An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[Tvtyrant]

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And Asmodean, and Ishamael, and possibly Lanfear… Aginor did most of his damage via building all the Shadowspawn - but they're almost certain for the titleholder of Most Kills in both Ages. The rest of the Forsaken admittedly did much less direct materiel damage (in this Age).

But yes, technicalities/semantics aside, Elayne wasn't the most helpful. At all.

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Which reminds me, we never get to see what the big worms(Jumara) were supposed to turn into in the waste. Sammael mentions how they would never transform now. I kept waiting for Aginor's big event to be a flight of giant moth-dragons, but it never occured.

[Douglas]

Also, AES; You might have actually missed this as it's never really stated outright in the books, but at this stage in the story Egwene and Elyane are about 18 or 19 years old and Nyneave is about 27 or 28.

And Nynaeve is frequently frustrated about not being taken seriously because she looks more like 18 or 19 than her actual age.

[Saph]

And Nynaeve is frequently frustrated about not being taken seriously because she looks more like 18 or 19 than her actual age.

Reading between the lines, you have to wonder whether it might be less that she's got the looks of a teenager and more that she's got the impulse control of one. Hitting anyone who disagrees with you with a stick isn't exactly a sign of maturity.

[snowblizz]

Spoiler: My admittedly questionable recollection

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I thought she made a few comments earlier in the story about how she was some what regretful that she would not get to prove herself in a war for the throne as her mother did and I also don't recall her ever actually expressing regret or sadness over the civil war but honestly the books are so long and it has been a few years since I read them so it is very possible, probable even, that I am mis-remembering.

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When she arrives at Caemelyn Dyelin specifically asks her if she intends to take the throne as offered by the Dragon or in her own right. She says the latter, which Dyelin says is the only reason she supports Elayne, more or less. Keep in mind Morgase lost the throne due to a man controlling her too and you can see why the Andorans are espacially unhappy with the idea Rand is giving her the throne. That there's a civil war is quite frankly not Elayne's fault. The Shadow is playing all the sides here too. If it wasn't for Darkfriend support the rebellion against Elayne wouldn't be so bad either. There's just not going to be a way to solve all the problems caused by Rahvin without bloodshed. The Darkfriends will see to that.

As in any good civil war there are many sides to it. Those who want peace period. Those who want peace and acknowledge the Dragon is here and it's about to go wrong so maybe we do what he says. Those who angle for personal opportunity. Those actively working for the Shadow. And so on.

What you describe doesn't sound like Elayne to me.

Her biggest fault I'd say is throwing herself into things like she is the heroine of a book. Not listening to the adults as it were.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hitting anyone who disagrees with you with a stick isn't exactly a sign of maturity.

To be fair, the rustic farmer folk of the two rivers do need a good ear-boxing from time to time. Nynaeve's a product of her environment in that way.

[Ashen Lilies]

I think the looking like a teenager (people don't take me seriously) probably led into the other (maybe they'll pay more respect to my FIST).

If I had to deal with Cenn Buie, I'd probably start hitting people with sticks too.

[Saph]

To be fair, the rustic farmer folk of the two rivers do need a good ear-boxing from time to time. Nynaeve's a product of her environment in that way.

The Two Rivers folk are explicitly and multiple times called out in the books as being stubborn to the point of contrariness. Hitting them when they don't do what they're told is exactly the worst possible way to get them to do something, even if it was a good management technique in real life, which it isn't. Once you get to book 4 . . .

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. . . when Perrin becomes Lord of the Two Rivers, you'll notice he does so without having to hit or bully anyone. It's a really good example of good leadership and the complete opposite of what Nynaeve does.

[Ashen Lilies]

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The same character traits that make Nynaeve a terrible wisdom are what make her an exceptional maverick once she joins the Aes Sedai.

[snowblizz]

I think the looking like a teenager (people don't take me seriously) probably led into the other (maybe they'll pay more respect to my FIST).

If I had to deal with Cenn Buie, I'd probably start hitting people with sticks too.

And even then Nynaeve is what early-20s. Which is going to be rather young for something like a Wisdom anyway for whom other qualities than able to channel is going to be important. In one way, it's the Women's Circle's fault. They shouldn't really have picked Nynaeve as Wisdom. She *was* probably too young, even though super competent in other areas (ie a channeler).

[lord_khaine]

And even then Nynaeve is what early-20s. Which is going to be rather young for something like a Wisdom anyway for whom other qualities than able to channel is going to be important. In one way, it's the Women's Circle's fault. They shouldn't really have picked Nynaeve as Wisdom. She *was* probably too young, even though super competent in other areas (ie a channeler).

Hmm.. yes.. i agree.. in the end its the Womens Circle's fault for picking Nynaeve, despite her being to young for the job.
Or well thinking about it. If she is around 26-27 then she should be old enough. The problem is she isnt emotionally mature enough, and lack people skills.
But i suspect she were picked anyway because she were still the best healer they had available. A skill by the way, that has nothing to do with her being a channeler.

[hamishspence]

I thought at least part of her healing skill was, unknown to her until much later, subconsciously doing magic?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Mhm. My impression was that it's a blend of both. She's the best at non-magical healing and she'd been subconsciously augmenting that with magic the whole time. When you've got a literal miracle worker on your hands, it's hard not to promote her to Wisdom.

[Ashen Lilies]

In other news: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/li...-order-1148488

Real-time braid tugging!

[Flying Turtle]

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When she arrives at Caemelyn Dyelin specifically asks her if she intends to take the throne as offered by the Dragon or in her own right. She says the latter, which Dyelin says is the only reason she supports Elayne, more or less. Keep in mind Morgase lost the throne due to a man controlling her too and you can see why the Andorans are espacially unhappy with the idea Rand is giving her the throne. That there's a civil war is quite frankly not Elayne's fault. The Shadow is playing all the sides here too. If it wasn't for Darkfriend support the rebellion against Elayne wouldn't be so bad either. There's just not going to be a way to solve all the problems caused by Rahvin without bloodshed. The Darkfriends will see to that.

As in any good civil war there are many sides to it. Those who want peace period. Those who want peace and acknowledge the Dragon is here and it's about to go wrong so maybe we do what he says. Those who angle for personal opportunity. Those actively working for the Shadow. And so on.

What you describe doesn't sound like Elayne to me.

Her biggest fault I'd say is throwing herself into things like she is the heroine of a book. Not listening to the adults as it were.

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That's fair, like I said it has been a long time since I read these books and I may very well be mis-remembering her attitude towards the civil war, which was my primary gripe towards her actions during the civil war.

Also, AES; You might have actually missed this as it's never really stated outright in the books, but at this stage in the story Egwene and Elyane are about 18 or 19 years old and Nyneave is about 27 or 28.

It was always a little weird that we never get a lot of explicit info on their ages. Personally this was the impression I got as well, maybe a year or two younger.

[Anteros]

The Two Rivers folk are explicitly and multiple times called out in the books as being stubborn to the point of contrariness. Hitting them when they don't do what they're told is exactly the worst possible way to get them to do something, even if it was a good management technique in real life, which it isn't. Once you get to book 4 . . .

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. . . when Perrin becomes Lord of the Two Rivers, you'll notice he does so without having to hit or bully anyone. It's a really good example of good leadership and the complete opposite of what Nynaeve does.

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Right. All Perrin had to do was materialize out of thin air like a hero from legend with Aiel, Ogier, and noble companions, unite the Two Rivers through his Ta'veren powers, and save the place from a Trolloc invasion. Why didn't Nynaeve just do that instead??!

More seriously, the books mention several times how the Two Rivers people are unnaturally subserviant towards Perrin. Whether it's him being Ta'veren or just hero worship you can't really compare his difficulties leading the Two Rivers to Nynaeves.

Also, someone else mentioned Cenn Buie. One of my favorite running gags of the series is that Buie is always treated as this crackpot paranoid buffoon....yet if you actually go back and look at his track record concerning his crazy predictions, they're basically always right.

[Saph]

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Right. All Perrin had to do was materialize out of thin air like a hero from legend with Aiel, Ogier, and noble companions, unite the Two Rivers through his Ta'veren powers, and save the place from a Trolloc invasion. Why didn't Nynaeve just do that instead??!

More seriously, the books mention several times how the Two Rivers people are unnaturally subserviant towards Perrin. Whether it's him being Ta'veren or just hero worship you can't really compare his difficulties leading the Two Rivers to Nynaeves.

Spoiler: Perrin

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Rand's a much stronger ta'veren than Perrin, and from the minute he becomes a ruler, he has to deal with a pretty much non-stop series of betrayals, rebellions, and intrigue. So being a ta'veren doesn't automatically make people subservient.

Perrin being a ta'veren is half of how he becomes Lord of the Two Rivers, but it's only half – the other half is that he's a really good, responsible leader.

[Anteros]

Spoiler: Perrin

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Rand's a much stronger ta'veren than Perrin, and from the minute he becomes a ruler, he has to deal with a pretty much non-stop series of betrayals, rebellions, and intrigue. So being a ta'veren doesn't automatically make people subservient.

Perrin being a ta'veren is half of how he becomes Lord of the Two Rivers, but it's only half – the other half is that he's a really good, responsible leader.

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I don't think I agree. His leadership style for most of the books is "hide and let Faile deal with it." His whole character arc in the second half of the books is how he needs to stop neglecting his responsibilities as a leader.

Rand isn't a particularly good comparison in my opinion. People don't hero worship him like they do with Perrin. They hate and fear him.

[Traab]

Spoiler: Perrin

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Rand's a much stronger ta'veren than Perrin, and from the minute he becomes a ruler, he has to deal with a pretty much non-stop series of betrayals, rebellions, and intrigue. So being a ta'veren doesn't automatically make people subservient.

Perrin being a ta'veren is half of how he becomes Lord of the Two Rivers, but it's only half – the other half is that he's a really good, responsible leader.

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Each of the three have very different expressions of their taveren status. Matt has absolutely absurd good luck, rand has absolutely absurd good AND bad luck that randomly effects everyone around him (by around I mean within the country borders or so) And perrin seems to have this (hur hur) animal magnetism when ti comes to being a leader despite not wanting to do it.

[Tvtyrant]

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I don't think I agree. His leadership style for most of the books is "hide and let Faile deal with it." His whole character arc in the second half of the books is how he needs to stop neglecting his responsibilities as a leader.

Rand isn't a particularly good comparison in my opinion. People don't hero worship him like they do with Perrin. They hate and fear him.

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Not being a micro-manager can make you a good leader. The Two Rivers needed an army and some political cohesion, but being basically colonial Massachusetts they really didn't need a lord. Perrin, being from there, is totally fine letting the towns run themselves (he even has a fight with the Wisdoms about them asking him for advice about mundane everyday stuff.)

Rand is despotic because he is told he should be. He undermines local cultures and practices, changes entire countries as a whim, and his biggest objection to the treaty with the Sea People is that they have the right to talk to him 3 times a year. He is exactly like a divine right monarch who conquers half the world, and is constantly perplexed why offering no benefits to following him except not dying is received so badly.

[Anteros]

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Not being a micro-manager can make you a good leader. The Two Rivers needed an army and some political cohesion, but being basically colonial Massachusetts they really didn't need a lord. Perrin, being from there, is totally fine letting the towns run themselves (he even has a fight with the Wisdoms about them asking him for advice about mundane everyday stuff.)

Rand is despotic because he is told he should be. He undermines local cultures and practices, changes entire countries as a whim, and his biggest objection to the treaty with the Sea People is that they have the right to talk to him 3 times a year. He is exactly like a divine right monarch who conquers half the world, and is constantly perplexed why offering no benefits to following him except not dying is received so badly.

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Ok, but it's more than not being a micro manager. He outright neglects the people under his charge until the last 2 books when he learns that he needs to put aside his reservations and lead his people or someone else will. This is explicitly his character arc, and it's literally stated in the books multiple times by both Perrin and Faile. Perrin is a good leader by the end of the series, but he certainly doesn't start that way.

That's not a fair assessment of Rand either. Rand constantly goes out of his way to do things like stop violence, build schools, and feed the hungry. He's rude to power hungry nobles who have built their fortunes crushing those beneath them, and it bites him more than once, but it's a necessary evil to change a society that's been stuck in the feudal era for thousands of years. Surprisingly, the noble class doesn't like it when you take away their power and wealth to share with the peasantry. It also doesn't help that people have been telling horror stories to their children about him for the last few thousand years. Rand was never going to have a peaceful road, no matter what policies he instituted.

Even if you ignore the Dark One and the Forsaken entirely, Rand leaves the world a whole lot better than he found it. Then he willingly gives up power. It's an enormous stretch to call him a despot.

[Tvtyrant]

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I think we are using different interpretations of despotism here. Rand is not even slightly out of sync with ye olde enlightened despots. Centralizing power, removing noble power for appointed ministers, public education, drafts, the works.

[Anteros]

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I think we are using different interpretations of despotism here. Rand is not even slightly out of sync with ye olde enlightened despots. Centralizing power, removing noble power for appointed ministers, public education, drafts, the works.

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Fair enough, but no one ever uses the term that way, so you can see why I'd be confused. It's basically a synonym with tyrant for most people. Especially given the second half of your comment about him not giving anyone any reason to follow him.

[Tvtyrant]

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Fair enough, but no one ever uses the term that way, so you can see why I'd be confused. It's basically a synonym with tyrant for most people. Especially given the second half of your comment about him not giving anyone any reason to follow him.

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By anyone I'm meaning "established local leadership." He shows up, demands conformity and then declares the Aiel the state police/assassins.

He isn't a tyrant in the sense of "butcher the populace" but he is a despot in the "god king who centralizes all authority." He even deals with the classic issue of divine kings everywhen; his ministers tend to become corrupt in his absence because no one can gainsay them. The worst is Taim of course, but he has to backtrack to execute or strip his appointed ministers several times when they overstep his desires in his absence.

His dispute with Elayne is essentially that he is going to make her minister of several of his provinces , and she wants to be an actual Queen. He throws several fits over this in the book, because centralized power is his go to reflex. One of the big moments of the books is when he realizes he has to actually work with other factions instead of just conquering the world.

[Gnoman]

Mhm. My impression was that it's a blend of both. She's the best at non-magical healing and she'd been subconsciously augmenting that with magic the whole time. When you've got a literal miracle worker on your hands, it's hard not to promote her to Wisdom.

Her skill at Healing was only one of the reasons she became Wisdom, and it was the lesser one. Her biggest qualification was her ability to "listen to the wind", which is really using the Power to predict the weather.


As for her temper, there's something I find pretty interesting. She can only channel when she's angry, and her two biggest jobs as Wisdom work a lot better when she's channeling. This means she does her job much better when she's angry. I think she's subconsciously making herself mad for the purpose of fulfilling her duty.

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Note that, once she dissolves her block and can channel at-will, she loses a lot of her abrasiveness.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I would include "listening to the wind" as a 'miracle', for the record.

And a quick note on the spoiler conversation...

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I know I've used the term 'despot' in the sense Tvtyrant does. Seems entirely appropriate for Rand.

[Traab]

I dunno

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I think he is despotic not by choice but by several factors combined. Dudes a farm boy put in charge of the fight against evil. He has no knowledge of delegation, no knowledge of how to be a politician, his education on everything outside the two rivers is spotty and scattered through a half dozen or more teachers with wildly different views on whats right or not. He just knows, "Ok, im in charge, lets do this" Then as was mentioned, he got screwed over by people he DID assign to take charge in his name so his ability to trust others to take care of themselves without his direct oversight and control is damaged. "If you want it done right...." Back to education, seriously, does even a YEAR pass between "Trollocs are a myth" to "Hail Dragon Reborn! Lead us to the Final Battle!"? Its like the movie King Ralph, only Ralph has to take over the world and the apocalypse is right around the corner. Oh, and half the world wants him dead. Enjoy learning how to govern!

[Gnoman]

I dunno

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I think he is despotic not by choice but by several factors combined. Dudes a farm boy put in charge of the fight against evil. He has no knowledge of delegation, no knowledge of how to be a politician, his education on everything outside the two rivers is spotty and scattered through a half dozen or more teachers with wildly different views on whats right or not. He just knows, "Ok, im in charge, lets do this" Then as was mentioned, he got screwed over by people he DID assign to take charge in his name so his ability to trust others to take care of themselves without his direct oversight and control is damaged. "If you want it done right...." Back to education, seriously, does even a YEAR pass between "Trollocs are a myth" to "Hail Dragon Reborn! Lead us to the Final Battle!"? Its like the movie King Ralph, only Ralph has to take over the world and the apocalypse is right around the corner. Oh, and half the world wants him dead. Enjoy learning how to govern!

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The Eye Of The World takes place in 998, Rand proclaims himself the Dragon Reborn in 999, and the Last Battle is fought in 1000.

[Wookieetank]

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The Eye Of The World takes place in 998, Rand proclaims himself the Dragon Reborn in 999, and the Last Battle is fought in 1000.

I did not realize the books took place over such a short time frame. Granted the books were released over 23 years so that may have played into my perception of things taking longer.

[Traab]

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The Eye Of The World takes place in 998, Rand proclaims himself the Dragon Reborn in 999, and the Last Battle is fought in 1000.

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So yeah at best a year of roaming the world before declaring himself the dragon reborn, and its not like morainne or anyone else were really teaching him how to rule this whole time. Yes he picked up some useful bits of info here and there, but total farm boy becomes king moment with all the added baggage of what being the dragon reborn means. At least in David Eddings books, Garion got to take over an empire that WANTED him for the most part, and wasnt expected to shatter the world or bring about the final battle. No need to conquer them, or take them over, just prove yep, im the overlord, and move on from there. Of course it also helped his party didnt have several people with several different ideas of what he should be doing, none of whom seemed to think "Maybe we should turn him into a good ruler instead of a puppet" was an option.

[georgie_leech]

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So yeah at best a year of roaming the world before declaring himself the dragon reborn, and its not like morainne or anyone else were really teaching him how to rule this whole time. Yes he picked up some useful bits of info here and there, but total farm boy becomes king moment with all the added baggage of what being the dragon reborn means. At least in David Eddings books, Garion got to take over an empire that WANTED him for the most part, and wasnt expected to shatter the world or bring about the final battle. No need to conquer them, or take them over, just prove yep, im the overlord, and move on from there. Of course it also helped his party didnt have several people with several different ideas of what he should be doing, none of whom seemed to think "Maybe we should turn him into a good ruler instead of a puppet" was an option.

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I mean, Moiraine figured it out, and was doing a decent job of it before Lanfear happened.