How to theurge? (Arcane/Divine multiclass help)

[SkipSandwich]

Hey all, my primary AL character is currently stuck in Barovia and it looks like it might be a while before the next ravenloft module of his tier will come up. While I was thinking of new character ideas I could roll up to play in the meantime, I got curious about Mystic Theurge builds (arcane/divine full caster multiclass). What would be the best way to go about building a character like that?

Books I have available: PHB, DMG, MM, Volo's, SCAG (via a friend)

AL legal (PHB + 1) builds are preferred, but any and all theroycraft will be welcome.

Thanks in advance for your assistance!

[Nifft]

Favored Soul 20

Lore Bard 20

Arcana Cleric 20

Paladin X / Sorcerer (20-X)

Paladin X / Bard (20-X)

Wizard 10 / Druid 10

[Falcon X]

Cleric 1/Wizard X - My go-to. The cleric level may seem token, but it gets you a bunch of cantrips and lvl 1 spells to add to your list, including healing and bless. Also comes with weapon and armor proficiencies. (Death gives martial weapons and double chill touches, storm and war give heavy armor)
For flavor, I say the person worships a god of magic OR a less powerful being that wouldn’t grant high spells.
So, their temples train them in wizardry instead of priestly rituals.
Gods like Wee-Jas, Boccob, or Vecna are perfect for this. Weaker powers might include an arch-fey, an archomental, or a demo-god.

Cleric 1/SorcererX - same as above, only sorcerer.
The flavor gets interesting because they can meld into your race. Be a dragon blooded person who serves a dragon god. Be an air genasi who worships an air archomental. Be divine soul of the same god you worship or one of his angels.

Arcane Domain Cleric from SCAG - I mean, this exists for your purposes, I guess.

Paladin 3/Sorcerer 17 (Sorcadin) - widely regarded as one of the most powerful combos as the sorcerer slots can fuel the divine smites. More martial than it sounds like you want though.
Perfect for a Ruby Knight Vindicator if Wee-Jas :)

[Khrysaes]

theurgic wizard UA of course. But for AL legal, Favored soul or Arcane cleric.

[Falcon X]

theurgic wizard UA of course. But for AL legal, Favored soul or Arcane cleric.

Theurge Wiz is, of course, ideal. But it’s not going to be AL legal.
Still, if you can talk your DM into it, GREAT! You will love it.
Be warned that it is a big producer of shenanigans. You might have to make promises to the DM if things you won’t do.

My personal character:
Pythagoras Johnson
Cleric (Death) 1/Theurge Wizard (Knowledge) 9
He is sooooo full of spells and skills.
Shenanigan warning: Knowledge of Ages mixed with Fabricate spell means he can make intricately detailed anything. BIG money maker if you decide to go merchant.

[SkipSandwich]

Thanks for the feedback!

Why so many recommendations for 1 level cleric dips though? By My reading of the spell caster multiclass rules even if I have 9th level slots I would prepare spells as a 1st level caster, aka, limited to only 1st level.

[8wGremlin]

Yes that's true:
but 1st level cleric can get you Medium and possibly Heavy armour.
bless, cure lt wound, and guidance - some of them can be up-cast.

Death Domain gets you Martial weapons as well I think.
Forge Domain gets you Heavy and you can make armour or weapon +1

[sithlordnergal]

What level is your character? I assume they are above tier 2?

[MrStabby]

Thanks for the feedback!

Why so many recommendations for 1 level cleric dips though? By My reading of the spell caster multiclass rules even if I have 9th level slots I would prepare spells as a 1st level caster, aka, limited to only 1st level.

The one level dip is pretty great. For higher level spells it makes no difference on even numbered levels but always gives you some cleric spells (min 2) and cleric cantrips.

Level 1 cleric spells are pretty awesome with options like bless and healing word. They can work well with low wisdom which is nice.

A big boost is the level 1 abilities. Proficiency in weapons and armour is a common one to pick. There are often others as well (knowledge cleric is very popular).

[Arkhios]

Big change in regards to previous editions (excluding 4th edition completely since it's nothing like the rest particularly in this matter) is that while you are only limited to preparing 1st level spells as a 1st level cleric, you don't prepare spells into spell slots in advance – meaning that your chosen spells don't yet determine their actual spell level until you cast them. Also, keep in mind that spells you have prepared can be cast multiple times with just one preparation (and, while you might prepare a spell, not casting it does not deprive you of your spell slots)

So, if you prepared Healing Word, as result to being cleric 1/wizard 8, for example (thus having access to 5th level spell slots), you could cast that very same Healing Word from a 5th level spell slot, making it in all respects a 5th level version of it, healing 5d4+wisdom, as appropriate.

The only things limited by multiclassing in regards to spellcasting are the amount of spells you can know or prepare and their listed level. Spell slots are completely separate from that.

So, for this reason (and the others already mentioned, such as bonus proficiencies and other features), even one level of cleric gives you a lot.

My opinion: if you want to feel like both cleric and arcane caster simultaneously, Cleric (Arcane Domain) 1/Sorcerer (Divine Soul) X would be my choice. That way you can learn even high level cleric spells – including revivify and raise dead – only one level behind, and still be able to choose powerful "arcane related" spells as a sorcerer.

While you would only get medium armor and shield from cleric, they help you much because you don't have to invest much more than 10 or maybe 12 in Dexterity, letting you focus on Wisdom and Charisma (prioritizing Charisma).

For AL (or equivalent), consider this:

Str 8, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 15

Variant Human for race, Resilient (Con) for feat, and +1 to both wis and cha.

Final array: Str 8, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 16.

I know, I know, taking Sorcerer first, then cleric, would get you your Con saves, but I think medium armor, shield proficiency, two (2) more hit points, AND Con saves at first level beats that easily. With cleric first you'd still have very mystic theurgic feel since you'd be able to cast Magic Missiles, and a bunch of cantrips from wizard list. With wis 16 you won't even be bad with them.

[Laserlight]

Knowledge Cleric 1 gets you medium armor, Guidance cantrip, Healing Word, Bless--Bless may be worth the dip on its own--and skills. Want Expertise on your Arcana skill?

After that, Divination wizard. Because Portents. There may be other class abilities which are useful more often, but when a dragon ambushes you and suddenly half your party is in single digit HP, you can say "I cast Polymorph and the dragon's saving throw is a 4".

You get full spell slots. Half the time you'll have slots of a higher level than you can prep spells for (I have an L4 slot but can only prepare L3 spells), but you can upcast to use that slot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your easiest bet is one of the "natural theurge" subclasses-- Divine Soul (it's not Favored Soul anymore, guys) and Arcana Cleric are published, and Theurge Wizard is UA-only (any poorly balanced). If you do one of those, I suggest nabbing Ritual Caster alongside it, to provide a bit more of the cross-class magic.

A dip, as mentioned, works nicely at the cost of some progression. Because you only ever have one set of spell slots, which you can fill with spells known/prepared from any of your component classes, you don't lose out on that much, and some level 1 spells work well for your whole career-- things like Bless, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, and Faerie Fire on the divine side, and Absorb Elements, Shield, Charm Person, Find Familiar, and even Magic Missile on the arcane side. You might even go up to three levels of off-caster to add in 2nd level spells to the mix, but I'd be wary of losing too many levels of your "main" class.

A 50-50 split is going to be your least effective option. You'll be so far behind the curve on both sides that even up-casting spells won't have enough effect to keep you relevant.

[BoringInfoGuy]

No love for Life Domain?

Life Domain Clerics also get Heavy Armor, and the Domain spells of Bless and Cure Wounds are spells you are likely to want prepared anyway (Or at least Bless).

One of the problems with going Theurge is that you end up with two primary casting stats. Int / Wis or Int / Cha. Trying to get a +3 bonus into two casting stats can leave your stats lacking in other areas. If you focus on Arcanist with a dip in Cleric, you can use cleric to focus on spells that are not tied to your Wisdom bonus. Bless is a great example. Detect magic is on the cleric list, and can be cast as a ritual if prepared. That means you don’t need it on your arcane list, and fleets you grab another spell there.

What about Healing? That does use your wisdom mod, so you don’t want to dump that, right? Well, that is where the the best Life Domain feature (IMO) comes into play.

The Disciple of Life feature granted at level one makes all your Healing Spells restore additional HP. Even better, it scales with Spell Slot used, not Cleric Level. (An additional 2 HP + spell level)

So even if you only had a 13 Wis to make the multiclassing minimum, a 1st level Life Domain Cleric Cure Wounds would do 1D8 + 4 Healing while a typical cleric of any other Domain with a 16 - 17 wisdom would only heal 1D8 + 3.

Upcasting Cure Wounds to a 2nd level slot with the same 13 Wis would the heal 2D8 + 5, compared to the other Domains healing just 2D8 + 3 (16 - 17 Wisdom).

While healing is not highly valued in 5e, if you need to heal, Life Domain means you will do better than other clerics, even with a low wisdom score. Not to mention it works on any spell that restores HP, not just cleric spells.

Cleric 1 is a strong dip. Life Cleric 1 is a strong cleric choice.

[SkipSandwich]

I'd like to thank everybody for all their contributions!

Looking over my options and with the help of your advice, I think I will be going with a Life Cleric 1/Abjuration Wiz X, vHuman with Resilient CON as my bonus feat. Between Heavy Armor, Wis/Con save proficiency and Abjuration specialty, the character should be more-or-less guaranteed to be the last man standing, which sounds pretty fantastic.