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2018-08-20, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
SpoilerNot that that happens all that often mind you. Until the competent bad guys show up. It gets pretty well established that most of the military leaders of Randland... aren't exactly the most tactically inclined bunch. Even when you leave out the sabotage via incompetence.
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2018-08-21, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-08-21, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
They are indeed fast (they are not gonna outrun a horse in the sprint and are not depicted as such), but more importantly they have endurance. Which is an established fact IRL, humans are super endurance runners. The only animal we have found that can even keep up were the dogs. It's not possible to run a horse with a man on back for nearly as fast and as long as a well trained runner can.
You break in a horse by following it around until it's exahusted and put a saddle on, and then waiting again for it to run out of steam before riding.
And they are at a disadvantage agaisnt heavy infantry. Nobody fields much of it though and even less of it competently lead. Warfare in the Westlands follows mostly a noble retinues of horsemen hack at each others for a bit.
The Aiel are fast and well trained enough that they work abit like cavalry. Over long distances they are going to be better. The other reason I chose Mongols is because the Aiel can in a similar way disperse and regroup with great strategic accuracy. Some of that is magic, but they have
Again, within the frames of reference of the story the Aiel work reasonably enough. They'd not be as scary in the real world, but then they aren't meeting a lot of RL resistence either.
As been mentioned the majority of military command is downright incompetent.
SpoilerA human sprinter can match a horse at the gallop. Over a medium stretch the horse has the edge. But at long distances humans win over horses due to better staminaLast edited by snowblizz; 2018-08-21 at 04:02 AM.
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2018-08-21, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Spoiler: Aiel
I don't remember Aiel ever facing down a cavalry charge, the battles we see them in are more of a 'small groups spread out over miles' type than standing in large formations.
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2018-08-21, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
SpoilerJordan has no idea how tactics work, and his battles tend to be very silly as a result. I just pretended that it was being described by people who don't know what is happening, which is why the army descriptions are so weird.
So the Aiel weren't OP for the reasons people attribute to them, they used entirely different and better tactics that onlookers don't understand.
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2018-08-21, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
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2018-08-21, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
SpoilerI always figured that the terrible tactics displayed by most of the Randlandians was because the bulk of them were chosen for their lineage, connections, or their skills at Daes Dae'mar rather than military ability. Most of the places that actually promote based on competence tend to be significantly better managed.
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2018-08-21, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Remember that Pedron Niall was one of the Great Captains in Randland, and he considered Geofram Bornhald to be a very competent Battle Commander. So it seems that there is a huge drop from Great Captain to Mediocre Captain in Randland. Too many generals consider heavy cavalry and shock combat to be the be-all and end-all of military tactics.
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2018-08-21, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
To be fair, what was Bornhald supposed to do against an army of damane? That's like sending a guy with a medium-sized stick to fight a nuclear bomb.
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2018-08-21, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
I get your point, but basically anything would be better than charging them on an open field. Bornhald was probably actually competent at managing a straightforward battle, but his "honour" basically restricts him from using the kind of hit and run guerrilla tactics you'd need to fight an enemy like that.
You have to remember that for most of the books the "armies" that we're dealing with are untrained and untested with commanders who have never actually commanded anything larger than a skirmish. There's a reason that the Borderlanders consider the Southlanders to be soft. You'll also notice that the southerners get more competent as the story progresses due to acquiring experience and having incompetent commanders weed themselves out. At this point of the story they come off as a bunch of untrained militia led by nobles who have never commanded an army, because that's exactly what they are.
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2018-08-21, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
You also have to remember that he had been stuffed around for months by the Questioners and only had half his legion.
If they had gone straight to Falme like he wanted, they might have been able to force the Seanchan out before they could build up their numbers.
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2018-08-21, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Hindsight is easy. You have to fight the battle in front of you, not the one you want to have. Guerrila warfare isn't a question of flicking a switch, it takes time, training, and planning to organise.
Bornhald knew almost nothing about the Seanchan. He knows there are some kind of invaders, and that Carridin is deliberately ignoring them, so he takes his legion to investigate, and comes across a far stronger force than he could have reasonably expected. But by then it's too late to escape, so he takes the option he has.
Large scale battle using the OP hasn't happened in centuries, any that happened would've been along the lines of '6 Aes Sedai v False Dragon.' He doesn't even know damane are a thing, how's he supposed to be prepared for it?
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2018-08-21, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
(Not spoilered as it's about the author by this point)
As well as being a historian, Jordan was also a military vet (two tours in Vietnam). Honestly, as far as tactics and military knowledge goes, I'd say that Robert Jordan does it better than 99% of the fantasy authors out there. Only one I can think of who's better would be Bernard Cornwell, who's really more of a historical novelist than a fantasy writer anyway (though if you like military fantasy, you'll probably like his historical novels too).
Part of the reason the Aiel seem so overpowered in the first few books is because they're going up against opponents who are poorly trained, poorly organised, and usually divided. The Aiel are definitely very good, but it's also a case of their opponents being bad. You can probably guess that this doesn't stay true forever.
Spoiler: Actual spoilersOnce they start going up against competently led, combined-arms forces, the Aiel lose their aura of invincibility pretty damn quick. They lose hard at Dumai's Wells, and they lose REALLY hard against the Seanchan in Aviendha's visions.Last edited by Saph; 2018-08-21 at 06:16 PM.
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2018-08-21, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
And therein lies the problem. The Aiel have tons of faults, but because most of the
maincharacters have such respect for them they almost never get called out for said flaws. The Aiel War is a great non-spoiler example. In the past the Aiel gave the Cairhien royal family a sapling from their sacred tree. 400 years later the then current king of Cairhien cut it down to make a throne. Obviously a dumb and insensitive move. The Aiel response was to send in an armed force to rampage through the country side on their way to kill the Cairhien king. Putting aside whether or not the king deserved to die for cutting down the tree, his subjects certainly didn't deserve to die. To make matters worse the Aiel didn't limit themselves to Cairhien, they invaded other countries as well. Keep in mind the Aiel are more than capable of engaging in silent infiltration and assassination. They choose to kill innocent people in mass. And yet if memory serves, every time the war is brought up the characters act like the Aiel were blameless and it was all the kings fault. That is a startling amount of slack to give the Aiel.
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2018-08-21, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-08-21, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
That's because you can't argue with Aielves.
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2018-08-22, 02:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
If only the Aiel had talked about their feelings and wants and needs beforehand. ;)
In all fairness, it is actually called out that they were following Laman around. Without checking a map there's no other country really invaded either. They attack Cairhien, sack the city and follow Laman north. All that space up to Tar Valon is "empty". I'm willing to admit that they could well have piled into Andor and... Ghealdhan? Far Madding? a bit but they weren't randomly invading. They were hunting Laman.
Obviously this honour thing (that they don't bother explaining to Wetlanders yet expect them to follow) screws them and others royally. Matters of "deserve" are tricky, did civillians deserve to die in various WW2 nations? From the Aiel perspective at least the Cairhieni were all culpable for the most heinous act imaginable.
Ultimately, are anyone to blame? What happened happenedSpoilerso Rand could be born on Dragonmount
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2018-08-22, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
You're right that we don't know the exact movement of the Aiel force but we do know that ten countries united against the Aiel to form the Great Coalition. Whatever the Aiel were doing it was enough to convince ten different countries that they were in real danger. Real enough danger to align themselves with, among others, the Children of Light.
However, I disagree with the statement that they expect others to follow their honour system. After all they refuse to take Wetlanders as Gai'shain explicitly because they know the Wetlanders don't follow their honour system. The problem isn't that they assume everyone understands their honour system. The problem is they assume their honour system is always right and never question it. This alone wouldn't make them unique among Wheel of Time cultures and organizations but unlike the Aes Sedai, Seanchan, Children of Light, etc. no one really calls them out for their flaws. The plot and world building certainly shine a light on their flaws but the characters, especially the Aiel themselves, never acknowledge them. Because you can't argue with Aielves.
Spoiler: Super Late Series SpoilersEventually there are hints that Aviendha has begun to question their honour system after her visions of the future reveal that the Aiel's insistence on war for the sake of honour results in the Seanchan all but obliterating them but we never see it get past anything other than brief ponderings.
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2018-08-22, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Spoiler: Late book spoilersIt's not explicit, but I felt like some of the later Shaido plotline was intended as... not exactly a condemnation of Aiel culture, but certainly a way of showing how it can go horribly wrong. Mostly the character Therava, honestly. The Shaido were portrayed as the shifty, 'dishonorable' clan pretty much from the moment they were introduced, which isn't really a critique - it just means there are dark Aielves, so to speak. Sevanna in particular is meant to be a 'fallen' Aiel, eschewing Aiel traditions in favor of wetlander ways* and leading the rest of them further and further astray.
*specifically, the ways of the worst sort of wetlander aristocrat.
But Therava is often presented as Sevanna's counterpart; she's much more of a traditionalist... and if anything, she's even more horrifying as a person. It's been a while since I've read the books, so I can't go into much detail, but a lot of her attitudes seemed perfectly in-line with traditional Aiel values. Total disregard for outsiders, especially wetlanders? Sure. (The heroic Aiel all show some empathy for outsiders, but this is not something their culture thinks is mandatory.) Willingness to inflict pain to make a point, or settle a matter of honor? Absolutely. (This is something the heroic Aiel do too, albeit not quite as enthusiastically.) Fearless, blunt and uncompromising? Check. Ironclad loyalty to clan? Yep.
Basically, the Aiel seem to consider harshness a virtue, and Therava demonstrates that this is not always the case.Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2018-08-22, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Spoiler: Middle and late book spoilers for the AielThere's actually a ton of characters acknowledging how crazy the Aiel are in the middle books. Rand basically thinks how crazy they are every time he interacts with them (which is a lot). Mat tells them their crazy and tries to get as far away from them (and Rand) as possible. There's a whole arc with the Shaido about Aiel culture gone wrong.
Egwene is really the only non-Aiel protagonist who doesn't think they're insane, and do you really want to trust her judgement for anything?
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2018-08-22, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Spoiler: AielThe whole point of the Aiel is to be the army of the Dragon for Tarmon G'aidan. Once they lose their purpose, they splinter. Until the new Dragon's Peace gives them a new one.
Cairhien is closely tied to Andor, which dragged them in, which dragged in Murandy. Shienar seems to have assumed it was some kind of trick from the Shadow. The rest of the participants are small nations that stand to gain political influence. The ones I can't explain are Illian and Tear.
Competent commanders scout ahead and prepare for their enemies.
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2018-08-22, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
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2018-08-22, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Spoiler: General SpoilersYeah, but when someone calls the Aiel crazy it's almost always them commenting on bizarre but ultimately harmless culture differences, like how open they are with sex and polyamory. The actual bad stuff, like their perpetual clan wars, their general attitude of superiority, and the fact that they'll do truly terrible things for their honor never really gets addressed by characters. I agree with the Shaido part though. That was one of the things I was thinking of when I said the plot shines a light on their faults. But once again, none of the characters acknowledge this. No one asks, 'Hey, do you think it's a bad sign that violence is so foundational to our society that literally thousands of Aiel melted down when they were told that thousands of years ago the Aiel were pacifists?' They still act and are treated as though their culture is unimpeachable.
Also while i have no problems believing that the other countries may have had less than stellar reasons for joining the Aiel War that doesn't change the fact that the Aiel still choose to kill thousands of innocent people from Cairhien over a personal insult from their king.Last edited by Flying Turtle; 2018-08-22 at 07:03 PM.
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2018-08-22, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
SpoilerIt wasnt about the violence being important to them, it was learning they were basically a race of oathbreakers. IIRC they were strict pacifists back in the day and had vowed to be such, and now they finally understand that and considering how important honor is to them, no wonder large amounts couldnt hack it. Thats why only the chiefs and wise ones were supposed to know that in the first place. Because they KNEW many wouldnt be able to handle that knowledge."Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2018-08-22, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-09-05, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
1) Will AES actually finish the series?
1b) Corollary: If he will then when?
Spoiler: Bets on AESSo I have a couple bets I wanna get to ahead of time.
2) What do you think his opinion on Cadsuane will be? Will he love her as a necessary literary device like some? A strong and well rounded character? Or will he hate her as another arrogant Aes Sedai?
3) What do you think he'll think of post Dumai's Well' s Rand? Post Semiherage (You know the scene). Discuss.
The first is tongue in cheek. I can't figure out how to blue text on mobile.Last edited by Sivarias; 2018-09-12 at 11:17 AM.
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2018-09-27, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Chapter 36: Daughter of the Night
Perrin goes to bed and in his dream he finds Hopper. Upon seeing the wolf Perrin can immediately tell that it wants him to follow, and Hopper leads him through thick fog to a place with no walls or floor, in which a seemingly endless expanse of mirrors hang in midair. In a clear place directly below him, Perrin sees other dreamers, people dressed in an array of clothes up and down the social ladder, and a man all in black who seems to be cloaked in shadow despite the light around them.
Three men are ask why they have come to this place. One had fallen asleep in Tar Valon, one in Tear, and one in Illian. The man in black tells them to be silent and Perrin immediately recognizes him as Ba'alzamon. Ba'alzamon says that they've been given tasks, and some have succeeded while others have failed, and it's time to pay the piper. The one in Tar Valon allowed "the boy"(Mat) to escape the city, so The Dark One points his finger at him and the man dematerializes into mist and then nothing. Whether his soul has been destroyed or taken to some horrible eternal punishment I don't know, but it does reiterate my idea that serving the Dark One seems to be job with very few benefits and many many downsides.
Selene appears at Ba'alzamon's side. A throne appears behind her and she sits down on it. "You make free use of my domain." she says. Ba'alzamon takes offense at this and reminds her who her boss is. She says that she's been stuck in a endless sleep for thousands of years and now she's going to do as she pleases with her gifts, and who is Ba'alzamon to give her grief? What's he accomplished in the last three millennia but corrupting some nobles into joining his little club? It's becoming clear to me from this conversation that the Ba'alzamon we see here isn't the real Shai Tan, probably a Forsaken using his guise, and since this book is heading towards Tear, I'm guessing it's this "Lord Samon" we've been hearing about. He reminds Lanfear(as he openly calls her to Perrin's horror) that she signed up for life and disobedience means eternal torment, so she affirms her loyalty to the Great Lord of the Dark and no other, the "no other" here clearly directed at the fake Ba'alzamon.
A wave of blackness rolls over the scene and soon Ba'alzamon and Lanfear and all the mirrors are gone and Perrin and Hopper are left all alone. They leave the fog and walk out onto a grassy hillside under a sunny sky. perrin asks why Hopper showed him this, and Hopper says(thinks anyway, he's not a talking wolf) that Perrin needed to see it and he needs to understand the danger he is in. Perrin brings up the fact that Hopper is dead, so why does he keep showing up and Hopper tells him that all wolves end up here and here he can fly like an eagle.
Perrin sees a new sight now, of Rand surrounded by Myrddral and people who sowly walk toward him as if asleep, and one by one he kills them, with fire and lightning and white hot steel, until they are all dead. Rand sinks to his knees in exhaustion even as more assailants come over the hill. Perrin shouts to warn him and Rand turns his angry gaze on him, and Perrin is blasted by a flash of light.
He wakes up groaning. The last thing you want after days of very little sleep is to finally crawl into bed and find yourself embroiled in evil schemes and blasted by your best friend, so it's an unpleasant awakening to say the least. Perrin decides that this is the sort of thing Morraine should hear about. Characters telling each other important information instead of keeping everything secret? I must have picked up the wrong book!
He finds her and tells her everything he saw. Moraine says that there are Aes Sedai who would try to gentle him if they heard what she had just, though he has no ability to channel. She has no intention to alter their current plans based on this information and gets peeved when Perrin questions her on it.
We cut to Rand waking from an exhausted sleep and realizing that he had just blasted Perrin with lightning so he'd better be more careful next time he sees his friends in a magical dream. Life advice you should all take. His little campsite is approached by a party on horseback, what appears to be a merchant woman and her armed guards. She asks to share his campsite and he answers by beheading her with a sword of pure fire and cuts through the startled men before they know what's hit them. It doesn't actually say if these people were Darkfriends or not so... Rand may have just murdered innocent people for he knows. He tells himself that if he's the Dragon then this is how it was meant to be and he mounts the woman's horse and rides off.
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2018-09-27, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
That bit with Rand is a bit troublesome (either he saw something in the dream to make him think assassins were coming, or he slaughtered innocents as part of his threatened madness), but there is one hint that they were assassins.
Frowning, he peered at the line. He had been sure that there were only ten men, but eleven men knelt in that line, one of them without armor of any sort but with a dagger still gripped in his hand.
This is clearly a Grey Man. It is possible that he was just a tagalong with a legitimate merchants, but it is also possible that the intention was for him to strike while Rand was distracted by the others earnestly attempting to kill him.
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2018-09-27, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
Good catch. I'd forgotten about the Grey Men, which means they're doing their job.
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2018-09-27, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower
The start of a whole new epoch of honesty! … Do you the AES believed that?
Note to Wheel of Time characters; do not murder friends in magical dreams. Advice may be much more relevant than it immediately appears.
It's interesting how easily they slide into description text when there's no line break indicating that you should be paying attention to a new detail. Just in mid dress discussion a man stabs you and there's a guy doing something in the background suddenly and none of the characters notice; people's reading habits feed into not noticing as you build recognition of incoming blocks of text and sort of mentally glaze over them. It's even worse if you're not really reading every line because then you have to rewind to find out when he entered the scene, or leaves it, rather than when the characters figure it out. It's one of the areas that Sanderson kind of slips on - although you can also point to the increasing competence of our protagonists as to why they start spotting them earlier. Some people may disagree that blocks of text are neat, though.