Why doesn't that happen to all vampires?

[SirKazum]

(I mean the thing in #1130 of course)

My guess? Because most vampires give it enough time to absorb their host's memories that they manage to form a new identity for themselves, that remains a separate thing from the host even with all their memories.

Then again, I still think the "gambit" in the comic should be common enough that you'd have lots of non-Evil vampires running around... what do you think?

[Kish]

You can get a radically different story by reading the same events in a different order. I would guess that, without specific prompting, a vampire gets the memories in an order that hierarchically ranks negative emotions--hatred, greed, vengefulness--as all-important, and positive ones as trivial. Ultimately the vampire is still, like the living person, the sum total of their shared memories and emotions, but the vampire is far more likely to wind up somewhere evil as a result. But the vampire still has moral choice, and is still the original person, in a sense.

[Keltest]

Were working from a sample size of two here, one of which (Malack) certainly seemed to identify with his host to the point of considering them the same being, just changed by time and experience.

[Cazero]

Were working from a sample size of two here, one of which (Malack) certainly seemed to identify with his host to the point of considering them the same being, just changed by time and experience.

Are you sure that the Malack "resurrecting me is only a complicated way of killing the person I actualy am" vampire from the comic is the person you're talking about?

[hroþila]

Crazy theory time: Malack specifically designed his Quickened Create Vampire spell to make the resulting vampires be as similar to the mortals that had caught his attention as possible by depriving them of the time to properly process the memories without being overwhelmed by them!

But seriously though, we don't know to what extent Durkon is a special case right now. Or entirely in control, for that matter.

Are you sure that the Malack "resurrecting me is only a complicated way of killing the person I actualy am" vampire from the comic is the person you're talking about?

Yes. That line would apply just as well to living beings, and Malack did talk about his host's fraternal bonds as if he had experienced them himself (which, in a way, he had).

[denthor]

Could be just education and wisdom.

I still think the line I am exactly as smart as you +2 is important. What is the wisdom higher/lower same?

Not to mention feelings are overwhelming. Even with context, Durkon even says he has mixed emotions still after years/decades of bring an adult.

[5a Violista]

Are you sure that the Malack "resurrecting me is only a complicated way of killing the person I actualy am" vampire from the comic is the person you're talking about?

Yes, that line actually supports what Keltest said: A resurrection would effectively eliminate all the memories he's gained, effectively wiping out the "time and experience" that he considers to have changed him. In that way, a resurrection spell would be just like a forced-amnesia spell or a mindrape spell that rewrites his personality into a younger, less-mature version of himself.

...and a mental erasure by way of rewriting personality is what I (and probably many people) consider "a complicated way of killing someone". Except, in this case, it would be even more accurate because Malack's negative spirit would pass on to Nergal instead of being completely deleted.

[Perficio]

I'm just gonna quote what I put in #1130:

No, I don't think this was inevitable. Consider the differences here between Durkula and the other vampires we know a bit about, Malack and Ponchula.

Malack slowly absorbed memories over a long time, during which he was making new memories as a vampire. The memories of his shaman template were fainter and vaguer than those drinking the blood of his once-relatives, and easily dismissed.

Ponchula wasn't so much absorbing the memories of a struggling host as working together with somebody who was down for being an evil vampire. They probably had an easy flow back and forth, but the conversation kept their identities somewhat separate... for now. Maybe they would have blended over time.

Durkula described himself as made-to-order for the holes in Durkon's heart, meaning he was fundamentally shaped around Durkon's self image from the start. He's had only a couple of days to operate, during which he's been pretending to be Durkon and surrounded by people Durkon knows - continuing Durkon-memories, instead of really making his own. He's had nowhere near the amount of time or distance needed to establish his own identity. And now Durkon took advantage of that, getting Durkula off balance with the emotions that he - as Durkon on his worst day, with some additional shaping by Hel - would be susceptible to... and overwhelmed him with memories to the point that Durkon's identity is now most of who Durkula is. I don't think it's 100%, but there's so little anything else in him - besides some knowledge of the plans Hel laid out - that he's now basically what he'd claimed to be before - Durkon, but a vampire and probably some alignment shift.

I don't think this is normal for a OOTS vampire at all. I think it's the combo of custom-made soul, the work of going incognito... and most of all, Durkon having the exceptional insight, wisdom, and stubbornness to figure out how to reframe Durkula's identity and make it happen.

[The Pilgrim]

My guess is that vampires take their time to process the memories of their hosts. They just resort to them when they need it and by the time they have run through it all, enough time, perhaps decades, have passed and the vampire has developed a personality of his own based on his own experiences so he isn't overtaken by the host's personality. Though some influence remains, a vampire is initially formed by the darkest feelings of the Host and spends his first baby steps into the world imitating him (as the Host is initially the only source of information). That's why Malack felt ambiguous when talking about his host and self identified with him to some extent.

Greg's error was to rush the process of assimilating his Host's memories and let Durkon taunt him into speeding the process even further. To the level of even unloading it all at once. The error was probably forced by Hel needing to rush him into action inmediatly after Greg was formed, without giving him time to understand himself and the world. Other vampires probably expend their first years with a more relaxed unlife without the pressure of having to milk so much and so quickly from their hosts.

Additionally, very few hosts would have the resolve to keep resisting, the wisdom to notice they can overwhelm the vampire on it's infancy, and the patience to carefully develope a plan to manage to pull it. And even if they do, all they have done is make a copy of themselves, but very few if any will be so pure as to produce a copy so Good that it would return them control of their bodies.

[Cazero]

Yes, that line actually supports what Keltest said: A resurrection would effectively eliminate all the memories he's gained, effectively wiping out the "time and experience" that he considers to have changed him. In that way, a resurrection spell would be just like a forced-amnesia spell or a mindrape spell that rewrites his personality into a younger, less-mature version of himself.

The way I read it, a resurection spell would kill Malack and bring back a different person that could never become Malack again, because they're too different from each other for the same process to ever happen again.

[MartianInvader]

I think there's a simpler reason here:

Most Vampires aren't created from Durkon Thundershield.

[factotum]

The way I read it, a resurection spell would kill Malack and bring back a different person that could never become Malack again, because they're too different from each other for the same process to ever happen again.

Well, yes, of course that would be the case. How could you possibly arrange for the resurrected person to have exactly the same 200-year experience Malack had? For a start, they'd have to become a vampire again straightaway, which would kind of defeat the point of the exercise! Whoever resulted from the resurrection would not be the same as Malack, whatever happened subsequently.

[King of Nowhere]

I believe durkon is just so selfless that even his worst day isn't very much. it takes a special brand of good, i think.

and it's possible that this happens eventually to all vampires, but with enough negative influence that the result is south of neutral. I mean, just consider the need to drain life force from people to survive: eventually, you stop caring about what happens to people, since you have to at least seriously hurt one of them daily. after that, why bother helping someone else? Durkon, as a high level cleric, can deal with that by casting restoration.

So, it was a combination of various factors, that totaled up as "durkon is special"

[Douglas]

I think the normal process is that the vampire views all the memories, a bit at a time, and all the while maintains some level of detachment from them - they're mentally tagged as being information about someone else, while the vampire maintains his own separate identity.

What happened here is that Durkon flooded his vampire with a whole lifetime of memories all at once, in a bulk copy that put them directly into the vampire's own memory without allowing that "I'm just viewing them" detachment factor. The memories made it into the vampire's mind as his own memories, and as a consequence brought all of their character development along with them.

As for why this doesn't happen to all, or even many, vampires, I think it's important that Durkon got the vampire to ask for it. The vampire has control over all of this stuff, and would normally be able to simply refuse an attempt to do something like this. Durkon tricked him into accepting it, and then did it all before the vampire could take it back.

[LadyEowyn]

Cross-posted from the main thread on this comic:

My answer to the question of "Why doesn't this happen to vampires more often?" is that not only does it require a fairly specific type of host (strongly Good-aligned, whose character and emotions are built around experiencing a specific moment of extreme altruistic self-sacrifice), it also requires a very large difference in the ratio of vampire memories:host memories.

I would expect that most vampires take many years to absorb all their host's memories, and by the time that has happened the vampire's own personality is pretty firmly established as something different from the host's - the vampire has all the host's memories, but it also has many, many memories of being a vampire and doing evil vampirey things. I expect that the sequence in which it views the host's memories also has an effect on vampire's personality.

But Durkula's memories now include maybe a week or two of being Durkula and 50+ years of being Durkon, which is enough to overwhelm his Durkula-ness.

[Millstone85]

I would expect that most vampires take many years to absorb all their host's memories

Not according to Greg back in #948.

"The sooner I absorb all your memories, the sooner I can stop talking to you. Usually, the process takes a few months, but it's not a problem if you want to start your eternal dormancy early."

[martianmister]

How is that different from what happened to Malack? They both received all of their victim's memories and thinks that they're same person as their victims.

[sum1won]

(I mean the thing in #1130 of course)

My guess? Because most vampires give it enough time to absorb their host's memories that they manage to form a new identity for themselves, that remains a separate thing from the host even with all their memories.

Then again, I still think the "gambit" in the comic should be common enough that you'd have lots of non-Evil vampires running around... what do you think?

So, something like that does happen to other vampires. But I don't think that its a matter of the "new identity" remaining a separate thing from the host. I think all vampires combine identities at some point.

The issue is, as you identified, they usually form enough memories and absorb the new ones slowly. This means that the end personality is sufficiently divergent from the host. It's just . . . character development. And durkon tricked durkula into accepting the merger before he had developed sufficiently.

Here's my evidence:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html
"I had ... I was the ignorant barbarian . . . " "annihilates the person I am today"
This can be read as destroying his 200 years of character development.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html
"I had seven brothers once, you know. In that dim other life so long past. I remember the taste of their blood far more vividly than any fraternal bond, though."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0879.html
"You will feel more like yourself once I release you from my thrall - but I worry that doing so now would be . . . confusing for you."

Implications:

1.Vampire identities aren't consolidated immediately after being created
the ellipses in ". . . confusing" indicates that it is a euphemism - Durkon was released earlier than Malack had planned

2. Vampires do identify as their host eventually
compare Malack's perspective to the conversation between recently created vampires - poncho and durkula. They don't know what's up and identify as something other than the soul trapped within them - but the 200 year old vampire does identify himself as the same entity - with 200 years of development that he finds important

3. Memories formed while living can be overwhelmed by memories subsequently formed while a vampire
see taste of the blood of the brothers effectively replacing fraternal bonds. Durkula knows he'll absorb (not read - absorb) all of the memories eventually. He doesn't know what this means. Durkon figured out he doesn't know what it means, and how that could change things if it happens early

[SaintRidley]

It's just . . . character development. And durkon tricked durkula into accepting the merger before he had developed sufficiently.

It's funny, because one of the big complaints people had about Durkon prior to vampirization was that he didn't really have any character development. And then when he was vampirized and we saw how vampirism worked in this world, the question became how he could even develop. And now he wins a mental battle with his possessing spirit by forcing it to undergo character development.

It's beautiful, really.

[Snails]

Crazy theory time: Malack specifically designed his Quickened Create Vampire spell to make the resulting vampires be as similar to the mortals that had caught his attention as possible by depriving them of the time to properly process the memories without being overwhelmed by them!

Interesting idea. Arguably Malack was aware that the accelerated process made the new vampire psychologically more vulnerable in some ways, when he said he would not free the newly vamped Durkon because it could be "confusing".

[SlashDash]

I think there's a simpler reason here:

Most Vampires aren't created from Durkon Thundershield.

This ^^

My understanding is that there's a reason why the author gave us this sequence parallel to Belkar's speech - because it's who affected Belkar on his path to slightly less psychopathically evil.

That's the entire point of the strip of why the party needed Durkon specifically and not just any random Priest.

Durkon has that affect of being able to shift people into a slightly better alignment.

Truth be told, it would not surprise me if Hilga will equally be affected by him later on.




If that's not enough for you, consider the talks of the Exarch and Ponchella about their relation to their host.
They aren't even remotely the same.

All the foreshadowing existed already.


I admit I was one who didn't think this would go that way, but seeing how things are presented I think the case here is clear.


This doesn't happen to all vampries because they aren't hosted by Durkon Thundershield.

[SirKazum]

because it's who affected Belkar on his path to slightly less psychopathically evil.

Speaking of which, if I may have a little detour, any takers on a prediction that Belkar at some point stops being hurt by the amulet of Protection Against Evil... even if only for a brief moment, before he dies to save the party vs. Durkula (maybe by destroying the vampire)?

[Emanick]

Speaking of which, if I may have a little detour, any takers on a prediction that Belkar at some point stops being hurt by the amulet of Protection Against Evil... even if only for a brief moment, before he dies to save the party vs. Durkula (maybe by destroying the vampire)?

I give 3-to-1 odds against it. I wouldn't bet on it - if nothing else, it's rather predictable - but it's a distinct possibility that I certainly wouldn't dismiss.

[CJG]

Greg said something along the lines of “most high level clerics aren’t foolish enough to fall into undeath”. It could be a case of “This is Durkon” but also “this is a high level cleric”

[Michaeler]

My take is that on a small scale it does.

The vampire absorbs a memory, is changed a little by it, does some other stuff and its vampiric nature reasserts itself fully. Probably there would even be a formula about how long it takes to fully return to your default vampire personality after absorbing a certain amount of memory.

Greg just overdosed on host memories and it will be a long time, if ever, before his vampire personality can start to emerge again.

[SavageWombat]

You know, it would probably have helped the vampire with his self-identity issues if he'd ever given himself a name.

[Goblin_Priest]

Also: where did "all of this goes on at the speed of thought" go? He started sharing when the battle began...

[Emanick]

Also: where did "all of this goes on at the speed of thought" go? He started sharing when the battle began...

I guess thinking does take time, after all.

[hroþila]

I guess thinking does take time, after all.

But if previous scenes early in the book went at regular thinking speed, some of them pretty much stop making sense. The vampire's point was that no matter how much Durkon tried to stall, it would have no effect.

There has to be something else to this beyond simply "turns out the vampire was wrong; Durkon could totally have stalled from the start". Perhaps the vampire was losing his ability to concentrate, perhaps he needed to spend extra time thinking about the memories the regular way or whatever, but I don't believe "thinking does take time" works as an explanation.

[Dausuul]

Also: where did "all of this goes on at the speed of thought" go? He started sharing when the battle began...

First of all, we only have Greg's word that his interactions with Durkon took place at instantaneous speed. Obviously they took place very quickly, but Greg may have been bluffing about them taking no time at all.

Second, it's possible the Giant was taking liberties with the chronology for dramatic effect; alternating panels between Durkon's head and the outside world as if they were simultaneous, when in fact they were happening at different times. Here's my proposed chronology:

• #1120. Hilgya and Kudzu have just come into view, and Greg reacts to that event by showing Durkon. Right now, the "Durkon's Head" timeline and "Outside World" timeline are aligned.
• Durkon's Head #1121-1129. All of these scenes take place in an eyeblink. This is why Durkon is refusing to speak in #1129: The battle is still going on.
• Greg disengages from the conversation, since Durkon won't speak.
• Outside World #1121-1128. The battle reaches its conclusion.
• Greg re-engages with Durkon to demand answers.
• Durkon's Head #1130 (today's strip). Durkon dumps his whole life history into Greg's mind. Greg suffers a Vampire BSOD.
• Durkon hits Ctrl-Alt-Delete. Greg is now rebooting in Durkon Mode, a process which takes real-world time.
• Outside World #1129-1130. Ponchula comments on Greg's BSOD.
• Greg finishes rebooting in time for the next strip... maybe. We'll have to see what happens.

There are a couple of panels that pose a challenge with this chronology:

• The panel in #1126 where Greg says "That's just incredibly distracting. The sword throwing, not the memory." However, this could simply mean that Greg was puzzling over the memory he'd seen; he wasn't still watching it.
• The panel in #1127 where Greg says "Don't look at me like that. I promised not to harm the baby personally." This panel is clearly aligned with "Outside World" events. But we could simply consider it an "Outside World" panel; since Durkon does not speak, there's nothing inconsistent with this panel taking place after the other "Durkon's Head" scenes.