OOTS #1103 - The Discussion Thread

[zimmerwald1915]

Does Mind Blank protect against vampiric gaze? I'd assume it would but I don't know the rules.

Da Rules (excerpted):

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent's will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire's influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

In order to be foiled by mind blank, an ability must be 1) mind-affecting and 2) a spell or effect. Superntural abilities like a vampire's Dominate are effects, and Dominate specifically works like dominate person, a [mind-affecting] Enchantment.

If that wasn't clear enough, Vaarsuvius explicitly said she prepared it to ward against "vampiric domination gazes."

[Trillium]

It does. Mind Blank works against everything; it is the highest-level mental abjuration in the game, and is kind of overkill in many cases (fitting, considering it's V we're talking about).

Knowledge check success.

Da Rules (excerpted):

In order to be foiled by mind blank, an ability must be 1) mind-affecting and 2) a spell or effect. Superntural abilities like a vampire's Dominate are effects, and Dominate specifically works like dominate person, a [mind-affecting] Enchantment.

If that wasn't clear enough, Vaarsuvius explicitly said she prepared it to ward against "vampiric domination gazes."

Knowledge check CRITICAL SUCCESS.

[Toper]

For people asking about whether spells can be cast through the Forcecage:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...m#lineofEffect

A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

So in general the answer is that V is right, spells won't work. (But gaze attacks can pass through Wall of Force).

[Evil_Lamp_6]

So why does V has to end the Forcecage? Couldn't Elan use Greater Dispel Magic himself to get rid of it, freeing V to Fireball?

[zimmerwald1915]

So why does V has to end the Forcecage? Couldn't Elan use Greater Dispel Magic himself to get rid of it, freeing V to Fireball?

No, he can't.

Like a wall of force spell, a forcecage resists dispel magic, but it is vulnerable to a disintegrate spell, and it can be destroyed by a sphere of annihilation or a rod of cancellation.

The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage's disjunction spell.

[Fuzzypickles]

Is this time for another IFCC pull? Seems like the thematics would tie in nicely with last time:
"All that is required for Evil to triumph is for Neutral elves to do nothing"

In this case doing nothing is sitting in a forcecage for hours.

[Ganbatte]

Yes, the rules that you constantly complained about and constantly accused others of arguing in bad faith with you over haven't changed.

Which is funny of you to say, considering that the rules for this spell have never been explained.
But hey, I'm sure you're totally not arguing in bad faith here by pretending things that never actually happened, surely it's just me being wrong again!

(not funny, hilarious)

[Evil_Lamp_6]

No, he can't.

Funnily enough, this very same issue was discussed years ago on this very same forum.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'm gonna have to assume V doesn't have Delayed Blast Fireball? Or Contingency... Or a bunch of handy buffs...

[Keltest]

Is this time for another IFCC pull? Seems like the thematics would tie in nicely with last time:
"All that is required for Evil to triumph is for Neutral elves to do nothing"

In this case doing nothing is sitting in a forcecage for hours.

Given that they cant contain V for hours, that seems like a real waste.

[hroþila]

Given that they cant contain V for hours, that seems like a real waste.

They don't need to contain V for hours, only for as little as one round. V will be helpless after dismissing the forcecage, so in this scenario it'd be like
1- V dismisses the forcecage. The vampires will now swarm poor helpless V
2- The archfiends take V's soul and protect their body
3- The rest of the Order, now on their guards, destroys many a vampire and creates a perimeter around V's body
4- V's soul is returned in time to take their turn and blast some more vampires from comparative safety

I mean, theoretically. No idea how that fancy Initiative thing would affect this scenario.

[Fitzclowningham]

Knowing they were going in to face at least 5 vampires, I can't believe V doesn't have at least a couple slots devoted to Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil. Or would that be too easy?

[8BitNinja]

I think Roy just pulled an Elan

[danielxcutter]

Hmm, maybe Elan could ready an action to cast Mass Cure Light Wounds as soon as V drops the Forcecage. 1d8+(caster level) actually might not be too bad considering most of the vampires are probably thralls.

[Lheticus]

What the Order needs now is a cunning plan. Unfortunately, to come up with a cunning plan requires people who are actually cunning.

[Chei]

Knowing they were going in to face at least 5 vampires, I can't believe V doesn't have at least a couple slots devoted to Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil. Or would that be too easy?

V would need to know those spells, and it seems pretty likely they don't.

V was pretty much completely amoral for like 80% of the comic so far and never really thought about Good and Evil, so they never considered learning Good/Evil aligned spells. Plus, there was a cleric to fill in those gaps until very recently.

I find that it fits V from a character standpoint to not know the obvious wizard spells for the specific situation. Other situations? Maybe not. This specific one? Sure.

[Keltest]

They don't need to contain V for hours, only for as little as one round. V will be helpless after dismissing the forcecage, so in this scenario it'd be like
1- V dismisses the forcecage. The vampires will now swarm poor helpless V
2- The archfiends take V's soul and protect their body
3- The rest of the Order, now on their guards, destroys many a vampire and creates a perimeter around V's body
4- V's soul is returned in time to take their turn and blast some more vampires from comparative safety

I mean, theoretically. No idea how that fancy Initiative thing would affect this scenario.

I was responding to the idea that the fiends could force the Order to wait out the full duration of the forcecage.

[Mandor]

I'm still holding out hope for....

• Greg is foolish enough to come up close to them and taunt them. (Evil Emperor Mistake #something)
• V has Anti-Magic Shell prepared or otherwise available via Scroll
• Vampires revert to lifeless corpses during Anti-Magic Shell (I DO NOT know this to be the case, just hoping)
• They mass-gank all the vampires thusly, staking them while they're down and before the Shell wears off.

But I'm going to file this under DARNED unlikely.
V stakes V's entire self image on contributing via spellcasting.
Having Anti-Magic Shell on tap would be.... unusual. Unless he were planning a specific technique like this.

[tyckspoon]

What the Order needs now is a cunning plan. Unfortunately, to come up with a cunning plan requires people who are actually cunning.

Possible useful things:
Vampires recoil from a strongly presented holy symbol. This is non-optional. Minrah, being at least part Cleric, almost certainly is carrying a holy symbol. The rules are vague on if you can present a symbol at more than one vampire at a time, but artistic license could allow for it.. if the Order can find a better solution to the Domination gazes plus any spells that may be available to the vampires who are actual vampires and not just thralls, they may simply be able to walk out of the situation. Or at least keep any vampires from touching V and draining more levels from him. (This would also be an avenue where Minrah can a: be directly useful despite being severely underlevel for this fight and b: much less likely to get killed.) Vampires also recoil from mirrors, and Haley probably has one on her person.

Archons - such as the Lantern and Hound Archons found on the Summon Monster IV and V lists - have a permanent aura of Magic Circle Against Evil as well as a debuff aura that will affect vampires. Combined, those will make the thralls highly unlikely to hit with their attacks to attempt energy drain and protect against Domination. V banned Conjuration, but they're possible spells for Elan.

Vampires have no special ability to detect invisibility, outside of whatever spells the actual Vampire ones may have. Invisibility Sphere, Invisibility, and Greater Invisibility are options for both V and Elan, and would keep V safe long enough to dismiss the Forcecage without getting swarmed under. Combine with V's flight and the ability to make a move before or after actually dismissing the Forcecage and V can adjust to a better position to nuke a good portion of the swarm with her next action. (Invisibility would possibly also provide a defense against getting Dominated, as the vampires would not know where to direct their gaze to try it.)

[Ganbatte]

Knowing they were going in to face at least 5 vampires, I can't believe V doesn't have at least a couple slots devoted to Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil. Or would that be too easy?

This has been a long standing issue ever since the Durkon vs Malack fight, where a simple cast of any of those low level protections would've solved a vast majority of the problems. Granted Durkon didn't know at the time that he was going to fight a vampire, but the Order most certainly did now.

Which is kinda even more annoying seeing how the vampires are constantly making 100% full use of their template's advantages but their foes are never capitalizing on any of their weaknesses.

[dtilque]

What if V cast Resilient Sphere on self first and then dismissed the cage? Would that keep the vamps off long enough?

Resilient Sphere is 1 ft/level, in this case 17 ft. That would encompass the entire Forcecase plus a good ways around it. If V were in the center of the cage, it would be 7 feet beyond the middle of each wall and about 4 feet beyond each corner. So the vampires outside the forcecage would be inside the sphere.

I find this spell, like so many of the spells in D&D to be underspecified. For example, It doesn't say what happens if a being is intersected by the sphere.

The spell that would really work here is...

Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (Empowered, of course)

I can't guarantee this, but I'm fairly sure that was a one-time joke and we'll never see that spell again.

[Doctor West]

Q: In Strip #X, why didn't character Y take action Z? If they had done so, they could have avoided a whole lot of trouble.

A: You just answered your own question. The strip is ABOUT the trouble these characters get in; if a tactic would result in an effortless solution to their latest problem, there would be little point in showing it, see? The characters are woefully inefficient as a result, and often take actions that are rarely seen in a real D&D game, like running away from moderate danger or 'forgetting' major abilities for the sake of a joke. But their foibles are what fuel the humor.

Writer and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski had a standard answer for overzealous fans who would ask him obscure questions like, 'How fast does a Starfury (the show's standard fighter ship) fly?' He would say, 'They travel at the speed of plot,' meaning that if the script called for them to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, they could, and if the script called for them to get there too late, they couldn't. The Order of the Stick travels almost exclusively at the speed of plot.

This feels relevant right now.

[Reboot]

Resilient Sphere is 1 ft/level, in this case 17 ft. That would encompass the entire Forcecase plus a good ways around it.

Didn't look like 1ft/l here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html

Either that's a maximum and it can be "undercast", or V got it in the same bargain bin as their invisibility sphere.

[RatElemental]

Resilient Sphere is 1 ft/level, in this case 17 ft. That would encompass the entire Forcecase plus a good ways around it. If V were in the center of the cage, it would be 7 feet beyond the middle of each wall and about 4 feet beyond each corner. So the vampires outside the forcecage would be inside the sphere.

I find this spell, like so many of the spells in D&D to be underspecified. For example, It doesn't say what happens if a being is intersected by the sphere.

Not necessarily.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Also there was the time V cast the spell. That bubble doesn't look bigger than a few feet to me, when by that time V was still quite high level.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Basement Cat]

I'm curious: Given the number of times Durkula sapped Roy's life force during their Epic Duel Roy should have been reduced to a mid to low level fighter at least.

So: Has it been established in the OotS's world that a vampire's life force drain specifically drains character levels or just "life force" aka hit points?

[danielxcutter]

I'm curious: Given the number of times Durkula sapped Roy's life force during their Epic Duel Roy should have been reduced to a mid to low level fighter at least.

So: Has it been established in the OotS's world that a vampire's life force drain specifically drains character levels or just "life force" aka hit points?

That's not how negative levels work(only permanent if you fail a Fort save), plus it's implied that his greatsword healed him and restored those negative levels as well.

[Peelee]

This has been a long standing issue ever since the Durkon vs Malack fight, where a simple cast of any of those low level protections would've solved a vast majority of the problems. Granted Durkon didn't know at the time that he was going to fight a vampire, but the Order most certainly did now.

Which is kinda even more annoying seeing how the vampires are constantly making 100% full use of their template's advantages but their foes are never capitalizing on any of their weaknesses.

Does V have the spells in question? Because if not, then how could he capitalize on the vampires' weaknesses?

[ericgrau]

Knowing they were going in to face at least 5 vampires, I can't believe V doesn't have at least a couple slots devoted to Protection from Evil and Magic Circle against Evil. Or would that be too easy?

Heck scribe a few scrolls. But I doubt it. She did prepare 2 mind blanks for this purpose, and the 2nd one has yet to be designated. The first one is her, making me think the closed eyes may be some kind of trick, or forgetfulness. Belkar has an item for protection from evil. That leaves 2 people, 3 counting the NPC.

Besides obviously being of greater power, mind blank has one other advantage. It lasts 24 hours. Sure in hindsight protection from evil sounds great, but it would have done no good to cast it in the morning, nor in the middle of a fight. Some scrolls are more plausible, or 1 spell slot. But not enough prepared spell slots to tag the whole party. Why would she predict the need? And if so, why not enough for 2 or 3 fights? And suddenly there go a lot of spell slots. A couple protections from evil prepared or some scrolls are more practical. And I'm guessing she never got around to scribing a bunch of scrolls. Maybe 1 magic circle, but its radius is a bit tight for melee combat when they are better off advancing and taking down multiple a round. Remember they actually have to do something after dropping the bubble, not only stand there and not get dominated.

[Keltest]

Heck scribe a few scrolls. But I doubt it. She did prepare 2 mind blanks for this purpose, and the 2nd one has yet to be designated. The first one is her, making me think the closed eyes may be some kind of trick, or forgetfulness. Belkar has an item for protection from evil. That leaves 2 people, 3 counting the NPC.

Besides obviously being of greater power, mind blank has one other advantage. It lasts 24 hours. Sure in hindsight protection from evil sounds great, but it would have done no good to cast it in the morning, nor in the middle of a fight. Some scrolls are more plausible, or 1 spell slot. But not enough prepared spell slots to tag the whole party. Why would she predict the need? And if so, why not enough for 2 or 3 fights? And suddenly there go a lot of spell slots. A couple protections from evil prepared or some scrolls are more practical. And I'm guessing she never got around to scribing a bunch of scrolls. Maybe 1 magic circle, but its radius is a bit tight for melee combat when they are better off advancing and taking down multiple a round. Remember they actually have to do something after dropping the bubble, not only stand there and not get dominated.

Protection from Evil has a duration of one minute per caster level. That's longer than any combat should reasonably go barring something like, say, being stuck in a force cage for a day and a half.

[Aquillion]

Protection from Evil has a duration of one minute per caster level. That's longer than any combat should reasonably go barring something like, say, being stuck in a force cage for a day and a half.

Plus, it's very unlikely that V is going to use every level 1 slot anyway. It'd be a good idea to pack that spell in case something goes wrong and a party member (or even an NPC) needs to be briefly and immediately un-dominated.

That said, I think the usual rule of "if they did that, there wouldn't be a plot" applies. If V were optimal, the group would have teleport-ganked most of their enemies already.