Structural Class Changes (Mana, Talents, Clear gish structure)

[Golagar]

This is not exclusive to this system, but since the question was raised in a game in this system, I figured I'd ask here

The char was concentrating in flame weapon spell, and was in melee. In the description it says the caster can end the spell and have it explode with an action. Can the caster ready a reaction to explode the spell if he is hit by an attack and explode it before he makes a concentration check? I ruled he could not, and thus had to make the concentration check or loose it before he could "overcharge it".
He ended up succeding the check and exploding it anyway. How would you rule it in this specific case. And in a broader case, can you ready a reaction to "when I get hit" and make the reaction before any effect (be it concentration check, conditions or even taking damage)?

Sorry if it is kinda off-topic for this thread

[Marcloure]

[...] Can you ready a reaction to "when I get hit" and make the reaction before any effect (be it concentration check, conditions or even taking damage)?

The questions here are: a) can you ready an action that does stuff and then ends concentration? b) ready actions happen before or after the trigger?

The answer to those questions are: a) you can ready any action, so yes. b) XGtE tells us that "the reaction happens after its trigger completes, unless the description of the reaction explicitly says otherwise".

That is, if you ready an action to go off when you get hit, it is after you get hit. Now, can a player make the trigger like "when I get hit, but before taking any damage, ..."? That is up to what the DM judges reasonable. Particularly, I would say no, but there is nothing wrong in doing otherwise.

[Golagar]

The main question, I think, is if the damage is part of the hit or not, and if any other condition is part of the hit or if it can be separated in steps. For example in a tripping maneuver, can I ready an action to trigger after the hit, but before I get knocked prone? Can I disjoint the hit and stuff like damage, push, knock prone, poison, etc?

[Kryx]

Using an Action to ready a reaction to expend in the case you are hit would be a bad choice anyway. Imagine you do so and then aren't hit: you've just spent the round doing nothing. Might as well explode it right away or ready when a certain monster gets within range.

Regarding breaking up components of an attack: I wouldn't allow such a miniscule breakdown. 5e has some basic rules here that I'd try to follow.

[Kryx]

Then it only leaves the size.

If you'd still like to address this issue please open an issue on the issue tracker or I'll lose it here.

imagining all the possibilities Blood theme is really interesting!

Robert opened an issue with some great ideas: https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...d-theme-spells. I'll go through them when I get a chance.

I think the new Perk Blood Fuel/Magic is a little strong (especially at high levels). I'd suggest having the augment only improve the spell by 1 manage in exchange for two hit dice. Pricey, but still a good perk I think. I haven't done any statistics though!

Characters get all their hit dice per long rest. If a character never uses their hit dice to recover (ie: they never get hit) then they could spend them all on mana. That'd be 5 extra mana per long rest at level 5. A full caster gets 10*(2.5-3) = 25-30 mana. This would make it 30-35 at the cost of all their hit dice. A half caster gets 12.5-15, so 17.5-20, but they are on the frontline so definitely need their hit dice.

I think it's much less valuable than you think. Nice, but not OP as far as I can see.

[Golagar]

If you'd still like to address this issue please open an issue on the issue tracker or I'll lose it here

I think I'll drop this issue. I figure the thing that I envision is very similar (almost the same thing) as the polymorph spell. I think I'll figure a way of giving the alteration theme or this spell to my druids and be done with it. No need to make it more complicated than it needs too.

I also have some issues with the animal companion perk, I will elaborate on it latter today.

[Wherf]

Characters get all their hit dice per long rest. If a character never uses their hit dice to recover (ie: they never get hit) then they could spend them all on mana. That'd be 5 extra mana per long rest at level 5. A full caster gets 10*(2.5-3) = 25-30 mana. This would make it 30-35 at the cost of all their hit dice. A half caster gets 12.5-15, so 17.5-20, but they are on the frontline so definitely need their hit dice.

I think it's much less valuable than you think. Nice, but not OP as far as I can see.

I think augmenting Healing Spells like cure wounds really help mitigate any loss of healing. Especially considering you get mana back on a short rest. I think its cost is insignificant compared to the benefit if you have any healing or potions. I would consider lowering it to 1 mana augment- but I think I'll test it with a few more builds and make a ticket/issue if I discover a crazy combo!

[Golagar]

It's no so much of an issue as a doubt and maybe a suggestion. I saw that the companion starts with 2 mana augments on the site, although half casters (in my case I'm interested in ranger) can't have 2 energy until lvl 5. Is this on purpose? Do half caster need to wait until lvl 6 (2nd perk) to grab companion if they want it? Perhaps it would be a good idea to make a 1 mana companion.

Now one other suggestion is that whenever I level up I choose how much energy I can put into the companion. Maybe I don't want to have a super buffed companion and want to augment it only up to 3 energy, even at later levels. I can make that suggestion on the tracker if you like it better.

[Kryx]

I think I may completely change how companions are done again (more base forms).

https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...-forms-further is the issue for companions being improved.

The issue tracker is much easier for me to keep track of specific conversations and specific issues than here. Here is more of an open discussion that items can get lost in.

[Kryx]

I think augmenting Healing Spells like cure wounds really help mitigate any loss of healing.

True, 1 Hit Dice = 6d6. That's a problem.

I've opened https://bitbucket.org/mlenser/tablet...aling-magic-is to investigate options. I may just not allow it to be used on spells that heal.

[Marcloure]

I think I may completely change how companions are done again (more base forms).

Just out of curiosity, are you thinking of removing it from being a Perk, or just redo the table/progression system?

[Kryx]

Maybe some forms like Circle of the Wild from Alpha Druid (page 18-21)

[Golagar]

Maybe some forms like Circle of the Wild from Alpha Druid (page 18-21)

Love the article and I think the author have very good ideas, I will sure give my 2 cents on the issue tracker on the matter. I would really love to have all his 5 "templates" or something similar introduced here.

Just a question though, I couldn't not notice it, his companions have 2 hit die, and since he gets his wild shape at lvl 2 it seems fair. But in your version all forms have 6 hit die at start (2 energy). The progression seems fine (he gets 1 HD every level and you get 2 HD at each energy invested) but is there a particular reason why your companion starts with 6 HD when you can pick up the perk at lvl 3 and invest 2 energy on it?

[Golagar]

One question regarding a specific spell.

Mana Burn: What happens if I use this spell against someone who does not have mana or who has 0 mana (depleted) ?
I would suggest half damage on a failed save, none if successful. I didnt see anything in this regard in the spell description

I will look into all spells and would like to know if it will be more helpful for me to post these things (suggestion for clarity of text in the spells, mostly) here or to open an issue tracker.

[Kryx]

Mana Burn: What happens if I use this spell against someone who does not have mana or who has 0 mana (depleted) ?

Absolutely nothing

I will look into all spells and would like to know if it will be more helpful for me to post these things (suggestion for clarity of text in the spells, mostly) here or to open an issue tracker.

Small questions like above can belong here. Suggestions/longer, more detailed questions that require more discussion are much easier for me to tackle on the tracker.

[Golagar]

I really like the Bloodlust (new?) spell, but in my opinion, other than the name, it does not have much to do with blood. I think it fits more in the charm or mind theme. Since the Blood theme apparently needs a few extra spells, I am OK with it being there, but what about adding the spell to either the Mind or Charm Theme as well?

I put both options (mind and charm) 'cause I am not 100% sure of the main difference between the two. I remember something about one of them (Mind perhaps) being more focused on overcoming the targets will, and the other one only messing with it's mind. What distinction did you make when designing the two themes?

Now, I would also like to suggest the addition of the Haste/Slow spell to the Blood theme. I think it fits nicely (specially slow, but haste as well) as the caster slowing or accelerating the blood flow in someone else's body.

[Kryx]

Crown of Madness, it's mechanical sibling, is part of the fear theme.

It does not fit the mind theme - Crown of Madness and Bloodlust both exploit emotions, not the mind. Charm and Fear are split in a similar way that Persuasion and Intimidation are split in that fear is bending people to your will while charm is more subtle.

Charm: Charm someone, put them to sleep, or alter their behavior
Fear: Frighten the creature, overwhelm with emotion, etc
Mind: Control somone's mind, thoughts, etc

Now that I look around I see several similar spells: Mindless Bloodlust (Fear), Crown of Madness (Fear), Incite Passion (Charm). I'll look to refine some of these into a more consistent behavior.

[Golagar]

Sorry, I edited an old post, im not sure if you saw my addition, I will post again below

I would also like to suggest the addition of the Haste/Slow spell to the Blood theme. I think it fits nicely (specially slow, but haste as well) as the caster slowing or accelerating the blood flow in someone else's body. Maybe its better to write another spell with similar effect, since this one needs to have the restriction to creatures with blood. Other things to differentiate could be added as well.

[Kryx]

I don't see Haste/Slow as a Blood spell. Cold Snap is part of the Ice theme for Slow, but "slow blood" doesn't have the same thematic basis nor do I think it'd be as impactful.

[Golagar]

I don't see Haste/Slow as a Blood spell. Cold Snap is part of the Ice theme for Slow, but "slow blood" doesn't have the same thematic basis nor do I think it'd be as impactful.

I was following the lead of binding blood, if it could paralyze someone, it could certainly slow them down (I agree that haste someone is a little bit of a stretch).
Besides, I was thinking of maybe giving haste/slow to more casters without them needing to blow up a perk for it. Perhaps Alteration theme would qualify better for Slow/Haste? Manipulating metabolism instead of time. I'm no caster but it looks.easier to manipulate someone's body than time itself 😅

[Kryx]

I was thinking of maybe giving haste/slow to more casters without them needing to blow up a perk for it.

I assume you mean the Wizard here. I think this is the wrong approach. The Mage now has its list which is purposefully different from the RAW list. It has built in mechanics which allow it to go outside of its default lists in several ways. That's exactly what the mage is: a character who studies other specific areas.

A spell should only be on themes where it fits, not added to themes to make it more accessible to certain characters.

[Golagar]

A spell should only be on themes where it fits, not added to themes to make it more accessible to certain characters.

Certainly agree with you here, but I fail to see the direction you took designing the themes. You say you should not add spells to themes where it doesn't fit just to make it accessible. Well, I see 8 instances of the classic mage armor spell across themes. I don't say I find them all unfitting (although air armor and shadow armor? Common...) but it is a little inconsistent with what you said above.

To summarize, you either want a caster to learn a new theme for a specific effect or you create a bunch of copies of a classic spell for the different themes. Both paths are valid, but you gotta be consistent.

Hope it doesn't sound like an angry critic from my side. I love designing spells and I would like to contribute, but I have to understand your logic here.

[Kryx]

Similar spells/reflavored spells aren't a problem, as long as they match the thematics. Similar spells shouldn't necessarily be the goal, but especially for basic things like +AC, temporary +AC, weapon buff, etc easily matches many themes.

I've adjusted both Shadow and Air spells to be more thematic or replace them with other options (See the changelog).

[Golagar]

Really like the seeking strike spell, but I think there is something wrong with the mechanic. You can't normally use a reaction in your turn (as far as I can tell) and if you make an attack outside of your turn, you use your reaction to do so, and can't cast the spell. The idea is great, but I think you should make it so it uses a bonus action to cast if you miss with an attack on your turn. Unless you want to make it so the caster can buff a missed attack from an ally, but I honestly prefer the to spell salvage a missed attack from the caster

That said, I think half damage on a save is kinda weird on a weapon attack.

[Marcloure]

You can use your reaction in your own turn. For instance, you can cast shield on an opportunity attack you trigger. Now, I am not sure why some spells and maneuvers (like Precision) use a reaction "when you make an attack" instead of a bonus action.

[Golagar]

Didnt think of reaction to OAs, in theory you are right, although a "reaction to reaction" seems a bit much. I mean how fast you need to be to react to someone reacting to you?

That aside, I still think you should use a bonus action in this spell. It seems weird to react to a missed attack. You don't 'react to your own action, you just take another action.

[Golagar]

Can someone please post the link of the spell balance spreadsheet (I think I've seen it somewhere). I believe the spells were carefully balanced against each other, but I am having some trouble seeing how the inflict wounds spell (4d6/mana) is balanced against the others.

On the same topic, did the spells overall have a buff (both in damage and in healing) compared to RAW? I didn't compare exactly spell to spell, but my feel is that there was a buff at conversion. Should I adapt encounter building from RAW to the current system to try to counterbalance this? Does the monster conversion account for that?

Edit: Nevermind, found the spreadsheet, clarification on the matter is still welcome...

[Marcloure]

The avarage of 4d6 (14) is actually lower than RAW 3d10 (16.5). Also, inflict wounds can no longer crit, but it has range of 30 ft. OK, half on save more than compensates for all of that, but RAW inflict wounds is often considered an spell not worth the slot (compare it with attack+divine smite, or guiding bolt, for instance).

The spell progresses way better here, as the linear spell augmentation desires (using a 1 mana spell with 2 mana should be as powerful as using a 2 mana spell).

Now, the spells are all balanced against the expected damage per level from DMG. That means some (mostly single target spells) are better, some are worse (fireball is the obvious one). Should you adjust encounter building? I did not, and it works pretty good. Mana is a very limiting factor. I would just advice you to, more than ever, not do a single enemy combat past level 5.

[Kryx]

Seeking Strike changed to a bonus action and damage adjusted to be higher with no save for half
An issue would be easier to track these things.

Reaction still makes sense for cases where the roll can (and should) be altered after the roll has been made (Second Chance in the Fate theme, Precision in Archery/Warfare).

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Theme Balance

Marcloure covered the basics.

[Golagar]

Seeking Strike changed to a bonus action and damage adjusted to be higher with no save for half
An issue would be easier to track these things.

Great change to seeking strike, now it reads like you don't actually need to make the ranged attack, not even see it, just know that it is there. This raises the question though: what if the creature is no longer a valid target? (Teleported or just moved out of range, phased, invisible, etc) the spell would likely fail, but does the caster know the target is gone?

I want to suggest also that when a new spell is created, you would create an issue in the issue tracker and link it here. It might sound lazy of me to ask that, but I often forget to use that tool.