Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Anteros]

Well, but Jiren isn't presented as a villain, just a rival.

Maybe I should have used the word antagonist then.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 123

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ok, let us see the mythical Un-Worfening of Vegeta that everyone is talking about. I can't wait for the day when its inevitably rendered pointless by Goku achieving something even greater.

yup, they're really playing Jiren's arrogance here. and Goku challenges Jiren again....

meanwhile Freeza gets smashed into a rock! its not very effective. he doesn't even remember the troopers team name...and he isn't even golden yet. Dyspo is going to lose.

and ooh, 17 is willing to take one for the team to get rid of Toppo. thats gutsy. well that almost worked, but no cigar! and nothing of note really happened.

huh, marble-sized ki mines. good idea, Goku. rare day when someone says that.

and now your stealing Krillins move! goku! come on.

and wow, he actually uses the destructo disc effectively! Jiren is falling out of the stage! ok thats was a legitimately good strategy Goku! ....I wonder how Jiren will make that useless.

oh, I think Jiren's angry, he just went red and is now kicking Goku's ass again, and seems to be taking any hit as if he doesn't care.

"For Jiren, that is simply a punch." -0_0......yeah, even with Goku's newfound smarts, Jiren is still Saitama'ing everyone.

and then Vegeta goes......uh.......SS Blue 2? I'm just going call it Blue 2 for short. form remembering Cabba. YES! fight to bring them back Vegeta!

Tournament Status:
U7: 5/10
U11: 3/10
U3: Erased.
U4: Erased
U2: Erased.
U6: Erased.
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 8 fighters remaining.

So yeah, both Vegeta and Goku might have a shot at this. unfortunately for Vegeta, it seems his power up is only equivalent to Blue Kaio-Ken. so Goku has already surpassed Blue 2, unfortunately.

Preview: aaaaaaw, Gohans gonna fall to DYSPO? man, thats lame. at least let him take out Toppo.

[khadgar567]

you know I realy hate to quote my self but i was right vegeta did gain ultra instinct then he did some thing rare and fuse it with his blue form so next episode we might get the fusion fusion ha part of the battle since idiot duo are roughly at same level. and for frieza its good to see bastard taking all in a slide that means dyspo is weaker than goku super saiyan goku right know

the theory spinning in thew web is he got the attack point of the instinct and goku have the defensive instinct part so its kinda my version is goku and vegita gonna need to fusion dance so they kinda get the full instinct so they can beat jirren since goku cant hit him and vegita cant defend himself and check whis in both episodes he does the same expresion in same time for both of them. I bet a full set of dragon balls that next epidode vegita gets his part of the instinct then.

[Starwulf]

you know I realy hate to quote my self but i was right vegeta did gain ultra instinct then he did some thing rare and fuse it with his blue form so next episode we might get the fusion fusion ha part of the battle since idiot duo are roughly at same level. and for frieza its good to see bastard taking all in a slide that means dyspo is weaker than goku super saiyan goku right know

I'd disagree, Vegeta's form does not appear to be Ultra Instinct, and the lead into the episode even called it "Vegeta's entirely different than Goku's power-up" or something of the sort. UI has been shown as normal black hair with a sheen to it combined with Silver-ish eyes. I'm with Raziere on this one, this more appears to be a different level to SSB, or Blue 2.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'd disagree, Vegeta's form does not appear to be Ultra Instinct, and the lead into the episode even called it "Vegeta's entirely different than Goku's power-up" or something of the sort. UI has been shown as normal black hair with a sheen to it combined with Silver-ish eyes. I'm with Raziere on this one, this more appears to be a different level to SSB, or Blue 2.

While it's somewhat refreshing to see the characters pursuing many paths to power rather than all following in Goku's footsteps (Gohan said that's what he was doing in the lead-up episode where he and Piccolo fought Goku and Tenshinhan, so it's not just Vegeta), there's a potential can of worms here that I don't think the writers will be able to help themselves from opening. Which is the "right" way?

[Mikeavelli]

Spoiler: Episode 123

Show

and ooh, 17 is willing to take one for the team to get rid of Toppo. thats gutsy. well that almost worked, but no cigar! and nothing of note really happened.

Spoiler

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I really wish this had worked. I'm already bored of Toppo, 17, and Gohan, and honestly the whole B-team from U11 has mostly been a waste of time. Toppo hasn't grown or developed beyond his initial characterization throughout the whole tournament. He's just a dude with big arms and a great big sack of power who deserves to take down one or two U7 fighters before getting ringed out.

Dyspo is even worse, he started out as a chump who wasn't on the same level as Hit, and has continued to fall in portrayed power ever since. The idea that he'll successfully ring out anyone at this point is almost insulting.

[Lord Raziere]

While it's somewhat refreshing to see the characters pursuing many paths to power rather than all following in Goku's footsteps (Gohan said that's what he was doing in the lead-up episode where he and Piccolo fought Goku and Tenshinhan, so it's not just Vegeta), there's a potential can of worms here that I don't think the writers will be able to help themselves from opening. Which is the "right" way?

You don't get martial arts stories if you ask that question: there is no right way. Its all about martial arts styles. One martial arts style is strong against others but weak against another. Some rely on pure power, some on skill, some on tricks, some on a combination of things, its all about leveraging your advantages. Granted its not very consistent that there is multiple paths to power, but thats Toriyama for you, he has never been all that consistent. the only wrong way is using what you got badly. its why fighting games puts everyone on the same level, differing only in the style of which they fight.

mostly because in Dragon Ball, having a "right way" would boil down to "be born a saiyan/wish yourself to become a saiyan" since paths to power are actually very tied up in biology in this universe. things like Ultra-Instinct and Golden Freeza as well as Red Jiren convince me otherwise though, since if anyone can attain UI and if Freeza and Jiren can attain those forms, then its possible for other species to attain power ups as well. they'd just do it differently than saiyans would. if you go with sacral chakra color theory, Freeza is just tapping into the same chakra as super saiyan, while Jiren is just tapping into the same chakra as super saiyan god to get their power ups. while Ribrianne is clearly using something similar to the spirit bomb in her love powers to get her forms, while Ganos clearly went super-thunderbird form.

[Gandariel]

Just came in to say, these last episodes (122 and 123) are *really* hyping me up!

The animations, the music, the action. And the cuts to Zen-oh are legitimately hilarious!

[Starwulf]

Ya know, I'm trying to figure out if I would have been upset, or really, really pleased with Toriyama if he had allowed

Spoiler

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Jiren to be ringed out by Goku when he used the Hexa Destructo Disc to cut the rock off and then used Instant Transmission to go above him and kick him fully out of the ring. I mean, I could see myself going either way with it. Angry because I'd have felt robbed from what is supposed to be an epic fight that I'm hoping involves Goku going UI again, but completely this time, defense AND offense. Pleased because it would be a complete "Ha ha, fooled you all" + "See, power doesn't always matter, sometimes it's brains" moment, and we really don't get those all that often in Dragon Ball. Plus it would have been so hilarious to see U11's GoD and Supreme Kai's faces when Jiren showed up next to them.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Speculation

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So Vegeta doesn't get offensive UI after all...

...Assuming that Gohandoesn't get ringed out.... Maybe he'll get the offensive half?

Think about it: Before the Tournament, Gohan said that he wasn't going to be satisfied with just getting his Ultimate Form back and wanted to go beyond it.

His Ultimate Form is proportionately about as Strong as Super Saiyan Blue due to it accessing all of his hidden potential and the boost from his power ups.

Goku's Ultra Instinct Omen does the same, as is said to shatter all the barriers between himself and his true potential, and gives him Ultra Instinct and gives him both the power and the skill versions Pure Progress(The abillity to automatically grow stronger or more skilled in response to Enemy action)

It's basically a Better Version of the Ultimate Form.

UIO was foreshadowed by claims of Goku using Kaioken in Blue to break his limits, and Gohan has got to be near his limit if he's got his Ultimate Form back.

And then finish the Tournament with a Father-Son Kamehameha

[khadgar567]

Spoiler: Speculation

Show

So Vegeta doesn't get offensive UI after all...

...Assuming that Gohandoesn't get ringed out.... Maybe he'll get the offensive half?

Think about it: Before the Tournament, Gohan said that he wasn't going to be satisfied with just getting his Ultimate Form back and wanted to go beyond it.

His Ultimate Form is proportionately about as Strong as Super Saiyan Blue due to it accessing all of his hidden potential and the boost from his power ups.

Goku's Ultra Instinct Omen does the same, as is said to shatter all the barriers between himself and his true potential, and gives him Ultra Instinct and gives him both the power and the skill versions Pure Progress(The abillity to automatically grow stronger or more skilled in response to Enemy action)

It's basically a Better Version of the Ultimate Form.

UIO was foreshadowed by claims of Goku using Kaioken in Blue to break his limits, and Gohan has got to be near his limit if he's got his Ultimate Form back.

And then finish the Tournament with a Father-Son Kamehameha

I will disagree with you on single pretense super saiyan blue not have transparent layer of ultra instinct on when idiot duo first transform but when mr. arrogance transform it it has transparent layer of ultra instinct so he archived the instinct but we currently dont know its "omen" or "vengeance" form and i think gohan gonna get third variant due going complete different road. gohan gets ultra instinct "enlightenment" . while idiot duo learn via their fists. gohan learns via self enlightment.

[Lemmy]

What the hell is a this talk of UI Omen ans UI Vengeance? Did they at any point say anything about multiple versions of UI? I only remeber they saying Goku can't fully use it...

[khadgar567]

What the hell is a this talk of UI Omen ans UI Vengeance? Did they at any point say anything about multiple versions of UI? I only remeber they saying Goku can't fully use it...

only omen is currently canon. the vengeance and enlightenment are names i used to refer the three different paths goku, vegita and gohan took to unlock ultra instict of their parts so vengeance and enlightenment are non canon names just to theory craft for next episodes

[Rater202]

What the hell is a this talk of UI Omen ans UI Vengeance? Did they at any point say anything about multiple versions of UI? I only remeber they saying Goku can't fully use it...

A couple of sources(Dokkan Battle, off the top of my head) give "Ultra Instinct Omen" or "Ultra Instinct Sign" as the name of the Transformation that Gives Goku Ultra Instinct. Since the form does more than just give Goku that power, I figure being specific is important

Ultra Instinct Vengence, on the other hand, seems to be something that khadgar567 made up or heard from somebody who made it up based on the now jossed fan theory that since Goku only has "perfect, institual defense," Vegeta would get perfect, instinctual offense Ultra Instinct.

As for there being differant kinds, well, Whis(The master) and, in the Manga, Beerus(only just learning) use a passive form of Ultra Instinct that doesn't require a transformation. Goku on the other hand gains it as the result of a specific form that also allows him to tap his full potential and automatically grow in both skill and power in response to his enemies. This is known.

[Lemmy]

Goku on the other hand gains it as the result of a specific form that also allows him to tap his full potential and automatically grow in both skill and power in response to his enemies. This is known.

Wait... Where is that stated?

[Rater202]

Wait... Where is that stated?

It's explicitly stated that Goku's UI form shatters every one of his limits and barriers, his "self-limiting shells," and he demonstrably grows stronger and/or more skilled as he fights using it and powers up without consciusly doing so.

[Lemmy]

It's explicitly stated that Goku's UI form shatters every one of his limits and barriers, his "self-limiting shells," and he demonstrably grows stronger and/or more skilled as he fights using it and powers up without consciously doing so.

Where? From what I recall, Whis says UI makes the person able to attack/defend without having to think about it, a response faster than even subconscious reflexes. IIRC, Goku getting better at it was more about him "getting the knack of it" than UI instantly making him stronger... Similar to how he and Gohan spent all the time as Super Saiyan to get better at using that form.

Goku becomes stronger with the transformation because... Well.. That's what saiyan transformations do.

[Lord Raziere]

Goku becomes stronger with the transformation because... Well.. That's what saiyan transformations do.

Anyone can achieve ultra Instinct. Not a saiyan transformation. technically its not even a transformation, considering its entirely internal.

[Devonix]

Anyone can achieve ultra Instinct. Not a saiyan transformation. technically its not even a transformation, considering its entirely internal.

It's actually been stated that using Ultra Instinct implicitly doesn't make him stronger. In fact several times it commented on his attacks being weaker when using the technique. All it does is heighten his awareness and let him react better.

[Lord Raziere]

It's actually been stated that using Ultra Instinct implicitly doesn't make him stronger. In fact several times it commented on his attacks being weaker when using the technique. All it does is heighten his awareness and let him react better.

Which of course means its closer to a form of enlightenment or enhancement of his mind than a transformation. Given that Whis talks about gods of Destruction in general trying to achieve this state, I think we can take it as given that it something anyone can learn seeing as how GoD's are very diverse biologically speaking. Also: it makes sense from a standardization perspective on the gods part of designing life in general. you design something like Ultra Instinct into all beings and your Angels can teach all your GoDs a universal power up of incredible power because its based upon minds rather than bodies.

and given that Vegeta talks about achieving power his own way and achieved Blue 2 completely consciously by thinking of Cabba and his promise, which is as far from Ultra-Instinct as you can get, that Vegeta didn't get it. Thought and Ultra-Instinct are things that are inherently opposed, as those attacks being weaker are because Goku thinks too much about it.

[Rater202]

It's actually been stated that using Ultra Instinct implicitly doesn't make him stronger. In fact several times it commented on his attacks being weaker when using the technique. All it does is heighten his awareness and let him react better.

Again, it is stated that the "shells" that limit his power have all been broken by the transformation and he is demonstrably more powerful in UIO than he is in Blue Kaioken.

In fact, I'm pretty sure his offenses don't get weaker in UI, it's just that they're no wehre near as good as his defenses due tohim being defense specced in UI. Becuase he doesn't need to think to defend but needs to think to attack.

[Lord Raziere]

Again, it is stated that the "shells" that limit his power have all been broken by the transformation and he is demostrably more powerful in UIO than he is in Blue Kaioken.

Doesn't mean he is actually inherently stronger. it just means that, its like typing: the more you consciously think about it, the less effective you are. basically what Ultra-Instinct does is make your subconscious do all that fighting, the same parts of brain that make using your hand automatic are now making harnessing your power and fighting automatic. if we had to tell our hands how to do everything using conscious thought, it'd take weeks to make any movement at all with it, much less our entire body.

[Lemmy]

Doesn't mean he is actually inherently stronger. it just means that, its like typing: the more you consciously think about it, the less effective you are. basically what Ultra-Instinct does is make your subconscious do all that fighting, the same parts of brain that make using your hand automatic are now making harnessing your power and fighting automatic. if we had to tell our hands how to do everything using conscious thought, it'd take weeks to make any movement at all with it, much less our entire body.

Exactly. What I understood is that UI is some sort of hyper-awareness thing that makes people act/react faster and more skillfully than they could otherwise...

However, Goku becomes obviously stronger as well when he's in UI form... Which is what I find odd. So I assume that happens because Goku achieves UI as part of a saiyan transformation (but yes, it's theoretically possible for anyone to achieve UI... They just don't get a transformation along with it, AFAICT).

[Devonix]

Again, it is stated that the "shells" that limit his power have all been broken by the transformation and he is demonstrably more powerful in UIO than he is in Blue Kaioken.

In fact, I'm pretty sure his offenses don't get weaker in UI, it's just that they're no wehre near as good as his defenses due tohim being defense specced in UI. Becuase he doesn't need to think to defend but needs to think to attack.

During his fight with Kefla it was commented on that his attacks while coming faster and more accurate were actually weaker than before.

[Rater202]

From what I've managed to scrounge together from the show and side content, the Transformation is basically Gohan's Potential Unlocked form on 'roids--In addition to Ultra instinct, it removes the limits on his potential(Again, it is explicitly stated that his self limiting shells have been broken), granting him full access to his power, gives him the same "Pure Progress*" abillity that Hit Has, or at least something similar to it, which is to say that he can intantly improve in skill and/or power as a direct result of experiance.

*Name taken from Xenoverse 2.

Edit:Having reviewed the footage: Right before UIO Goku is revealed, Elder Kai comments that the Entire World of Void(The dimension between the Universes that they're fight in) is trembling from Goku's power. The Kai of Universe eleven freaks out about howfast Goku is "gaining" on Jiren, the Xenos explicitly state that Goku suddenly got muh stronger, and Whis explicitly states that his belief is that Goku shattered the through the Shell that was limiting his potential and activated Ultra Instinct to gain the power to resist the explosion from the Spirit Bomb singularity(Implying that he wasn't strong enough to survive it in Blue.)

So yeah, UIO Goku is much more powerful and per 11 Kai's comment does rapidly increase in skill and/or power.

[Lord Raziere]

From what I've managed to scrounge together from the show and side content, the Transformation is basically Gohan's Potential Unlocked form on 'roids--In addition to Ultra instinct, it removes the limits on his potential(Again, it is explicitly stated that his self limiting shells have been broken), granting him full access to his power, gives him the same "Pure Progress*" abillity that Hit Has, or at least something similar to it, which is to say that he can intantly improve in skill and/or power as a direct result of experiance.

*Name taken from Xenoverse 2

Ok seriously, what. Did Toriyama just get tired of other anime having ridiculously hax abilities and say "screw them, let me show you guys how the original does sharingan"? just one of those three upgrades would be powerful enough on its own, but together hes basically giving Goku free reign to just improve infinitely in eternal matrix kung-fu action.

either that or the information hasn't become consistent yet and we have to wait until we get more set in stone information

[Rater202]

Ok seriously, what. Did Toriyama just get tired of other anime having ridiculously hax abilities and say "screw them, let me show you guys how the original does sharingan"? just one of those three upgrades would be powerful enough on its own, but together hes basically giving Goku free reign to just improve infinitely in eternal matrix kung-fu action.

either that or the information hasn't become consistent yet and we have to wait until we get more set in stone information

Check my edit, I checked the footage and that's from the mouths of Gods and Angels.

And to be fair, there's basically no point to Goku getting another level of Transformation after this so this may well simply be Goku's ultimate form... Well, Penultimate if you count Master UI as seperate.

There's a reason why I speculated that it would be Gohan and not Vegeta who got the "mindless attack" version of UI: Gohan explcitly said that he wants to go past his Ultimate form and his Ultimate Form is already 1/3 of the way to Goku's Ultra Instinct form.

[khadgar567]

Check my edit, I checked the footage and that's from the mouths of Gods and Angels.

And to be fair, there's basically no point to Goku getting another level of Transformation after this so this may well simply be Goku's ultimate form... Well, Penultimate if you count Master UI as seperate.

There's a reason why I speculated that it would be Gohan and not Vegeta who got the "mindless attack" version of UI: Gohan explcitly said that he wants to go past his Ultimate form and his Ultimate Form is already 1/3 of the way to Goku's Ultra Instinct form.

we are forgetting the good old super saiyan 4 but considering we took wrong turn from Albuquerque and end up gaining blue unless 4 is re introduced current power levels are not solid enough and vegita kinda dodged super saiyan 2 blue when he get his last power up. check the super saiyan 2 carefully it has glowing hair and vegita's hair did glow for a second when he powering up for his newest from so. its sounds kinda crazy but we might get ultra instinct kaioken xx ( inseart arbitrary high number) super saiyan 4 blue if this goes to long.

[Lord Raziere]

Check my edit, I checked the footage and that's from the mouths of Gods and Angels.

And to be fair, there's basically no point to Goku getting another level of Transformation after this so this may well simply be Goku's ultimate form... Well, Penultimate if you count Master UI as seperate.

There's a reason why I speculated that it would be Gohan and not Vegeta who got the "mindless attack" version of UI: Gohan explcitly said that he wants to go past his Ultimate form and his Ultimate Form is already 1/3 of the way to Goku's Ultra Instinct form.

It'd better be his ultimate form. I don't think we can get any more ridiculous, form wise, Toriyama doesn't like doing one-winged angel stuff and keeps his transformations pretty practical, so any more improvement would be purely functional rather than anything visual or obvious.

as for Gohan.....well that does make sense. Vegeta doesn't really seem like an enlightenment kind of guy anyways. let Vegeta be the Prince of All Saiyans and thus get the most saiyan-based power ups, the Son's on the other hand have a history of getting power from other sources. while the Vegeta/Briefs fighters seem to be going a more pure saiyan route to power.

[Anteros]

What the hell is a this talk of UI Omen ans UI Vengeance? Did they at any point say anything about multiple versions of UI? I only remeber they saying Goku can't fully use it...

Nope. It's basically all just speculation and fan fiction. There's a lot of that going on right now.

Although, to be fair...the show itself kinda follows a lot of bad fanfiction trends lately as well.