Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

[Marcloure]

Would it be possible to have a Barbarian archetype that got a Beastmaster-style animal companion? Perhaps they could both rage, that kind of thing. What are your thoughts on what would need to be stripped out of the Warrior archetype to balance the addition of animal companion?

i think that is a neat concept. The Naturalist has spells and wild shape, so a full martial beastmaster could make into the game, and the barbarian serves very well to hold that.

[Kryx]

In terms of identity a Naturalist forming a bond with a creature of nature is squarely in their identity.

The Barbarian could have a pet, but they'd have to give up a bit more from the Barbarian Warrior (not much to cut there, really) and we'd have to find a proper identity for that pet that makes it unique from the Naturalist.

[Marcloure]

Question.
Arcane Strike-like features say "The first creature you hit with your weapon is targeted by the spell". Do you also have to hit with the spell attack after the weapon attack, or it not only is target by the spell but also hit by it? And what about saving throw spells?

[Kryx]

Do you also have to hit with the spell attack after the weapon attack, or it not only is target by the spell but also hit by it? And what about saving throw spells?

"targeted by the spell" means follow all the normal rules for the spell. Spell attacks and saving throws still occur.

[Marcloure]

I got another question; this one is out of curiosity.

Is there a particular reason for this rule?

Variant: Skills with Different Abilities. Unused

I know it is probably out of preference, but I would like to know if there is a reason why you don't like it.

I particularly think that letting skill proficiency apply to other abilities under certain situations is a neat feature. To pass unnoticed in a crowd might require a Charisma (Stealth) check instead of Dexterity, and to do Sherlock Holmes stuff to understand what happened in a crime scene might require a Intelligence (Perception) check (instead of the original Investigation).

While there is nothing preventing me from keeping it, and I certainly will, I am curious why you don't use it.

[Kryx]

I'm not hard set on the rule, but in my experience skills using a different ability is almost always born out of an excuse to avoid using low stats.
There can be alternative ways to achieve results, but it often boils down to dex characters wanting to make athletics dex based or strength characters wanting to make acrobatics strength based or strength characters wanting to make intimidate strength based.

Dump stats should have consequences. Allowing players to avoid those dump stats by allowing alternative abilities on skills makes dump stats not matter nearly as much. That's what I want to avoid.


Changed the wording to "Used, but this should not be abused to avoid low ability scores."

[Wherf]

"targeted by the spell" means follow all the normal rules for the spell. Spell attacks and saving throws still occur.

If the spell normally requires an attack roll it works like a smite though? From previous explainations I thought a spell just hit if any spellfused (Arcane Strike and all the other varients) weapon striked the target.

If I used a bonus action to put ray of frost into my halberd I would roll a spell attack after striking with the halberd successfully correct?

[Kryx]

As it currently is balanced any spell used as a "spell strike" functions exactly as it does when cast. So an attack followed by an attack spell would be 2 different attacks.

I'm thinking that my expectation that spells could replace smite-like spells is maybe not the best solution.

My current todos:
1. Rebalance spells with actions as repeats. The previous math made them quite underpowered.
2. Look to have smite type spells separate from actual spells. Each theme would have "spell strike" type options.
3. Consider having to invest in to a theme to cast at higher mana. For example you need 3 points in fire to expend 3 mana on fire spells.
4. Look in to a martial system similar to themes. Have options like archery, scoundrel, warfare, raging, etc. Likely powered by stamina and using the same balance system as the "spell strike" options.
5. Take another look at the alchemist, likely creating an alchemy system that is 60-80% the same as spells, but different enough.

[igorboschetti]

5. Take another look at the alchemist, likely creating an alchemy system that is 60-80% the same as spells, but different enough.

Hey Kryx, i gotta ask this again... previously i asked about the Homunculus's coordinated attack, you answered, but on the website it's still not clear:

Coordinated attack feat
"Your homunculus can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action or use a concoction on your turn."

Interation with magic
"A concoction you learn acts as a spell, except it can be imbibed or thrown as a bomb. Example concoction uses:

an alchemist can throw ray of frost as a bomb at a creature at the normal range of 60 feet."

Also Interatcion with magic:
"Magic term Alchemical term
Spell Concoction
Cantrip Mixture"

i'm still not sure if i should use any mixture with damage, or if has to be an attack mixture (can't use with save based mixture), or if i must use a spell (concoction).

Anyway, sounds crazy that it works with a hand crossbow, but couldn't work with ray of frost for example.

Suggestion:

Coordinated attack:
You and your homunculus form a more potent fighting team. Your homunculus can attack twice, instead of once, whenever he tries to attack an enemy affected or harmed by any of you mixtures or concoctions on your last turn.

If your homunculus uses its action to Dash, it can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack or to shove a creature.

The Homunculus can make three attacks using this features when you reach the 11th level.

Hope you all liked it...

[Marcloure]

As it currently is balanced any spell used as a "spell strike" functions exactly as it does when cast. So an attack followed by an attack spell would be 2 different attacks.

I'm thinking that my expectation that spells could replace smite-like spells is maybe not the best solution.

I like how you can strike a foe with your sword and open a bellow of fire against it and your foes behind, but I agree some spells are just weird to cast like this, that is, mostly defensive and utility spells.

Yet, I think that making a bunch of smite-like spells for each theme can be a dangerous approach. You would need to have a number of it to cover the core types of areas and effects of a theme. Also, the main reason I dislike this design, this kind of spells would only be useful to gish characters and most likely would be obligatory in their list.

It makes some sense in core 5e because only the Paladin has access to smite-like spells, so they don't compete with other spells. I'm not sure about how it would go here.

4. Look in to a martial system similar to themes. Have options like archery, scoundrel, warfare, raging, etc. Likely powered by stamina and using the same balance system as the "spell strike" options.

You need to be careful on the effects this provide, otherwise, you can make it too similar to spells and create one of the greatest complaints people have with 4e: martials do the very same as casters, but at melee range.

[Marcloure]

Coordinated attack feat
"Your homunculus can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action or use a concoction on your turn."

I believe "use a concoction" means any concoction, be it an attack, save or utility one.

[Kryx]

Coordinated attack

Coordinated attack is the exact same for the alchemist as it is for the Summoner or Beastmaster.

Spell version:
Your companion can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action or cast a spell on your turn.

Alchemist version:
Your homunculus can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action or use a concoction on your turn.

A concoction is equivalent to a spell. "Spell" is a term that includes spells that cost mana and spells that don't (cantrips). Similarly the term "concotions" includes concotions that require catalysts and concotions that don't (mixtures).

There is no limit on what type of spell/concotion you cast/use.

======================

Yet, I think that making a bunch of smite-like spells for each theme can be a dangerous approach. You would need to have a number of it to cover the core types of areas and effects of a theme. Also, the main reason I dislike this design, this kind of spells would only be useful to gish characters and most likely would be obligatory in their list them.

I'm still thinking through options. One option would be for appropriate spells to have two versions: The normal spell, and the "spell strike" version. The spell strike version is always a bonus action as it is now, but is properly balanced to be a bonus action. Currently it's balanced to be an action which gives it more damage than it should have.

You need to be careful on the effects this provide, otherwise, you can make it too similar to spells and create one of the greatest complaints people have with 4e: martials do the very same as casters, but at melee range.

Agreed. I've been playing Divinity: Original Sin 2 lately and that has given me some great inspiration. However, as you say, the limits of martial abilities need to be within logical reason. We can bend it a bit maybe, but nothing like spells.
Conjure Barrage from RAW could be an example of an archery type ability. Richocet arrow is another idea. Lightning/Fire arrows will come from a mix of spell/martial. I still need to work out a system for how to advance each martial theme or spell theme.
Maneuvers can largely be compared via my sheet and adjusted. I'll have to do a more thorough analysis than I've currently done on manuevers.

[Kryx]

Version 6.2.0 focuses on website usability and spell balance changes.

[Wherf]

Version 6.2.0 focuses on website usability and spell balance changes.

Awesome! I really like these changes. Vampiric Weapon is my favorite spell here. I've been working on some ideas for Alchemist. I'll post them if my group doesn't have any critiques.

Do you still need someone to go through 'The (not really) Complete Tome of Spells' for recommended spells to add?

[Kryx]

Do you still need someone to go through 'The (not really) Complete Tome of Spells' for recommended spells to add?

I still have the task to Port more spells. I'm at level 3 on Grimlores Grimoire. The Complete Tome of Spells is generally quite bad quality, mainly useful for inspiration more than rules.

Porting spells is tough work and I have to be motivated to do it properly. If someone else wants to tackle it I'd happily review what they come up with.

[Kryx]

Version 6.3.0 is a small change to add a spell and alter some other spells.


Version 6.4.0 is a draft release with a maneuever system for martial combat. Please check it out and provide some feedback before I expand it to more martial themes.

[Marcloure]

Which classes should have access to Maneuvers? The Fighter alone? Or are the barbarian, the rogue and maybe even the monk able to have it? Giving it to all martial classes will require a huge rework on all of them...

About the Maneuvers per se, I see that all of them cost 1 stamina and there are no "cantrip" option. It does make sense to not have cantrips for Maneuvers, but do you plan to add higher cost Maneuvers?

[Kryx]

Which classes should have access to Maneuvers? The Fighter alone? Or are the barbarian, the rogue and maybe even the monk able to have it?

The Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Monk, Ranger, Warden, Paladin, Skald, Magus, and Hexblade. Probably also Beastmaster and Summoner, but we'll see what the end result of the maneuvers are.

Some inspiration pieces: Tome of Battle (google it for the PDF), Spheres of Might, PF Rage Powers, DoS2: Warfare, DoS2: Huntsman, DoS2: Scoundrel

Giving it to all martial classes will require a huge rework on all of them...

I know it'll take some work. Consider having to invest in to a theme to cast at higher mana will tackle progression so characters can mix between spells or maneuvers at their own desires.

About the Maneuvers per se, I see that all of them cost 1 stamina and there are no "cantrip" option. It does make sense to not have cantrips for Maneuvers

Cantrips are primarily for casters to be able to shoot some magic when they run out of resources. Martials have weapons for that purpose so I don't think there is a need for cantrips.

do you plan to add higher cost Maneuvers

Maneuvers are much less complex than spells. Maneuvers generally do some damage and an effect or simply an effect. Spells are higher levels because their effects are deemed too powerful at early levels. If there are maneuvers that have effects that are too powerful at early levels then yes, higher level manuevers will exist.
I'm not sure if maneuvers will cap at 3 or 6 - I'm leaning toward 3, but will make that decision at a later point.

[Marcloure]

About armor. Some time ago, your rules had this armor property "Bulky", which would grant disadvantage on Strength (Athletics) checks. I see you removed it.

I just got curious (again), any reason for the change of mind?

[Kryx]

About armor. Some time ago, your rules had this armor property "Bulky", which would grant disadvantage on Strength (Athletics) checks. I see you removed it.

I just got curious (again), any reason for the change of mind?

Videos of people rolling around and swimming in plate and reading discussions online.

Plus it wasn't worth the effort of a houserule imo.

[Marcloure]

Videos of people rolling around and swimming in plate and reading discussions online.

Yeah, I've seen those too. But I don't think they mean "armor doesn't bother at all". Swimming and jumping in armor, although certainly not impossible, has to be harder than in clothes.

On the other hand, giving disadvantage on Athletics and Stealth checks can be too much punishment for wearing armor. I don't feel like the change is needed, yet I might do it on my own if I conclude to apply it.

[Kryx]

Ya, I can see it being a thing, but the difference may not be enough to account for disadvantage.

Also the idea of punishing martials for armor in one of their best skills is not great from a system design perspective.

It isn't worth a codified houserule. People could choose to use it, but I lean toward it being a bad idea currently.


=====================

The Maneuever system has progressed further, with about 42 maneuevers (~5-10 are duplicates).

Fighters/Rogues/Barbarians will get stamina at the same rate as half casters get mana and can choose which themes best fit them.

I expect Monks to be able to use their ki to power mana or stamina. Other half casters will have to decide on how much mana or stamina they want with a system for that.

Thoughts on how it is looking so far?

[Kryx]

I've added Combat Training to the Fighter. It replaces Combat Superiority with ease.

I've also recalculated all the Fighter's DPR and it's perfectly where I want it to be (very very close to before, but Sword and Board is a viable option now and Archery is much improved).

[Marcloure]

Will there be a limit to known maneuver themes? If yes, it makes sense to limit it to a number below the spell themes limit.

I'm curious to see how the hybrid system will work. Maybe it is better to solve the "spell infused weapon attacks" issue first?

Overall, it looks good so far. I really liked the Claw theme.

[Kryx]

Version 7.0.0 is a draft release of a more solid maneuever system for martial combat. The Fighter, Monk, and Skald use it currently, but it'll be expanded to many more classes as well as expanded in total maneuvers for each theme.

Spell Strikes have been added to spells, and Spell Strike Features have been added to every gish class or archetype.

===============

Maneuever theme limits added to match spell theme limits. I'm likely going to replace that limit once I tackle #218: Consider having to invest in to a theme to cast at higher mana so a character can invest 2 into Warfare and 3 into Fire for example. I'll have to play around with the investment numbers once I get there.

[Wherf]

This looks really really cool. I always thought about Divinity: Original Sin's fighter/warfare classes. It looks good so far, I'll comment if my friends get a chance to play together. I'd love to experiment with some character building.

[tyresias11]

This looks really really cool. I always thought about Divinity: Original Sin's fighter/warfare classes. It looks good so far.

Totally agree. I caught my self revisiting this project that grew to be really fun and well executed.

Especially when Mark mentioned in some comments before that he was considering to go towards that tome of battle path, I was super excited as its one of my favourite and probably one of the most beloved d&d/pathfinder system reimagining overall.

It always helped to bridge the gap between Martials and Casters, while introducing Martials to some really cool and customizable options. And options are always fun. And also one of the major issues Martials always had.
The "grounded" and more "controllable" math of 5e works in favour of the unpredictability maneuvers might bring.
I wholeheartedly think this is a great addition.

I also really like the addition of Spells in the small patch notes. With magic themes allowing for some very strong identity casters rather than generalists, multiple available choices for each theme should be paramount. The minor augment options for various spells is such a good idea to counter the issue with all these fun little spells people feel discouraged to choose due to the spell limit.


This might be a wild shot but, consider a concept of a Binder. It has always been another beloved class with a great mechanical concept and overall identity. It is indeed complex, but hopefully in the future when you are more relaxed. You mentioned earlier that you should be mindful not to burn out, and I hope you still do.


This is such a cool project.

[Kryx]

I'm super happy that you guys like the progress! Thanks for the encouragement!!

Feel free to bring maneuver / maneuver theme ideas to the table as well!

=================

This might be a wild shot but, consider a concept of a Binder. It has always been another beloved class with a great mechanical concept and overall identity. It is indeed complex, but hopefully in the future when you are more relaxed.

Classes are tough to do well. I have suceeded in revamping the Occultist, but honestly have failed with porting the Psionicist and Alchemist. The later two will hopefully be addressed at some point, but I bring them up to show how tough the process can be. I also have desires to make Artificer and Shaman options.

When I build (or rebuild) a class I do a lot of research in to the themes of that class and previous versions ranging from the original to ports of others. It takes a lot of effort. For a class like the Binder who is so unique it's more difficult, compounded by the fact that I've never understood the Binder class. The original printing of the class is ~42 pages long so it's an immense class. There are some efforts to bring it to 5e, but I wouldn't know where to start honestly. It also feels very similar in theme to an Occultist. I think a person more familiar with the source work and concepts could do a much better job. If there is an established 5e version that can be used to convert to my system that would make such a process easier.

Some 5e ports: http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/0...f-binding.html, http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2018/1...rebinding.html, https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/com...ar_of_working/

[Ynar]

Hello there,
nice progress Kryx. Keep it going.

I just had the "time" to look at another theme and will try to give you some ideas on how to add to it.

==================================

Time Theme

Some suggestions on new spells as well as comments on existing ones.

• Spoiler: Sands of Time

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  I dislike the "temporarily aging" part in this. Seems a bit odd on a cantrip. I suggest to change the flavor of this spell to: "Bend Time Flux*": You distort the time around a creature that you can see to rapidly accelerate and decelerate in random patches, tearing its body as it attempts to move through the time flux. The target must make a Fortitude saving throw. On a failed save, the target takes 1d8 necrotic damage and it can't take reactions until the start of its next turn.
  
  
• Spoiler: Rewind*

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  Small idea on a new cantrip revolving around manipulating time around small objects:
  You cause the time around a small object that you can see that weights no more than 5 lb. and is not being worn or carried to reverse in time. Over the course of 6 seconds or until the start of your next turn the object moves backwards in time to a point. As the spell ends the object repeats whatever it did before the spell took effect. If at any point during the rewinding process the object touches a creature the spell ends immediately. Similarly if you cast this cantrip again before the spell ends any ongoing rewind spell you cast previously is immediately cancelled. For example a medaillon thrown of a cliff returns to the thrower following the original trajectory.
  
  When you reach 5th level and again at 11th and 17th level the maximum weight of the object you manipulate increases by 5 lb..
  
  
• Spoiler: Deja Vu

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  I like this spells but it seems to very strong as a save or suck at 1 mana. Maybe I just misinterpret what the spell does. From my current understanding the target takes the same action as last turn but does not necessarily repeat it to 100%. For example a foe that took a dash action to move towards a cliff (but stopped before it) must again take a dash action but may (or may not?) change his direction before falling to his demise. As I read it on the other hand the creature must repeat his attack against a specific target without being able to target a new creature. You should add a sentence to prevent the target from harming itself or clarifying how much control over the new action the creature retains. As needed maybe increase manacost or remove the "doesn't move or take actions this turn".
  
  
• Spoiler: Quicken/Delay

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  Just for clarification: As the initiative is modified at the start of turn any "until your next turn" effects end before the spell takes effect? Additionally if I quicken someone this does nothing during this combat round - it only takes effect the round thereafter. Correct? How does delay work? Does the creature still act even if it is now behind someone else in initiative order? Please clarify in the text. Is there a case where an enemy would prefer not to be quickened or a friend would like to forgo a saving throw and purposefully be delayed? In that case move the saving throw to the bottom of the spell and rephrase to: An unwilling creature may attempt a Fortitude saving throw remain unaffected by spell.
  
  
• Spoiler: Recall Agony

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  Just for clarification: Would a creature that has never suffered any pain be immune to this effect?
  
  
• Spoiler: Delay Pain*

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  New reaction spell
  2 mana
  Concentration, 1min/mana
  With a flash of blue, an enemy's attack appears to pass right through you - that is, until a few minutes later when the harmful effect reappears on you. As a reaction upon being hit by an attack, but before damage is taken, you may choose instead to take no damage. The DM records the amound and type of damage you would have taken. You take this damage immediately when the spell ends or if you lose concentration.
  (if this is collides too much with temporal regression or temporal distortion- consider reflavoring/ replacing any of these possibly)
  
  
• Spoiler: Paradoxical Summons*

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  Very flavorful spell I found recently, worth implementing I guess:
  3 mana / 1 action
  In a moment of need you reach out and find the exact item you need dropped into your hand, sent by your future self. Choose any small or smaller nonmagical object of value 100gp or less. That item instantly appears on your hand or within 5 feet of you. Afterwards, you must then send the item back to yourself in an hour long ritual during a short or long rest (this does not require consumption of a spell slot). You may send back the very same item you reveived if it is still in the same condition you received it; otherwise, you will need to acquire a suitable replacement to send back. You cannot cast Paradoxical Summons again until you have returned any previous outstanding Paradoxical Summons
  
  
• Spoiler: Temporal Regression

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  In my opinion a very powerful spell, especially the +2 mana option. I would consider moving it up to 4 mana (making it 6 mana augmented).
  
  
  
• Spoiler: Time Hop

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  Maybe specify that an unwilling creature may attempt a will saving throw. I see this spell being used on friendly creatures as well. Currently also a friendly creature must attempt a will saving throw.
  
  
  
• Spoiler: Temporal Bubble

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  This spell is too price imho. There are so many cool 6 mana time effects possible, that this pales in comparison.
  I suggest moving this down 1 mana and adding another spell at 6 mana such as: "Skip day", "Aging" or "Waypoint" as described below
  
  
  
• Spoiler: Skip Day

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  from the (not really) complete tome of spells
  6 mana
  You and up to 8 others within range are instantly transported 24 hours into the future. Unwilling people may make a Will saving throw to resist. To outsiders, it appears that you simply disappear.
  
  You appear in the exact spot from which disappeared (don’t take planetary rotation into account). If there is something in that spot, you appear within 5 feet of it. There is no guarantee that this area will be any safer than the one you left.
  
  
• Spoiler: Aging

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  from the (not really) complete tome of spells
  6 mana
  A sickly gray bolt of energy shoots out from your outstretched hand towards a creature within range. A creature that doesn’t age or is immortal is immune to this spell. Make a ranged spell attack. On a hit, the target must make a Fortitude saving throw. The target takes 6d10 necrotic damage and instantly ages that many years on a failed saving throw, or half as much damage and years on a successful one. In either case, the creature is also knocked unconscious for 1 minute. If the target dies from this damage, it is considered to have died of old age and can only be brought back through a wish.
  
  The aging is permanent unless reversed with a greater restoration spell. The aging has no game affects unless the DM determines that the target has been pushed into extreme old age. In that case, the creature takes one level of exhaustion, which cannot be removed unless the spell is reversed.
  
  
• Spoiler: Waypoint*

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  6 mana, an ornately carved, mastercraft stake costing at least 5000 gp
  You pound an ornate stake into the ground, magically anchoring your presence and the presence of up to 8 willing creatures to a specific fork in the current timeline. For the next 24 hours, you may return in time to this waypoint, undoing everything that had happened in the intervening time and leaving you and others affected by the spell with only memories to show for the undone time. You may dictate during casting the conditions of your return (common choices include death, failure of an objective, or a spoken passphrase). Returning to the waypoint consumes the stake. After casting a waypoint, that portion of the timeline is temporally locked, no other waypoints from any source may be placed within 24 hours in either direction of time

Spells denoted with an asterix (*) do not originate from me. The creator of these spells is "Andoman36" to be found in a document in the unearthed arcane subreddit named Chronomancy Spells: Part two (I cannot post an url by forum rules). The post is called "time, and time again! More chronomancy spells.

Hope this helps,
Ynar

[Kryx]

Thanks for another theme deep dive Ynar!

I saw that same post and picked a few ideas, but many of the spells were not time spells, but actually divination or other themes disguised as time.

• Sands of Time, Deja Vu, Quicken/Delay, and Time Hop have been modified/clarified. Rapid Aging and Temporal Progression have been added See the Changelog.
• What is the purpose of Rewind? To give someone a handful of gold and then take it back? This doesn't feel like a time spell, but could fit Teleportation if there is such a need. It doesn't feel veery useful though.
• Recall Agony: If such a creature exists you could flavor it for future wounds that you're about to inflict. Or the GM can determine that it's not an appropriate target.
• Delay Pain feels needlessly heavy to track. It's basically a temporary heal with extra bookkeeping to remember it. I can imagine this being forgotten far too often that I'd say it's not a great design. Temporarl Distortion fills the niche of defense pretty well I think.
• Paradoxical Summons is basically the same thing as Instant Summons, but you have to go drop it off in the future instead of finding it in the past. However I'm worried about the actual play of such a spell in that a player now has a huge plethora of options leading to decision paralysis leading to slowing down the game. They mgiht for example crack open a book looking for any item that can possibly solve their current situation. Maybe they spend 5 mins in the DMG looking for an item. Such an idea worries me.
• Temporal Regression: A 3 mana spell can heal a character for 40 damage. There may be some scenarios where resetting damage/conditions on you is more valuable than that, but I don't necessarily expect them to be common. Resetting the whole area though should indeed cost 6 mana and I've changed the augment to 3+3.
• Temporal bubble is a dangerous spell to move to a lower mana tier. 6 mana prevents it from being cast multiple times a day which leads to infinite days. There could also be plenty of other reasons to slow time. For example you could build an item, study a book, perform a long ritual, etc.
• Waypoint: This spell is farrrrrr more powerful than Temporal Regression augmented to 6 mana. It's basically a save in a video game. I don't think it's a good idea to allow characters to try boss fights multiple times as long as they can spend 5000 sp