Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Lemmy]

The Goku x Superman comes up for a lot of reasons. It's emblematic of many of Death Battle's problems, for one, so it's natural that people will bring it up when the same problems appear in other videos. It's also very controversial, so there are lots of passionate opinions about it. Even so, no one is here "only to talk about those two", everyone discussing that match also discuss other ones, and often make very valid comparisons between that GxS and other matches. It is part of the discussion and will always be.

It's not worth creating another thread for that sub-topic, IMHO. You can do it, if you want... But if I have something to say about GxS, I'll probably just say it here anyway. It's relevant and within the subject of the thread.

[Rynjin]

I agree. Goku vs Superman is a well and true derail at this point. Discussing the subject for ****ing PAGES at a time every few days is just asinine and drowns out discussion of anything else.

Next time it happens I'm probably just going to petition a mod to move you guys to a different thread forcefully if you don't do so on your own. You're borderlining the rules against spam as far as I'm concerned.

[Reddish Mage]

The problem isn't so much toxicity surrounding Superman vs. Goku. Once we got to talking about the fight itself things settled down.

By itself, Superman/Goku (its actually Goku v. Superman) is at worse boring and repetitive, but then a lot of our arguments we make here has been repetitive. After settling down into analyzing the fight things got more interesting.

The problem is how we got to talking about it in the first place:

Or unlike the superman goku fight they will acknowledge that yes, this version of sora has gained enough strength speed durability and status effecting abilities to win this time. After all, this time I dont think they will be claiming one of the combatants is an utterly limitless fighter who can never be defeated because all his stats are infinite.

See, they did this with Superman v Goku 2, did the fight way too early.

And comparing it to the Superman vs Goku fights is just telling that they're gonna doa double standards thing where they cherry pick for the one they want to win while give a more even analysis of the one they want to lose and then maybe the rematch will somehow be even more onesided in the favor of the person who should logically lose.

It started with an attempt to take a highly controversial assertion about Death Battle's bias and motives, proven by a salacious exhibit, and inject it into every fight.

Death Battle bias and motives talk is what's toxic. The content itself is derogatory. Its also an attempt to say Death Battle doesn't matter and to do so in the Death Battle thread.

Moreover, making the claim that specific fights prove generalizations about Death Battle's trollish motives is itself instigating behavior.

The specific fight being brought up doesn't matter.

[Rater202]

I agree. Goku vs Superman is a well and true derail at this point. Discussing the subject for ****ing PAGES at a time every few days is just asinine and drowns out discussion of anything else.

Next time it happens I'm probably just going to petition a mod to move you guys to a different thread forcefully if you don't do so on your own. You're borderlining the rules against spam as far as I'm concerned.

You can't have a mod boot people for having an ontopic cconversation. Deathbattles did two Goku vs Superman Videos.

They made rulings on both ends that people disagree with.

As this is the thread to discuss the videos as well as the rulings and our opinions thereof, including the perceived bias or motives in those and other videos, Red, this discussion is by it's nature on topic.

We're not trolling people. We are not flaming people. We are having civil discussions about DB videos and claims including our own opinions and statements about why we disagree with them backed up with facts from the source material.

Honestly, people complaining about people talking about Goku v Superman is less on topic and these conversations wouldn't go on as long if people who dislike them didn't get involved in the discussions and try to say "no, your opinion is wrong and I don't care how many bits of facts and logic support your opinion."

The "Book that Superman says has infinite pages" debate gettign people insisting that the book ways infinity becuase superman said so every time somone points out reasons why it logically can't probably added at least a page and a half.

[Traab]

Honestly, I didnt even mean to trigger this whole thing, I was just saying that its entirely possible they will do a repeat battle if sora loses this one like they did with goku when he got his new super modes only its possible for the ultimate outcome to be different in the second fight because unlike the goku/superman fight, db isnt on record as stating Pit has no limits therefore he wins. At least not yet

[Reddish Mage]

Honestly, I didnt even mean to trigger this whole thing, I was just saying that its entirely possible they will do a repeat battle if sora loses this one like they did with goku when he got his new super modes only its possible for the ultimate outcome to be different in the second fight because unlike the goku/superman fight, db isnt on record as stating Pit has no limits therefore he wins. At least not yet

Perhaps you didn’t mean to trigger a thing. However, come on “utterly limitless fighter who can never be defeated because all his stats are infinite?” You had to know someone was going to follow up on that comment.

As this is the thread to discuss the videos as well as the rulings and our opinions thereof, including the perceived bias or motives in those and other videos, Red, this discussion is by it's nature on topic.

No, its not an essential nature of a debate to insult your opponents, suspect thier motives, and call them bold-faced liars.

These snipes against Death Battle injected into every conversation we have is highly toxic. This is the equivalent of someone attacking bronies every topic that comes up in MLP thread, or suggesting Hasbro and MLP authors are writing their episodes to intentionally teach young girls how to misbehave.

Here, your claiming authors have these secret motives for choosing winners and failing to do the work they say they do (and show videos of them doing, such as a recent video showing glances of their computer displaying screens full of videos, internet pages, and other treatments of their characters).

Its defamatory. There has never been reason to suspect the authors of evil, disruptive, intentions. The authors goals do not include trolling, nor is it intentionally spreading disinformation, and they do not write episodes without any research. There are no indications of this sort of thing. All the comments and podcasts and behind the scenes from the crew the put out the videos suggest they do quite a bit of work and debate to come up with a winner.

Its a problem in thread debates when people express an opinion and then conclude anyone who disagrees either hasn’t done the most cursory look at the subject, or is maliciously attempting to spread falsehoods.

When you make such suggestions, you are not just maligning Death Battle, but you are implying these things about the people debating you as well.

[Rater202]

No, its not an essential nature of a debate to insult your opponents, suspect thier motives, and call them bold-faced liars.

Which is irrelevant, because I haven't called you or anyone else a liar, suspected yours or anyone else's motives, or insulted anyone in this thread.

DB isn't a participant in the debate, they're the subject of the debate. The debate being whether or not they've made mistakes or shown unreasonable bias in their videos, with Goku v Superman being the ultimate example demonstrating that yes, there is a degree of bias..

After the second video came out, they explicitly stated that the reason Superman one is, becuase whille Goku has infinite potential, Superman is literally infinte.

Except their entire reason for that are the occasions where he is claimed by fans to lift the infinite weight.

If Superman's unconfirmed speculation that a magic book meant to be lifted and read by human-sized people had infinite pages is taken as proof that Superman can lift ifninity, then in-0universe claims that Goku's power level has increased should also be counted.

I mean, I have to imagine that one of the creator Gods of the universe knows more about the universe and what can and can't destroy it than Superman knows about a book that he literally just saw for the first time.

That they were not taken into account when Superman's unconfirmed claim was is a sign of clear bias.

Its defamatory. There has never been reason to suspect the authors of evil, disruptive, intentions.

Except when they insist that there's no possible way for a character to defeat another character when their reason for insisting so boils down to "thhe character who we say wins claimed that he lifted infinity," which is at best an example of faulty reasoning.

As I have explained. Several times.

Claiming that I'm wrong when I give my reasons of suspecting them of major errors or maliscious bias is not the same as there being no errors or bias.

[Traab]

Perhaps you didn’t mean to trigger a thing. However, come on “utterly limitless fighter who can never be defeated because all his stats are infinite?” You had to know someone was going to follow up on that comment.

Well considering they basically said exactly that it was a reasonable comment to make. They boiled the whole thing down to "Goku is about someone overcoming his limits, superman is about someone who HAS no limits." I wasnt really so much agreeing with that as repeating their stance on why superman, to them, will always win against goku. And also why that meant the outcome of a rematch with kh3 stats could have a different winner. Assuming pit wins this time of course. After that I kinda got sucked back into the vortex.

[Rater202]

Actually... Uh, something that just occurred to me.

Androids 17 and 18 have infinite energy and stamina.

In Dragon Ball, this means that all of their stats are infinite as strength, durability, speed, and everything else passed a certain point(that everyone was well past by the time they showed up) is a function of energy.

Piccolo fused with Kami was 17's equal and comparing feats even when 17 comes back more powerful in Super Goku is still stronger than him.

Kid Buu is also cited as possessing infinite energy and stamina, and this would logically also extend to Super Buu, who was surpassed easily by Gohan.

Gohan having just gotten back to the level he was on in that part of the Buu Saga, in the form he was in when he surpassed the strongest form of Buu, is roughly the Equal of KaiokenX10 SSJB Goku, meaing that end of Super Goku is equal too or stronger than someone who surpassed the strongest "infinite" being in his native universe.

So even if Superman is infinite, people who are finite have equaled or surpassed people who were infinite in Dragon Ball.

[tyckspoon]

Actually... Uh, something that just occurred to me.

Androids 17 and 18 have infinite energy and stamina.

In Dragon Ball, this means that all of their stats are infinite as strength, durability, speed, and everything else passed a certain point(that everyone was well past by the time they showed up) is a function of energy.

False equivalence. Infinite stamina means one does not get tired or wear out during extended activity; you can use your maximum power at all times and you will not exhaust yourself. The other stats you've mentioned are a result of how much energy you can apply at any given time. Having infinite energy does not imply or require that you can use it all at once, which would be what you'd have to do to actually be infinite in any of those. The fact that the Androids and other 'infinite energy' characters were in fact beaten by non-infinite energy characters should immediately suggest that your idea is wrong - the other characters were able to apply more energy to beating them than the supposedly-infinite characters could use at any one time.

..or we must accept that Gohan and other characters are somehow all infinite, and not only infinite but more infinite, which invites all sorts of pseudo-mathematical weirdness and means any comparison of power level is basically meaningless. Which, I guess you could go that way, and it wouldn't make Dragon Ball power levels any less sensible.. but that seems like an unnecessary complication.

[Rynjin]

The Androids have unlimited Ki reserves but lack the ability to "power up" like humans (and other races) do.

That means their maximum power output at any one time is fixed, though all of their attacks can (and will) be at that level of power and never drop or waver.

[Rater202]

False equivalence. Infinite stamina means one does not get tired or wear out during extended activity; you can use your maximum power at all times and you will not exhaust yourself. The other stats you've mentioned are a result of how much energy you can apply at any given time. Having infinite energy does not imply or require that you can use it all at once, which would be what you'd have to do to actually be infinite in any of those. The fact that the Androids and other 'infinite energy' characters were in fact beaten by non-infinite energy characters should immediately suggest that your idea is wrong - the other characters were able to apply more energy to beating them than the supposedly-infinite characters could use at any one time.

The only stated limit on how much energy you can use at any given time, however, is how much energy you have.

If Android 17 hasinfinite power and stamina, he can therefore put arbitrariyl high amounts of force into something.

The fact that the Androids and other 'infinite energy' characters were in fact beaten by non-infinite energy characters should immediately suggest that your idea is wrong - the other characters were able to apply more energy to beating them than the supposedly-infinite characters could use at any one time.

..or we must accept that Gohan and other characters are somehow all infinite, and not only infinite but more infinite, which invites all sorts of pseudo-mathematical weirdness and means any comparison of power level is basically meaningless. Which, I guess you could go that way, and it wouldn't make Dragon Ball power levels any less sensible.. but that seems like an unnecessary complication.

Or we can accept that Dragon Ball characters cann defeat people with infinite power without themselves being ifnite.

Alternativly, we have to apply that logic to Superman. Superman has been defeated by characters, like Doomsday or Darkseid, who are just better than him. This would indicate that either they too are infinite... or that Superman himself is not infinite.

Death Battles gives Goku being about constantly surpassing hislimits as their reason for why he's not infinite and thus can't beat Superman... But that would mean that Doomsday, a being with regenerative and ressurective immortality whose primary power is overcoming his limitations and evolving past that which killed him before, is not infinite.

Which means that Superman has been killed or been unable to defeat a being who is not infinte.

Which would logically mean that, by Death Battle's reasoning, that Superman is not infinite.

[Traab]

The only stated limit on how much energy you can use at any given time, however, is how much energy you have.

If Android 17 hasinfinite power and stamina, he can therefore put arbitrariyl high amounts of force into something.

Or we can accept that Dragon Ball characters cann defeat people with infinite power without themselves being ifnite.

Alternativly, we have to apply that logic to Superman. Superman has been defeated by characters, like Doomsday or Darkseid, who are just better than him. This would indicate that either they too are infinite... or that Superman himself is not infinite.

Death Battles gives Goku being about constantly surpassing hislimits as their reason for why he's not infinite and thus can't beat Superman... But that would mean that Doomsday, a being with regenerative and ressurective immortality whose primary power is overcoming his limitations and evolving past that which killed him before, is not infinite.

Which means that Superman has been killed or been unable to defeat a being who is not infinte.

Which would logically mean that, by Death Battle's reasoning, that Superman is not infinite.

This is never going to end is it? Maybe we really should consider setting up a superman goku discussion thread to talk about anything related to the subject in general. Then take a pact, "WE SHALL NEVER MENTION THOSE TWO FIGHTS THAT NEVER HAPPENED ON DEATH BATTLE HERE!"

[Rater202]

This is never going to end is it? Maybe we really should consider setting up a superman goku discussion thread to talk about anything related to the subject in general. Then take a pact, "WE SHALL NEVER MENTION THOSE TWO FIGHTS THAT NEVER HAPPENED ON DEATH BATTLE HERE!"

The thing is, the discussion is both on topic to this thread and doesn't make sense except in the context of Deathbattles and their rulings on the subject.

I'm not saying that Goku automatically wins(Though I think that End of Namek Goku onward could win against most versions of Kal El)I'm specifically arguing about DB's reasoning for why Goku can never, ever win, ever forever.

And this is the thread to be having this discussion.

EditAnd we've got Sora's preview video.

It only shows scenes and only mentions events from the first game and also gets a couple of lore details wrong.

This doesn't fill me with hope.

[Anteros]

Ok...so here's where we stand. Some people are going to talk about these topics sometimes. They are on topic for the thread and not inherently disruptive. No amount of whining that you don't like the direction the conversation is going is going to make everyone else stop talking about things that are perfectly on topic for the thread. You can either put half the posters in the thread on ignore, leave the thread, or simply ignore the conversations that don't interest you like every other adult in the world does. Silencing every person who wants to talk about something you're not interested in is not one of your options.

Mods are also presumably not going to remove people from a thread for having a valid conversation just because a few posters don't like the topic. They might shut this whole thread down for toxicity though with the way it's going.

Also, being critical of Death Battle itself (or any other form of media being discussed) is not the equivalent of attacking other posters. Attempting to compare them is silly. It might be a valid comparison if the DB writers posted here, but to my knowledge that is not the case.

[Rynjin]

Ok...so here's where we stand. Some people are going to talk about these topics sometimes.

Sometimes? Sure, I could live with. But it's EVERY TIME a new match up is announced.

They are on topic for the thread and not inherently disruptive.

Wrong on both counts. This is not the "Superman vs Goku" thread, and when every attempted discussion is either drowned out or derailed by ceaseless, whiny, repetitive nerd tantrums it is certainly a disruption.

The disruption comes from the fact that it's impossible to hold a discussion about anything else because of a dedicated few that take any mention of any half-related Death Battle topic and turn it back into the same tired bickering mess. If the DC universe is ever mentioned, it folds back to Goku vs Superman within three posts. Hell, if comics of ANY kind are ever mentioned the same thing happens.

You may as well rename the thread "Six Degrees of Goku v Superman" and have ****ing done because some of you people will find any excuse to dredge it back up even when it really isn't relevant to any topic being discussed at the time.

If it weren't for Hanlon's Razor I'd attribute it to deliberate trolling because it definitely SEEMS like a dedicated and malicious effort to try and drag people into a fight as much as possible.

No amount of whining that you don't like the direction the conversation is going is going to make everyone else stop talking about things that are perfectly on topic for the thread. You can either put half the posters in the thread on ignore, leave the thread, or simply ignore the conversations that don't interest you like every other adult in the world does. Silencing every person who wants to talk about something you're not interested in is not one of your options.

It's not about silencing, it's about facilitating discussion. Take the topic elsewhere so people can talk about ANYTHING ELSE for once. If that thread dies, then it means you all finally realized it's a topic that's been beaten to death and resurrected so many times it's an affront to every sane person that has to witness it day in and day out.

[Anteros]

At the end of the day, we're still going to talk about the things that we feel are relevant to the discussion regardless of whether you like it or not. I'm sorry if it bothers you, but you don't get to decide what everyone else wants to talk about.

The mere fact that you're complaining that it dominates the thread is proof that people are still interested in talking about it. Otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion about it. Surely you can understand that, right?

Honestly, the only thing that's actually off topic are these arguments about what we should or should not be allowed to talk about. If you truly feel like someone is derailing threads then you should message a mod. These conversations where you try to decide what we are or are not "allowed" to talk about are completely non-productive.

[Rater202]

The only thing off topic about discussing the Goku vs Superman videos, which are Death Battles videos, is, ironically, people complaining about people disscussing them.

This doesn't have to be the Goku vs Superman Thread. Becuase we're not discussing Goku versus Superman in general. We're specifically discussing it in the context if the Death Battles videos andtheir other statements on that topic.

Also, they wouldn't dominate the thread if the handful of people who completely agree with the ruling didn't jump on any mention of complaints about that ruling.

[Forum Explorer]

The only thing off topic about discussing the Goku vs Superman videos, which are Death Battles videos, is, ironically, people complaining about people disscussing them.

This doesn't have to be the Goku vs Superman Thread. Becuase we're not discussing Goku versus Superman in general. We're specifically discussing it in the context if the Death Battles videos andtheir other statements on that topic.

Also, they wouldn't dominate the thread if the handful of people who completely agree with the ruling didn't jump on any mention of complaints about that ruling.

On the other hand I haven't seen a new point regarding Superman vs Goku in what feels like ages. It's complaints about Death Battle's analysis, calculating Goku's power, people arguing that said calculations are meaningless since they never show anything different, people brining up mostly the same insane Superman feats, other people saying that doesn't make sense, and bringing up lowball Superman stuff.


And it's getting old. As far as I can tell it's only a couple people who are keeping the conversation alive and refusing to let it die.

[Anteros]

And it's getting old. As far as I can tell it's only a couple people who are keeping the conversation alive and refusing to let it die.

If that's true, then just don't engage in that conversation and it'll die out on its own. I very much doubt it's true though. Goku vs Superman is DB's largest, most controversial video. It's the main reason most people even know that they exist. Of course people are going to talk about it. Even if everyone posting now agreed to never mention it again, someone else would bring it up within a few pages.

[McNum]

Honestly, I'm finding Superman vs. Goku tiresome by now. They did it. Twice. We never really talk about the new fights because it's Superman this, Goku that. When I posted the Crash vs. Spyro fight, it had almost been a day since the video was uploaded, and I interrupted a discussion of you know who against that guy. I almost miss Link vs. Cloud or Toph vs. Gaara. Because they're not Kal El vs. Kakarot. Just... enough already. The arguments have been made, repeatedly, for pages upon pages. We get it. Really, we do.

How about Raiden vs. Wolverine? Is a HF Blade equivalent to antimetal? Or even Kirby vs. Buu. That one made even me go "Wait, seriously?" Or even good old Rainbow Dash vs. Starscream? ...though I don't see anyone argue for Starscream in that. Starscream's special ability is losing in the most humiliating way. Which he did. For novelty's sake, we could even discuss the current and upcoming fights.

Just, please. No more kryptonian vs. saiyan. Enough already.

[Reddish Mage]

On the other hand I haven't seen a new point regarding Superman vs Goku in what feels like ages. It's complaints about Death Battle's analysis, calculating Goku's power, people arguing that said calculations are meaningless since they never show anything different, people brining up mostly the same insane Superman feats, other people saying that doesn't make sense, and bringing up lowball Superman stuff. .

Actually there is plenty of other things that have and could be said, and some of these arguments that could just get repeated in other ways on other Death Battles.

Goku's power multiplications are meaningless both because they are inconsistent, they aren't borne out in fights, and even if you calculate out Goku's total output, they don't match the durability of Superman which is "tanking many times Supernova" level.

We spoke about power displayed vs. spoken of in Sora v. Pit as well as the related subject about how much to rely on game mechanics (specifically RPG mechanics).

However, there hasn't been a lot of discussion on Goku's specifics. Nobody has once mentioned that Goku never outright wins his big fights. Not since original Dragon Ball. He expires and Vegata is overpowered by Yajirobe of all people. Frieza slices up himself. Cell is Gohan's work. For Buu he uses the power of all the people and souls on Earth....and so on all the way to Jiren. Is it particularly relevant? Only if we analyze victory from a story perspective (which happens, someone just mentioned Starscream has the special ability to lose spectacularly).

For there to be a Superman v. Goku thread it would have to have to be aimed at solving certain specifics like the high and low points of Superman and Goku, what there average combat looks like (vs what they say is going on) and so on. Its also hard to do because for Superman specifically, because Death Battle went with an older version of Superman who feats are shown in old comics. Who would moderate such a thread?

[Rater202]

They did it. Twice. We never really talk about the new fights

We talk about each and every video as they come out.

I mentioned the Sora preview video and how them only mentioning things from the first game doesn't speak well to Sora's chances in a post I did last night.

Goku's power multiplications are meaningless both because they are inconsistent, they aren't borne out in fights, and even if you calculate out Goku's total output, they don't match the durability of Superman which is "tanking many times Supernova" level.

1: Do you have a citation on Golu's power multipliers being inconsistent? Other than Death Battles claiming that their research says so?

Superman's feats of durability are:

1. nking 1 Supernova from the planetary distance.
2. Tanking brief contact with the electromagnetic shockwave the preceded a multi-nova explosion--and honestly, Superman has never, to my knowledge, been depicted as being harmed or weakened by radiation that wasn't Red Sun or Kryptonite based. considering that even without the bio-electric forcefield, Superman's tissued must logically be as dense, if not much, much denser than lead, coupled with him withstanding a nuclear explosion 100 times that of a nuclear bomb without suffering any form of radiation sickness(The blast itself harmed him)... Honestly, Clark is probably immune to conventional radiation, so withstanding the shockwave isn't exactly that big a deal since most of the damage would be radiation.
3. Withinstanding the Gravity of a Blackhole, which I previously cited is more a feat of his flight than of his durability
4. Superman has resisted an attack from a weapon that is stated to be capable of destroying ten star systems.
5. Conversley, Superman consistently goes down to an attack that is a low-level planet buster at the worst, being able to pierce the Earth but not destroy it.
6. Meanwhile, Goku exceeded the level of power needed to destroy an entire Galaxy a long, long time ago.

Broly at the absolute highest possible power level he had at the time, 14,000,000 based on calculations derived from his stated PL in his LSSJ form, casually wiped out a Galaxy and every star, planet, and presumably black hole in it in an instant. As of resurrection F, Goku is roughly equal in his SSJB form to Golden Frieza, who's stated power is 100,000,000,000,000,000,000, though Frieza's energy control is worse than Goku's leading to him being no match. Let's assume for simplicity's sake that "roughly even" is "even."

Now let's assume for the sake of argument that Goku only got more skilled, not more powerful, after Rez F. If Blue is even to Golden Frieza, Koiken Blue pushes him up to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 before the Tournament or 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 during the Tournament.

That's 13 orders of magnitude higher than the power needed to casually wipe out an entire galaxy in an instant and then a little under half that total again.

We have determined in a previous discussion that energy output is an exponential function of power level, but even if it was linear, as I've previously assumed, Superman has never resisted a Galaxy Buster attack as far as I can find, let alone an attack several orders of magnitude beyond a galaxy buster.

At that point, it's not "can Goku beat Superman?"

It's "If Goku is going all out and going for the kill, as Death battles rules indicates, Can Superman kill Goku before Goku gets a good hit in?"

Which is honestly a much more fair and reasonable debate than what Death Battles depicted.

[Ibrinar]

The supernova thing specifies that if the main part of the explosion caught up to superman he would be incinerated only the electromagnetic part hit him so I think that is slightly misleading.

Anyway supernovas are a good example for what bothers me about how many people tend to analyze feats. Why do people talk like surviving a 50 supernova explosion is enough info to be a feat in itself? Without estimating the distance it is essentially meaningless oh of course surviving a supernova at all is impressive but if we are looking at high level fights distance is essential. Say the sun explodes and you are on earth. Distance earth sun about 149.600.000 km that gives a sphere surface of 2.8*10^23 m² So lets say a human fills 2.8 m² to make it simple and you get about 10^-23 of the energy passing through your position. If you aren't containing all energy of an explosion the difference between distances isn't trivial.

For that feat he is actually pretty close though that is hard to tell and he does try to flee and there is no real way to know how far he is when the electromagnetic part gets him. So the difference is much smaller than 23 orders of magnitude. But the point is if you are inferring strength from feats only mentioning the impressive sounding part can often be meaningless without context.

[Devonix]

Going into something more interesting to discuss. I'm against the rainbow dash vs Starscream fight as anything other than a joke battle that's entertaining.

Starscream has both massive FTL speed as well as reaction time. And weapons that can and do level city blocks with ease

[Rater202]

They were specifically only doing the G 1 Starscream and the G4 Rainbow Dash though.

Has Gen 1 Starscream demonstrated any of those feats?

And to be fair, I think they used a well-known fan-calc that stated that, if Rainbow Dash's contrails are accurate, when she rainbooms she's going Mach 10

[Devonix]

They were specifically only doing the G 1 Starscream and the G4 Rainbow Dash though.

Has Gen 1 Starscream demonstrated any of those feats?

And to be fair, I think they used a well-known fan-calc that stated that, if Rainbow Dash's contrails are accurate, when she rainbooms she's going Mach 10

In a word yes. Starscream's g1 jet mode is shown doing interstellar travel. Making it minimum massive FTL. And his g1 comics speed massively outpace that.

[Forum Explorer]

Going into something more interesting to discuss. I'm against the rainbow dash vs Starscream fight as anything other than a joke battle that's entertaining.

Starscream has both massive FTL speed as well as reaction time. And weapons that can and do level city blocks with ease

Does anyone miss the joke battles? I don't. They typically were rather bad, and always felt like they were phoning it in on the analysis. Particularly Zelda vs Peach. The best joke battle is Pinkie Vs Deadpool, which was great because of how they actually stayed true to the characters, breaking their own rules in the process.

In a word yes. Starscream's g1 jet mode is shown doing interstellar travel. Making it minimum massive FTL. And his g1 comics speed massively outpace that.

Only in space I believe. And besides, none of that shows up in his actual fights. Starscream regularly gets beat by slower then light attacks all of the time.

[Seppl]

In a word yes. Starscream's g1 jet mode is shown doing interstellar travel. Making it minimum massive FTL. And his g1 comics speed massively outpace that.

Strategic speed is not tactical speed. And both are only loosely related to reaction speed. Unless I am forgetting something huge, Starscream has only ever shown his supersonic jet as his top combat speed. His reaction speed and dexterity are about equal to that of a rather clumsy human. I cannot remember him having any weapon coming close to destroying a city. Can you be more specific what you are talking about?

[Devonix]

Strategic speed is not tactical speed. And both are only loosely related to reaction speed. Unless I am forgetting something huge, Starscream has only ever shown his supersonic jet as his top combat speed. His reaction speed and dexterity are about equal to that of a rather clumsy human. I cannot remember him having any weapon coming close to destroying a city. Can you be more specific what you are talking about?

If you are capable of having dogfights at interstellar speed then that's combat speed. And the reason he doesn't fly that fast on Earth is that it would make no sense. If you try to fight someone going 120 mph and you're going FTL. All that happens is that you miss every shot because you're going too fast. So you have to slow down to a comparable speed to your opponent.