RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

[Callos_DeTerran]

Oh so a lot of build up so he can get killed by someone other than his dedicated rival characters who need to beat him to grow as characters? I'll be honest I'm fine with that, having some rando (effectively) killing Adam instead of Blake is satisfying in it's non-satisfying nature, in ways Roman and Cinder weren't. Adam is such a piss baby he doesn't even get to be ended by Blake. She's above him in that sense, and her verbal lashing is PROBABLY enough. I still kinda want Yang to gank him (he owes her an arm) but it'd actually be fitting for Adam to be killed by someone barely related to the personal conflicts. Unlike Roman and Cinder.

And yeah Adam got so completely squashed in Haven it's honestly insulting they want us to consider him a badass.

Weird thing is that...I've actually become more okay with Cinder's demise if she actually perished there the more I think about it.

Don't get me wrong, having Cinder defeated by the main heroes would still be preferable but...

I don't know...its just sort of hit me that Cinder was killed (again, assuming she was) by her own motivation to acquire more and more power. She took her eye off the ball and got greedy...

I don't know if I can properly explain why I'm feelings have changed on this, but recently just been struck that I actually found Cinder's end satisfying...not great (that'd require the main characters) but satisfying.

And there you go including Roman among the main villains again, silly Zodiac.

[Rater202]

I again would state that Roman being eaten alive by a Grimm works when you consider that he was very clearly pissed off and not in control of his anger and giving a negativity filled rant while surrounded by monsters who had long been established to be attracted to and feed upon human negativity.

Also, the irony of him dying just as he states that his anger and ruthlessness is what lets him survive.

[Ramza00]

This implies Blake could beat Qrow by bonking him over the head with the hilt of her sword.

Though given she IS a black cat, it WOULD be just his luck wouldn't it.

Nope, the way to defeat Qrow, is utilizing which outfit you are wearing.

[LaZodiac]

Nope, the way to defeat Qrow, is utilizing which outfit you are wearing.

I was referring to how Blake beat Adam in the battle for Haven with that line.

If Roman wasn't meant to be a big deal they shouldn't of made him beat Ruby solo and beat Blake and Wukong in a 1v2 fight.

[Lord Raziere]

I again would state that Roman being eaten alive by a Grimm works when you consider that he was very clearly pissed off and not in control of his anger and giving a negativity filled rant while surrounded by monsters who had long been established to be attracted to and feed upon human negativity.

Also, the irony of him dying just as he states that his anger and ruthlessness is what lets him survive.

Problem is, all the other villains aren't really any different, since they experience a lot of negative emotions as well, so it makes no sense why only he would get that treatment.

like, for him to be wrong, all the other villains would have to be happy sorts that want to force everyone into happiness as well. which wouldn't honestly make more sense as villains you can see arising in a world negative emotion attracted beasts.

[Rater202]

Problem is, all the other villains aren't really any different, since they experience a lot of negative emotions as well, so it makes no sense why only he would get that treatment.

like, for him to be wrong, all the other villains would have to be happy sorts that want to force everyone into happiness as well. which wouldn't honestly make more sense as villains you can see arising in a world negative emotion attracted beasts.

Roman was the only villain who 1: Was surrounded by Grimm, 2: Had his guard down, and 3: Was feeling and expressing a great deal of negative emotion right then in that moment.

Basically, he forgot himself in the moment and paid for it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I was referring to how Blake beat Adam in the battle for Haven with that line.

If Roman wasn't meant to be a big deal they shouldn't of made him beat Ruby solo and beat Blake and Wukong in a 1v2 fight.

You mean after they brought Roman back after he was supposed to disappear at the end of Volume 2 because fans wanted more of him?

Yeah, I'm not surprised he 'beat' Ruby after that decision was made. And he didn't beat Blake and Wukong either...well...do you define win as managing to make his escape? Cause that he did.

[The Fury]

Those weren't really Sienna's bodyguards though. They were loyal to Adam, not her. Presumably he'd had someone organise the guard roster to put his people there in preparation. A lot of Adam's most loyal followers are now in the custody of the Mystral police, which limits him a lot.

Yang went at him without thinking, right into his charged blade, and paid the price for that. I assume that charged draw and strike attack is his semblance, and it is one of the best tactical semblances we've seen, but it can be countered. Without it he's good, like Qrow or Raven levels, but I think he can be beaten.

IMO you fight Adam by being a lot smarter. Train more. Talk to Blake and Ilia about how he fights and work out how to counter that. Don't let him charge his blade, or make him waste the charge on an illusion. Maybe get him angry so he isn't fighting smart; the same tactic that Neon used on Yang. A few cow puns ought to do the trick .

Just to clarify, I did not mean to suggest that Blake using a misdirect and sucker-punching Adam was the only plausible and dramatically appropriate way for him to be defeated ever, period. Rather, I meant that given the way Volume 5 was structured and what came before in that Volume... this was probably the best that we could have gotten.

So, yes, absolutely there are plenty of ways that Adam could have been defeated at Haven if they were appropriately set up. Breaking down characters that could've taken Adam down and why I think the writers chose to go the way they did--

Yang: Like you mentioned, Yang training and preparing for a rematch could make her a serious contender. Only she didn't do any training or specific preparation to counter his fighting style. Indeed the only thing she does know about his fighting style, is that when she tried throwing a Semblance-charged haymaker at him, she lost an arm. She could plausibly gain some insight into how to fight him by talking to Blake or Ilia... except those two were both in Menagerie for nearly the whole Volume. Yang might be able to get somewhere by being a little more savvy and probing for weak points, but that could just as easily backfire leaving her with one less limb again.

Ilia: Ilia has some personal stake in a confrontation with Adam. Being as how she was a loyal follower of his for a while before choosing to work against him. There's also the whole Love Triangle thing where she was pining over Blake. She probably understands his fighting style the best of anyone, having worked closely with him for as long as she had. Though as characters with a personal stake against Adam go, hers seems kind of weak, and she already lost a fight with Blake earlier in the Volume.

Sun: He's sort of put himself in the unofficial role of Blake's protector. I seem to recall he had a brief scuffle with Adam where he held his own pretty well, (Maybe I'm misremembering, but I'd rather not rewatch the Haven battle again.) But in terms of it being exciting or dramatically appropriate, it doesn't really work because his stake in the fight would just be protecting Blake.

Blake: As personal stakes go, she probably has the strongest of anyone. This is really her fight. She has the most personal history with Adam and he tried his darnedest to ruin her life. She's already demonstrated that her Semblance is convincing enough to fool Adam, and even if it's not shown it seems perfectly in character for her to train and prepare a strategy specifically to fight him. And to top it off, when Blake and Adam met at Beacon, he forced her to run away scared. At Haven Blake forced him to do the same.

Is it the encounter I really wanted to see? No. Not by a long shot, (Adam against a tag-team of Yang, Blake and Ilia could've been cool.) The issue here is more the way Volume 5 was plotted and how the whole Haven battle was set up, (only characters that were outside could've even known he was there, so that denies Yang her rematch right off the bat.) From what I have heard of Volume 5's production, I feel like if the writers were given more of a chance to refine their ideas we might've gotten something a lot more satisfying, but as it was we got something... OK.

[LaZodiac]

You mean after they brought Roman back after he was supposed to disappear at the end of Volume 2 because fans wanted more of him?

Yeah, I'm not surprised he 'beat' Ruby after that decision was made. And he didn't beat Blake and Wukong either...well...do you define win as managing to make his escape? Cause that he did.

He's a small time crook. Even in an anime he shouldn't be able to take on two of our heroes. Not only two of our heroes, but one of whom was just introduced so it's time to show him how he can shine to make him possibly likeable. But all he did was show up to prove racists right and get beat up by Roman who is just amused by the whole situation. It's no wonder people like him.

[Excession]

Just to clarify, I did not mean to suggest that Blake using a misdirect and sucker-punching Adam was the only plausible and dramatically appropriate way for him to be defeated ever, period. Rather, I meant that given the way Volume 5 was structured and what came before in that Volume... this was probably the best that we could have gotten.

So, yes, absolutely there are plenty of ways that Adam could have been defeated at Haven if they were appropriately set up. Breaking down characters that could've taken Adam down and why I think the writers chose to go the way they did--

Sorry, yes, I misunderstood you. I was thinking more about a future fight. For the volume 5 I think it was okay. Blake managing to knock him down (which was all she did really) did demonstrate that Adam fights poorly when he's angry. He attacked without thinking and gave up his balance to do it. I'm not quite sure why Adam was the only one to run is all, as I would have thought other White Fang members might have tried to leg it as well. Perhaps that just wasn't shown, and they got picked up by the police.

I also think it wasn't the end of Adam's arc yet. I hope that he will be defeated on screen later, but first he has to lose everything he loves*. Blake, power in the White Fang, the prospect of war with humans, etc.

* For certain sociopathic definitions of love at least.

Roman was the only villain who 1: Was surrounded by Grimm, 2: Had his guard down, and 3: Was feeling and expressing a great deal of negative emotion right then in that moment.

Basically, he forgot himself in the moment and paid for it.

Another possibility is that Salem or Cinder gave out sort of charm to make the grimm ignore her minions. While Neo could have had that, Roman wouldn't have because he was locked in the brig. After Neo headed off to test her landing strategy Roman was back on the menu.

[Callos_DeTerran]

He's a small time crook. Even in an anime he shouldn't be able to take on two of our heroes. Not only two of our heroes, but one of whom was just introduced so it's time to show him how he can shine to make him possibly likeable. But all he did was show up to prove racists right and get beat up by Roman who is just amused by the whole situation. It's no wonder people like him.

You know I'm just poking fun at you now, right? We both have argued our stances on Roman quite a bit after all.

[LaZodiac]

You know I'm just poking fun at you now, right? We both have argued our stances on Roman quite a bit after all.

I know I'm just playing along. I fell on my way to work today so I'm in a good deal of pain and want to lighten up.

[Lethologica]

Our heroes are too powerful and face no meaningful challenges or stakes through the first couple seasons. But also it's dumb that the first season's main villain is stronger than our heroes. But also it's dumb that he got chumped by a Grimm in the end.

[LaZodiac]

Our heroes are too powerful and face no meaningful challenges or stakes through the first couple seasons. But also it's dumb that the first season's main villain is stronger than our heroes. But also it's dumb that he got chumped by a Grimm in the end.

I mean he's NOT, he's the minion of the main villain of that arc, and like...they don't face any meaningful challenge or stakes, Roman kicks their ass and nothing happens because Penny destroys all the stuff there anyway and it was just like two crates out of a thousand already gathered so it doesn't really matter.

It will never not be dumb that our main character will never get to actually prove herself against her initial foe. It's like with Bleach, where Ichigo never gets to actually beat the Fisher King.

[The Fury]

Sorry, yes, I misunderstood you. I was thinking more about a future fight. For the volume 5 I think it was okay. Blake managing to knock him down (which was all she did really) did demonstrate that Adam fights poorly when he's angry. He attacked without thinking and gave up his balance to do it. I'm not quite sure why Adam was the only one to run is all, as I would have thought other White Fang members might have tried to leg it as well. Perhaps that just wasn't shown, and they got picked up by the police.

I also think it wasn't the end of Adam's arc yet. I hope that he will be defeated on screen later, but first he has to lose everything he loves*. Blake, power in the White Fang, the prospect of war with humans, etc.

* For certain sociopathic definitions of love at least.

Hey, to your credit I'm not so awesome at making myself understood. As for a future encounter, Yang getting a rematch would be cool. Especially since her fight with the bandits seems to suggest that she's more cunning than she was before and now seems to use her Semblance more judiciously. Hey, maybe the Blake/Ilia/Yang tag team might happen after all!

As for Adam losing everything he loves... He's pretty far along on that track already. The White Fang appears to be mostly routed, and the prospect of an all out war with the Faunus against humanity is going down the drain fast. Blake hasn't been romantically interested in him for a long time now, but the final blow to his ego would probably be when it's clear that he can't hurt her anymore.

...Aaand having typed that, Adam's relationship with Blake somehow seems even more messed up.

I know I'm just playing along. I fell on my way to work today so I'm in a good deal of pain and want to lighten up.

Man, sorry to hear about that. Hope you're better soon.

[Reddish Mage]

I mean he's NOT, he's the minion of the main villain of that arc, and like...they don't face any meaningful challenge or stakes, Roman kicks their ass and nothing happens because Penny destroys all the stuff there anyway and it was just like two crates out of a thousand already gathered so it doesn't really matter.

It will never not be dumb that our main character will never get to actually prove herself against her initial foe. It's like with Bleach, where Ichigo never gets to actually beat the Fisher King.

I think you overstress your points. Roman escaping to continue his attacking after sending Blake, Sun and Ruby on their asses is plenty was quite enough at the time. Back then, you’ve wanted a really darker show where the challenges and stakes were bloody, emotional, and gut-wrenching. They did finally delivered that, towards the end of Season 3, but you don’t seem sensitive to it anymore. I really think the one thing you focus on at that most significant point in the series so far, is that Roman got killed like a chump.

Case in point: the Fisher King really doesn’t matter. He isn’t even really the first antagonist, and he isn’t all that important. He just happens to have an emotional connection to Ichigo because he killed Ichigo’s mom. The guy is forgettable, and you could easily write him out of Bleach without making much impact.

[Lord Raziere]

Case in point: the Fisher King really doesn’t matter. He isn’t even really the first antagonist, and he isn’t all that important. He just happens to have an emotional connection to Ichigo because he killed Ichigo’s mom. The guy is forgettable, and you could easily write him out of Bleach without making much impact.

Well thats what you get for watching Bleach. Almost nothing in that series has any emotional impact. the only strength Bleach had was coming up with a mythology/setting thats interesting in theory and good for building fan characters for, but the author was horrible at executing in practice.

[LaZodiac]

I think you overstress your points. Roman escaping to continue his attacking after sending Blake, Sun and Ruby on their asses is plenty was quite enough at the time. Back then, you’ve wanted a really darker show where the challenges and stakes were bloody, emotional, and gut-wrenching. They did finally delivered that, towards the end of Season 3, but you don’t seem sensitive to it anymore. I really think the one thing you focus on at that most significant point in the series so far, is that Roman got killed like a chump.

Case in point: the Fisher King really doesn’t matter. He isn’t even really the first antagonist, and he isn’t all that important. He just happens to have an emotional connection to Ichigo because he killed Ichigo’s mom. The guy is forgettable, and you could easily write him out of Bleach without making much impact.

I probably do overstress my points, yeah. Ultimately I've learned to accept RWBY isn't the series I've been told to expect it to be, and now I'm just sorta left with this series that...basically just kind of is there. When I see something that feels like a pretty clear error I want to point it out since it feels so obvious. Ruby got beaten pretty easily by Roman, it'd be a cool show of how much she's grown to see her beat him. And now she won't get to.

The Fisher King killed Ichigo's Mom. He super matters. He was turned into an Arrancar by Aizen, and has a direct relationship to the main hero, PLUS had a fight with him where the hero LOST. This is a very clear and obvious set up for a dramatic fight! He should matter way more than he did, and the guy being forgettable and easily removable from the series is NOT a sign of him being a bad character that's not important, and more a sign that Bleach is terrible.

[Rater202]

Guys... Grand Fisher.

Not Fisher King.

Also, he didn't kill Ichigo's mother so much as he happened to be present when she died.

This is foreshadowed by him having no idea who she was and by Isshin explicitly stating that no, he hasn't gotten his vengeance after killing him.

Ichigo just assumed she was responsible due to having incomplete knowledge of what happened.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I probably do overstress my points, yeah. Ultimately I've learned to accept RWBY isn't the series I've been told to expect it to be, and now I'm just sorta left with this series that...basically just kind of is there. When I see something that feels like a pretty clear error I want to point it out since it feels so obvious. Ruby got beaten pretty easily by Roman, it'd be a cool show of how much she's grown to see her beat him. And now she won't get to.

You never know, fan support brought Roman back the first time...

Anyway, I am wondering who told you to expect RWBY to be a series like that? I mean, you can kind of expect it from the trailers up until you get to the Yellow trailer and I do enjoy watching your reactions to the series.

[LaZodiac]

You never know, fan support brought Roman back the first time...

Anyway, I am wondering who told you to expect RWBY to be a series like that? I mean, you can kind of expect it from the trailers up until you get to the Yellow trailer and I do enjoy watching your reactions to the series.

He's pretty definitively dead at this point. The only way he comes back is if it turns out getting nommed on by a Grimm protected him from the battleship explosion and ended up corrupting his whole body like Cinder's arm. Even then Neo would have to find him and I just really doubt she's ever going to come back.

I don't...actually remember WHO told me RWBY was like how I thought it was. I know I mentioned I saw some clips of it to Rawhide and he was like "you should watch the whole thing if you want" and I took that as a challenge. I think based purely on the very infrequent hearsay I had seen at the time I came up with a faint picture of what it was going to be, and then I saw some clips of it and it was like "hmm wow this is bad" and I compared it to Freezing (which I want to point out again is a very incorrect statement. RWBY is bad but not that bad) and the rest is history I suppose.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I compared it to Freezing (which I want to point out again is a very incorrect statement. RWBY is bad but not that bad) and the rest is history I suppose.

I'm glad you clarified because those would have been legit fighting words otherwise.

Freezing was a special kind of awful, and this is coming from someone who likes fanservice animes and that sort of thing. Eesh, that was just an unappealing slog to get through...and I'm not even sure if I actually got through it or just got lost and rescued myself by abandoning the series.

[Reddish Mage]

He's pretty definitively dead at this point. The only way he comes back is if it turns out getting nommed on by a Grimm protected him from the battleship explosion and ended up corrupting his whole body like Cinder's arm. Even then Neo would have to find him and I just really doubt she's ever going to come back.

I don't...actually remember WHO told me RWBY was like how I thought it was.

I saw some clips of it and it was like "hmm wow this is bad" and I compared it to Freezing (which I want to point out again is a very incorrect statement. RWBY is bad but not that bad) and the rest is history I suppose.

You actually once honestly compared RWBY to Freezing? I thought we agree that fan-service anime is an unfair comparison. For one, regardless of whether a fan-service anime is good or bad, RWBY just isn’t about fan-service. The characters are not one-dimensional cutouts either, especially not anime types.

As far as Ruby’s arc finishing it with Roman...that part is pure fantasy. I can see someone watching Bleach and thinking that this Grand Fisher King guy is someone important to Ichigo. Roman is not that.

Ruby has no personal connection to Roman. He’s just a thief she ran into and battled (I guess he was her first ). Ruby interacts with him a couple of times, getting captured once, but most of the emotion in the relationship is Roman feeling Ruby is a frustratingly outsized threat to him. Meanwhile Roman-Blake have much more of a connection. Blake can’t stand that the White Fang is asking as muscle for him. At least here the animosity is mutual.

The thing about Ruby. She hasn’t had her big growth story yet. She is very much the same kid we meet in Volume 1, just aged a year with a few more moves (she can finally fight unarmed!).

You may want Ruby to have a growth story, there are several signs that she is the “main” protagonist and all. However, there was never any clear reason for Torchwick to be that story. Ruby has much more of a special connection with Cinder, if they were to go that route, especially by the time Torchwick appears for a final send off.

[LaZodiac]

The characters are not one-dimensional cutouts either, especially not anime types.

As far as Ruby’s arc finishing it with Roman...that part is pure fantasy. I can see someone watching Bleach and thinking that this Grand Fisher King guy is someone important to Ichigo. Roman is not that.

Ruby has no personal connection to Roman. He’s just a thief she ran into and battled (I guess he was her first ). Ruby interacts with him a couple of times, getting captured once, but most of the emotion in the relationship is Roman feeling Ruby is a frustratingly outsized threat to him. Meanwhile Roman-Blake have much more of a connection. Blake can’t stand that the White Fang is asking as muscle for him. At least here the animosity is mutual.

The thing about Ruby. She hasn’t had her big growth story yet. She is very much the same kid we meet in Volume 1, just aged a year with a few more moves (she can finally fight unarmed!).

You may want Ruby to have a growth story, there are several signs that she is the “main” protagonist and all. However, there was never any clear reason for Torchwick to be that story. Ruby has much more of a special connection with Cinder, if they were to go that route, especially by the time Torchwick appears for a final send off.

Arguable but I'll allow it. I want to make it clear I had only seen very few clips of it at the time and art. I compared it to Freezing because it was the worst thing I could think of at the moment that felt comparable in terms of aesthetic.

I'm not saying her arc finishes with Roman, I mean that her arc WITH ROMAN deserves to have a satisfying finish. He beat Ruby after months of schooling at the super warrior fight school, so it erases a lot of the work she's done because it's still not enough to beat a relatively common thug. It feels like it's a mistake is all. Like...let's say in a good series, like One Piece, that Luffy actually got beat by say...Alvida, of all people. Even though she's basically just a throw away character (ignoring that she comes back with a vengeance because there are no throw away characters in One Piece) Luffy losing to her is a big deal, because it's the first sign that our hero isn't perfect. That they're flawed in some way, typically they're too brash and inexperienced at that moment in time.

With Ruby, the next time she really interacts Roman is seeing Penny **** up his sky boats, showing her an example of what she could be if she worked hard enough. Next, she gets ambushed by his recruited terrorists and basically disregarded. She once again fails to make any real impact and fails to save the day again. So here we are, at what is going to be her last encounter with Roman. It's time to show that she's grown. She's still brash, but it's tempered with the learning she's done throughout the year. So she beats him, finally showing she's surpassed this guy and is now capable of moving on to bigger things. Which turns out to be something she can't handle, as Cinder has already killed Pyrrha and it's only thanks to her special power awakening that she herself is able to get away with her life. And so the cycle of finding yourself at a gate and having to surpass it continues.

Except in reality, when it became time for Ruby to pass Roman...Roman beat her basically without any effort and was killed unceremoniously for a cheap gag. So instead we're left with a hero who couldn't defeat a joke, trying to face an even greater gate she cannot even begin to get through.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I'm not saying her arc finishes with Roman, I mean that her arc WITH ROMAN deserves to have a satisfying finish. He beat Ruby after months of schooling at the super warrior fight school, so it erases a lot of the work she's done because it's still not enough to beat a relatively common thug. It feels like it's a mistake is all. Like...let's say in a good series, like One Piece, that Luffy actually got beat by say...Alvida, of all people. Even though she's basically just a throw away character (ignoring that she comes back with a vengeance because there are no throw away characters in One Piece) Luffy losing to her is a big deal, because it's the first sign that our hero isn't perfect. That they're flawed in some way, typically they're too brash and inexperienced at that moment in time.

With Ruby, the next time she really interacts Roman is seeing Penny **** up his sky boats, showing her an example of what she could be if she worked hard enough. Next, she gets ambushed by his recruited terrorists and basically disregarded. She once again fails to make any real impact and fails to save the day again. So here we are, at what is going to be her last encounter with Roman. It's time to show that she's grown. She's still brash, but it's tempered with the learning she's done throughout the year. So she beats him, finally showing she's surpassed this guy and is now capable of moving on to bigger things. Which turns out to be something she can't handle, as Cinder has already killed Pyrrha and it's only thanks to her special power awakening that she herself is able to get away with her life. And so the cycle of finding yourself at a gate and having to surpass it continues.

Except in reality, when it became time for Ruby to pass Roman...Roman beat her basically without any effort and was killed unceremoniously for a cheap gag. So instead we're left with a hero who couldn't defeat a joke, trying to face an even greater gate she cannot even begin to get through.

...What? Roman never beat Ruby at the beginning of the series. He tried to blow her up but...that was never going to work as anything other than a means for him to possibly get away. Roman saw what Ruby was able to do with her scythe and high-tailed it until Glynda made it obvious running away was not going to work and sicced Cinder on her until they could make their getaway.

[LaZodiac]

...What? Roman never beat Ruby at the beginning of the series. He tried to blow her up but...that was never going to work as anything other than a means for him to possibly get away. Roman saw what Ruby was able to do with her scythe and high-tailed it until Glynda made it obvious running away was not going to work and sicced Cinder on her until they could make their getaway.

Okay fair it's been awhile he didn't DIRECTLY beat it, it was Cinder, but he still avoided getting beat by her. I think it counts.

[The Fury]

Except in reality, when it became time for Ruby to pass Roman...Roman beat her basically without any effort and was killed unceremoniously for a cheap gag. So instead we're left with a hero who couldn't defeat a joke, trying to face an even greater gate she cannot even begin to get through.

Now that you point it out, between Roman's death and the Sienna Khan anticlimax, cheap gags seem to be the villains' main weakness. Cinder's the exception, getting frozen alive and dropping into an abyss isn't really a joke, cheap or otherwise. Ah well, nothing that the Wile E. Coyote falling-off-a-cliff sound can't fix.

[Calemyr]

Now that you point it out, between Roman's death and the Sienna Khan anticlimax, cheap gags seem to be the villains' main weakness. Cinder's the exception, getting frozen alive and dropping into an abyss isn't really a joke, cheap or otherwise. Ah well, nothing that the Wile E. Coyote falling-off-a-cliff sound can't fix.

Eh, I can see both Roman's and Sienna's deaths as a joke after a fashion, but I don't think they were meant as such.

I think Roman's was supposed to be shocking and to remind the audience that not only are Grimm drawn to negative emotions (which Roman was exuding at an epic rate at that time), but that neither Roman nor the White Fang actually had control over them. Also that even a random Grimm is enough to take out Roman if caught off guard, immediately after proving that Roman was superior in a straight up fight to Ruby. That should have made Salem, who does control the Grimm, much scarier. Note that he never took her seriously before that moment, because she wasn't really ever in the way of his job - she was a distraction that was better ignored than engaged. He didn't even take Blake all that seriously, preferring to banter with her rather than simply take her out. On the airship, though, Ruby represented a clear and present threat to his success. So the gloves came off. Unfortunately, shock is also a common element to humor, as is irony, so his sudden death (combined with last words about him being a survivor) comes off as a joke on initial viewing, and a bad one at that. I assert it wasn't meant to be, but that's how it turned out.

Sienna's is bad because of the short gap between her appearance and her death. Adam is presented as the de facto leader of the White Fang long before Sienna or Gira are introduced. And Sienna's "moderate" approach to activism isn't shown at all. Viewed from the perspective of the world, the death of Sienna Kahn is a major turning point, the moment all stops are removed from the organization, where we learn that Adam's activities so far are what he's capable of when he's being held back. Scatological curse words should be appropriate for this moment. When viewed from the perspective of the world, that is. Viewed from the perspective of the audience, however, she's a new character from out of nowhere who represents an ideology not shown in the series, who then dies suddenly shortly after her introduction to give Adam a role we'd been lead to believe he'd already held for a long time by that point. She's a throwaway character that is thrown away, and the fanfare spent on her introduction feels comically wasted, since she utterly failed to shift the status quo at all despite the buildup. It's made even worse because Adam then abruptly loses everything he gained the next season, making the whole thing feel so irrelevant you can't help but laugh at the tragedy.

So I guess maybe it's just my opinion, but I think RT just gambled on big efforts to raise the stakes and their failure comes off like a pratfall.

[Lethologica]

Roman's death is the refutation of his philosophy and the consequence of his own actions. His way of life depends on there being a society to exploit, someone to lie to, cheat, and steal from. But he has allied with himself with people who are not just parasites on society, but outright destructive. You can't con beasts, and they don't care whose friend you are. Roman's death highlights the decisive shift in antagonism from social menace to existential threat, which swallows up the lesser antagonism that came before - literally. No, Ruby doesn't get to beat him, and it's not satisfying as the climax of a dramatic arc, and that's the point. I think that was successfully portrayed.

Sienna's death doesn't get anything like that kind of meaning. I don't think it even represents what Calemyr said about Adam previously being held back, because it's not like he paid attention to any restraints Sienna may have placed on him when he chose to ally with Cinder.

[Calemyr]

Sienna's death doesn't get anything like that kind of meaning. I don't think it even represents what Calemyr said about Adam previously being held back, because it's not like he paid attention to any restraints Sienna may have placed on him when he chose to ally with Cinder.

Reasonable assertion, but I do think Adam was supposed to at least pay lip service to Sienna's authority. Until Beacon, he was considered an extremist that was a tolerable complication. After Beacon he become explicitly intolerable. I would suggest that this means that Adam was at least trying stay under the radar until then. Which only makes Sienna more useless, honestly, since his he crossed the event horizon before Sienna even showed up, much less when he killed her.