Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Reddish Mage]

All of these things would matter if we were talking about defeating schemes and plots. But the discussion is about who he"fights". And his combat is almost exclusively street level and henchmen. A major element of his villains is that almost none of them pose an actual physical threat.

Now you are talking about their physical abilities? Skills? Weapons?

Traab and Glandariel weren't talking about whether any Batman's rogues could punch the city or carried a laser that could do the job with them.

They don't have to. They have minions and technology and political connections or something that let's them get that job done when they want to.

Batman only has that sort of city-destroying with a punch strength himself on rare occasions when he's putting on a special suit for Justice League level stuff, or one-offs when he gets Superman's powers or something. Usually, he contributes to dealing with such powerful villains through his intelligence and skillful use of technology.

He is well matched with villains that take the same approach rather than villains that can blow him and his gadgets away with a casual wave of their little finger (even if he would approach them after little-finger-proofing his gadgets and never present the proper target for getting blown up).

The contention was that Batman's character is being altered to the breaking point when he does that sort of stuff because his typical villains is supposedly "The Bank Robber!" and similar "street-level" criminals.

Now you are basically using the term "street level" to mean something totally different. What can Ra's do without some big bomb, or magic, or an army of ninjas, like he usually has on hand when he's fighting Batman? What is Ra's like by himself and how much mayhem can he cause if he were to try wacking Gotham with just his standard weapons?

The answer is on his own Ra's Al Ghul would probably kill everyone in power given a few days and leave the city strategically without important stuff like power and water.

Or the ones that do often have serious flaws for a brilliant detective with access to lots of money can research and exploit.

Yes indeed, that would be the rest of what Batman faces, typically in cross-overs and Justice League stuff. This is how Batman can contribute, even own, a Justice League level encounter while convincingly having problems with his own rogues.

Batman's usual villains resemble Batman in being resourceful, intelligent, and strategic in their application of force rather than relying on brute strength and cosmic-level powers. When they do cross-overs or attack the Justice League, they act a lot like Batman for their group.

Its absurd in lots of ways, but the whole premise is a setup for comics that frequently violate the laws of physics and is full of wondrous gadgets and superpowers. A certain amount of leeway is necessary.

Can Batman, the character from the solo comics, be the same character that does cross-overs and Justice League events? Yes, yes he can. Do they need to alter that character in a way that introduces a fundamental inconsistency or is it just the usual tension when a loner learns to act as part of the team? I would say its the latter.

[Traab]

I note you have to add "with casual ease" to destroying cities. Batman opponents can (and often do) threaten to destroy Gotham but typically need elaborate plans to put that into action.

I question how much power is necessary. So what if Batman's solo-comic rogues don't tend to have Superman-levels of strength, speed or the fantastical sorts of technology. What they do have though is perfectly suitable for the job, and that job is way above street crime. At times some of them have shown they can threaten the nation or the world.

Superman himself has plenty of rogues that threaten things at a local level. Silver Banshee, Morgan Edge, Toy Man, not every one of Superman's villains is always threatening the entire world or meeting Superman blow for blow. Even, Lex Luthor himself has no powers.

I assume "The Bank Robber!" is a hypothetical supervillain or a characterization of perhaps The Joker. I think that's selling Batman's villains short.

I accept that Batman's main villains don't tend to have similar superpowers as Superman villains, but that doesn't mean they are lacking in their own version of super-resourcefulness. Batman doesn't have to take on foes like Darkseid everyday to help out against Darkseid, he just has to take on foes that are powerful enough that he idea that he can take on Darkseid isn't the exaggerated joke you make it out to be.

Batman is making a leap when he takes on Justice League level threats, the question is how much of a leap. Its no where near the absurd levels you are making it out to be.

Yes, I said casual ease, as in, its a power they have to topple buildings or blow up towns like juggernaut, or magneto. Batman doesnt have that in his rogues gallery, his bad guys have powers that at best make them car tossing level. None of them have access to anything that joe blow down the block in gotham couldnt also do with the same materials. Its theoretically possible for anyone on earth to build nukes, should we then declare that regular humans are city destroying level threats?

How about this for an effective description. The vast majority of batmans rogues gallery could be taken down permanently by a sniper. Easily. Most of supermans gallery could not. If your average cop could theoretically take down your villains, then you are not fighting a very high tier of bad guys. Joker? Not bulletproof. Ivy? Not bullet proof Freeze? Not bullet proof. Riddler, two face, mad hatter, penguin, ras al ghul, catwoman, man bat, scarecrow, not bulletproof. Aside from bane, who I THINK is bulletproof, and clayface, there really isnt much that a competent police force couldnt handle in gotham.

[Anteros]

The thing is, that a sniper couldn't actually do that. Sure, it might make sense from a real world perspective, but in the comic the villains are just too supernaturally good to expose themselves. The same thing could apply to most of Flash's rogues, most of Superman's rogues, and even Batman himself, but they're just too skilled or lucky to let it happen. There's an arc going on right now where Luthor has been shot and is in critical care...but that doesn't stop him from threatening the entire planet on a regular basis.

[Lord Raziere]

The thing is, that a sniper couldn't actually do that. Sure, it might make sense from a real world perspective, but in the comic the villains are just too supernaturally good to expose themselves. The same thing could apply to most of Flash's rogues, most of Superman's rogues, and even Batman himself, but they're just too skilled or lucky to let it happen. There's an arc going on right now where Luthor has been shot and is in critical care...but that doesn't stop him from threatening the entire planet on a regular basis.

Luck is just another name for the writer, friend. There is no luck in a story, only what the writer deems happen. What you are speaking of is plot armor, and in this kind of discussion we can safely discard it.

[Anteros]

Luck is just another name for the writer, friend. There is no luck in a story, only what the writer deems happen. What you are speaking of is plot armor, and in this kind of discussion we can safely discard it.

If you say so. At that point you're just arbitrarily deciding which parts of the characters you want to keep or discard to suit your argument though, so there's no meaningful discussion to be had.

[Traab]

The thing is, that a sniper couldn't actually do that. Sure, it might make sense from a real world perspective, but in the comic the villains are just too supernaturally good to expose themselves. The same thing could apply to most of Flash's rogues, most of Superman's rogues, and even Batman himself, but they're just too skilled or lucky to let it happen. There's an arc going on right now where Luthor has been shot and is in critical care...but that doesn't stop him from threatening the entire planet on a regular basis.

The point being, these are threats regular humans could deal with without too great of an issue while the ones superman fights are not. Thats the general gist of the term "street level" Just because in comic book land noone is allowed to stay dead, good or bad, doesnt change the reality that street level is basically talking about unpowered or low powered bad guys who could be taken out due to their weakness to hot lead injections. Im not sure why you guys arguing this point are being so pedantic about it. The question was "what are street level bad guys" and its been answered... alot.

[Anteros]

The point being, these are threats regular humans could deal with without too great of an issue while the ones superman fights are not. Thats the general gist of the term "street level" Just because in comic book land noone is allowed to stay dead, good or bad, doesnt change the reality that street level is basically talking about unpowered or low powered bad guys who could be taken out due to their weakness to hot lead injections. Im not sure why you guys arguing this point are being so pedantic about it. The question was "what are street level bad guys" and its been answered... alot.

Because regular people can't deal with them. That's just your personal unwillingness to accept part of the setting because it doesn't make sense to you. In the comics, it takes someone who is supernaturally skilled or powerful to deal with them. People like the Joker who would die instantly in the real world regularly take down the entire Justice League in the comics.

I'm not willing to value your personal sense of verisimilitude over what is actually written in the stories. I'm willing to accept that these characters can be skilled far beyond what is actually humanly possible the same way that I'm willing to accept a flying Kryptonian dog.

[Keltest]

If you say so. At that point you're just arbitrarily deciding which parts of the characters you want to keep or discard to suit your argument though, so there's no meaningful discussion to be had.

The plot armor of characters like The Joker isn't an inherent property or superpower of the character though the way Superman being literally bulletproof is. Theres no reason that somebody with a good perch couldn't shoot him in the sternum a half dozen times if they were expecting him, its just that Gotham's law enforcement is so terrible that nobody can actually muster the resources and initiative to position a good sniper or three at an event that they expect one of Batman's rogues to hit.

[Rater202]

Snipers are more military that city police.

It's entirely possible that Gotham PD doesn't want State police or the military stepping on their toes.

Alternatively, Commissioner Gorden doesn't want to alienate Batman and his allies, the only crime fighters in the city who can regularly get things done, by employing lethal force without a trial, since Batman hates killing and also hates guns.

Also, snipers aren't as useful as some people seem to think: They're really only useful if you know exactly where a person is going to be and have a hidden perch with ine of sight to them or else having multble snipers in nests in strategic locations as a defensive emplacement.

[Reddish Mage]

What does it matter if, purely theoretically, the villains are at least physically vulnerable to guns and can’t punch cities into oblivion?

Our original conversation is that this means Batman somehow is absurdly weak compared to other JLA heroes and has no business in those comics or against those villians.

The simplicity of this argument relies on pure physical strength and hardiness of the hero’s villians being the measurement level of a superhero. Which is dubious.

However, Batman has been in those types of comics and doing his shtick against those types of villians at least sometime around 1960. It’s embedded in his DNA.

It’s a lot more apt to talk about what it means for Batman in a Death Battle. Batman is gets for a Death Battle his “abilities” “skills” and “weapons.” We know that doesn’t (usually) include one-offs abilities or some highly unusual or uncharacteristic weapons and skills. What’s more, things like plot armor and other narrative characteristics don’t usually transfer to a Death Battle.

What we’re left with is questioning what abilities, skills, and weapons Batman would use to take down a superpowered characters and whether any of those capabilities could work against Black Panther.

[Traab]

Because regular people can't deal with them. That's just your personal unwillingness to accept part of the setting because it doesn't make sense to you. In the comics, it takes someone who is supernaturally skilled or powerful to deal with them. People like the Joker who would die instantly in the real world regularly take down the entire Justice League in the comics.

I'm not willing to value your personal sense of verisimilitude over what is actually written in the stories. I'm willing to accept that these characters can be skilled far beyond what is actually humanly possible the same way that I'm willing to accept a flying Kryptonian dog.

Watch the clip to Mad Love again. See how harley is tossed out the window? That hospitalized her. Tell me, what would happen to say... metallo if you tossed him out a second or third story window? Thats right, nothing. He would stand up, leap back through the busted window, and continue fighting. Thats the difference between bad guy tiers. Throw the joker, riddler, two face, penguin, ras al ghul, mad hatter, scarface's human, etc out the same window, they go to the hospital, because they are frail meat sacks with no particular power to protect them, and they are the majority of batmans rogues gallery. Yes there are some who could tank that fall and be fine, but the vast majority would break bones upon hitting the ground and be done fighting for awhile till they heal up. Thats what it means to be a street level villain.

[Anteros]

Watch the clip to Mad Love again. See how harley is tossed out the window? That hospitalized her. Tell me, what would happen to say... metallo if you tossed him out a second or third story window? Thats right, nothing. He would stand up, leap back through the busted window, and continue fighting. Thats the difference between bad guy tiers. Throw the joker, riddler, two face, penguin, ras al ghul, mad hatter, scarface's human, etc out the same window, they go to the hospital, because they are frail meat sacks with no particular power to protect them, and they are the majority of batmans rogues gallery. Yes there are some who could tank that fall and be fine, but the vast majority would break bones upon hitting the ground and be done fighting for awhile till they heal up. Thats what it means to be a street level villain.

So what? Metallo has plenty of other weaknesses that Harley doesn't. You're overvaluing physical endurance for a comic book setting.

[Keltest]

So what? Metallo has plenty of other weaknesses that Harley doesn't. You're overvaluing physical endurance for a comic book setting.

Sure, but how many of those are weaknesses that Joe cop off the street could feasibly exploit? Physical endurance is almost always the difference between needing the World's Greatest Detective and needing the Man of Steel to defeat. There is a level of force where you stop being able to out think or out plan it, and that is where something stops being a street level threat.

[Anteros]

Sure, but how many of those are weaknesses that Joe cop off the street could feasibly exploit? Physical endurance is almost always the difference between needing the World's Greatest Detective and needing the Man of Steel to defeat. There is a level of force where you stop being able to out think or out plan it, and that is where something stops being a street level threat.

Ok...but again. Joe Cop in the comic setting will NEVER actually manage to exploit those weaknesses because the characters are too supernaturally good for it to happen. You could put a cop in full tactical gear into an arena with the Joker 1000 times, and Joker would come out on top every single time. Honestly, he'd probably come out on top over Metallo himself as well.

This is just something that you have to be willing to accept about the setting, even if you don't think it makes sense.

[Devonix]

Ok...but again. Joe Cop in the comic setting will NEVER actually manage to exploit those weaknesses because the characters are too supernaturally good for it to happen. You could put a cop in full tactical gear into an arena with the Joker 1000 times, and Joker would come out on top every single time. Honestly, he'd probably come out on top over Metallo himself as well.

This is just something that you have to be willing to accept about the setting, even if you don't think it makes sense.

When discussing things like this Plot Armor is assumed turned off.

[Anteros]

When discussing things like this Plot Armor is assumed turned off.

You're calling it plot armor, but it's canon in the setting that the characters are actually that good. You're basically picking and choosing what parts of the characters you want to consider to fit your narrative and justifying it by saying those aspects you don't want to consider are just plot armor. Every character in every setting has plot armor, but characters like Batman or the Joker are skilled beyond that. It's explicitly part of their character.

[Lord Raziere]

When discussing things like this Plot Armor is assumed turned off.

Exactly, if we assumed plot armor was always on, these kinds of discussions would never get anywhere. Because plot might as well be fate: once it is written, thats all that will ever happen. Its not as if we roll dice to see what probable event is going to occur next in the story then turn to that page and how the story plays out is different form what is rolled. There is only one version of the story written and it is set in stone once its there. Therefore plot armor must be turned off to have any discussion about these hypothetical situations. It does not matter if in the plot, a villain never gets taken out by a cop, it matters that logically a villain could theoretically BE taken out by one in a manner that is plausible and makes sense.

[Rater202]

The point is that, for all he's skilled, the Joker still goes down if a physically fit but otherwise normal man manages to punch him in the face really hard, and the Joker only has mundane skill to prevent himself from being punched in the face.

Most national, planetary or cosmic tiered threats will not, however, go down to an ordinary punch from an ordinary man, no matter how hard he punches. Against someone like Darkseid or Doomsday, a normal man would break his fist trying to punch them in the face.

That Batman can regularly outfox or come up with some gadget or tactic that lets him beat people who he would kill himself trying to punch out in crossover stories means that, in his own series, there's not much tension in stories where he tracks the bad guy down with ordinary detective work and then punches them out, because we know that if he pulled out the resources he uses against the big boys, he could wrap up his normal rogues in minutes.

compared to Marvel's Stark and Richards, who really only deal with people on the level of Batman's rogues if they happen to be there when they're robbing the bank or whatever. Most of the time, they're focused on the international and cosmic threats that, over in the Distinguished Competition's universe, that Batman only touches when he's working with the League or hanging out with Clark.

[Keltest]

Ok...but again. Joe Cop in the comic setting will NEVER actually manage to exploit those weaknesses because the characters are too supernaturally good for it to happen. You could put a cop in full tactical gear into an arena with the Joker 1000 times, and Joker would come out on top every single time. Honestly, he'd probably come out on top over Metallo himself as well.

This is just something that you have to be willing to accept about the setting, even if you don't think it makes sense.

the Joker is not supernaturally good. The Joker just exists in an environment where being good at avoiding confrontation like that is not a particularly necessary skillset. The Gotham PD is horrifically, tragically incompetent. It isn't a case of the Joker being good, but the cops being bad.

[Anteros]

the Joker is not supernaturally good. The Joker just exists in an environment where being good at avoiding confrontation like that is not a particularly necessary skillset. The Gotham PD is horrifically, tragically incompetent. It isn't a case of the Joker being good, but the cops being bad.

You can't use that justification because he's equally effective elsewhere. Whether he's mucking around in Metropolis, or taking down the Justice League, or the United Nations. It's not like it's particularly rare for him to operate on a larger scale than just Gotham.

[Traab]

the Joker is not supernaturally good. The Joker just exists in an environment where being good at avoiding confrontation like that is not a particularly necessary skillset. The Gotham PD is horrifically, tragically incompetent. It isn't a case of the Joker being good, but the cops being bad.

The gotham pd exists to give us a group to watch dodge as bane tosses their squad cars at them. Meanwhile you have cops like this in metropolis. Admittedly it doesnt end well for him personally, but yeah. Now THATS a cop!

[Lord Raziere]

You can't use that justification because he's equally effective elsewhere. Whether he's mucking around in Metropolis, or taking down the Justice League, or the United Nations. It's not like it's particularly rare for him to operate on a larger scale than just Gotham.

Yes, the other places where all the other superheroes are NOT detectives like Batman. so all they have are ridiculous superpowers not fit for finding him, without any skills round them out. isn't it a coincidence that the best person to take on the Joker just so happens to be the only person with the skills to counter his hiding skills? its almost as if this was all intentionally written so that Batman and Joker are the ones who face each other the most. I wonder why.

[Keltest]

You can't use that justification because he's equally effective elsewhere. Whether he's mucking around in Metropolis, or taking down the Justice League, or the United Nations. It's not like it's particularly rare for him to operate on a larger scale than just Gotham.

As far as I'm aware, if the Joker leaves Gotham to go take on the Justice League, he rarely has any success when working alone. Its only when working with super powered individuals that he starts having any success above his weight class, which, hey, is what we've been saying.

[Anteros]

As far as I'm aware, if the Joker leaves Gotham to go take on the Justice League, he rarely has any success when working alone. Its only when working with super powered individuals that he starts having any success above his weight class, which, hey, is what we've been saying.

Well...you're incorrect on that count. He takes down the League fairly regularly, usually as part of some plan against Bats. Look at Injustice (non canon) or Endgame (canon) for recent examples.

[Traab]

Well...you're incorrect on that count. He takes down the League fairly regularly, usually as part of some plan against Bats. Look at Injustice (non canon) or Endgame (canon) for recent examples.

Endgame. Is that the one where we learn the joker is an immortal who has been around for im not even sure how long? It kind of skews him as the character ive grown up with imo. Yeah its canon but its one of the odder canons.

[McNum]

Black Panther vs. Batman is out!

Spoiler: Rumble in the Jungle: Panther vs. Bat!

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The zoo setting was kind of neat. And yeah, fairly evenly matched, except Batman didn't have the offense needed to get through the Vibranium armor, while Black Panther does know how to get through Kevlar. Makes sense to me.

Spoiler: Next time on Death Battle...

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Raven of the Teen Titans vs. Twilight Sparkle of My Little Pony!

Ponies are back, but I am not sure this one will go all too well for Twilight. She's not as powerful solo as she is with her friends at her back. And Raven is a comic book character and probably pretty powerful from that.

And the funny side: It's a Tara Strong duel! She voices both in the cartoons.

[Kitten Champion]

Spoiler: Next time on Death Battle...

Show

Raven of the Teen Titans vs. Twilight Sparkle of My Little Pony!

Ponies are back, but I am not sure this one will go all too well for Twilight. She's not as powerful solo as she is with her friends at her back. And Raven is a comic book character and probably pretty powerful from that.

And the funny side: It's a Tara Strong duel! She voices both in the cartoons.

According to her wiki page, Raven has the ability to nullify emotions. Which seems a clincher against the power of Friendship.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: next time

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I'm gonna give it to Twilight.

She's one of the most powerful magic users in her setting, can fly and controll the weather(she accidentally a tornado while practicing flying,) has enhanced strength and stamina due to EarthPony Magic, and has demonstrated the abillity to copy spells on sight and cast them better than the original user on a couple of seperate occasions.

Also, if they really wanted to give her the Win, they could go ahead and claim that she has her Alicorn Magic power up(When the other Princess's gave Twilight all of their magic to keep it safe from Tirek, making Twilight equal in Power to a Tirek who had absorbed the magic of literally all the Ponies plus Spike and Discord) all the time. Since that's exactly the kind of thing that Death Battle often gets wrong or lies about to tip the scale in someone else's favor.

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler: Next Time

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I'd give it to Twilight solely on the basis of DB favoring ponies to troll everyone else. Seems like the kind of thing they'd do, and have done. Twice.

Legit, though, Raven takes this unless she goes demonic. At that point, we know from her fights with Sunset and Tirek, Twilight gets arbitrary power-ups to de-escalate (as with Sunset) or imprison (as with Tirek) her foes.

[McNum]

According to her wiki page, Raven has the ability to nullify emotions. Which seems a clincher against the power of Friendship.

Spoiler: Next time...

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Considering what Twilight can do when she's not held back by fear or guilt... I wouldn't do that. When ponies break, they break hard.

I do suppose representing the Element of Magic has some advantage in a mage fight, though. I just seem to remember Raven being a half-demon or something and possibly on the world threatening level if she goes bad. Twilight... isn't. It is, however, notable that while Twilight's magic is firmly on the side of light magic, she can cast Dark Magic. She just really doesn't like to. So the whole copying someone else's spell and doing it better should work against Raven no matter what she does.