OOTS #1106 - The Discussion Thread

[GreatWyrmGold]

Then those dwarves would die fighting the storm, same applies when a dwarf fights a tree

You might as well argue that dwarves who die of beard cancer went out fighting--fighting cancer. Heck, you could even argue that a dwarf who was executed for high treason went out fighting if he argued with the executioner.

No. All dwarves are subject to Loki's bet. Who they worship doesn't change anything. The wording of the bet is quite clear: Hel gets all the dishonorable dwarven souls. There is not "unless they worship a non-Northern god" clause.

GW

Nor is there a "within our churches" clause. Which probably pisses off the other pantheons, if significant numbers of dwarves are found in other regions.

Legal power is not everything. The Council might have de facto power simply because of traditions and ancestry and stuff.

Don't be ridiculous. Have you seen how dwarves have been characterized in this comic? They definitely have power because of traditions and stuff!

Hmm....While I believe they'd have standing to bicker with Hel over what constitutes "honor"; gods don't meet in person across pantheons anymore. Unless a dwarven soul happened to be worth risking a new Snarl over, Hel's claim would go unchallenged.

Or the Southern gods would send a representative to complain. Maybe a guardinal or other outsider.

[Jasdoif]

Or the Southern gods would send a representative to complain. Maybe a guardinal or other outsider.

I suppose they could find some glorified courier for Hel to ignore, sure. Maybe by sending a petition to Thor, to try convincing him to intervene on the behalf of dwarves who chose not to fall under the purview of his pantheon.

[Lethologica]

You might as well argue that dwarves who die of beard cancer went out fighting--fighting cancer. Heck, you could even argue that a dwarf who was executed for high treason went out fighting if he argued with the executioner.

FWIW, there may well be provision in the dwarven legal system for execution with honor vs. execution with dishonor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

FWIW, there may well be provision in the dwarven legal system for execution with honor vs. execution with dishonor.

There doesn't need to be. The law's opinion doesn't matter: the only opinion that matters is Thor's. He's the one that has to argue if a dwarf died honorably or not. So if Thor thinks dying of a splinter when attacking an Elm is honorable, it is, and if he thinks getting decapitated for a crime is not, it's not.

Now, I'd imagine that the priests of Thor have spent a lot of time enquiring just what is and isn't honorable (thus the general knowledge that liver failure and fighting trees is honorable), but that's not the legal system as much as dwarven theology (which in a world in which gods occasionally do answer, would actually be a science, come to think of it)

Grey Wolf

[Lethologica]

There doesn't need to be. The law's opinion doesn't matter: the only opinion that matters is Thor's. He's the one that has to argue if a dwarf died honorably or not. So if Thor thinks dying of a splinter when attacking an Elm is honorable, it is, and if he thinks getting decapitated for a crime is not, it's not.

Now, I'd imagine that the priests of Thor have spent a lot of time enquiring just what is and isn't honorable (thus the general knowledge that liver failure and fighting trees is honorable), but that's not the legal system as much as dwarven theology (which in a world in which gods occasionally do answer, would actually be a science, come to think of it)

Grey Wolf

Well, what I mean is there could be execution by injection and execution by combat, or something along those lines. Not about decreeing different interpretation of acts, but decreeing different acts.

[Keltest]

There doesn't need to be. The law's opinion doesn't matter: the only opinion that matters is Thor's. He's the one that has to argue if a dwarf died honorably or not. So if Thor thinks dying of a splinter when attacking an Elm is honorable, it is, and if he thinks getting decapitated for a crime is not, it's not.

Now, I'd imagine that the priests of Thor have spent a lot of time enquiring just what is and isn't honorable (thus the general knowledge that liver failure and fighting trees is honorable), but that's not the legal system as much as dwarven theology (which in a world in which gods occasionally do answer, would actually be a science, come to think of it)

Grey Wolf

Actually, I seem to recall a quote from the Giant that says that what the victim believes to be an honorable death plays a part in who goes to Hel. However, this was well before the elaboration of the bet to specify the honorable death thing being the exception rather than the norm for dwarves (technically, anyway), so it may be part of her role as Northern Goddess of the Dishonored Dead rather than being from the bet.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, what I mean is there could be execution by injection and execution by combat, or something along those lines. Not about decreeing different interpretation of acts, but decreeing different acts.

Ah, I see. Maybe a better example is "execution by being sent out to fight trolls" or something along those lines. I.e. a last chance of honorable conduct that nevertheless is almost certain death. Yeah, I can see that being the case.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Actually, I seem to recall a quote from the Giant that says that what the victim believes to be an honorable death plays a part in who goes to Hel.

In non-dwarven cases, certainly.

A human can worship Thor if he wants, certainly, but he is much more popular among the dwarves. Hel is specifically the goddess of the dishonored dead, which requires a system of honor/dishonor that really only applies to the dwarves and those humans that choose to believe in such things. If Haley died of disease, she wouldn't go to Hel because she wouldn't believe that she had been dishonored.

[Ruck]

Again: Rich didn't say anything about his intentions. Again: If Rich had, I would change my opinion.
Also again: I've repeatedly made it clear that I value evidence from within a work more highly than authorial statements outside said work. If you still can't think of anything that might convince me when an authorial statement from outside said work, then I am clearly putting far more effort into each sentence of this paragraph than you are into your entire post.

I've made multiple posts using in-comic evidence to support the position. Nale doesn't seem interested in rules, order, or structure in any but the most superficial ways and in fact is frequently upending them and causing chaos in order to serve his own wants.

On the other hand, "not living up to your alignment" doesn't mean you're not of this alignment, apparently. Just look at Eugen Greenhilt, who failed miserably at being either lawful or good (at least in comic).
I fail to remember even ONE instance of LG behavior from Eugene, both present day (impersonates an Angel to con paladins, belittles his son for not succeeding where he failed, plays favorite, acts constantly like a jerk) and in flashbacks (Performs dangerous experiments that end up killing his youngest son but never takes responsibility for it, get a blood oath only because he was on a drunken stupor, then abandon said blood oath without thinking out the consequances...).
The man is an irresponsible, egoistic mess, and yet, he's still waiting in front of the LG paradise.

So Giant's comment may have been hinting that Nale was wrong when he said he's lawful, or that he was a very bad example of lawfulness despite all his gloating about his perfect plans and ordered ways.

Well, I also don't think Eugene is going to end up in a Lawful Good afterlife, so.

[Nomen]

That is, if a Dwarf were to convert to the Southern Pantheon, say, it might be Tiger or Dragon bickering with Hel over who got the soul instead of Thor.

And why would they have to honor Thors little side bet which they were not part of. I'm talking about a dwarf moving to a land not controlled by the dwarven gods and worshiping a god of another pantheon.
Can Elan's gods make a deal where one gets all the male human souls and the other gets all the female human souls?

[Kish]

Probably, if either of them can prove they created male and female humans.

No, it's not fair that Thor can treat the dwarves like so many poker chips, but that doesn't change the way it is.

[a1chemi]

And why would they have to honor Thors little side bet which they were not part of. I'm talking about a dwarf moving to a land not controlled by the dwarven gods and worshiping a god of another pantheon.
Can Elan's gods make a deal where one gets all the male human souls and the other gets all the female human souls?

Roy went to the southern lands, died there, and still was bound to the northern section of the afterlife. It didn't matter where he lived or worshipped, only where he was from.

We've seen nothing to indicate that you can change your afterlife destination aside from failing to live up to your alignment.

[Nomen]

Roy went to the southern lands, died there, and still was bound to the northern section of the afterlife. It didn't matter where he lived or worshipped, only where he was from.

We've seen nothing to indicate that you can change your afterlife destination aside from failing to live up to your alignment.

I think which pantheon you belong to depends on where you live and who you worship. Roy didn't live in Azure city when he died he happened to be visiting. A dwarf would need to move out actively disown there old home and old pantheon and claim another home and pantheon but in theory a bet which only one pantheon agreed to would not effect the property of another pantheon. You know unless the other pantheons actually agreed that Oden's pantheon gets full control of the all dwarf souls regardless of where they live and who they worship.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And why would they have to honor Thors little side bet which they were not part of. I'm talking about a dwarf moving to a land not controlled by the dwarven gods and worshiping a god of another pantheon.
Can Elan's gods make a deal where one gets all the male human souls and the other gets all the female human souls?

Can they enforce that deal?
Thor, Hel, and their messed-up family are strong enough that they can make a deal with the Southern and Western gods. They presumably have things said pantheons want ("Okay, fine, you can have your gorram ninjas") and sufficient respect to make requests like that. On the other hand, Banjo and Giggles have no influence beyond Odin's fondness for puppets and Elan's puppy-dog eyes. Those might both be powerful forces, but they won't be enough to convince the gods to let these puppets take all human souls.

[Dr.Zero]

First, it's not only Thor to "argue" with Hel to defend their believers on the edge, but, realistically, according to the dialogue between Malack and Durkon (the ones who are not dishonored go to the plane matching their alignment) every single other god who has a dwarf follower can do that.

And, aside Loki (with Hilgya, who might be or not be a rarity), we know the dwarves have some people following Odin, for example.

Second, AFAIU Thor has no particular privilege over the dwarves. He keeps the normal deal. The only one with exceptional rights and penalties is Hel. The bet involved Thor in the way: "Let's see if you -Hel- with these special rules can get more power than your uncle which keeps the normal deal, as everyone of us, but, you know, being him a bufoon, let's make the bet between you and him."

Said that, there at least a couple of options.

First: all the other pantheons agreed to see the result of the bet, and yes, if a dwarf becomes a follower of the glorified pet zoo, sometimes Hel has to argue with Tiger or Rat. But this is rare (maybe never happened at all). Exactly as she has to argue with Odin or Loki.

Second: the souls are divided from the start, according to some [ethnic trait/birthplace] in groups that MUST follow the gods of North, South or West. So a dwarf will never follow another deity but one of North, because they are programmed so, and their free will meets a wall there and they cannot even think to follow a god from South or West. (Hey, no one has ever said they must have complete free will, mind you; the little people in Populous had even less free will than them, and still they were funny to have as followers!)
In this second case, the gods from South or West have no reason to care at all about a bet on dwarves, since dwarves are out of their possible dominion. (And, on the other hand, the Japan-in-a-fantasy people are, for example, under the exclusive dominion of the god of South)

[Necris Omega]

Second: the souls are divided from the start, according to some [ethnic trait/birthplace] in groups that MUST follow the gods of North, South or West. So a dwarf will never follow another deity but one of North, because they are programmed so, and their free will meets a wall there and they cannot even think to follow a god from South or West. (Hey, no one has ever said they must have complete free will, mind you; the little people in Populous had even less free will than them, and still they were funny to have as followers!)
In this second case, the gods from South or West have no reason to care at all about a bet on dwarves, since dwarves are out of their possible dominion. (And, on the other hand, the Japan-in-a-fantasy people are, for example, under the exclusive dominion of the god of South)

Eh, that would make attempts to convert other beings rather pointless, and we've seen the idea arise in the comic without anyone batting an eye.

Honestly, I think it's merely a matter of unmoving tradition and lack of adaptability that lead the Dwarves to remain loyal to their Northern Gods despite the utterly ridiculous situation they happened to pick out for the demands of their afterlife. They're not slaves - they're just inhumanly culturally static.

[Lethologica]

Do we learn anything about this from Gontor as a test case? After all, he did leave the Northern pantheon. He just didn't follow another one.

[Kish]

Eh, that would make attempts to convert other beings rather pointless, and we've seen the idea arise in the comic without anyone batting an eye.

We have? The only example I can remember of anyone actually trying to convert anyone else, or acting as though they valued "you worship the same god as me," cleric or otherwise, was Elan trying to get enough worshipers for his hand puppet to let him actually hurt Roy with divine lightning.

[The MunchKING]

We have? The only example I can remember of anyone actually trying to convert anyone else, or acting as though they valued "you worship the same god as me," cleric or otherwise, was Elan trying to get enough worshipers for his hand puppet to let him actually hurt Roy with divine lightning.

Durkon tried to convert the Orcs to Thor before Elan got them to Giggles.

IIRC the angel tried to convert Xykon to unspecified “Good” religion before he zombies her.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Second, AFAIU Thor has no particular privilege over the dwarves.

Though his lifestyle and worldview are awfully familiar to many dwarves.

We have? The only example I can remember of anyone actually trying to convert anyone else, or acting as though they valued "you worship the same god as me," cleric or otherwise, was Elan trying to get enough worshipers for his hand puppet to let him actually hurt Roy with divine lightning.

The concept has been brought up a few times before, but rarely plot-relevantly. It was part of Haley's story about how he knew Father Thundershield, and since she wasn't under a glibness effect, it was probably a vaguely plausible lie.

[Necris Omega]

The concept has been brought up a few times before, but rarely plot-relevantly. It was part of Haley's story about how he knew Father Thundershield, and since she wasn't under a glibness effect, it was probably a vaguely plausible lie.

This is the one I was thinking about specifically, though -

Durkon tried to convert the Orcs to Thor before Elan got them to Giggles.

IIRC the angel tried to convert Xykon to unspecified “Good” religion before he zombies her.

- are good too.

In the end, if all souls had pre-determined deity restrictions based on point of origin, this probably wouldn't be a thing. If there were race specific deities that would also be possible, as in many other settings, but here... with a few notable exceptions, most gods seem racially nonrestrictive.

[The MunchKING]

In the end, if all souls had pre-determined deity restrictions based on point of origin, this probably wouldn't be a thing. If there were race specific deities that would also be possible, as in many other settings, but here... with a few notable exceptions, most gods seem racially nonrestrictive.

The three race-gods we've heard about were also all deified after living as mortals and not part of the original God-sets.

The Dark One for Goblins, the Indecsisive One for the Dwarves, and V's Mysterious Elven God of Secrets. :P

[a1chemi]

This is the one I was thinking about specifically, though -



- are good too.

In the end, if all souls had pre-determined deity restrictions based on point of origin, this probably wouldn't be a thing. If there were race specific deities that would also be possible, as in many other settings, but here... with a few notable exceptions, most gods seem racially nonrestrictive.

Or maybe it's simply that you can worship whoever you want, and in the end that has no bearing on where your soul goes...in the Oots world.

Roy was told that his religion, or lack thereof, had no bearing on his destination. Only paladins and clerics are held to such a standard. It would be extremely unlikely for a cleric or paladin to switch faiths, and even more so for dwarves.

Also we have never seen anyone actually convert. Puppets and Haley's drunken ruse don't really make compelling examples of piety.

[Lethologica]

The concept has been brought up a few times before, but rarely plot-relevantly. It was part of Haley's story about how he knew Father Thundershield, and since she wasn't under a glibness effect, it was probably a vaguely plausible lie.

I considered posting that one, but as Haley grew up in the North, she would still fall within the Northern gods' purview in that model, so it's not a relevant example.

With that said, I find the idea that people from each region are divinely blocked from converting to the pantheon of another region extraordinarily silly, and more to the point, in violation of the principle that the gods won't directly intervene in mortal affairs.

[brian 333]

As The Giant said so long ago, belief of the individual matters.

In my opinion, if a Thor worshipper dies in the far south, he still belongs to Thor because he has believed this is his destiny since he began worshipping Thor.

If a Thor worshipper converts to a southern deity, he would be sent to the southern pantheon's afterlife.

I'm supposing that the northern pantheon is for dwarves by default due to cultural influence. Even if they are like Roy, lacking devotion to a specific deity, they will have grown up immersed in the concepts of Northern culture.

Both Hilgya's appearance now and Roy's acceptance of her worries me, though. She's a sign that things are about to get bad enough that they need a high level healer.

But what really worries me is that Roy seems to be trying to do the opposite of what he thinks is right, while it was his judgement that got them this far. I hope he gets over this fast, possibly due to an ironic lecture from Hilgya, because a leader who second guesses himself too much or allows his subordinates to make his choices does not long remain a leader.

[Dr.Zero]

Though his lifestyle and worldview are awfully familiar to many dwarves.

I don't see how this point -Thor, through the normal deal, being able to become the most relevant god in the dwarven pantheon[*]- is relevant.



On the other argument (namely: the possibility that the inhabitant of the OOTS's universe have limited free will, when chosing their gods) I don't think it has good chances to be true, for a meta-reason: I don't think the author would like it.

But, aside that, I don't see really any big contradiction in what we have seen.
Atheists (as much as an atheist you can be, when you KNOW gods exist for real!) as Roy and Haley or animists as the earth cult dudes don't break it, because they didn't move from a pantheon to another. Conversions from one god to another one within the same pantheon (or from atheism or whatever to a god in your "zone") don't break it, so the existence of people converting is fine.

A point might be done about goblinoids, who converted to a completely new pantheon, but a counterpoint is that probably the goblinoids didn't belong to any pantheon, initially, since they were created as xp-fodder.

Anyway lacking a proof of falsehood doesn't imply that there is proof enough of truth.
It was just a fun theory as good as any other.

[*]If he really is the most relevant overall for all the dwarfs, and not only the most relevant in Durkon's clan.

[Ruck]

But what really worries me is that Roy seems to be trying to do the opposite of what he thinks is right, while it was his judgement that got them this far. I hope he gets over this fast, possibly due to an ironic lecture from Hilgya, because a leader who second guesses himself too much or allows his subordinates to make his choices does not long remain a leader.

1)I don't think there's enough of Roy in this strip to make any broad conclusions about him, certainly not the he's "trying to do the opposite of what he seems is right"; more specifically, I think you're reading too much into a line easily explained by his already established Deadpan Snarker tendency.

2)One of the lessons Roy has been learning this book is to listen to his teammates and accept help when he needs it. Roy has in the past made quite a few mistakes from refusing to do so; when you say "his judgment got them this far," that includes getting blindsided by the Azure City invasion because of his question to the Oracle, getting himself killed in the Battle of Azure City, neglecting what the deva was trying to tell him about Vaarsuvius, and other mistakes large and small, I'm sure.

[a1chemi]

Both Hilgya's appearance now and Roy's acceptance of her worries me, though. She's a sign that things are about to get bad enough that they need a high level healer.

V got hit with 3 level drains and they haven't even seen the high level vampires yet. Things are already bad enough that they need a high level healer. Elan gets it.

[Emanick]

V got hit with 3 level drains and they haven't even seen the high level vampires yet. Things are already bad enough that they need a high level healer. Elan gets it.

Honestly, what they really need is Restorations. They have potions, but those can only deal with hit point loss (and maybe a few other things, depending on their type).

So yeah. Having a high level cleric is good.

[Shining Wrath]

A question has been raised in my mind - are there any dwarves outside the demesne of the Northern Pantheon? Not visitors like Durkon and Hilgya were, but actual clans doing their dwarvish thing for generations? I don't think so, but it would pose a conundrum relating to the bet.

Another question: did Thor have "standing" to make the bet? Do no other gods of the Northern Pantheon have an interest in dwarven souls? We know there was a dwarf high priest of Odin, which indicates Odin is doing the "pass my power to a cleric to gain worshipers" bit with dwarves - so, Odin must collect some of the dwarf souls that die with honor. And Loki as well. Durkon's explanation to Malack was that dwarves that died with honor go to the plane appropriate for their alignment.

It would serve Hel right if she did manage to get the world destroyed and then Loki pulled the "invalid contract" card and the rest of the Northern Pantheon backed him - because every one of them stands to lose souls they might otherwise gain, although probably not too many for Thrym and the like.