How is the Shifter on it’s own, and can it be made to work?

[EisenKreutzer]

So, by now everyone has more or less made up their minds about the shifter from Ultimate Wilderness, and the verdict is underwhelming.

Compared to the hunter and druid, the two classes with features that most closely resembles the shifter the shifter underperforms.

But taken on it’s own, not compared to other classes, what have we got to work with? Natural weapons, buffs and wild shape as well as Wis to AC and some other semi useful class features, d10 hit die, full BAB, middle of the road skill points and class skills and good Ref and Fort save progression.

Thats not terrible. It’s not excellent, but it’s not terrible.

Without comparing it to other classes, can the shifter be made to perform well enough to be a valuable member of an optimized party?

[Ssalarn]

If you're trying to have it take the place of a druid or hunter, it's not going to be able to keep pace, but compared to a barbarian or most other full BAB classes it does well. It can put together a huge AC with solid secondary defenses (touch, flat-footed) and generally solid saves.
The big thing is that it's a training wheels class; pretty much anyone picking up a shifter is going to be able to build one that has solid combat and exploration abilities, early access to a few handy tricks, and few truly bad choices. Even combat-weak options like the Bat aspect specifically call themselves out as being ill-suited for combat so the player isn't surprised and knows to save it as a secondary or tertiary pick. While you can get more out of a druid, you'll need to know which forms to pick, what spells to memorize, and when to cast them, while all of that is largely pre-coded into the shifter. Your minor aspects are your temporary buff spells, your Defensive Instinct is your barkskin (and even mostly stacks with wild armor, which is handy for high AC builds), and wildshape is your big trick. Biggest problem there is that you get so few uses and by 5th level you want a combat form and an exploration form, so items like druid's vestments and feats like Shifter's Rush so you can save your combat transformations until the last possible second are basically mandatory.

[Psyren]

So, by now everyone has more or less made up their minds about the shifter from Ultimate Wilderness

I haven't. You've been making threads about this class for the past several days but it's not even on the SRD yet - maybe give the folks who haven't bought the book a chance to read it before drawing a conclusion? And even if it IS underwhelming, archetypes exist and are a very easy way to patch a class after the fact (just look at the Lore Warden Fighter which debuted long before AWT.)

[EisenKreutzer]

I haven't. You've been making threads about this class for the past several days but it's not even on the SRD yet - maybe give the folks who haven't bought the book a chance to read it before drawing a conclusion? And even if it IS underwhelming, archetypes exist and are a very easy way to patch a class after the fact (just look at the Lore Warden Fighter which debuted long before AWT.)

I’m sorry, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else. I haven’t been posting about the shifter at all before this post.

This post was actually intended to be a positive alternative to the negativity I have seen on the forum for a while now.

[Psyren]

You're right, I apologize - the other threads were by other folks. But my point does stand - there is no meaningful consensus yet without the class actually being out there for folks to read without buying the book, so I don't think declaring there to be one after only a couple of days has merit.

Speaking personally, I like to buy a book after getting a better idea of its contents than is present in the marketing blurb, unless I know for a fact that the book has things I'm bound to use (like both Unchained and Occult Adventures did.) I'm not that interested in nature classes, so this is one that I'm happy to wait and see before buying.

[EisenKreutzer]

You're right, I apologize - the other threads were by other folks. But my point does stand - there is no meaningful consensus yet without the class actually being out there for folks to read without buying the book, so I don't think declaring there to be one after only a couple of days has merit.

Speaking personally, I like to buy a book after getting a better idea of its contents than is present in the marketing blurb, unless I know for a fact that the book has things I'm bound to use (like both Unchained and Occult Adventures did.) I'm not that interested in nature classes, so this is one that I'm happy to wait and see before buying.

Apology accepted. :)

I agree on all counts, actually. I bought the book yesterday, and was surprised at how much I enjoyed the content. I was a bit apprehensive after reading so much negativity, especially concerning the shifter, but I really enjoy the book as a whole.

I like the shifter too, thematically and mechanically, and while I understand the complaints I don’t have a problem with the class as printed.

Part of the reason for this thread was to try and get the people with a negative outlook to consider the positive elements of the shifter class, and to start some discussion on the merits of the shifter.

[Psyren]

Part of the reason for this thread was to try and get the people with a negative outlook to consider the positive elements of the shifter class, and to start some discussion on the merits of the shifter.

I can all but guarantee you that very few folks with a negative outlook have actually read the class, nor will they until (and in some cases, after) it's been uploaded for them to do so freely. So I'd temper my expectations for this kind of discussion, is all I'm saying.

[EisenKreutzer]

I can all but guarantee you that very few folks with a negative outlook have actually read the class, nor will they until (and in some cases, after) it's been uploaded for them to do so freely. So I'd temper my expectations for this kind of discussion, is all I'm saying.

You're probably right. Still, I'd hate for people to give the class a pass because they read so much negative stuff about it on a forum renowned for it's opinions and advice on the mechanics of Pathfinder and D&D. So it's worth it trying to generate some positivity.

[Biguds]

Hello there.

I had to say that you guys are some of the few that I think that really think straight.

After a quick look in the book, I'd say the Shifter is a good class. Not overwhelming complex, effective even without items, and, as far I can tell, for an Adventure Path (DMed and played by the book), is pretty solid.

Cannot tell about the archetypes, for I did not read those yet.

(Bad english caused by cellphone autocorrect in portuguese)

[Cyrocloud]

I felt the class was being presented as a martial master shape-shifting and we were going to get something akin to a wild shape ranger from 3.5, ideally one that prestiged into master of manyforms. This probably lead to my very bad kneejerk reaction to the class when I first read the scans.

After rereading after the book came out and readjusting my expectations it isn't as terrible as I thought. It really doesn't help that most classes that are in a similar niche seem to do the job better. It is just rough, and needs a lot of polish (it comes off to me as something that would be an alpha test of a concept and honestly not even ready for public testing).

I find the claw feature is pretty well done, though it could use some explanation on how it works with snake form.

The aspects are pretty neat, I feel like that changing the enhancement bonuses to something less common would help a lot (size maybe). Maybe a feat that would allow you to use some major aspect boons in a different form (maybe treating it as your shifter level -4) would help a lot too. Possibly giving some additional benefits for an option if you pick the same aspect twice (like a hybrid form turning into any related animal or gain the benefits of beast shape 3 or 4). A feat that allowed you to become any related animal in an aspect, and one that gave access to beast shape 3 and 4 would probably help the class along a lot.

[Milo v3]

I was able to make a competitive shifter without much difficultly, though one of the feats I was using from the book to get good damage is about to be nerfed so that could change and I used full Automatic Bonus Progression.

The class will probably be fine at low-level, though it looks like it won't be able to keep up without knowing a decent amount of optimization after the mid-mid levels because of it's lack of iterative attacks.

[ATHATH]

Well, a Shift dip can work- provided that you fall (and have the Oozemorph archetype).

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_...be_overlooked/

If that's too cheesy for you, being a Kitsune might also work to remove the Oozemorph's drawback.

[ngilop]

I’m sorry, but you seem to be confusing me with someone else. I haven’t been posting about the shifter at all before this post.

This post was actually intended to be a positive alternative to the negativity I have seen on the forum for a while now.

Compared to the hunter and druid, the two classes with features that most closely resembles the shifter the shifter underperforms.

Bolded for emphasis.. does not seem to be too positive, and in fact seems to be pretty negative so far in what you have posted.


plus the title of this thread implies that the shifter is inherently weak and the question lingers of; "can it be made to work?" sating the given that it is a broken -in the sense of truenamer- class and whether the possibility exists of making it even playable, let alone equal to an optimized druid..

which in all honesty.. comparing about 4/5 of the classes to an optimized druid renders them moot.

[Milo v3]

which in all honesty.. comparing about 4/5 of the classes to an optimized druid renders them moot.

That's the whole point of the thread... to evalute the class on it's own merits rather than comparing it to druid.

[Psyren]

That's the whole point of the thread... to evalute the class on it's own merits rather than comparing it to druid.

Which is fine, but as ngilop pointed out, the language in the OP seems to have concluded such an evaluation before we even started.

[Cyrocloud]

That's the whole point of the thread... to evalute the class on it's own merits rather than comparing it to druid.

I don't think the issue so much is comparisons to druid as it is to midcasters that gain shape-shifting powers, and too a lesser extent a ported wild shape ranger.

[Milo v3]

Which is fine, but as ngilop pointed out, the language in the OP seems to have concluded such an evaluation before we even started.

I saw it more as "Okay, we know it can't stack up against these things, but why don't we examine it on it's own merits?".

[Psyren]

I saw it more as "Okay, we know it can't stack up against these things, but why don't we examine it on it's own merits?".

"We" don't know that. Maybe the 2-3 folks here who already bought the book think that, they may even be right in the end, but that belief is all we have right now.

[Milo v3]

One issue I've seen in the very few times I've had the chance to use the Shifter is that I don't have many uses of Wild Shape, so I end up wanting to spend all my time in dinosaur form for pounce, strength increases, etc. but that means I can never really use my owl form for flight, especially when my giant owl form ends up having less natural attacks than my shifter has in his natural form (and the fact that giant owl for some reason doesn't let you use the shifter claw damage for it's claws).

[Florian]

Hm... I think the Shifter has the positive side effect that you have to build that class very different from your usual weapon-based front-liners and avoid cookie-cutter feats and equipment.

For playing an AP, I think I´d go for a one-level dip into Ranger and get the Shapeshifting Hunter feat, maybe a race with solid SLA and work with the Nature Magic feat chain.

[Milo v3]

When I was building some I was quite annoyed you can't really take any of the wild-shape feats from Ultimate Wilderness because of their massive wisdom requirements.

[ATHATH]

Shapeshifting Hunter

Doesn't that feat specifically only stack Druid and Ranger levels?

[Florian]

When I was building some I was quite annoyed you can't really take any of the wild-shape feats from Ultimate Wilderness because of their massive wisdom requirements.

Why? Huge Wis ain´t bad for that class, considering Defensive Instinct and Extended Aspects.

Doesn't that feat specifically only stack Druid and Ranger levels?

Shifter levels count as Druid levels for purpose of requirements and stacking, so that should not be a problem.

[Milo v3]

Why? Huge Wis ain´t bad for that class, considering Defensive Instinct and Extended Aspects.

19 Wisdom is far too high for a class which needs four good ability scores.

[Florian]

which needs four good ability scores.

Funny how that argument always comes up for each new martial class .... and proves not to be true.

Best thing you could prolly do (on lowish PB) is going for heavy armor prof. and save up for a wild full plate / O-Yoroi. Higher Dex is practically only needed if you go for a Mask of Giants and Combat Reflexes, while higher Wis opens up some of the rider-feats based on Nature Magic and some of the Brawler feats.

[Milo v3]

Funny how that argument always comes up for each new martial class .... and proves not to be true.

My PC was 7th level, best I could get it's wisdom while still being competitive was 16.

Best thing you could prolly do (on lowish PB) is going for heavy armor prof. and save up for a wild full plate / O-Yoroi. Higher Dex is practically only needed if you go for a Mask of Giants and Combat Reflexes, while higher Wis opens up some of the rider-feats based on Nature Magic and some of the Brawler feats.

You realise you can't wear metal armour right? Having to get everything Wild and Dragonhide is going to be very very expensive.

[Florian]

My PC was 7th level, best I could get it's wisdom while still being competitive was 16.


You realise you can't wear metal armour right? Having to get everything Wild and Dragonhide is going to be very very expensive.

You realize that we have three non-metal heavy armors before we go into special materials? So that´s pretty much a non-argument.

[Cyrocloud]

Don't forget the shifters claw feat that requires the use of dex to hit to add level to damage, though that is supposed to be near fed soon

[Ssalarn]

One issue I've seen in the very few times I've had the chance to use the Shifter is that I don't have many uses of Wild Shape.

That's probably my biggest issue as well. The class really wants to have an exploration form and a combat form by 5th level, but it doesn't really have enough uses for that to be plausible in a standard adventuring day until 12th level.

(and the fact that giant owl for some reason doesn't let you use the shifter claw damage for it's claws)

Why do you think this? That doesn't appear to be true.

You realize that we have three non-metal heavy armors before we go into special materials? So that´s pretty much a non-argument.

Was going to make the same observation. Stoneplate, stone lamellar, and then of course the various special materials all exist and are viable options for the shifter, even if they burn a feat on heavy armor proficiency (which they can generally pull off without giving much up since they have a very small number of "must have" feats). Plus shifter loves having tiger as an aspect, which lets you grab the necessary Dexterity bonuses without having to sink wealth into boosting a stat that won't be as helpful when you're not wildshaped. Builds that include options like tiger alongside a suit of non-metal wild heavy armor are going to have significant AC, generally much higher than standard armored martials. Adding heavy armor + 1/2 Wis + (+1 - +5 depending on level) + wild shape natural armor bonus + tiger aspect alongside full Dex bonus with no ASF while wild shaped are going to have very competitive ACs alongside much higher touch AC (and somewhat higher flat-footed) than you normally see on high AC builds outside of offensively weak monk builds or pre-buffed caster builds.

The biggest thing is that shifter is a high floor / low ceiling class. You don't have a ton of areas where you can optimize, but that also means you don't have many opportunities to make bad choices, so it's great for new and casual players, but kind of boring and overly simple for experienced players. It also holds up to scrutiny a lot better when compared to other full BAB classes like Barbarian or Fighter instead of when compared to Druids and Hunters, who are two of the stronger classes in PF.

[Milo v3]

Why do you think this? That doesn't appear to be true.

Unlike bear, tiger, or wolverine, the Falcon and Owl forms specify that their claw attacks deal a specific damage die.