Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Kitten Champion]

Kenshiro has some vague OP abilities (specifically Muso Tensei) that if you interpret generously could be an argument for his win. Which - because I believe most people will assume a Jotaro win here - they might go with.

I genuinely don't know why people spoil-box upcoming matches, does it undermine people's enjoyment of the series to know that the next episode will exists and has X and Y character in it?

[Devonix]

While kenshiro can't see star platinum that's not really a problem.

SP can't deal enough damage to take kenshiro out. And. Kenshiro can one shot Jotaro.

Also not being able to see a stand doesn't stop you from being able to harm one

[McNum]

Kenshiro has some vague OP abilities (specifically Muso Tensei) that if you interpret generously could be an argument for his win. Which - because I believe most people will assume a Jotaro win here - they might go with.

I genuinely don't know why people spoil-box upcoming matches, does it undermine people's enjoyment of the series to know that the next episode will exists and has X and Y character in it?

Eh, the next battle reveal is part of the fun of the video. So I keep it spoiler tagged just so others can be surprised, too, if they want to. It's a very short lived spoiler, a few hours when everyone has seen it and it stops being relevant, but for those first few hours, I tag it.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: This time

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While I don't entirely disagree with the result, I do have a quibble.

If they both have a bunch of instant KO spells that would work on each other, then shouldn't the fight come down to reaction speed?
Though I would accept the argument that Raven's Soul Self would guarantee a win since Twilight could disable Raven, but likely not the Soul Self so even if she did go first, Raven's soul would still beat Twilight and restore Raven.

Spoiler: Next Time

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I'm looking forward to this. I've only got a passing knowledge of both of these, but they seem to be very funny and over the top. So this should be good.

Now I'm wondering if they would ever do the rest of the ponies. And who their opponents would even be.

[Rater202]

Also not being able to see a stand doesn't stop you from being able to harm one

It's canon that only a Stand can harm a Stand.

Kenshiro does not have a Stand.

Ergo: Kenshiro can't hurt Star Platinum.

Nor can he see Star Platinum, and while he's capable of taking out Jotaro in one shot, he has to get past Star Platinum, who can move through the air at Super Human speeds and stop time.

[Lord Raziere]

Kenshiro has some vague OP abilities (specifically Muso Tensei) that if you interpret generously could be an argument for his win. Which - because I believe most people will assume a Jotaro win here - they might go with.

*looks up Musou Tensei*

ok, so he can communicate with the souls of dead rivals. huh. I guess if we're being really generous, Kenshiro could somehow communicate with Dio to somehow get The World and match his time stopping abilities, but thats a very long stretch......mostly because it assumes that:
1. Dio is dead, and I don't watch Jojo's much but if I remember, Dio has a reputation for not dying.

2. that doing so won't just give Kenshiro his own unique stand, which is chancey all on its own because there is no guarantee the Stand will be one that can counter Star Platinum, but at least Kenshiro would be able to hurt Star platinum with his own attacks? thing is, Stands are pretty much your personal battle summon made from your own fighting spirit, so its not likely that pressure point techniques can actually hurt those.

3. that Dio counts as a rival to Kenshiro because Jotaro is fighting Kenshiro and thus a rival of a rival.

4. alternatively he could call one of his own dead rivals to pull out a technique that could be useful, but I don't have enough knowledge of North Star either to say what he'd use of if there is anything that would be useful.

so yeah, this is clearly leaning towards Jotaro, unless Kenshiro pulls something fantastic off. but Kenshiro seems to be all about doing more with less and being a omni-prepared little bugger, so he might just be able to? that and I think Jotaro is more well known and popular, so they can tick off more people by making him lose.

[Kitten Champion]

Muso Tensei also makes him temporarily invincible... or incorporeal or something.

Apparently he used it to fight as a ghost while in a coma.

SP can't deal enough damage to take kenshiro out.

Really? I suppose that's a plausible rational as well.

[Keltest]

It's canon that only a Stand can harm a Stand.

Kenshiro does not have a Stand.

Ergo: Kenshiro can't hurt Star Platinum.

Nor can he see Star Platinum, and while he's capable of taking out Jotaro in one shot, he has to get past Star Platinum, who can move through the air at Super Human speeds and stop time.

While I'm not at all familiar with the source material, I think its rather likely that, when choosing a matchup, they considered the possibility of one character having a power that literally prevented them from being harmed in any way by the other character. I'm not saying youre wrong, just that it probably wont end up being that simple when the next one comes around.

[Forum Explorer]

While I'm not at all familiar with the source material, I think its rather likely that, when choosing a matchup, they considered the possibility of one character having a power that literally prevented them from being harmed in any way by the other character. I'm not saying youre wrong, just that it probably wont end up being that simple when the next one comes around.

They did Quicksilver vs Flash. And Flash is simply faster then Quicksilver by an entire order of magnitude. Like, no real hard research to do there. Oh, and also Thor vs Raiden.

[Rynjin]

@Raziere: Hm? Kenshiro has basically meme Chuck Norris levels of fanwank power, so I wouldn't say Jotaro is more popular. Hell, Kenshiro was the direct inspiration for the original JoJo (Jonathan).

The powers are what are stacked against Kenshiro. Star Platinum is at least as fast and strong as he is, incredibly precise, indestructible and invisible, and can stop time for 10 seconds (assuming they use Jotaro at his strongest rather than part 4 or part 6 Jotaro).

[Rater202]

While I'm not at all familiar with the source material, I think its rather likely that, when choosing a matchup, they considered the possibility of one character having a power that literally prevented them from being harmed in any way by the other character. I'm not saying youre wrong, just that it probably wont end up being that simple when the next one comes around.

I'm stating how a fight between them would actually go.

I'm sure that DB will conveniently forget that Kenshiro can neither see nor harm Star Platinum or else somehow overlook those facts if they want him to win.

Just like how they totally missed the fact that Miguel O'Hara did, in fact, have the powers of Thor when he wielded Mjolnir, he just dind't gain the armor or Asgardian Physiology.

Seriously, that fight should have been so one-sided in Spidey-99's favor that it's not even funny.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's canon that only a Stand can harm a Stand.

Kenshiro does not have a Stand.

Ergo: Kenshiro can't hurt Star Platinum.

Nor can he see Star Platinum, and while he's capable of taking out Jotaro in one shot, he has to get past Star Platinum, who can move through the air at Super Human speeds and stop time.

Doesn't damage to the user reflect back to the Stand? So if he could somehow get past SP...well, that's a pretty big "if".

*looks up Musou Tensei*

ok, so he can communicate with the souls of dead rivals. huh. I guess if we're being really generous, Kenshiro could somehow communicate with Dio to somehow get The World and match his time stopping abilities, but thats a very long stretch......mostly because it assumes that:
1. Dio is dead, and I don't watch Jojo's much but if I remember, Dio has a reputation for not dying.

Spoiler

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As per part 3, he's very much dead. The show goes to particular lengths (beyond his previous presumed demises) to reiterate this.

[Dragonus45]

In his prime Jotaro and Star Platinum can move at intense speeds, hit with enough force to pulp someone, and stop time for several seconds to ruin someones day. Now, since he isn't an immortal vampire he can only use the time stop stuff so often from the strain but frankly a few seconds of of a stand wailing on Kenshiro will be the end of any fight. Now, it is likely that Death Battle will invoke the later series Jotaro who had some rough old age problems from a life of ass kicking and time stopping but even then Star Platinum: The World would carry the fight. Reallt he issue here is they have the wrong JoJo's, presumably because they aren't particular fans and just follow the memes so it would be an easy mistake to make. Johnathan is the Joestar they actually wanted and would have been a much better fight. Or Battle Tendency era Joseph since thematically he was meant to be an answer to the variety of protagonist that Kensiro epitomized.

Also Star Platinum: The World Over Heaven could also hypothetically show up and that would just be awkward for everyone.


Also as a side note the idea that only a Stand can harm another Stand is not entirely correct. Ripple was shown to harm stands and I swear at some point Spin did as well but its been ages. The general idea is that mundane things and techniques can't harm them. So pressure point head explosion fu isn't going to achieve much.

[Prime32]

Johnathan Joestar is a more direct Kenshiro clone, but I'm not sure he'd have the raw stats to match up with him (even if he uses his surroundings well and has some weird powers that Kenshiro doesn't).

Also as a side note the idea that only a Stand can harm another Stand is not entirely correct. Ripple was shown to harm stands and I swear at some point Spin did as well but its been ages. The general idea is that mundane things and techniques can't harm them. So pressure point head explosion fu isn't going to achieve much.

IIRC Kenshiro learns how to shoot ki blasts at some point. He just doesn't use it very often because he thinks it's an impractical technique that was created mostly for showing off.

Also I think his Musou Tensei state was originally vulnerable to those kinds of attacks, but he overcame that?

[Dragonus45]

Johnathan Joestar is a more direct Kenshiro clone, but I'm not sure he'd have the raw stats to match up with him (even if he uses his surroundings well and has some weird powers that Kenshiro doesn't).

Raw stats might be a bit off but the fight would still be more interesting. Since Ripple and Hokuto Shin Ken have a lot of potential for a cool fight scene. Personally I think Kenshiro wins that fight, but would lose against any other member of the Joestar family with Josuke being a strong maybe.

[Prime32]

@Raziere: Hm? Kenshiro has basically meme Chuck Norris levels of fanwank power, so I wouldn't say Jotaro is more popular. Hell, Kenshiro was the direct inspiration for the original JoJo (Jonathan).

Kenshiro even looks kind of like Chuck Norris when he doesn't shave.

[Rynjin]

Also as a side note the idea that only a Stand can harm another Stand is not entirely correct. Ripple was shown to harm stands

[Citation Needed]

The only Stand/Hamon intersect in the whole series is when Joseph wraps Hermit Purple in it to fight Dio, and it never touches The World. It burns Dio's hand a little bit, and then he handily disposes of Joseph with no effort.

[Kitten Champion]

I remember a bit where Joseph tried to use Ripple on one of the Tarot assassins out of desperation, and it ending with him being tossed aside and mocked for how useless it and he was.

I think it was during the flight sequence with the Tower Stand-User.

[Dragonus45]

[Citation Needed]

The only Stand/Hamon intersect in the whole series is when Joseph wraps Hermit Purple in it to fight Dio, and it never touches The World. It burns Dio's hand a little bit, and then he handily disposes of Joseph with no effort.

Its been a while but I could swear that earlier on in the first section of Stardust Crusaders he hit an enemy stand with Ripple, I want to say it was The Lovers.

:EDIT: I googled it and it seems that may have been an anime only moment.

[Rynjin]

Can you post it? Death Battle may very well pull from anime-only stuff.

Part 3 was the last part I actually read in the manga (I actually didn't like Stands at the time I was reading so stopped; I only got on the "Stands are neat" train when part 4 got animated), so I'm not sure about the Spin interaction either if you happen to know where that is.

[Dragonus45]

Can you post it? Death Battle may very well pull from anime-only stuff.

Part 3 was the last part I actually read in the manga (I actually didn't like Stands at the time I was reading so stopped; I only got on the "Stands are neat" train when part 4 got animated), so I'm not sure about the Spin interaction either if you happen to know where that is.

I'll look for it.

Spoiler: JoJo Steel Ball Run and Stone Ocean Spoilers

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Spin is an alternate universe form of Ripple. I'll spoil this since its ages away from animation and not of any major concern to the Death Battle at hand and the alt universe stuff is itself a potential spoiler for Stone Ocean. Part 7 takes place in a sort alternate world where things are sort of the same but still different with alt universe Caesar named Gyro Zepelli. Spin seems to use some energy similar to Ripple to make objects rotate and fire off with geometry magic. Johnny Joestar has a Stand that makes extensive use of it, but Gyro goes pretty much the entire the arc without a stand. Only activating his once he perfects the spin.

[Reddish Mage]

So little discussion on the actual death battle.

Spoiler: This time

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While I don't entirely disagree with the result, I do have a quibble.

If they both have a bunch of instant KO spells that would work on each other, then shouldn't the fight come down to reaction speed?
Though I would accept the argument that Raven's Soul Self would guarantee a win since Twilight could disable Raven, but likely not the Soul Self so even if she did go first, Raven's soul would still beat Twilight and restore Raven.

I’m pretty your “alternative” is exactly how the Death Battle resolved itself

Spoiler: Raven vs. Twilight

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The two used their instant win spells on each other Twilight turned Raven into a twig as Raven captured Twilight in her soul-self realm and drained her of emotion. Only Raven recovered due to her soul-self while Twilight could not.

I myself would not have seen that as there was no indication Raven could recover from spells like that in the analysis, while Twilight could handle being emotionally drained (they say not without external intervention) and can certainly escape from dimensional traps (other sorts of traps might be more difficult).

Still, there are too many ways Raven can win easily if she has the cosmic level powers they gave her, and even dead Raven isn’t apparently dead-dead. Raven’s gold dead-self is her strongest form.

Now I'm wondering if they would ever do the rest of the ponies. And who their opponents would even be.

I don’t think it makes for the best Death Battle doing one pony after another. The first was for sheer novelty, Pinkie Pie vs. Deadpool was an excuse to break all the rules, and Twilight was the first straight Death Battle involving a My Little Pony.

Next time, the novelty will have long worn off and its just a question of whether one of the ponies has a particularly good matchup. They basically indicated that the reason for this matchup was because they were looking for an opponent for Raven and thought Twilight was a better match than Scarlet Witch or Pheonix (although after they gave the low-down on Raven’s ability I can see her handling herself, if ultimately losing).

I'm stating how a fight between them would actually go.

I'm sure that DB will conveniently forget that Kenshiro can neither see nor harm Star Platinum or else somehow overlook those facts if they want him to win.

Just like how they totally missed the fact that Miguel O'Hara did, in fact, have the powers of Thor when he wielded Mjolnir, he just dind't gain the armor or Asgardian Physiology.

Seriously, that fight should have been so one-sided in Spidey-99's favor that it's not even funny.

They stated Miguel didn’t use the powers of Thor in comics but used Mjolnir more than as a symbol in the commentary and the DB Cast. I suppose Miguel could totally have used all the Thor-powers but I’m going to stick with the DB people on this one till I see otherwise.

Also note DB usually avoids using one-offs and won’t extrapolate powers that aren’t actually shown in the comics if they are merely mentioned or implied.

I am a bit skeptical of these claims that the next match should be so one-sided as to be a total mismatch. DB wants to put fighters into attractive looking matches.

However, they have done mismatches in the past (someone mentioned Quicksilver vs theFlash and I think Thor vs Raiden was there) when they want to. I don’t think they’d miss something as obvious as clear-cut canon that a character cannot be harmed by any of the attacks of their opponent.

The latest Batman fight basically had Batman unable to do anything. Natsu vs. Ace was that way too...there’s actually a fair number of matchups where one opponent literally couldn’t harm the other. In all these cases, the question is how they can make the fight look good. So I imagine they have something to make the fight look even.

[Maryring]

Since we're talking about stands, let me link this One Minute Melee fight between Sakuya and Dio which handled Stands pretty well, showing that the Stand is visible for us viewers, but not for Sakuya.

As for the Raven vs Twilight fight... eeeh. It wasn't a very interesting fight. Lots of random explosions, confusing visuals, concussive blasts. At least they had the sense not to turn the ending into a gorn fest.

[McNum]

Since we're talking about stands, let me link this One Minute Melee fight between Sakuya and Dio which handled Stands pretty well, showing that the Stand is visible for us viewers, but not for Sakuya.

As for the Raven vs Twilight fight... eeeh. It wasn't a very interesting fight. Lots of random explosions, confusing visuals, concussive blasts. At least they had the sense not to turn the ending into a gorn fest.

I was thinking about that video, too. (As an aside, of course a One Minute Melee between two time stoppers would go over time.) Just because you can't see a Stand doesn't mean it doesn't exist for you.

I'm not an expert on either of the fighters but I wonder if this won't come down to one little detail. Can Kenshiro blindfight? It'll be fairly obvious to him that something is there, even if he has no idea what it is. If he can tank a few hits from it, he might be able to hit back despite not being able to see it. And then things get weird.

[Devonix]

When it comes to only a stand being able to harm a stand. That's really a No Limits Fallacy. Stands can be affected by things other than stands or else they wouldn't be able to pick up things. Or be hit by things. Dio's Road Roller wouldn't be able to do anything if a physical things couldn't be used as weapons against stands.

It's more that nothing in JoJo is strong enough to hang in a battle against a stand.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not an expert on either of the fighters but I wonder if this won't come down to one little detail. Can Kenshiro blindfight? It'll be fairly obvious to him that something is there, even if he has no idea what it is. If he can tank a few hits from it, he might be able to hit back despite not being able to see it. And then things get weird.

I don't see why he wouldn't, blind-fighting is a pretty standard martial arts trick for demonstrating that your Really Good At What You Do, but if there is no evidence that he can (even if it doesn't make sense given all the other things he can supposedly pull off) then tough luck for him.

[Prime32]

[Citation Needed]

The only Stand/Hamon intersect in the whole series is when Joseph wraps Hermit Purple in it to fight Dio, and it never touches The World. It burns Dio's hand a little bit, and then he handily disposes of Joseph with no effort.

Stands are introduced with the kanji "Ghost Ripple".

[Red Fel]

Jotaro vs. Kenshiro feels like rocket tag to me.

If Kenshiro can hit his opponent - even just a brush - he can trigger debilitating or lethal pressure points. So, in all probability, if Kenshiro hits Jotaro, game over for Jotaro.

But, Jotaro has Star Platinum. (Let's not even go into Ripple. I think Jotaro didn't actually learn any.) And only a Stand user can see Stands, right? So Kenshiro can't see Star Platinum. It's worth noting that one magazine article suggested that Kenshiro could hear a whisper from 2 km away, could see the aura of a living thing in total darkness, and could intercept an arrow when shot, so blind-fighting seems probable. Maybe he can blind-fight Star Platinum, but the point is that he won't actually be attacking Jotaro. Star Platinum allows Jotaro to play keep-away, which is key, because of the pressure points.

Which all brings it down to one very simple question: Does a Stand have pressure points? If so, Jotaro loses. We've seen that any damage sustained by a Stand is suffered by the User - pressure points would theoretically work the same way.

So it all comes back to rocket tag. If Star Platinum has pressure points, it can be stopped - and so can Jotaro. If it doesn't, it's just a question of whether Kenshiro can get around Star Platinum to reach Jotaro, or whether Star Platinum will pulp Kenshiro before that happens.

There's also a question of whether Muso Tensei is Kenshiro's ultimate trump card. It renders the user "impervious to attacks," which is sort of like invulnerability. The question is whether it's actually invulnerability - in which case Kenshiro just wins - or "I won't stop unless I'm destroyed" invulnerability, in which case Star Platinum still has a chance.

In terms of theme songs, though, Kenshiro wins hands-down. Ai wo Torimodose will cause newborn children to experience puberty, it is that powerful.

[Maryring]

The fight has already been done by OMM actually, and in that match, Jotaro had Star Platinum manifest himself over where those pressure points were. So while Kenshiro thought he hit Jotaro's chest, he actually hit Star Platinum's hands. It's pretty blink and you miss it, but it did show an interesting and possible defense against the pressure points.

It happens at around 1:50.

[Rater202]

Stands are introduced with the kanji "Ghost Ripple".

Yeah, that's just a name.

Ripple is Ki and life-energy.

Stands are Psychic and fighting spirit.

They're not the same thing, and even if they ran on the same thing that doesn't mean they operate on the same rules any more than my computer is a microwave