RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

[Lemmy]

I'll be honest, it doesn't sit well with me, either. Granted, I may have missed something, but it looks like his great sin was being overly affectionate to fans at cons, IE hugging and kisses on the cheek or forehead. Okay, yeah, not the best idea, especially without permission*, but is this a career-torching offense now? This isn't the casting couch/abuse of power the whole MeToo movement was created to fight.

* Believe me, I get this point. Nobody in my family likes to be hugged by strangers, it's just how we're wired, though we're more inclined to just object in the moment than hold it against the would-be hugger.

Also, I've written this about seven times since yesterday, because I know I'm going to get flambed for simply asking this. But I'm doing it anyway. Unless there's information I am missing, this strikes me as a perverse corruption of something incredibly important.

Precisely. And it's even worse when we consider than at least one of the photographs used as "evidence" had the girl in the photography literally come out and say that she had given him consent and that they were using that picture to attack Vic.

It makes sense if you look at it as RT hedging their bets and trying to protect their brand.

If he didn't do anything, then they can apologize and bring him back later once things settle down.

But if they had stood by him and then it turned out he had done something, then that's a PR hit that RT would never recover from and I don'tthink they're big enough to eat that hit.

That is all.

Well... I don't care. I refuse to support a company who acts follows the whims of the "guilty-until-proven-innocent" hate-mobs. So I'm cancelling my subscriptions to RT and letting them know exactly why.

The right to do would have been waiting until there's actual evidence. Not cave in to mob justice. Specially because his reputation and career are forever hurt by this crap, guilty or not. I've seen it happen too many times already.

[Calemyr]

It makes sense if you look at it as RT hedging their bets and trying to protect their brand.

If he didn't do anything, then they can apologize and bring him back later once things settle down.

But if they had stood by him and then it turned out he had done something, then that's a PR hit that RT would never recover from and I don'tthink they're big enough to eat that hit.

That is all.

I don't think you come back from this. You throw someone under the bus at the drop of a hat and I don't see how they ever get the tread marks out afterwards. If Vic is vindicated, he'd have to be a frickin' saint to so much as reply to an email from them much less take a call. Guy's got enough irons in the fire that I don't think he actually needs a regular role in a mid-tier web show to pay his rent. And I'd be surprised if his other ventures fall apart this absurdly easily.

And it's all just so... so stupid...

[Callos_DeTerran]

They fired one of the very few good VAs on the show over unsubstantiated allegations. With a very suspicious timing too.

I guess "guilty until proven innocent" is the new norm...

Well... Time to stop supporting RT.

I follow the majority of what you said but the suspicious timing bit is a new one. What's suspicious about the timing?

@Calemyr: I'd be more surprised if he didn't answer them back. RWBY is far from a mid-tier web show with how popular it is.

Edit: I was avoiding stating my opinion on the man himself or the situation, simply because there is no real evidence go be had that I've heard of (and at least some of the evidence has been dis-credited as is), but yeah. This is a decision from RT that I understand (as con-friendly as they are, they can't afford a scandal specifically like this one) but don't agree with personally. I don't know much about Vic the guy and I haven't done much research on it either, but he strikes me as more of a diva and a bit of an a-hole, but not a predator.

[Fyraltari]

Err can somebody link to an article or give me a quick recap of what's going on exactly?

[LaZodiac]

Err can somebody link to an article or give me a quick recap of what's going on exactly?

Vig Mignogna is a known Bad Person who does things that we can't discuss on this forum. It's "rumoured" and "suspected" but given the fact that not literally one single person in the voice acting community is defending him now that alegations are coming out full force and everyone I know in the business is like "Yeah this was an open secret" it's pretty much true.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Err can somebody link to an article or give me a quick recap of what's going on exactly?

I'm kind of loath to link to an article cause its difficult to find non-biase (in either direction) information on the topic as well as give a recap considering how little concrete information there is that I know.

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/...t-allegations/

That link seems to be presenting information from both sides though, so start there. In short, Vic Mignogna (the VA of Qrow) has come under fire of sexual assault/innapprobiate interaction allegations (as well as anti-Semitic/homophobic allegations, but those definitely seem to be fabrications) that could just be innocent interactions with fans at cons being mis represented or something more serious that has been going on for a while (Vic isn't a new name in this topic) just being brought up now. As a result RWBY has decided to recast Qrow's VA and quietly cut ties with Vic, Funimation has dropped him as well, and numerous conventions are cancelling his appearances though more have kept Vic panels up so far.

I'm personally looking at this through a very narrow lense to avoid being dragged into much thornier conversations and political talks, that lense being how it directly affects RWBY and how RWBY will move forward.

@LaZodiac: You know people in the VA community? Anyone I might know? I'm legitimately curious about this but my more contentious point is lets not declare something is true until it can be confirmed as such.

These are rather serious accusations after all, the kind that damage a person's life regardless of if they are true or not.

[Lemmy]

Vic is being accused without any evidence. Despite being followed by cameras all the time. The reason no one in the industry is daring to stand up for him is because they are all afraid of being the next target of the hate-mob.

It's disgusting to ruin a man's reputation and career because of unsubstantiated allegations. It's just as disgusting to imply that's an ok thing to do.

"Guilty until proven innocent" is a horrific way to deal with accusations. All it does is make everyone miserable and paranoid so that a certain ever-hateful mob can get their next dosage for their outrage addiction.

[Calemyr]

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/...t-allegations/

Well. That link at least provides allegations severe enough to make the action reasonable. Changes the landscape quite a bit. He still should have the opportunity to defend himself (even if every allegation is proven a lie, he'll never get his life back), but assault is definitely a more understandable cause for dismissal than "he hugged me".

[Callos_DeTerran]

Well. That link at least provides allegations severe enough to make the action reasonable. Changes the landscape quite a bit. He still should have the opportunity to defend himself (even if every allegation is proven a lie, he'll never get his life back), but assault is definitely a more understandable cause for dismissal than "he hugged me".

Like I said, the entire situation is incredibly murky right now which is why I'm trying not to form an opinion on the matter just yet. Even if the allegations are untrue, he acted in an unprofessional and unsafe (for himself and his fans) manner at conventions that invite this exact type of speculation and accusations. I'm personally inclined to believe that with how often Vic has been accused of these inappropriate interactions that there is definitely a kernel of truth buried somewhere in there. But...how severe it is, how true it is? Who knows?

I agree that he hasn't had the chance to defend himself and his career/life has suffered irreparable damage because of all this. And that's not right, not one bit. Nor should people be making up their minds before any kind of investigation is made into the matter by thoe qualified to make them. The other parties involved though like Rooster Teeth, Funimation, and various conventions (especially RT in this particular instance) still need to protect themselves and those who work for and attend their events. Especially considering all of these claims have to do with conventions and such and RT not only holds a massive convention every year but is very active on the convention scene, they can't afford to have people thinking they aren't safe at RT events. Funimation though? Them I'm casting unhappy looks at.

[Lemmy]

It's really easy to form a virtual mob to attack the guy.

Of course I could be wrong, but so far, I've seen literally zero evidence of Vic doing anything more than hug and maybe kiss on cheek some fans. Equating that to sexual assault is not only disingenuous and harmful to him, but downright disrespectful to victims of actual sexual assault. At worst, he made someone feel uncomfortable. His only crime is forgetting that people nowadays have criminalized any human contact. Anything can and will be used as an excuse for the hate-mobs to attack someone they don't like. Guilt is irrelevant for them.

I'm not even a fan of the man, but the way he's been attacked and condemned without any evidence is disgusting and infuriating.

Again, I could be wrong... Maybe someone will find evidence of Vic doing all the stuff he's been accused of... But somehow, I highly doubt it. And until evidence is provided, I'll assume the man is innocent. Even if others will not.

[Ramza00]

Remember we do not know what RT knows, we can only assume.

So go ahead and be outraged for when you are outraged, you in your own mind, automatically think you are right. That is the nature of human consciousness, our brains can create mind tricks where when we are offended, outraged, disgusted, shame, fear state, etc we automatically assume certain things to be true and our cognition / opinions on a matter literally shifts to a certain type of framework.

[Mechalich]

Vic is being accused without any evidence. Despite being followed by cameras all the time. The reason no one in the industry is daring to stand up for him is because they are all afraid of being the next target of the hate-mob.

Nah, the reason why no one in the industry is standing up for him is because everyone in the industry hates his guts, has for years, and has long been willing to openly say so in front of the fans at cons and similar events. Considering how close knit the North American professional community actually is its honestly amazing the guy has continued to find work for as long as he has.

[Lethologica]

It's so easy to form a virtual mob to attack the guy that it's taken well over a decade of allegations and rumors for one to finally surface. And assault has always been very difficult to produce evidence for (or against) because it is a crime of immediate intent...why, it's almost as difficult as producing a large quantity of independent allegations of harassment. There is plenty of room for reasonable doubt, but not enough, I think, to reserve all judgment.

[Lemmy]

Nah, the reason why no one in the industry is standing up for him is because everyone in the industry hates his guts, has for years, and has long been willing to openly say so in front of the fans at cons and similar events. Considering how close knit the North American professional community actually is its honestly amazing the guy has continued to find work for as long as he has.

That could be a factor too. I've heard he's difficult to work with, and he acts like a spoiled diva.

It's so easy to form a virtual mob to attack the guy that it's taken well over a decade of allegations and rumors for one to finally surface. And assault has always been very difficult to produce evidence for (or against) because it is a crime of immediate intent...why, it's almost as difficult as producing a large quantity of independent allegations of harassment. There is plenty of room for reasonable doubt, but not enough, I think, to reserve all judgment.

"Over a decade" because it's only recently that angry twitter mobs got the power to get people fired (which is ridiculous by itself). And it's suspicious, to say the least, that all these accusations come out right after Vic appears in a hugely popular movie. It's even worse when we see some of the accusers bragging about how they got Vic fired on the internet (and not in a "oh, I help bring justice to the victims", but in a very "I did this cool thing! Look how awesome I am!"), clearly wanting attention. Worse still is when at least one of photographs has the girl in it come out and say she had given consent to Vic and that said photograph was using maliciously to smear Vic's reputation.

Could Vic be guilty? Sure. It's in the realm of possibilities. But I honestly doubt it.

[Lethologica]

The allegations did not just start coming out after the movie. That would be three months, not well over a decade. Ms. Pridemore told her story in 2011, for example.

Please note that no one has argued that all the accusations are true, or that all the reporting was perfectly accurate.

[Delicious Taffy]

You know, this reminds me of the situation surrounding JewWario. Especially the bit about the "Risembool Rangers" fan club, or cult, or whatever it is. I kinda have a bad feeling this is gonna get real dark, real fast.

[Calemyr]

There are two parts to this, in my mind.

The first is the actual assault accusation. That is big and needs to be investigated. He isn't guilty in my mind, not yet, but he's suspect and such claims cannot be dismissed out of hand.

The second is all the rest, which I have a hard time taking seeing as anything but an ideology driven hit-piece spurred on for a few primary reasons:
1) He's a professed Christian. Non-Christians often feel judged by Christians even if there's no judgment going on at all. That leads to hostilities in some people.
2) He doesn't sign "yaoi" fan art at cons. Whether this is because of his faith or his expressed reason of "I don't sign anything that's not canon", this is viewed as homophobia.
3) His behavior with fans is far more gregarious and tactile than the norm. Whether innocently intended or not, this can make people uncomfortable.
4) Suggestions that he doesn't mesh well with his peers paints him in a less than sympathetic light.

This makes him "The Enemy" to a subsection of people fond of using social media as a weapon against those who don't think like they do, a group that does not hesitate to use exaggerated claims to hurt those they perceive as enemies. I am not a fan of such behavior.

All in all, I'm inclined to agree with Callos. RT's stake is very much in conventions and even the supposition of impropriety is enough damage them severely. Ejecting him as quietly as possible was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction but fair given their position. Funimation, however, would have probably been better served placing him on suspension pending investigation rather than severing ties immediately.

Seeing this happen is a bummer, though. I remember seeing the YouTube clip of him doing a phone prank with some convention goers, then apologizing profusely when someone's mother took the call too seriously before he could get to the punchline. He always struck me as a pretty standup guy. If the accusation is true, however, he wouldn't be the first "standup guy" to fall to corrupting nature of celebrity. Either way, it's depressing to see.

[Ramza00]

He always struck me as a pretty standup guy. If the accusation is true, however, he wouldn't be the first "standup guy" to fall to corrupting nature of celebrity.

Wow this comment is loaded with "hidden" value statements, hidden value statements that think they are factual statements.

What is the difference between factual statements and value statements?

Factual statements ask what is currently, while Value statements ask what should be (as in should be in the past, should be in the present, should be in the future.)

These things are completely different!

Why is the difference between facts and values are important?

Because unlike fact, values cannot be proven true or false by any sort of empirical / scientific method, values are not falsifiable.

So if you think Hollywood, or celebrity in general always corrupts and if a person is corrupted than it must be because Hollywood or celebrity got to them. It can't possibly be^{under this moral intuition, this value paradigm} that the guy was never a stand-up guy,—— it is simply not possible that he was always a bad egg and was just good at being a chameleon who looked like a good guy.——Sometimes really bad people have learned to pretend to be good guys in order to interact with society. Believe me it does happen all the time...there are wolves in sheep clothing are out there.

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I have no clue if A) Vic Mignogna did any assault / unwanted violation of personal space-boundaries, and I also have no clue that B) If Vic Mignogna is a "stand-up guy." But can we as a forum stick with A and not talk about B for B is just a form of delusion where you see what you want to believe. There is no way to demonstrate / prove B it is a "Rorschach Test" / "Rashomon" Effect / "Rubin's Vase-Face" .. ie ... do you see a vase or do you see two women?



-----

I repeat have no clue if Vic Migorgna did A, the only way to demonstrate A is to do a more thorough investigation. And since we internet people can't do that more thorough investigation via conversing on this forum we need to remember that while we discuss the subject.

[Calemyr]

Oi. I said he always struck me as one, not that he was. The fact that it was my personal read and values was never in question. The quotations around it in the second sentence should make it clear I intended it to mean he wasn't in that case.

Feel free to disagree with me all you like. Feel free to claim celebrity isn't prone to corrupting those who revel in it. Hell, tell me you thought he was a punk from the get go and I was an idiot for seeing anything decent about him. But please don't suggest I was trying to state feeling as fact. I was up front that it was a feeling, and that is followed by a further feeling of disappointment common when someone fails to live up to the standards once ascribed to them.

[Ramza00]

Values are not Feelings. Values are frameworks in how we perceive the world. That is different than Feelings. They are not synonyms. (Though Facts, Values, Feelings are related in a kind of triangle type fashion where they deal with different aspects of consciousness, we need all of them, and one should not replace the other.)

But whatever, I am not trying to invalidate your Values Calemyr. I respect your values, and I respect your perceptions / intuitions on this individual person. I am merely pointing out that other people do not just have their own perceptions / intuitions on this individual person but they also may disagree with your values all together and it is not because they are immoral, they just instead have a different moral framework.

Celebrity does not always morally corrupt. Thinking a person who did bad things (which we do or do not know at this moment) is caused by celebrity robs people of agency. It robs them of the ability to be virtuous or wicked. People are virtuous or wicked completely separate from celebrity.

[Calemyr]

Values are not Feelings. Values are frameworks in how we perceive the world. That is different than Feelings.

Interesting distinction. I can roll with it. Does this distract from my complaint that my statement was personal perception (thus entailing my personal values and feelings) rather than objective fact?

But whatever, I am not trying to invalidate your Values Calemyr. I respect your values, and I respect your perceptions / intuitions on this individual person. I am merely pointing out that other people do not just have their own perceptions / intuitions on this individual person but they also may disagree with your values all together and it is not because they are immoral, they just instead have a different moral framework.

And it is well within their right to have opposing views. That's rather the point to being here, in my opinion. I could go rant in a closet if all I want are echoes of my own sentiment.

Celebrity does not always morally corrupt. Thinking a person who did bad things (which we do or do not know at this moment) is caused by celebrity robs people of agency. It robs them of the ability to be virtuous or wicked. People are virtuous or wicked completely separate from celebrity.

I never said always. It does corrupt, though, if you're not careful. A lot of the people we've seen cast down by these scandals did it because they thought it was alright, because someone of their status either can do no wrong or enjoy additional privilege. When nobody says no to you long enough, it becomes easy to stop saying no to yourself.

[Ramza00]

I never said always. It does corrupt, though, if you're not careful. A lot of the people we've seen cast down by these scandals did it because they thought it was alright, because someone of their status either can do no wrong or enjoy additional privilege. When nobody says no to you long enough, it becomes easy to stop saying no to yourself.

I agree Celebrity could / can corrupt in theory, but that is a different conversation than did Celebrity corrupt this one specific man. It is not productive to have the conversation did Celebrity corrupt this one specific man for it is unfalsifiable, you can't prove it but you also can't disprove it. In this conversation of did Celebrity corrupt you are limited to mental confabulation, a form of memory error where we try to substitute facts that are unknowable into our frameworks for we want to feel our already existing moral intuitions are able to explain away the horror of wickedness.

Sometimes wickedness happens and there is a hidden logic behind the wickedness but it will always remain unknowable. There are bad people in the world, and furthermore there are wicked actions that occur all the time regardless of whether there are good or bad people in the world.

-----

We can not have a productive conversation on the subject of celebrity and its corruptive effects on a single person for it is an illusionary hypothetical, it is not real. It is instead creating a mental hypothetical and assuming facts into existence to play this mental game. It is a thought experiment.

We can have a productive conversation about a whole host of other things related to Vic Mignogna. We can have a productive conversation about Qrow the character, Qrow's voice actor, Rooster Teeth, RWBY, etc, but talking about how celebrity corrupts is not one of those things.

[Calemyr]

Fair enough. On another note, I do hope this at least means we get more Winter, assuming Qrow takes a back seat now.

[Dragonus45]

blargh, the rumors about Vic have been floating around the industry for about as long as there have been anime conventions, but it’s always been hard to judge because for every person who has something bad to say about him being difficult to work with or rude to con staff or being a creep around underage folks, there is a another person who is a con regular or volunteer who has literally the opposite to say. There are conventions that have banned him and others that are happy to have him back every year. Not that either of those actually disprove or exclude the other but it really is the longest running game of he said she said in the whole anime community and part of me wonders how nothing truly substantive have come out in such a long period of time for a person so constantly surrounded by rumors and I innuendo. That the only truly concrete thing we now about him is that he has a habit of being overly affectionate when posing for pictures with a bit more physicalaity then you usually see for that kind of thing in the states. And honestly he has owned up to the idea that could have been off putting and now he won’t be doing it at all ever at any signings. I’m not real sure where the need to fire him came from? At the very least they could have just kept quite and waiting to see how things panned out, and then made a decision then. Same for Funimation, especially for them actually. I’ve seen a ton of people in rooster teeth chat groups who seemed to be blindsided by this so I can sort of give them the benefit of the doubt this is news to them but Funimation has to have known about the rumors and I’m certain they have looked into it before and kept him around then. This has the feel of a PR move more then a real attempt to ensure justice.

[Lethologica]

He said, she said is when two people disagree about the same event, not when two people report a third behaving differently at different events under vaguely similar circumstances.

For that matter, people have been calling firsthand testimony hearsay in this thread, and that's just bizarre.

[Dragonus45]

He said, she said is when two people disagree about the same event, not when two people report a third behaving differently at different events under vaguely similar circumstances.

Uhhh, not wanting to get into semantics but he said she said is still the best way I can think of describe it, unless you have a better one.

[Lethologica]

Uhhh, not wanting to get into semantics but he said she said is still the best way I can think of describe it, unless you have a better one.

I would say he is polarizing, in the sense that some people have had great experiences with him and support him, while others have had terrible experiences with him and dislike or despise him. Or perhaps I would say that the varying reports suggest that his behavior is erratic or inconsistent.

I don't think you would use the phrase "he said, she said" to describe some women recounting Bill Cosby assaulting them and other women recounting Bill Cosby not assaulting them. That is not what the phrase means - in that situation, or this one.

[Lemmy]

EDIT: Well... All my Rooster Teeth-related accounts are officially cancelled.

[Callos_DeTerran]

EDIT: Well... All my Rooster Teeth-related accounts are officially cancelled.

??? Something change?

[LaZodiac]

??? Something change?

Pissy that a creepy loser got fired form Funimation as well as Roosterteeth

It's almost as if ten years of this being an open secret finally catches up after awhile.