMan]

Awesome uses, just a little nit-pick, but although there are 26 letters in the English alphabet, there are more than 26 sounds (I think 44?). ex: a -> lag, a -> lake, etc.
Also worth noting that it would probably not pick up on inflections with just these 44 sounds, so to use the earpiece to communicate would probably sound like Steven Hawking is talking to you which is awesome!

Anyway, I'm definitely going to use this for an NPC who is "watching" (sensing) the players go through his dungeon and talking back to them through a series of cables, taunting them and so forth (getting vibes of the Riddler from the Arkham games).

Thanks so much for this thread, it has given me many ideas when I was trying to work in a way for him to keep track of them (without scrying) and have a sort of intercom system.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: IF [Thread] = Necro; THEN [Close].