An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time III: Something's Fishy in the White Tower

[georgie_leech]

I do agree on that a large part of why the Aiel seems OP is that their opponents are generally glorified militia with incompetent leaders fighting trained veterans.
Of course another part is how generally useless armor is in the world of RJ :P

Spoiler

Show

I think i mentioned this earlier, but Mat did show that all it takes is decent leadership to fight back the Aiel with regular troops

Spoiler

Show

Good tactics in general are a rarity. The Seanchan are called out as having great generals because they, you know, actually expect them to anticipate their opponents and such.

[Gnoman]

Spoiler

Show

Good tactics in general are a rarity. The Seanchan are called out as having great generals because they, you know, actually expect them to anticipate their opponents and such.

Spoiler

Show

At least this is explicitly called out as a thing the non-Aiel, non-Seanchan countries are bad at, rather than the author not knowing any better.

[Seerow]

Spoiler

Show

At least this is explicitly called out as a thing the non-Aiel, non-Seanchan countries are bad at, rather than the author not knowing any better.

Spoiler

Show

I'm actually in the middle of my reread and found it really hilarious when there was a conversation along the lines of:

Person 1: The Seanchan, they adapt. They're careful, they don't make the same mistake twice. If they lose, they go back, figure out what went wrong, and make sure they do better next time
Person 2: I know men like that, Gareth Bryne, Rodel Ituralde, even Pedron Niall
Person 1: Yes, the Great Captains. We have 4 of them. Every last one of the Seanchan is exactly as good!

It says a lot about the relative state of military study/strategy between the continents. I am actually curious how much work Ishmael put into pushing the world to develop that way. We know he was doing a lot of manipulation between the Breaking and Rand's rebirth, most notably the Trolloc Wars, but also I think he was the force behind Artur Hawking turning against the Aes Sedai and most likely a large influence on the Black Ajah. I think I recall it being implied he was behind the Aes Sedai's 3 Oaths as well. Anyway point is Ishmael was up to a bunch of shady stuff over thousands of years, is it possible he intentionally groomed a culture where war doctrine was practically non-existent to give the Shadow an edge in the last battle? /tinfoilhat

Also re:Team Magikarp

Egwene I actually like. This most recent reread I find myself liking her a bit less than previously, but overall she channels her stubbornness into telling a bunch of far more annoying characters to shut up and sit down, so I'm okay with that. Her arc while captured in the tower, realizing that being Amyrlin is more than just beating Elaida and instead needing to heal the rifts in the tower... that was all great.

On the other extreme there is Elayne. I am firmly in the camp that every protagonist would have been better off had Elayne managed to get gutted on a Seanchan spear or get a'damed in Falme, and never seen or heard from again. Just about her only saving grace is the Civil War in Caemlyn is only partially her fault, since Dyelin could have ended it in an instant by claiming the crown for herself. Elayne never really shows herself as particularly adept at politics, strategy, or leadership. The only thing she is really good at is charging headfirst into things without stopping to think about how many thousands of people will pay to clean up her mess later. The fact that her subplots also had the biggest focus on the Sea Folk is not a point in her favor, as they are overall the most worthless of the nations Rand binds to him, yet still have an enormous page count devoted to their bull****.

Nynaeve... I've read opinions from others saying that she is a character you identify more with the older you get, and I kind of see that. Reading the book the first time as a teenager she's the annoying adult who wants to stop the kids from having an adventure. Going back later you see a woman wholeheartedly dedicated to protecting those she sees as her own, and just wanting to stop these dumb kids from getting pulled in over their heads. A lot of her objections probably would have been a lot more true if we didn't have literally 3 ta'veren there saying "There's no getting off this train we're on". Also for all the talk of hitting people with her stick, outside of maybe the first few chapters of the first book I don't think I can recall Nynaeve ever actually hitting anyone. Though there is certainly a lot of unjustified anger from her (which I agree with an earlier poster that at least after she learns she can channel, and knows she has a block, is her either consciously or subconsciously forcing herself to get angry over minor things so she can channel. So of course once her block is broken, she mellows out a ton and becomes probably one of the most reasonable characters in the series

As far as non-spoiler stuff, on the topic of Aeil: I don't mind them. But I also don't care of AES decides to hate them. I suspect getting through some future books will be a huge slog for him if he doesn't lighten at least somewhat towards them, but hey you hate what you hate.

[Sapphire Guard]

I don't think the Seanchan are that great, tactically. They just have the biggest guns, in the damane, which no one else has to the same degree.

[Traab]

I don't think the Seanchan are that great, tactically. They just have the biggest guns, in the damane, which no one else has to the same degree.

They have a different style of fighting with different tools and techniques. Surprise is death in combat and their entire setup is a massive surprise when we run into it. You dont need to be a genius to win when your opponent has never faced anything more harrowing than a heavy cavalry charge and you can nuke them from orbit, since its the only way to be sure.

Spoiler

Show

As for nynaeve no she doesnt go around trying to deck people, its why she spends so much time yanking her braid like a lunatic. Its restraining herself from taking a swing at people who will BEAT HER RUMP if she actually tried that. She is aware of the fact that she is no longer one of the higher ranking people around as the wisdom, she isnt dealing with farmers and their families, she is dealing with highly trained veterans like lan, and very powerful aes sedai like morraine who are more than capable of putting her in her place if she steps out of line. Going from boss to bottom rung underling must be enraging for her.

[Saph]

Spoiler

Show

As for nynaeve no she doesnt go around trying to deck people, its why she spends so much time yanking her braid like a lunatic.

Spoiler: Nynaeve

Show

She actually does try to beat people up on quite a few occasions. Such as with Cerandin (the elephant handler Seanchan she meets at the circus in book 5). Given that Cerandin's an ex-military type who knows how to fight, this goes about as well as you'd expect.

[The_Snark]

My reaction to the Aiel was basically "Sounds fake, but OK" and then just moving on. In general I found it interesting how different they were, culturally, from everyone else.

Obviously you react how you're going to react, but dedicating yourself to resenting them every time they appear is just going to lead to a lot of frustration.

I kind of figured AES was playing up his dislike of Aiel for comic effect, at least in part.

[Adderbane]

I don't think the Seanchan are that great, tactically. They just have the biggest guns, in the damane, which no one else has to the same degree.

Spoiler

Show

They also have raken and their variants, which provide better scouting, communication, and logistic capability than anything the wetlanders get without gateways.

[snowblizz]

Spoiler

Show

They also have raken and their variants, which provide better scouting, communication, and logistic capability than anything the wetlanders get without gateways.

Spoiler: seanchan

Show

Indeed. It#s not for nothing Ituralde muses "screw damane I want those flying lizards". That the power is far more important militarily when not being used just as blasty-blasty is sort ofa big point later on. Or Sanderson just took it to it's logical conclusion.

Something of how good Seanchan are compared to Wetlanders in more overarching military stuff can be seen how IIRC Taraboner lancers are suddenly a real threat when led professionally and having a moral backbone. In stark contrast to how they are considered before by others.

The Seanchan armies are all professional soldiers whereas most Wetlander armies are at best militia led by enthusiastic amateurs.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Spoiler: seanchan

Show

"screw damane I want those flying lizards"

Spoiler: Corazón Santiago's appears unbidden in my head

Show

"Air power rests at the apex of the first triad of victory, for it combines mobility, flexibility, and initiative."

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Corazón Santiago's appears unbidden in my head

Show

"Air power rests at the apex of the first triad of victory, for it combines mobility, flexibility, and initiative."

Spoiler

Show

Also To'raken are basically flying elephants. They can carry 1,000 lbs 200 miles in a day, which means you can pull off some crazy none-sense that only gating can match (like flying a caster force into your enemies capital for instance.)

[InvisibleBison]

Spoiler

Show

Also To'raken are basically flying elephants. They can carry 1,000 lbs 200 miles in a day, which means you can pull off some crazy none-sense that only gating can match (like flying a caster force into your enemies capital for instance.)

Spoiler

Show

That sounds impressive, but how much does a to'raken eat? Elephants need between 200 to 600 pounds of food a day, and flying is a more energy intensive method of transportation than walking.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

That sounds impressive, but how much does a to'raken eat? Elephants need between 200 to 600 pounds of food a day, and flying is a more energy intensive method of transportation than walking.

Spoiler

Show

They don't say, but they do say that with just one rider they can travel 1,000 miles without landing. They are also omnivores so I believe they eat plants when not doing anything and eat more calorically dense meat when on mission.

The Seanchen Exotics are strong enough they drove the Shadow thingies into extinction with them on their continent. The rabbit-birds can smell grey men, the Grolm eat Trollocs, Raken can kill the vampires, etc. They would be OP without damane.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

The only exotic i really think are OP is the Raken. Everything else can easily be countered or adapted to.
But of course, all that still pales in comparison to the Damane.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

Show

The only exotic i really think are OP is the Raken. Everything else can easily be countered or adapted to.
But of course, all that still pales in comparison to the Damane.

Spoiler

Show

I don't think so if both sides lose their casters. War Elephants took about 200 years to adapt to before the Romans invented the trumpet trick and they disappeared, before that they had become an increasingly important part of Diadochy armies.

Torm canonically terrify horses and are much faster, making them the best ground scouts by miles. Grolm can break infantry walls, and the Seanchen have war elephants.

Of course the Seanchen don't have gunpowder so they probably lose without casters to Mat, but who doesn't?

[Sapphire Guard]

Does it bother you, AES, that you can't look at a good majority of your threads? Just curious.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

I don't think so if both sides lose their casters. War Elephants took about 200 years to adapt to before the Romans invented the trumpet trick and they disappeared, before that they had become an increasingly important part of Diadochy armies.

Torm canonically terrify horses and are much faster, making them the best ground scouts by miles. Grolm can break infantry walls, and the Seanchen have war elephants.

Of course the Seanchen don't have gunpowder so they probably lose without casters to Mat, but who doesn't?

Elephants are also an order of magnitude larger than Torm or Grolm.
Torm are faster and more enduring than horses, so it gives them a small scouting advantage. But not one thats that big, because their coppery scales also makes them highly noticeable.

And Grolm can be taken down by either archers or a spear wall.

Does it bother you, AES, that you can't look at a good majority of your threads? Just curious.

The current topic isnt even that exciting. Its just a discussion of Seanchan military efficiency without their Damana. I think its mainly habbit that places everything in spoilers just to be safe.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

Show

Elephants are also an order of magnitude larger than Torm or Grolm.
Torm are faster and more enduring than horses, so it gives them a small scouting advantage. But not one thats that big, because their coppery scales also makes them highly noticeable.

And Grolm can be taken down by either archers or a spear wall.

The current topic isnt even that exciting. Its just a discussion of Seanchan military efficiency without their Damana. I think its mainly habbit that places everything in spoilers just to be safe.

There's definitely some spoilers in there. Some of them are even quite large.

[Tvtyrant]

I was actually a moderator on a board in the mid 2000s where we worked on converting Warhammer Fantasy into a WoT system, so arguing about WoT tactics is very nostalgic for me.

[Sivarias]

There's definitely some spoilers in there. Some of them are even quite large.

I see what you did there

[Feytalist]

Spoiler: Corazón Santiago's appears unbidden in my head

Show

"Air power rests at the apex of the first triad of victory, for it combines mobility, flexibility, and initiative."

Did you just reference Alpha Centauri

I have nothing to add, I just quite liked that.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Glad someone liked it. It's scary how often the quotes from that game echo around in my head...

[monomer]

I do agree on that a large part of why the Aiel seems OP is that their opponents are generally glorified militia with incompetent leaders fighting trained veterans.
Of course another part is how generally useless armor is in the world of RJ :P

Spoiler

Show

I think i mentioned this earlier, but Mat did show that all it takes is decent leadership to fight back the Aiel with regular troops

Spoiler

Show

I think decent leadership is understating things a bit. Remember how he came up with a plan to fight the Shaido at Cairhien after one look at the battle map, while it took the best Aiel military commanders along with Lan a few days to come to the same conclusions? Of course they didn't have any of the Great Captains with them, but not many armies do.

Truthfully, though, I didn't mind the Aiel that much. They're just better than the soft wetlanders, which isn't a high bar to clear.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Further conversation on military leadership

Show

Well, Mat only had what, around 3 units to guide around there?
Its really quite limited how much you can do with those.
Except point them in the right direction, and help them avoid tripping
over one another.

[snowblizz]

Spoiler: Further conversation on military leadership

Show

Well, Mat only had what, around 3 units to guide around there?
Its really quite limited how much you can do with those.
Except point them in the right direction, and help them avoid tripping
over one another.

Spoiler

Show

IIRC the situation correctly Moiraine is setting Mat up (sort of). He gets invited to a warcouncil just to say he's really leaving, casually looks over the battle maps and plans out the entire campaign to beat the Shaido. Only to be told he has just figured out what the other combined council have been mulling out over day(s). Aiel chiefs are impressed and see him in a new light too IIRC.

Mat curses himself for being careless and revealing there's more to him than meets the eye (Transformers!).
Hah. OK it's quite fun doing the AES (Sedai?) thing.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: More military stuff

Show

Nahh.. its actually Rand who sets the trap. He makes him come by the warcouncil to say his personal goodbye or something.
But its only Ruac who are there. And he draws Mat into a casual conversation about the battlemap in the center of the room as they wait for Rand.
As i recall it was Ruac who initially spotted that Mat knew a lot more about war than he let on.
But this should be revealed as we get there.

[Traab]

Spoiler: More military stuff

Show

Nahh.. its actually Rand who sets the trap. He makes him come by the warcouncil to say his personal goodbye or something.
But its only Ruac who are there. And he draws Mat into a casual conversation about the battlemap in the center of the room as they wait for Rand.
As i recall it was Ruac who initially spotted that Mat knew a lot more about war than he let on.
But this should be revealed as we get there.

Another 6 years, tops.

[tiornys]

Spoiler: More military stuff

Show

Nahh.. its actually Rand who sets the trap. He makes him come by the warcouncil to say his personal goodbye or something.
But its only Ruac who are there. And he draws Mat into a casual conversation about the battlemap in the center of the room as they wait for Rand.
As i recall it was Ruac who initially spotted that Mat knew a lot more about war than he let on.
But this should be revealed as we get there.

Spoiler: Spoilerish Pedantry

Show

Rand uses Lan to maneuver Mat into revealing how much he'd gained in the way of military knowledge. Lan is the one who guesses about Mat's acumen. It's less a trap and more taking advantage of an opportune moment. From The Fires of Heaven, Before the Arrow:

"A pretty situation, wouldn't you say?"

Mat's head jerked up at Lan's voice, but the Warder had entered the tent alone. "Just something to look at while I waited. Is Rand coming back?"

...

Rand stood staring after Mat long after the tent flaps had fallen to hide him. "I only heard the last bit," he said finally. "Was it all like that?"

"Very nearly," Lan replied. "With only a few minutes to study the maps, he laid out close to the battle plan that Rhuarc and the others made...."

Rand looked at him. The Warder showed no surprise, not the twitch of an eyelash. Of course, he was the one who said Mat seemed surprisingly knowledgeable about military matters.

...

He had seen Mat climbing toward this tent, and never hesitated in sending Lan in to discover what might come to the surface in idle conversation alone.

[snowblizz]

Spoiler: Spoilerish Pedantry

Show

Rand uses Lan to maneuver Mat into revealing how much he'd gained in the way of military knowledge. Lan is the one who guesses about Mat's acumen. It's less a trap and more taking advantage of an opportune moment. From The Fires of Heaven, Before the Arrow:

Spoiler: Even more pedantry?

Show

If Lan is the soruce of Rands suspicions then dollars to donuts it's Moiraine in the shadows pulling strings. I was obviously only remembering the gist of it.

If you ask me, when involving Aes Sedai there are no opportune moments only carefully orchestrated traps.

[georgie_leech]

Spoiler: Even more pedantry?

Show

If Lan is the soruce of Rands suspicions then dollars to donuts it's Moiraine in the shadows pulling strings. I was obviously only remembering the gist of it.

If you ask me, when involving Aes Sedai there are no opportune moments only carefully orchestrated traps.

Spoiler

Show

Considering the timeline of events and what Moiraine was busy doing at the time (I.e. functionally dead after fighting with Lanfear), I would be thoroughly impressed if it was a plot by her.