Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

[Ugganaut]

Good! Personally the Wizard/Mage has never been my kind of thing - it's far too generic for my liking. I've always preferred the Sorcerer's flavor so Mage hasn't got as much love as the Sorcerer has.

Mage/Thief was my first character in 2nd Ed, but haven't played one since I found Sorcerer. I hated that mages could lose so much power from their spellbook being stolen or destroyed, and that the spellbook was so costly to create and duplicate. No other class has a literal tax on their abilities like mage. Martials need gear, but it's stuff you find adventuring usually. You find an enemies spellbook, you still have to pay to scribe it into your spellbook. Other casters got spells for free, never pay a dime. While others buy potions or items with party treasure, mages pay just to make use of their class features, all with the lowest HP in the game, just hoping you stay alive long enough to get high level spells. Having said that, I'm really keen to play a Magus.

Teleport an ally to the caster? Is there some kind of history for such an ability? I can't think of any source material where that is used.

I thought there was a spell or something in 4e, but could be wrong. Just thought it suited a Conjuration specialist.

This feature cuts off the usage of mana because it is a reliably repeatable option. The other option is to limit its usages to X times, but I wanted it to be repeatable. Psionicist has it as a core class feature: "Kinetic Deflection"

For a Wizard that is a massive deal. No reaction spells to save yourself, nothing but cantrips. I haven't seen another caster get cut off like that. For the Magus, it's really not that much of an issue. I'd actually say it's a reward, because you can easily burn your lower mana pool, and use that every round. At no point does the Magus lose his combat abilities(that he gave up half his mage mana pool to get in a way), and with this it's enhanced. I think X times is a resource equally valuable to both Wizard/Magus, and doesn't cut the wizard off from it's primary function.

Search is a notoriously difficult feature. I could alternatively list all spell names for each theme on the theme page.

I don't know anything about coding, didn't think it would be hard. Spell names would be a big help, can search that one page for a spell.

Chaos is a very defined concept and character choice. I don't see the same for Law, but if you think there are 10+ spells to fill out a theme please suggest it.

I don't even know how to define a Law themed spell. A Mage of Mechanus came up, and I noticed there was a Chaos theme but no Law. Just mentioning it. There's probably other themes that aren't represented explicitly, I don't think it's a big issue. It did feel odd that a Conjurer had to go hunting themes for Conjuration spells. The Evoker for example, can choose any damage type theme and it's full of options that suit him. Abjuration has Protection. Divination and Fate has Divination. Enchantment has Charm. Illusion has Illusion. Transmutation has Alteration. Necromancy has Undeath. Conjuration is more of a scavenger hunt, but with Arcane Secrets, I'm not sure it's an issue, just thinking out loud.

Astral Construct: The stat block doesn't seem to match the table(Ability Scores, Slam Attack) for the base Small construct. The only Enhancements I found on the page were the Augments(are they somewhere else?), and the Augments don't fit the new costing.

[Marcloure]

I thought there was a spell or something in 4e, but could be wrong. Just thought it suited a Conjuration specialist.

I would not be exaggerating too much if I say 4E has at least one power for any combination of effects, target and area. I don't think that really counts when looking for a spell to adapt.

I don't know anything about coding, didn't think it would be hard. Spell names would be a big help, can search that one page for a spell.

I cannot say about how kryx builds his website, and little I know of code for web, but building a dictionary and a way to search through it is usually more time expensive and boring than hard.
Anyway, you can use the spells spreadsheet to search for a spell name using Ctrl + F.

It did feel odd that a Conjurer had to go hunting themes for Conjuration spells. The Evoker for example, can choose any damage type theme and it's full of options that suit him. Abjuration has Protection. Divination and Fate has Divination. Enchantment has Charm. Illusion has Illusion. Transmutation has Alteration. Necromancy has Undeath. Conjuration is more of a scavenger hunt, but with Arcane Secrets, I'm not sure it's an issue, just thinking out loud.

IMO, conjuration always had a bunch of different stuff thrown together. From healing, to teleport, to summons and to matter creation. Summoning doesn't have its own theme, a decision I agree with, but all others have their own right place.

[Ugganaut]

I would not be exaggerating too much if I say 4E has at least one power for any combination of effects, target and area. I don't think that really counts when looking for a spell to adapt.

Do you think an Augment option for Teleport(or part of the Conjuration feature) that brought a willing creature adjacent to you would be overpowered? I don't think because something is in 4e that it should be excluded. Only if it can't be balanced.

I cannot say about how kryx builds his website, and little I know of code for web, but building a dictionary and a way to search through it is usually more time expensive and boring than hard.
Anyway, you can use the spells spreadsheet to search for a spell name using Ctrl + F.

That's very handy, would be nice to have the functionality all in one place. Might not be viable, just a suggestion.

IMO, conjuration always had a bunch of different stuff thrown together. From healing, to teleport, to summons and to matter creation. Summoning doesn't have its own theme, a decision I agree with, but all others have their own right place.

I probably just don't understand what a theme is, because Summoning seems like a theme to me. Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong

[Marcloure]

I probably just don't understand what a theme is, because Summoning seems like a theme to me. Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong

I mean, it could be a theme by its own, but its spells would be compilation of summonings from other themes. And I'm rather happy with Conjure Fire Elemental being on Fire theme than under some other theme.

[Ugganaut]

I mean, it could be a theme by its own, but its spells would be compilation of summonings from other themes. And I'm rather happy with Conjure Fire Elemental being on Fire theme than under some other theme.

This is an example, I think I mentioned in an earlier post, of the same spell being valid for multiple themes. I was just pointing out that to be a conjurer, there is no base theme that makes sense...if that makes sense. Teleportation, the current base, doesn't feel representative of a conjurer like the other schools, and it has one summoning type spell(Instant Summons). I think Summoning would fill that gap. If it's not viable for whatever reason, so be it, I just thought I'd mention it was the odd one out in the Mage schools. You could still make a Conjurer/Summoner, it's just not as straight forward I think, you'd go fishing for the conjuring/summoning spells as time went on with your theme choices and Arcane Secrets. If you found another conjurer's spellbook, it could be an amazing find :)

Kryx put the spell list on the theme page, and just noticed no spell has Conjure in the title :)

Edit: It's Summon :)
Actually, maybe you're right. If you box all those summon spells into one theme, it looks wrong. If you want to summon celestials, you might not want to summon demons. Now that I see the lists, Spirit actually looks like a good base for Conjuration. Conjuring spirits to help you, making one a familiar, summoning a steed, creature to fight for you. The other spells don't fit, but no theme has everything :)

[Kryx]

Do you think an Augment option for Teleport(or part of the Conjuration feature) that brought a willing creature adjacent to you would be overpowered?

I'm not convinced it is a good option from a flavor perspective. I can only think of 2 uses: 1. As an offensive tool like Scorpio's "Get over here" 2. As a get an ally out of trouble.
#1 is covered by Bound Proximity.
#2 is a bit niche. Transposition and Joint Teleport cover this at 2 mana. Not sure it's worth adding a simpler version at 1 mana that just brings an ally to you. It feels.. wrong somehow.

For a Wizard that is a massive deal. No reaction spells to save yourself, nothing but cantrips. I haven't seen another caster get cut off like that. For the Magus, it's really not that much of an issue. I'd actually say it's a reward, because you can easily burn your lower mana pool, and use that every round. At no point does the Magus lose his combat abilities(that he gave up half his mage mana pool to get in a way), and with this it's enhanced. I think X times is a resource equally valuable to both Wizard/Magus, and doesn't cut the wizard off from it's primary function.

I fully agree with your logic, but only being able to use it X times per day is effectively saying that the class has X more mana as most themes have a reaction spell that does this already.
I've added https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...shroud-kinetic to think on it a bit.

I don't even know how to define a Law themed spell. A Mage of Mechanus came up, and I noticed there was a Chaos theme but no Law. Just mentioning it.

The idea would have to be more concrete than this. I don't think there is a definition for a "law spell", but if there is a solid list I'm open to the idea.

==========================

Conjuration

There's probably other themes that aren't represented explicitly, I don't think it's a big issue. It did feel odd that a Conjurer had to go hunting themes for Conjuration spells. The Evoker for example, can choose any damage type theme and it's full of options that suit him. Abjuration has Protection. Divination and Fate has Divination. Enchantment has Charm. Illusion has Illusion. Transmutation has Alteration. Necromancy has Undeath. Conjuration is more of a scavenger hunt, but with Arcane Secrets, I'm not sure it's an issue, just thinking out loud.

Conjuration is a relic of spell schools. It should really be done away with and replaced, possibly with the Nomad from the Psionicist. I've added https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...uration-wizard to handle this

Astral Construct: The stat block doesn't seem to match the table(Ability Scores, Slam Attack) for the base Small construct. The only Enhancements I found on the page were the Augments(are they somewhere else?), and the Augments don't fit the new costing.

All summoning spells need to be overhauled. See https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...mmoning-spells

This is an example, I think I mentioned in an earlier post, of the same spell being valid for multiple themes. I was just pointing out that to be a conjurer, there is no base theme that makes sense...if that makes sense.

Definition of a conjurer on wikipedia: "Conjurer, someone who exercises evocation, the act of calling upon or summoning a spirit, demon, god, witch or other supernatural agent, in the Western mystery tradition".

A conjurer, by that definition, is totally possible within my theme system. There are spells that do all of those things. You can even use all/most of your mana on those specific spells if so desired. Conjurer.

You could still make a Conjurer/Summoner, it's just not as straight forward I think, you'd go fishing for the conjuring/summoning spells as time went on with your theme choices

This version of a Conjurer that can summon every possible summoned creature doesn't fit any lore that I know of. Eidolon/Astral Construct are there for people who want to play a very pet focused class.

I probably just don't understand what a theme is, because Summoning seems like a theme to me. Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong

I would like to challenge this idea with a theoretical list of summoning spells:
Animate Acid (acid elemental)
Animate Air (air elemental)
Animate Earth (earth elemental)
Animate Fire (fire elemental)
Animate Ice (ice elemental)
Animate Storm (storm elemental)
Animate Water (water weird/water elemental)
Astral Construct
Animal Companion
Call Steed / Divine Steed / Find Steed
Giant Insect
Summon Beast
Summon Celestial
Planar Ally
Planar Binding
Find Familiar
Summon Eidolon
Summon Demons
Infernal Calling

I'm sure there are a few I missed, but even with that list I can't think of a single character concept that would even take a quarter of those spells. That's because summoning isn't a theme any more than "burst spells" is a theme. Each theme may have that type of spell, but that type of spell is not a theme in and of itself.

Actually, maybe you're right. If you box all those summon spells into one theme, it looks wrong. If you want to summon celestials, you might not want to summon demons. Now that I see the lists, Spirit actually looks like a good base for Conjuration. Conjuring spirits to help you, making one a familiar, summoning a steed, creature to fight for you. The other spells don't fit, but no theme has everything :)

Looks like you agree as well. ;)

[Ugganaut]

Looks like you agree as well. ;)

Yep :) Summoner's don't usually have a whole pile of summon spells, they usually have a few signature ones they use. Any mage can do that. Unless there was a school to buff summoned creatures, it's not really a theme of spell, just a type of spell.

Heading out of town for a week, probably won't be online. I'll get back into it when I get home.

[Kryx]

I added the caster to the DPR spreadsheet and refined some numbers to more closely align casters with expectations:

• All Caster mana rebalanced to be slightly higher at earlier levels and slightly lower at later levels (30 vs 32 for full caster, 15 vs 16 for half)
• Quickened Cantrips moved to 2nd level. It now reads: "When you cast a cantrip as an action, you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action. Starting at 11th level, when you cast a 1 mana spell as an action, you can cast a cantrip as a bonus action."
• Focused Concentration moved to 5th level
• Mage channels cantrips in to their bonded weapon at level 2. Battle Magic removed. At 11th level the Mage can channel a 1+ mana spell and a cantrip.
• Cleaned up some leftover rules on the spreadsheet like Favorite Enemy
• Barbarian rage damage increased so they are more in line with DPR expectations
• Minstrel's Psychic Assault damage increased to 3d8 to match Smite. Battle Magic can still do cantrips or spells.
• Empowered Cantrips removed as it conflicts with Magus, Minstrel, and even full casters now that they can do two cantrips in a turn. Closes https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...oo-strong-when

Other changes:

• Entropic Shield dropped to 12.5% at 1 mana. It aligns with Blur at 25% chance to avoid at 2 mana and scales at 12.5% per mana.
• School of Conjuration replaced with Teleportation. Closes https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...uration-wizard
• School of Evocation reworked to have evocations: similar to Sorcerer's Surges, but limited to Sculpt Spell, Deflecting Shroud, and Empowered Spell. Closes https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...shroud-kinetic
• Wall description includes panels now. Closes https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...-based-on-mana

I tried quite hard to create a Divination cantrip, but couldn't come up with one good. I scoured D&D beyond homebrew spells for ideas with no luck. If anyone has suggestions please suggest them: https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...-to-divination

To beat an old drum: I've been inspired to potentially revive the Occultist (Witch) by watching the "Chilling Adventures of Sabrina". I'll need to flesh out some core features, but I think there may be options. It would lose the "seeker of knowledge" aspect, but gain other aspects.

[Wherf]

I tried quite hard to create a Divination cantrip, but couldn't come up with one good. I scoured D&D beyond homebrew spells for ideas with no luck.

To beat an old drum: I've been inspired to potentially revive the Occultist (Witch) by watching the "Chilling Adventures of Sabrina". I'll need to flesh out some core features, but I think there may be options. It would lose the "seeker of knowledge" aspect, but gain other aspects.

A combination of Witch and Alchemist/Artificer could be interesting. I've never played a Witch in pathfinder but the various Hex's you could earn was always very fun. I'll gladly take a look once you have something available.

I'll suggest some Divination cantrips. I have a few ideas.

[Kryx]

Changes:

• Racial ability scores changed to have 2 ability score increases (typically 1+any other) and 1 ability score increase added to each class or archetype.
• Occultist resurrected from its brutal murder. It needs:
  • Expand the "Bonds of the Soul" section (if anyone is great with wording I'd love some help here)
  • Solidify the Core class feature. I'm very happy with Familiar and Grimoire. Witchcraft is half implemented with some ideas from PF Witch and some from PHB Warlock. It's not finished at all because I'm not fully happy with it. It's based on the Channel Divinity model, but I'm not really sure how to capture "Witchcraft" as a theme right now. I'll revamp this section when its ready (please provide ideas if you have them), but the rest of the structure can be presented before this is done.
• Sorcerer can no longer have its power source from a pact, all of that flavor moved to Occultist.
• Summoner added as an Occultist as an archetype. I did a ton of math on it to ensure all the options are balanced: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1372301824. Summon Eidolon removed as a Spirit spell.
• Beastmaster added as a Naturalist archetype. I did some math that looks very similar to the Occultist math so I didn't do it for all fighting types: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1470293847. Animal Companion spell removed as a Beast spell.
• Astral Construct merged in to Shaper Psionicist. Astral Construct removed as an Astral spell.
• Creature Enhancements cleaned up
• Several Perks removed (moved to Occultist’s Witchcraft feature, but I need to revisit that feature - see above)
• Water Breathing and Water Walk are both ritual spells as they are in RAW.
• Mage/Psionicist clean up
  • Psionicist Intellect Fortress replaced with new wording
  • Improved Abjuration works on any Antimagic or Protection spell
  • Portent changed to be a reaction and a limit of 120 feet added so it isn't sight range
  • Split Enchantment and Alter Memories work on Charm spells instead of "enchantment"
• Wild Shape forms known is changed to proficiency bonus
• Wild Shape and Origin Form duration rounds up instead of down
• Wild Shape lets you heal as a bonus action

[Kryx]

Summoning spells are all balanced:

• Summoning Spells changed to always use the caster's spell attack instead of the monster's attack.
• Animate Dead added Ogre Zombie
• Animate Objects moved to 1 mana (for tiny and small - the rest stay at the same mana cost as before)
• Added a myriad of options to Call Beast and Giant Insect
• Elementals (Air, Earth, Fire, etc) rebalanced to be 6 mana
• Summon Demons and Infernal Calling combined to Fiendish Calling. The fiend is friendly, but can turn hostile.

Enjoy your summoning!

[Wherf]

I am a little concerned with Full Caster damage numbers. Comparing your DPR chart for casters vs. original 5e, I believe spell damage numbers should be reduced- especially for augments.

Spoiler: DPR Comparisons for Spells

Show

Original 5e DPR https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1835990306

Kryx DPR: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t?usp=drivesdk

In 5th level Full Caster has 1st Level(4 Slots), 2nd Level(3 Slots), and 3rd Level (2 Slots) that recover on a long rest. A Kryx Full Caster has 8 Mana and a Mana Limit of 2, mana recovers on a short rest.

In classic(5e) highest damage for a 2nd level single target spell is Scorching Ray. Scorching Ray at 2nd level is 6d6 damage against a single target. Damage averages around 18 if all three hit. For Kryx Casters 2 Mana damage averages around 25.9. However these spells tend to be more reliable. Half damage on a save or only one attack roll for many of them. A two mana Inflict Wounds (16d4) turns into 32d4 on a critical hit. In classic 5e, these high damage rolls are extremely rare because damage is split into multiple rays or done in saves for most high damage attacks.

I'm not terribly confident in my statistical skills, but in-game Full Casters are quite intimidating in both utility and damage against Martials. Spells in general are so much stronger than standard 5e. As one example, a Force Beam cantrip twice per turn does 4d6 unavoidable damage. A wizard can do that while under the effects of blur while levitating above a poor fighter's head!

I'm sure there's something I am failing to consider, but spell scaling seems like it needs to be toned down. If we keep damage potential somewhat consistent with standard 5e it allows the Kryx System to be more accessible for homebrewed monsters, archetypes, and other houserules. I'm curious to what everyone thinks of this, I think the best way is to lower damage for all spells, especially augments. As well as requiring higher damage spells to be touch spells or deal their damage out in an unreliable way (e.g., multiple rays, acid damage over time, weak damage type).

Even with low damage, the interaction of spells together can really turn a battle around. A wizard only using dessicate is nothing compared to one using grease while walking on walls! Blur, Invisibility, and other buffs as well as debuffs do a lot to make Full Casters a threat. I believe their DPR should generally be lower than Martials.


- Hope this isn't a complete mess to read!

[Kryx]

I am a little concerned with Full Caster damage numbers. Comparing your DPR chart for casters vs. original 5e, I believe spell damage numbers should be reduced- especially for augments.
...
If we keep damage potential somewhat consistent with standard 5e it allows the Kryx System to be more accessible for homebrewed monsters, archetypes, and other houserules.

I fully agree with the idea of keeping damage consistent to RAW damage expectations. Spells are specifically designed to align with RAW damage expectations. I believe I have done so and will show the damage values of RAW vs my system below.

If we compare to DMG guidelines (DMG 284) thinks look pretty good:

So my spells are pretty equal (slightly below) DMG guidelines.

RAW damage of higher level spells is nothing close to the DMG guidelines. For example RAW Meteor Swarm, even reduced to 30d6 instead of 40d6, does ~300 damage value (See my old Spell Balance). Other spells like Fireball and Lightning Bolt are off the charts for their levels too - both of those spells should actually be 5th level spells, not 3rd. If we look at my system compared to RAW D&D 5e, spells are doing the damage they should as there are no outlier spells which are generally the spells that players would actually use and would increase the overall damage of spells.

As one example, a Force Beam cantrip twice per turn does 4d6 unavoidable damage. A wizard can do that while under the effects of blur while levitating above a poor fighter's head!

While the Wizard is doing 14 unavoidable DPR the Barbarian is doing 35 DPR. 2 cantrips is not a concern.

In classic(5e) highest damage for a 2nd level single target spell is Scorching Ray. Scorching Ray at 2nd level is 6d6 damage against a single target. Damage averages around 18 if all three hit. For Kryx Casters 2 Mana damage averages around 25.9. However these spells tend to be more reliable. Half damage on a save or only one attack roll for many of them. A two mana Inflict Wounds (16d4) turns into 32d4 on a critical hit. In classic 5e, these high damage rolls are extremely rare because damage is split into multiple rays or done in saves for most high damage attacks.

Mundane comparison:
RAW Wizard: 4 1st (11.55), 3 2nd (14.7), 2 3rd (~82.5). Total damage of ~255.

Spoiler: Damage calculations

Show

1st level spell = Inflict Wounds. .65*16.5 + .05*16.5 = 10.725 + 0.825 = 11.55
2nd level spell = Scorching Ray. .65*21 + .05*21 = 13.65 + 1.05 = 14.7
3rd level spell = Fireball. Here is where it gets tricky. 28 damage, save is generally around 55%, damages for half so 28*0.55 + 14*0.45 =15.4 + 6.3 = 21.7 damage to each target hit. If we were to assume a 20 radius spell will hit about 3.8 creatures each fireball would do about 82.5 damage.

My Wizard: 13 damage per mana.

No Short Rests:
RAW Wizard: ~255 damage.
My Wizard: 8 mana*13 = 104 damage

1 Short Rest:
RAW Wizard: ~255 damage, plus recover 2 levels worth = 255 + 2*11.55 = ~278 damage
My Wizard: 16 mana*13 = 208 damage

2 Short Rests:
RAW Wizard: ~255 damage, plus recover 2 levels worth = 255 + 2*11.55 = ~278 damage
My Wizard: 24 mana*13 = 312 damage

Using DPR:
My Wizard will be doing 18 DPR. 18*23.1 rounds a day = 415.8 damage
A GWM Barbarian is doing 35 DPR. 35*23.1 rounds a day = 808 damage.


Conclusion:
Comparison with damage expectations: The damage numbers are aligned with the DMG and close to RAW casters.
Comparison to martials: Casters do less damage than martials at 5th level by a long shot, it's not even a close comparison even after buffs like two cantrips a turn.
Comparison with RAW Casters: RAW casters significantly out damage my casters when groups don't take short rests. When they do take short rests then the numbers favor RAW a bit.

I'd argue that the RAW caster numbers should be higher anyways as casters are known to do quite bad damage at early levels, only ramping up as they get slots above 3rd level and they reach sky high levels later. My goal was to make them more competetive at all levels which means lower damage at the top tier, but also higher damage at lower levels where they aren't so great by RAW.

Overall conclusion: I believe the numbers are sound. Perhaps I've missed something, but as far as I can see they look correct. Let me know if you see otherwise.

[Marcloure]

Questions.

1. Empowered Cantrip, a perk that adds spellcasting modifier to cantrips damage, with Quickened Cantrips. Should the damage from empowered cantrips apply only once per turn or is it fine on every cantrip cast?

2. Classes giving ability score. I see you also adapted this from PF 2, which I'm fine with, but some classe-race combinations allow characters to start with 18 ability score. I think that is fine, since at level 4 they can only increase it by 1 point anyway, but is it intentional?

[Kryx]

1. Empowered Cantrip, a perk that adds spellcasting modifier to cantrips damage, with Quickened Cantrips. Should the damage from empowered cantrips apply only once per turn or is it fine on every cantrip cast?

See above

Empowered Cantrips removed as it conflicts with Magus, Minstrel, and even full casters now that they can do two cantrips in a turn. Closes https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...oo-strong-when

=======================

2. Classes giving ability score. I see you also adapted this from PF 2, which I'm fine with, but some classe-race combinations allow characters to start with 18 ability score. I think that is fine, since at level 4 they can only increase it by 1 point anyway, but is it intentional?

13th age also has this. I think it's a better method.
No Ancestry/Class combination can start at 18 (assuming point buy). 15 is the point buy max, an ancestry can provide 1+1 other and a class provides 1. 15+2=17 max starting, so the same as before.

[Kryx]

Changes:

• Disintegrate moved from Death to Force
• Iron Maiden stunned instead of paralyzed, damage boosted slightly.
• Genasi Ancestry added with Air, Earth, Fire, and Water Genasi origins. Oread and Undine merged in.
• Ferrous Growth added to Earth theme as a cantrip

[Marcloure]

13th age also has this. I think it's a better method.
No Ancestry/Class combination can start at 18 (assuming point buy). 15 is the point buy max, an ancestry can provide 1+1 other and a class provides 1. 15+2=17 max starting, so the same as before.

So, you can't pick an ability score as racial improvement if your subrace also improves that ability?
How it is written, a Rock Gnome Mage can pick +1 Int as base gnome improvement, gains +1 Int from rock gnome and another +1 Int from the Mage. That is 15+3 to Int.

[Kryx]

So, you can't pick an ability score as racial improvement if your subrace also improves that ability?
How it is written, a Rock Gnome Mage can pick +1 Int as base gnome improvement, gains +1 Int from rock gnome and another +1 Int from the Mage. That is 15+3 to Int.

I've updated the wording for Elf, Genasi, and Gnome to prevent this.
Gnome/Genasi use: "Any ability score of your choice other than the one provided by your ancestral origin increases by 1.".
Elf errantly allowed 3 ability scores. It's now Dex + ancestral origin ability score.

[Kryx]

Changes:

• 1st level subclass mini-features added to Mage, Minstrel, Naturalist, and Psionicist. Closes https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...level-subclass

Any feedback on Occultist? I could use some help on the core feature and wording as mentioned above:

• Expand the "Bonds of the Soul" section (if anyone is great with wording I'd love some help here)
• Solidify the Core class feature. I'm very happy with Familiar and Grimoire. Witchcraft is half implemented with some ideas from PF Witch and some from PHB Warlock. It's not finished at all because I'm not fully happy with it. It's based on the Channel Divinity model, but I'm not really sure how to capture "Witchcraft" as a theme right now. I'll revamp this section when its ready (please provide ideas if you have them), but the rest of the structure can be presented before this is done.

[Indigo Knight]

This seems like a very successful project. But arriving very late, I don't know where to start reading. Any pointers?

[Kryx]

This seems like a very successful project. But arriving very late, I don't know where to start reading. Any pointers?

Thanks for joining in the conversation! I've been meaning to update the main points and the "why". I'll add some details on the main page of my site. Until then you can read some "why"s at the bottom of "Themes".

Short summary:

• Balanced spells (spells of each tier are equal to other spells of the same tier and spells scaled up are equal to spells of that tier)
• Move spells to earlier tiers and reduce damage
• Reduce the total number of tiers from 9 to 6.
• Classes are balanced for short rests. They are also balanced against eachother in terms of features and DPR. Class and Subclass features are balanced against eachother and come at common intervals across all classes (martials differ, but they are similar to eachother).
• Perk system replaces feats (smaller size, more often)
• Saving throws use Fortitude, Reflex, and Will to balance out those options.
• Armor changed to be more flavorful and fair to each class
• Some weapon options improved or aligned with other weapon options of the same type.

[Marcloure]

Any feedback on Occultist?

I've actually given some thought into it.

Occultist's Witchcraft ends up being an alternate version of Arcane/Eldritch Secrets: you can cast certain spells without knowing its theme, but only for a number of times. That per se is fine, it is still a cool feature.
But, I feel there is something not quite right there, but I'm not sure what it is. I think my problem is in the Witch/Warlock, they already have access to spells, and then a feature which gives them some more extra spells.

I feel it would be better if Warlocks were also half-casters and had other features. The class would have fewer magical insights and mana than a Mage or Sorcerer, but they already have spell-like features they can cast without theme restriction.
I don't feel like a full caster Occultist works good with Witchcraft, but it's hard to figure out why.

The Hexblade and the Summoner are good though. Especially the Summoner, I really like it. I still think a Weapon-wielder Sorcerer could make into the game, although I don't know what its fantasy should be.

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What should the "Bonds of the Soul" section talk about? Prophecies and Covens?

[Kryx]

I've actually given some thought into it.

Occultist's Witchcraft ends up being an alternate version of Arcane/Eldritch Secrets: you can cast certain spells without knowing its theme, but only for a number of times. That per se is fine, it is still a cool feature.
But, I feel there is something not quite right there, but I'm not sure what it is.

Witchcraft's "good" features are options like "Instinctive Charm", "Twist Fate", and "Unnerve Beasts". They do not simply duplicate spells and they focus on some of the core principles of Witchcraft: Charm, Fate, and Nature. If we continue on this Channel Divinity model I'd like to have ~5-7 core Witchcraft options and witchcraft options for each Patron.
I wonder if that's a sufficient identity though.. Thoughts?

I think my problem is in the Witch/Warlock, they already have access to spells, and then a feature which gives them some more extra spells.

I feel it would be better if Warlocks were also half-casters and had other features. The class would have fewer magical insights and mana than a Mage or Sorcerer, but they already have spell-like features they can cast without theme restriction.

I don't feel like a full caster Occultist works good with Witchcraft, but it's hard to figure out why.

See above about "extra spells" - I don't think the extra spell options that I currently present for Witchcraft is the right direction.

In stories I read, a Witch is just as strong of a spellcaster as an Acolyte, Mage, Naturalist, Sorcerer, etc. There is room for a powerful spellcaster in the Occultist class and I believe Witch/Warlock is the right name for that. I think keeping it as a full caster is the right approach rather than some hybrid half-caster half-other random spells/features. Witchcraft will cover the other powers if that can be done right.

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The Hexblade and the Summoner are good though. Especially the Summoner, I really like it.

Great! I poured through some old documents and really spent a lot of time on the balance of the Summoner (which allowed me to expand it to the Beastmaster). I'm quite happy with the results and think it's a much better fit than the spell based solution.

I still think a Weapon-wielder Sorcerer could make into the game, although I don't know what its fantasy should be.

Maybe. In the 5e playtest the Sorcerer transformed in to their origin as they ran out of spells and I think this "embodying the origin" idea is quite core to the Sorcerer class. The Shapeshifter does it a lot while the Sorcerer does it just a bit. Perhaps there is room for a weapon-wielding archetype that also does it just a bit, but I don't want it to feel tacked-on just because. It should have a fully defined flavor if it does come to exist - I'm open for suggestions.

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What should the "Bonds of the Soul" section talk about? Prophecies and Covens?

The "Sworn and Beholden" section talks about an Occultist's relationship with their patron.

The "Bonds of the Soul" section is meant to define Occultists beyond their patron. Currently it's focusing on philosophy and I expect it'll expand in to how their magic manifests (via using the spirits), but that really depends on the final flavor decisions. I find this kind of writing quite difficult to produce so am open to it being written by someone else. Spirits feels like the right direct as spirits are heavily featured in stories of the occult, but if that doesn't feel right I'm open to changing it.

[Wherf]

Overall conclusion: I believe the numbers are sound. Perhaps I've missed something, but as far as I can see they look correct. Let me know if you see otherwise.

In a test session one of the players hit a 2 Mana inflict wounds and did 71 damage, thus one shotting the boss.

This isn't a bad thing though- crits happen! It made me curious of how that compared to RAW 5e. I'll let you know what we find in our games. Thanks for the response.

[Marcloure]

Witchcraft's "good" features are options like "Instinctive Charm", "Twist Fate", and "Unnerve Beasts". They do not simply duplicate spells and they focus on some of the core principles of Witchcraft: Charm, Fate, and Nature. If we continue on this Channel Divinity model I'd like to have ~5-7 core Witchcraft options and witchcraft options for each Patron.
I wonder if that's a sufficient identity though.. Thoughts?


See above about "extra spells" - I don't think the extra spell options that I currently present for Witchcraft is the right direction.

In stories I read, a Witch is just as strong of a spellcaster as an Acolyte, Mage, Naturalist, Sorcerer, etc. There is room for a powerful spellcaster in the Occultist class and I believe Witch/Warlock is the right name for that. I think keeping it as a full caster is the right approach rather than some hybrid half-caster half-other random spells/features. Witchcraft will cover the other powers if that can be done right.

If Witchcraft is to be akin to Channel Divinity, and not just extra spells, then I'm fine with the Warlock being a full caster. My problem then was that I thought the feature would basically expand the Occultist's available spells with a predetermined list, "you can also cast these spells once", which I don't think is very good for a full caster class. It was basically an expanded list from RAW Warlock.

Now it's a matter of creativity to make new and more suitable options, and with each Patron having exclusive witchcraft, that can go a long way.

Actually, I really like this ideia now.

[Kryx]

In a test session one of the players hit a 2 Mana inflict wounds and did 71 damage, thus one shotting the boss.

Inflict Wounds, before this message, was 8d4 damage. At 2 mana that's 16d4 which is ~40 damage when it hits. A crit will generally be ~80 damage. So the numbers check out.

DMG's guidlines on page 284 have 1st level spells doing 2d10 (11 avg) and 2nd level spells doing 3d10 (16.5 avg). A 1 mana spell is the equivalent of a 1st/2nd level spell. The average 11 and 16.5 is 13.75.

A 2 mana spell is effectively the same as a RAW 3rd/4th level spell. Inflict Wounds, by RAW as a 3rd level spell does 5d10, ~27.5 damage, or about 55 on a crit. However that's below native 3rd level spell damage which is ~33 or ~47 for outlier cases like RAW Fireball and below 4th level spells which is ~43. So in my system where a 1 mana spell actually scales to the tier it is augmented to a ~40 damage spell aligns in between actual RAW (33-43) and outlier RAW (47).

One thing I failed to consider is that comparing my "damage value" vs dmg guidlines is that DMG guidelines are without the chance to miss. If we took the DMG guidelines and included chance to miss then things would change quite a lot:

We could soften the numbers to be 10 damage per mana if we go this route.

Current DPR:


Potential Alternative:

But this would mean the maximum damage of a 6 mana spell is 60 damage value. The actual damage is still in line with DMG guidelines, but RAW 9th level spells are not.
6 mana spells like Blizzard, Meteor Swarm, and Tsunami would have to be nerfed. Several spells will have to move up a tier. All summoning spells would move up by at least a tier, dropping the max CR summoned to be ~3 instead of ~4.

Lets consider this option with Inflict Wounds:
If the guideline was 10 damage per mana then Inflict Wounds drops from 3d12 to 3d10. At 2 mana that's 6d12 to 6d10. That "saves" 6 damage. 39 damage to 33 damage. A critical Inflict Wounds is still doing ~66 damage instead of ~78.

It's an option to consider, but I'd want some feedback before going through a whole rebalance of spells again (they are a pain to do).

===============

If Witchcraft is to be akin to Channel Divinity

Now it's a matter of creativity to make new and more suitable options, and with each Patron having exclusive witchcraft, that can go a long way.

Actually, I really like this ideia now.

I think it may be the right way to go, but we'll have to find good core options. I'll play around with the idea.

===============

Changes:

• Vow of Enmity and Reveal the Forsworn are now 1/long rest or use Channel Divinity.
• Ray of Sickness changed from 4d6 to 3d10 (small buff)
• Inflict wounds changed from 8d4 to 3d12 (small nerf, mainly to prevent rolling 8d4 or 16d4 at 2 mana or 32d4 at 4 mana... madness..)
• Goliath ancestry added
• Detect Magic added to Divination
• Removed several Witchcraft from Occultist
  • several of them are available as rituals which Grimoire allows the Occultist to pick up: Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Water Breathing, Water Walk
  • Ascendant Step (Levitate) added back as a perk
• Adjusted persistent damage spells based on some new calculations.
  • Bleed, Corrosive Consumption, and Immolation buffed from 3d4 to 2d10
  • Engulfing Ectoplasm and Entangle slightly nerfed from 3d4 to 2d6
  • Phantasmal Killer reworded a bit, moved to 2 mana, and changed from 2d6 to 3d6
  • Iron Maiden nerfed from 2d8 to 2d6
  • Burst with Light changed to not have an AoE, but blind the primary target. Damage remains the same, but augment changed from 2d6 to 3d6.

Witchcraft allowing Bestow Curse and Sleep seems like the right choice. Witches bestowing curses is so very common in lore, same with them putting creatures to sleep. Acolyte has some Channel Divinity that are effectively spells as well.
Though Bestow Curse is a 2 mana spell.. hmmm

[iridisink]

Witch magic as it is commonly depicted is very ritual based, as opposed to rapid fireball hurling. Cauldrons, intricate symbols ringed by salt and candles, maybe voodoo dolls in less western traditions, that sort of thing. This patient kind of magic could be reflected by having more ritual options or some kind of bonus to rituals, like being able to augment a ritual, and perhaps having witch specific augments for some rituals, or spells that are only rituals to witches. Though perhaps that doesn't suit a tactics game, as you can't cast a ritual in combat.

In my group, one player was a warlock, then we switched to using your rules and they became an occultist, then recently a sorcerer, without any flavour changing (their flavour is a sort of Lovecraftian telepath). I am now wondering if they will remain a sorcerer or will switch to this new witch. For me any of the spellcaster classes could support the story/flavour, with the right themes. Do you have plans to remove any the sorcerous origins so they are exclusive to occultist? Or alter the occultist pacts to be different from the sorcerer origin versions? I see some differences between sylvan sorcery and Archfey already.

From a design perspective what do you think of modular classes, where instead of a witch or sorcerer there is just a magic-user who selects which mental ability score to use as their spellcasting ability, and then chooses class features at specific levels from a list (sort of like pathfinder 2e class feats, I suppose), maybe with costs associated with them and a certain number of points to spend. This would let someone build whatever they needed mechanically to fit the flavour they wanted, similar to letting every spellcaster choose any theme. I'm not saying you should do this, I'm curious why you don't, as it seems your classes are balanced at each level and mechanically differ by a few key class features. This has allowed me to mix and match subclass abilities to easily make a hybrid subclass with its own flavour to fit the story, but perhaps there is a balance issue I'm not seeing?

[Marcloure]

Inflict Wounds, before this message, was 8d4 damage. At 2 mana that's 16d4 which is ~40 damage when it hits. A crit will generally be ~80 damage. So the numbers check out.
[...]
It's an option to consider, but I'd want some feedback before going through a whole rebalance of spells again (they are a pain to do).

I think ~13 damage per mana is good, it otherwise can be a bit too low, especially at first levels when mana is scarce. But I too have had problems with critical hits from spells, even so with spells that only do damage. The single time a NPC of mine casted Inflict Wounds against a PC, I crossed my fingers for it to not crit and instantaneously kill the character. Really nasty.

I think the problem with critical hits is that, unlike weapons, all damage from spells come from dice, and thus the damage is effectively doubled on a critical hit. A lucky roll of 12d12 at 2 mana can reach 90+ damage at 4th level. That is a lot.
A solution that comes to my mind to keep the base damage stable but lower critical damage is to make damage from attack spells a mix of dice and flat damage. I don't know if that is good design, I can remember only Magic Missile and Disintegrate from RAW that do add flat damage, but it is an option. That would also make attack spells have a higher minimum damage, which I don't think is any better or worse.
___

Witch magic as it is commonly depicted is very ritual based, as opposed to rapid fireball hurling. Cauldrons, intricate symbols ringed by salt and candles, maybe voodoo dolls in less western traditions, that sort of thing. This patient kind of magic could be reflected by having more ritual options or some kind of bonus to rituals, like being able to augment a ritual, and perhaps having witch specific augments for some rituals, or spells that are only rituals to witches. Though perhaps that doesn't suit a tactics game, as you can't cast a ritual in combat.

I have also suggested this, voodooism and charms are things that witches and warlocks do, but it's indeed problematic to make it work well on a game like D&D. A feature that you have fist know a target and then make a puppet with its face, or to sell a cursed item to someone, is rarely useful in a D&D game. This sort of things are usually let to NPCs for a reason. Also, most of it can be done as some sort of spell, like bestow curse, disguise or whatever.

[Wherf]

Lets consider this option with Inflict Wounds:
If the guideline was 10 damage per mana then Inflict Wounds drops from 3d12 to 3d10. At 2 mana that's 6d12 to 6d10. That "saves" 6 damage. 39 damage to 33 damage. A critical Inflict Wounds is still doing ~66 damage instead of ~78.

It's an option to consider, but I'd want some feedback before going through a whole rebalance of spells again (they are a pain to do).

It may take a week for group to get together and talk about these changes. My immediate reaction is to have weakened spells given my experiences thus far- this might in turn lead to modifications to cantrips or Quick Cantrips. I can see why it would be a pain!!

Instead of nerfing damage you could require higher damage spells to be touch, low range, done in multiple instances, or some other utility weakener. It is one reason why inflict wounds isn't great in base 5e. A cleric rarely wants to be right next to a minotaur after all.

[Kryx]

Witch magic as it is commonly depicted is very ritual based, as opposed to rapid fireball hurling. Cauldrons, intricate symbols ringed by salt and candles, maybe voodoo dolls in less western traditions, that sort of thing. This patient kind of magic could be reflected by having more ritual options or some kind of bonus to rituals, like being able to augment a ritual, and perhaps having witch specific augments for some rituals, or spells that are only rituals to witches. Though perhaps that doesn't suit a tactics game, as you can't cast a ritual in combat.

Witches do both ritual based magic and "quick" magic in stories I see (Chilling Adventures of Sabrina for example).
See the Grimoire feature - that covers the ritual aspect for the Occultist. The Occultist can add every ritual in the game. The only other class to get rituals, the Mage, can only add rituals from themes they know. Other classes can take a perk to get ritual casting for themes they know, but it still is not as powerful as the Occultist.

In my group, one player was a warlock, then we switched to using your rules and they became an occultist, then recently a sorcerer, without any flavour changing

Apologies for the many changes around this identity. Perhaps working in software extends the "fail fast" mindset here. I think this willingness to scrap former ideas makes the system better in the long term, sorry for the short term disruptions.

Do you have plans to remove any the sorcerous origins so they are exclusive to occultist? Or alter the occultist pacts to be different from the sorcerer origin versions? I see some differences between sylvan sorcery and Archfey already.

Their subclasses are so similar, I don't have any plans to exclusively lock a subclass to only one class. Perhaps Wild could be locked to Sorcerer, though maybe a chaos patron could bring it over to Occultist. Sea, Stone, and Storm are unique to the Sorcerer, but I could see those 3 becoming Occultist subclasses with the right flavor (which I'm generally bad at writing).

Sorcerers have AC boosts at level 1 whereas Occultists will likely get a few Witchcraft options in their subclasses. Otherwise they'll be the same unless there is a reason for them not to be.

From a design perspective what do you think of modular classes, where instead of a witch or sorcerer there is just a magic-user who selects which mental ability score to use as their spellcasting ability, and then chooses class features at specific levels from a list (sort of like pathfinder 2e class feats, I suppose), maybe with costs associated with them and a certain number of points to spend. This would let someone build whatever they needed mechanically to fit the flavour they wanted, similar to letting every spellcaster choose any theme. I'm not saying you should do this, I'm curious why you don't, as it seems your classes are balanced at each level and mechanically differ by a few key class features. This has allowed me to mix and match subclass abilities to easily make a hybrid subclass with its own flavour to fit the story, but perhaps there is a balance issue I'm not seeing?

I've considering creating a system like you suggest, but it isn't suggestive enough. A gluttony of options like that system would bring would be great for some players, but overwhelming for most.
Mixing and matching should be totally fine.

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I think ~13 damage per mana is good, it otherwise can be a bit too low, especially at first levels when mana is scarce.

Keep in mind it's ~13 after chance to hit/save, so often more like ~20 damage when an attack suceeds, or 17.5 on a save and 8.75 on a failure. I'm mostly inclined to agree though - martials at level 1 are doing 8 and at level 3 are doing 15. 1 mana spells (1st-3rd level) doing 13 seems right. 10 would be too low. 2 mana spells (4th-6th level) doing ~26 is still lower than 28 from a Barbarian at level 5.

But I too have had problems with critical hits from spells, even so with spells that only do damage. The single time a NPC of mine casted Inflict Wounds against a PC, I crossed my fingers for it to not crit and instantaneously kill the character. Really nasty.

I think the problem with critical hits is that, unlike weapons, all damage from spells come from dice, and thus the damage is effectively doubled on a critical hit. A lucky roll of 12d12 at 2 mana can reach 90+ damage at 4th level. That is a lot.
A solution that comes to my mind to keep the base damage stable but lower critical damage is to make damage from attack spells a mix of dice and flat damage. I don't know if that is good design, I can remember only Magic Missile and Disintegrate from RAW that do add flat damage, but it is an option. That would also make attack spells have a higher minimum damage, which I don't think is any better or worse.

I think you've identified a problem of attack spells, ya. Lets put all attack spells on the table to consider:

• Acid Arrow does 5d4 (12.5) and augments by 5d4 (12.5). Could be a concern to do ~25+12.5 next round at 1 mana and ~50+25 next round at 2 mana on a crit.
• Guiding Bolt does 3d10 (16.5) and augments by 3d10 (16.5). Could be a concern to do ~33 at 1 mana and ~66 at 2 mana on a crit.
• Inflict Wounds does 3d12 (19.5) and augments by 3d12 (19.5). Definitely a concern to do ~39 at 1 mana and ~78 at 2 mana on a crit.
• Flame Blade/Shadow Blade do 1 die of damage so crits shouldn't be a concern
• Force Hand (Clenched Fist) - 2 mana repeatable attack that does 2d12 (13) and augments by 1d12 (6.5). Should be fine.
• Ice Knife - 1 mana split between attack and aoe. Attack does 2d8 (9) and augments by 2d8 (9). Should be fine.
• Scorching Ray does 4d6 (14) and augments by 4d6 (14), but with two rays and each augment adding more rays which are all their own attack rolls I don't think crits are an issue.

So I think Acid Arrow, Guiding Bolt, and Inflict Wounds could all use a change.

Inflict Wounds, in 3.5 was actually a Will save with no attack (maybe touch required a touch attack and then a save? crazy). A saving throw could be a more thematic option. Fortitude would be the appropriate save as your flesh is being wounded, not your mind.
Acid Arrow and Guiding Bolt could use some kind of dice+flat damage system as you say.

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Instead of nerfing damage you could require higher damage spells to be touch, low range, done in multiple instances, or some other utility weakener. It is one reason why inflict wounds isn't great in base 5e. A cleric rarely wants to be right next to a minotaur after all.

Adding touch to Inflict wounds doesn't solve the issue - the crit is still just as high, higher actually because it's now a touch spell and needs to compensate for being a touch spell.
And being in touch range can be annoying, but if we're worried about a NPC killing a PC then a durable NPC boss won't be too fussed about entering melee. They likely start in melee already as PCs engage them.