Making a Half-Elf useable

[Chester]

Hello.

I'm not optimizing. I'm just looking for a way to make Half-Elves not be god-awful.

Marshal 3 / Fighter 2 / Outcast Champion 5 / Dread Pirate 10

Or something like that. Fighter 2 is there just to make it easier to qualify for Dread Pirate. Pirate would be the honorable type.

So, the build doesn't do much, but the rest of the party can benefit from his presence.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hello.

I'm not optimizing. I'm just looking for a way to make Half-Elves not be god-awful.

Marshal 3 / Fighter 2 / Outcast Champion 5 / Dread Pirate 10

Or something like that. Fighter 2 is there just to make it easier to qualify for Dread Pirate. Pirate would be the honorable type.

So, the build doesn't do much, but the rest of the party can benefit from his presence.

Elf with the Human Blood or Human Heritage feats? Then DCFS out all six of the elf's Weapon Proficiency feats to make up for the lost 1st level feat.

[Zaq]

Any build that doesn't need to be a specific race and that doesn't need the bonus feat from a human can get by as a half-elf. Being a half-elf is basically never actually detrimental to your goals (unless being Medium is out of the question for some reason, but that's pretty specific). The racial features contribute next to nothing, but they also have no mechanical weaknesses. They're basically tofu. It's often more fun to be a race that gives you something active to play with, but the half-elf at least never takes anything away.

Yeah, they're not optimal for basically anything, and they're generally boring, but that's not the same thing as being "godawful." Lackluster, absolutely, but not the same as, say, something that gets a penalty to a stat you care about.

That's not enough for you? You want to actively be a half-elf? Fine. Do you have access to Eberron material? Half-elves are the only ones who can take the Mark of Storm, which means that they're the only ones who can take the Windwright Captain PrC (Eberron Explorer's Handbook pg. 70). Which, among other things, gives you a ship. Which is actually a prereq for the Dread Pirate class you want to take, so it slots rather perfectly into the build you presented.

[remetagross]

Half-elves have nice enough racial substitution levels for Bards: at 1st level they lose the crappy Countersong for the nice Soothing Voice, that works as an area of effect Calm Emotions with Will DC = Diplomacy check.

[Oracle71]

If you have Tome of Battle, half elves qualify for the Eternal Blade Prc. Warblade or Crusader 10/Eternal Blade 10 are some pretty strong martial builds if you choose the right feat/maneuver combos.

[Chester]

I guess what I'm really asking is if that build can work.

[skunk3]

Any build that doesn't need to be a specific race and that doesn't need the bonus feat from a human can get by as a half-elf. Being a half-elf is basically never actually detrimental to your goals (unless being Medium is out of the question for some reason, but that's pretty specific). The racial features contribute next to nothing, but they also have no mechanical weaknesses. They're basically tofu. It's often more fun to be a race that gives you something active to play with, but the half-elf at least never takes anything away.

Yeah, they're not optimal for basically anything, and they're generally boring, but that's not the same thing as being "godawful." Lackluster, absolutely, but not the same as, say, something that gets a penalty to a stat you care about.

That's not enough for you? You want to actively be a half-elf? Fine. Do you have access to Eberron material? Half-elves are the only ones who can take the Mark of Storm, which means that they're the only ones who can take the Windwright Captain PrC (Eberron Explorer's Handbook pg. 70). Which, among other things, gives you a ship. Which is actually a prereq for the Dread Pirate class you want to take, so it slots rather perfectly into the build you presented.

Awesome info there!

[skunk3]

I'm thinking the Admiral's Bicorne would be a good item to have. Just sayin'.

As far as half-elves go, they aren't bad. They're just kinda bland, like people have already pointed out. However, if you are set on being a pirate then a half-elf might be decent due to the PrC someone pointed out!

[Luccan]

If you're only using PHB races or even non-LA subraces, they're about the best face you can have. Unfortunately, this was not a protected niche for them to fill and as a result they fall short. Still, your build does benefit somewhat from being a half-elf specifically. I assume you'll be taking the Charisma aura with Marshal? Though I'd like to note, you could replace Fighter with any full BAB class. You only need two feats for Dread Pirate, which this build doesn't even access until level 10.

Edit: Specifically one that benefits from Charisma, if that's the route you're going? Paladin of Freedom comes to mind. Or even Hexblade or Battle Dancer... Actually, Battle Dancer could be great. Dread Pirate benefits from no armor, Battle Dancer adds Cha to AC when not in armor. Plus if you go for the two levels, you get another "help my allies' saves" ability.

[Darrin]

Half-Elves make excellent Eternal Idiot Crusaders, particularly if your group uses the Multiclass XP penalty:

Warblade 8/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10
Fighter 2/Warblade 6/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10
Barbarian 2/Warblade 6/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10
Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 6/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10
etc.

Half-drow with Crinti Shadow Pouncer can be loads of fun.

There are also a few corner-cases where Forestlord Half-Elf could be a good pick. Revenant Blade, for example.

[Zanos]

Being a half-elf is basically never actually detrimental to your goals (unless being Medium is out of the question for some reason, but that's pretty specific).

Disagree. Opportunity cost is still a cost. Picking half-elf is detrimental because it prevents you from picking an actually good race.

That said, a half-elf is usually only marginally worse than an actual good race. It's not like it's an Orc wizard.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Disagree. Opportunity cost is still a cost. Picking half-elf is detrimental because it prevents you from picking an actually good race.

It depends on where you zero your measurements. But at the end of the day, it's semantics, and the semantics Zaqs used were the best ones for clearly conveying his point.

[Zaq]

Disagree. Opportunity cost is still a cost. Picking half-elf is detrimental because it prevents you from picking an actually good race.

That said, a half-elf is usually only marginally worse than an actual good race. It's not like it's an Orc wizard.

I don’t think we fundamentally disagree. A half-elf is nearly never truly optimal, and so you could almost always do better. But like you say in your second paragraph, you could almost always do worse, too. Being a tofu race in a game like 4e (where the dominant paradigm is that the vast majority of races only have upsides and have few or no active penalties, opportunity cost notwithstanding) puts you near the bottom of the heap, but in a game like 3.5 (where most races have at least a token downside), it merely makes you boring and slightly suboptimal rather than hideously awful.

Note that I still don’t like half-elves one bit, and I agree that it takes a really weird build before you look at it and say “okay, half-elf was definitely the best choice there.” I don’t think I’ve ever used half-elf in an actual build (maybe once long ago because I wanted something longer-lived than a human, but I think there was GM fudging involved, and I really don’t remember). If nothing else, they’re right next to humans, and if you really want a race with no downsides, it’s dang hard to beat a human, so it’s a rare case indeed when you’d choose a half-elf over a human. But “not the best choice” is not the same thing as “unusable.” Maybe in a highly competitive Test of Spite-style setup where a +1 is the difference between moving on and dropping out, but if you just feel like playing a half-elf in a normal game, you’ll honestly probably be fine.

Unless you have a race-locked feat or race-locked class that your build hinges on (or your build can’t function without a human bonus feat, which is absolutely a common situation), your race is going to be totally secondary to your class in terms of your functionality for 9/10 LA 0 races. A half-elf Wizard has 2 less INT than a gray elf Wizard, but they’re still a freaking Wizard. Even if a half-elf Barb has a whole 4 less STR than a full orc Barb, they can still stack the same multipliers on a charge and still mess you up but good.

They aren’t good game design, they’re boring, and they aren’t optimal, but they’re still 100% functional. (That said, it wouldn’t break a single thing to homebrew some nice perks for them.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about half-elf vs my example of an elf with the Human Blood or Human Heritage feat? Any thoughts?

[Red Fel]

That's not enough for you? You want to actively be a half-elf? Fine. Do you have access to Eberron material? Half-elves are the only ones who can take the Mark of Storm, which means that they're the only ones who can take the Windwright Captain PrC (Eberron Explorer's Handbook pg. 70). Which, among other things, gives you a ship. Which is actually a prereq for the Dread Pirate class you want to take, so it slots rather perfectly into the build you presented.

Let's also not forget that this particular Dragonmark can get you 1/day Control Winds, which with very little effort can create a 720'-radius tornado that lasts for three hours, pretty much guaranteeing that everything in the vicinity is completely destroyed. Once per day.

This is something that only a Half-Elf can do. Granted, anyone with Control Winds and an appropriate caster level can also do it, but they don't get it as a 1/day SLA, is my point. A Half-Elf can do this, even without taking a single level in a spellcasting class. Heck, if your build as written can spare three feats, you can totally squeeze those three in (Least Dragonmark, Lesser Dragonmark, Greater Dragonmark) and you're there.

Just food for thought.

[Jormengand]

A +2 bonus to mind control and find things out checks, a +2 bonus to don't be mind controlled checks, and a +1 bonus to see people, hear people and find stuff checks isn't that bad. The main reason half-elves are bad is that people houserule one of the skills they get a +2 bonus to so that it isn't completely insane.

[Eladrinblade]

Let them have a bonus feat at 10th level and 2 bonus skill points at 1st level and another one every two levels past that.

[Afgncaap5]

Let them have a bonus feat at 10th level and 2 bonus skill points at 1st level and another one every two levels past that.

That's kinda similar to Unearthed Arcana's note from one game designer who likes to give half-elves an extra skill point every level, just like humans. It's not overpowering, but it's definitely helpful. I let players use that rule (and also adopt Pathfinder's Skill Focus feat and dual-favored class, even though favored class means something way different in 3.5.)