Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Kitten Champion]

Does "pressure point" mean something different than I think it does? They're just sensitive points on the body where nerves can be reached easily aren't they? Why would a semi-spectral being formed from the users fighting spirit possess them?

I want to see a Persona v. Stand-User battle, that would be fun. Not sure which one for either type to make it interesting.

[Keltest]

Does "pressure point" mean something different than I think it does? They're just sensitive points on the body where nerves can be reached easily aren't they? Why would a semi-spectral being formed from the users fighting spirit possess them?

I want to see a Persona v. Stand-User battle, that would be fun. Not sure which one for either type to make it interesting.

I think the idea is that triggering a "pressure point" on the spirit will activate the real pressure point on the actual person. I dunno, its magic, roll with it.

[Lord Raziere]

Does "pressure point" mean something different than I think it does? They're just sensitive points on the body where nerves can be reached easily aren't they? Why would a semi-spectral being formed from the users fighting spirit possess them?

Well think about it: to make a body, you need to know the mechanics of a body works. its like making a machine: sure you can technically make a car out of solid clay, but it wouldn't really function AS a car wouldn't it? it'd just be a solid lump of clay. in the shape of a car

so if you make something capable of movement like a human body, it has to have the same mechanics of a how a human body works, even if its made of a different material right? if you somehow made sure all the clay had the right and shapes and internal mechanics without somehow breaking down, it'd work as a car. and have all the weaknesses.....of a car.

therefore we could assume that the Stand is a solid lump of spirit-matter that somehow against all logic works like a body without possessing any of the internal mechanics and therefore downsides of a body......or we can assume that to be consistent, the spectral matter has to emulate the internal mechanics of the body and therefore has to have spectral pressure points to touch.

you can't emulate something without getting its internal mechanics right. otherwise your just imitating the outward appearance.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah, that's just a name.

Ripple is Ki and life-energy.

Stands are Psychic and fighting spirit.

They're not the same thing, and even if they ran on the same thing that doesn't mean they operate on the same rules any more than my computer is a microwave

And if we're being totally honest, that whole thing was basically a way to preemptively retcon Stands into being an offshoot of Ripple, despite doing many things far beyond the purview of Ripple. It doesn't mean much.

Well think about it: to make a body, you need to know the mechanics of a body works. its like making a machine: sure you can technically make a car out of solid clay, but it wouldn't really function AS a car wouldn't it? it'd just be a solid lump of clay. in the shape of a car

so if you make something capable of movement like a human body, it has to have the same mechanics of a how a human body works, even if its made of a different material right? if you somehow made sure all the clay had the right and shapes and internal mechanics without somehow breaking down, it'd work as a car. and have all the weaknesses.....of a car.

therefore we could assume that the Stand is a solid lump of spirit-matter that somehow against all logic works like a body without possessing any of the internal mechanics and therefore downsides of a body......or we can assume that to be consistent, the spectral matter has to emulate the internal mechanics of the body and therefore has to have spectral pressure points to touch.

you can't emulate something without getting its internal mechanics right. otherwise your just imitating the outward appearance.

Plus, since Stand damage reflects precisely onto the user, we know there's some sort of mapping going on. (Granted, there's the Stands like Wheel of Fortune...)

[Kitten Champion]

Okay, I can accept that.

Though it just seems like the Gaara v. Toph fight, arbitrarily choose which magic system you want to trump the other. So long as the exposition sounds half-sensible it'll work for fanfiction purposes.

[Forum Explorer]

So little discussion on the actual death battle.



I’m pretty your “alternative” is exactly how the Death Battle resolved itself

Spoiler: Raven vs. Twilight

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The two used their instant win spells on each other Twilight turned Raven into a twig as Raven captured Twilight in her soul-self realm and drained her of emotion. Only Raven recovered due to her soul-self while Twilight could not.

I myself would not have seen that as there was no indication Raven could recover from spells like that in the analysis, while Twilight could handle being emotionally drained (they say not without external intervention) and can certainly escape from dimensional traps (other sorts of traps might be more difficult).

Still, there are too many ways Raven can win easily if she has the cosmic level powers they gave her, and even dead Raven isn’t apparently dead-dead. Raven’s gold dead-self is her strongest form.

I don’t think it makes for the best Death Battle doing one pony after another. The first was for sheer novelty, Pinkie Pie vs. Deadpool was an excuse to break all the rules, and Twilight was the first straight Death Battle involving a My Little Pony.

Next time, the novelty will have long worn off and its just a question of whether one of the ponies has a particularly good matchup. They basically indicated that the reason for this matchup was because they were looking for an opponent for Raven and thought Twilight was a better match than Scarlet Witch or Pheonix (although after they gave the low-down on Raven’s ability I can see her handling herself, if ultimately losing).

Spoiler: Raven Vs Twilight

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I wasn't suggesting an alternative, more of disagreeing with their interpretation of it. They said that since they had similar ways to defeat each other it comes down to strength and durability which seriously doesn't make any sense. That being said, I still think the fight would've gone exactly the same way because Twilight would need to hit both Raven and her Soul-self which gives the advantage solidly to Raven who only needs to hit Twilight.

Also they really messed up Twilight's numbers. I'm pretty sure getting punched through the mountain takes a lot more force then the initial punch into the mountain. Also the Raven's numbers now that I think about it. We know it can go super-sonic, but also that it usually doesn't.
Instead of transport speed, they should've used the most force seen in a fight.

As for the Raven vs Twilight fight... eeeh. It wasn't a very interesting fight. Lots of random explosions, confusing visuals, concussive blasts. At least they had the sense not to turn the ending into a gorn fest.

That's true, the fight wasn't that great visually. Not that bad though.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's true, the fight wasn't that great visually. Not that bad though.

It was very short, which felt off to me. They kept saying that these two could go on for a while with play after magical counterplay, but then they don't show any of that and skip to the end?

Eh.

[Maryring]

Does "pressure point" mean something different than I think it does? They're just sensitive points on the body where nerves can be reached easily aren't they? Why would a semi-spectral being formed from the users fighting spirit possess them?

I want to see a Persona v. Stand-User battle, that would be fun. Not sure which one for either type to make it interesting.

It's not that the Stands themselves have pressure points. It's that force upon a Stand maps about 1 to 1 on the Stand's owner. So hitting a Stand's "pressure point" has that same amount of force pushed on the owner's pressure point, making it as if they were essentially hit themselves.

[Rynjin]

It's not that the Stands themselves have pressure points. It's that force upon a Stand maps about 1 to 1 on the Stand's owner. So hitting a Stand's "pressure point" has that same amount of force pushed on the owner's pressure point, making it as if they were essentially hit themselves.

Though again, this is irrelevant, as a Stand can't be harmed save by another Stand.

[Devonix]

Though again, this is irrelevant, as a Stand can't be harmed save by another Stand.

What has been shown is that only stand users can see stands and thus only stand users fight stands.

A stand is still fully suceptible to outside forces from things. Otherwise stands couldn't interact with the world

[Forum Explorer]

Though again, this is irrelevant, as a Stand can't be harmed save by another Stand.

Are you sure about that? I mean, as far as I know, pretty much everyone in the story is a Stand user, and Stands are invisible to begin with. So do you ever see anything along the lines of a Stand casually striding out of a massive explosion and taking no damage?

[Rater202]

What has been shown is that only stand users can see stands and thus only stand users fight stands.

A stand is still fully susceptible to outside forces from things. Otherwise, stands couldn't interact with the world

1: You're arguing that magic has to perfectly follow the rules of real-world physics and real-world logic. This is foolish at the best of times, but this is Jojo where a man who can control the weather was able to use that power to turn people into snails.

2: It is explicitly stated that only harm to the Stand User or an attack from an enemy stand can harm a Stand and thus that, in practice, only a Stand User can defeat a Stand User(as Stands can easil intercept attacks from a non-stand user.)

[Keltest]

1: You're arguing that magic has to perfectly follow the rules of real-world physics and real-world logic. This is foolish at the best of times, but this is Jojo where a man who can control the weather was able to use that power to turn people into snails.

2: It is explicitly stated that only harm to the Stand User or an attack from an enemy stand can harm a Stand and thus that, in practice, only a Stand User can defeat a Stand User(as Stands can easil intercept attacks from a non-stand user.)

But what if you don't harm them? If you shove on one normally, will it move, or will it be like pushing off a cliff? Could you immobilize one in a bear trap if it triggered one? And if you hit one in the pressure points, will that gesture, harmless to the Stand, then go on to affect the User and incapacitate them or whatever your attack would have done?

[Rater202]

But what if you don't harm them? If you shove on one normally, will it move, or will it be like pushing off a cliff? Could you immobilize one in a bear trap if it triggered one? And if you hit one in the pressure points, will that gesture, harmless to the Stand, then go on to affect the User and incapacitate them or whatever your attack would have done?

The beartrap will either pass through it harmlessly, break, or otherwise fail to have any effect on the stand.

If you aren't a stand you probably can't push it back because Stands can fly and alternate between being intangible and being superhumanly strong and durable.

Hitting the Stand's pressure points won't do crap because it's not the pressure that gets transferred, it's the damage so if you don't damage the stand you didn't do jack to the stand user no matter how special the punch is.

[Rynjin]

What has been shown is that only stand users can see stands and thus only stand users fight stands.

A stand is still fully suceptible to outside forces from things. Otherwise stands couldn't interact with the world

You're arguing scientific logic in regards to what are, essentially, psychic ghosts.

This is a mistake. Ghosts (poltergeists, particularly) have always been known for their frustrating ability to affect the physical world while being immune to corporeal attempts to harm or dislodge them.

"Only magic can defeat magic" and all that jazz.

[Knaight]

2: It is explicitly stated that only harm to the Stand User or an attack from an enemy stand can harm a Stand and thus that, in practice, only a Stand User can defeat a Stand User(as Stands can easil intercept attacks from a non-stand user.)

While this is true, there are some implicit caveats there - of the things characters are actually aware of, only a Stand can hurt a Stand. There's no information for a completely out of context problem involving another system of magic they aren't even aware of.

[Devonix]

Lets put it this way. If a Stand picks up a telephone pole and uses it as a baseball bat against another stand. Would that Stand be hurt. If so, then you don't need a stand to harm a stand. and we've seen Stands use weapons against Other stands.

[Rynjin]

Lets put it this way. If a Stand picks up a telephone pole and uses it as a baseball bat against another stand. Would that Stand be hurt. If so, then you don't need a stand to harm a stand. and we've seen Stands use weapons against Other stands.

Force is generated by said Stand; a Stand harmed another Stand.

If, theoretically, a human managed to pick up that pole instead, it would do nothing.

[Rater202]

While this is true, there are some implicit caveats there - of the things characters are actually aware of, only a Stand can hurt a Stand. There's no information for a completely out of context problem involving another system of magic they aren't even aware of.

Punching people's pressure points isn't magic. It's punching.

@Devonix: In the case of the Wepaon coming with the Stand: The Weapon is part of the Stand. In the case of a telephone pole or another weapon being picked up: Either it does nothing... Or it works, but only becuase a Stand is doing it.

(Refrsh my memory: When have we ever seen a Stand using a weapon that wasn't itself part of the Stand?)

[Rynjin]

Punching people's pressure points isn't magic. It's punching.

@Devonix: In the case of the Wepaon coming with the Stand: The Weapon is part of the Stand. In the case of a telephone pole or another weapon being picked up: Either it does nothing... Or it works, but only becuase a Stand is doing it.

(Refrsh my memory: When have we ever seen a Stand using a weapon that wasn't itself part of the Stand?)

Any of the weird stuff Crazy Diamond does with repaired objects probably counts.

[Devonix]

Punching people's pressure points isn't magic. It's punching.

@Devonix: In the case of the Wepaon coming with the Stand: The Weapon is part of the Stand. In the case of a telephone pole or another weapon being picked up: Either it does nothing... Or it works, but only becuase a Stand is doing it.

(Refrsh my memory: When have we ever seen a Stand using a weapon that wasn't itself part of the Stand?)

Polnareff vs Devo.

The entire fight has both Silver Chariot and The Devil using other objects against each other in the fight. Silver Chariot is stabbed by a glass wine bottle, and cut by razor blades picked up in the hotel room. The Devil is tied up with Bed sheets. ect.

This fight shows that Non psychic constructs can be used to harm Stands. You just need to be strong enough, to hurt them, fast enough to catch them, and need to be able to see them so that you can actually fight.

It's not like these weapons become magic just because a stand is touching them. They're just regular objects that are shown to be able to hurt stands.

[Rater202]

It's not like these weapons become magic just because a stand is touching them. They're just regular objects that are shown to be able to hurt stands.

No, that's probably exactly what's happening.

Becuase the weapon is just a tool. It's still the Stand making the attack, and thus it is the Stand harming the other Stand.

If you want proof that objects that are not Stands can harm Stands, then you need a weapon that is not being wielded by a Stand.

Seriously: This is a series where a man whose Stand Power is "control the weather" was able to turn people into snails explicitly throguh his abillity to controll the weather. You're trying to apply logic that doesn't exist.

[Devonix]

No, that's probably exactly what's happening.

Becuase the weapon is just a tool. It's still the Stand making the attack, and thus it is the Stand harming the other Stand.

If you want proof that objects that are not Stands can harm Stands, then you need a weapon that is not being wielded by a Stand.

Seriously: This is a series where a man whose Stand Power is "control the weather" was able to turn people into snails explicitly throguh his abillity to controll the weather. You're trying to apply logic that doesn't exist.

The way you are treating this No battle could ever take place. You're saying that just because Stand users only fight stand user. That means Nothing without a stand can harm a stand. Yet there are clear instances of nonstands harming stands.

Stands only fight stands because only they can see t hem to fight in the first place. Unless we have a clear instance of a non stand user that being unable to harm a stand, we have to go by what we've seen. And what we've seen is that Stands can be affected by direct force.

[Rater202]

The way you are treating this No battle could ever take place. You're saying that just because Stand users only fight stand user. That means Nothing without a stand can harm a stand. Yet there are clear instances of nonstands harming stands.

Stands only fight stands because only they can see t hem to fight in the first place. Unless we have a clear instance of a non stand user that being unable to harm a stand, we have to go by what we've seen. And what we've seen is that Stands can be affected by direct force.

No, there are not clear insistence of non-stands harming stands.

There are instances of Stands using non-0stands to harm other stands.

And we have seen Stands being harmed by Stands and weapons being wielded by Stands.

Furthermore: I am not insisting that only Stands can harm Stands because they only fight Stands. I'm insisting that only Stands can harm Stands becuase its an explicit inherant property of Stands that they can only be harmed by other Stands.

And yes: The fact that no battle would ever take place is kind of my point. This would be far from the first time that Death Battle has set up a matchup that by all means should be blatantly onesided in one party's favor as being even.

[Rynjin]

The way you are treating this No battle could ever take place. You're saying that just because Stand users only fight stand user. That means Nothing without a stand can harm a stand. Yet there are clear instances of nonstands harming stands.

Stands only fight stands because only they can see t hem to fight in the first place. Unless we have a clear instance of a non stand user that being unable to harm a stand, we have to go by what we've seen. And what we've seen is that Stands can be affected by direct force.

Except there aren't, and you've been completely unable to provide any evidence of it.

Your only "evidence" (Devo/Ebony Devil) is completely contradicted if you know how his Stand works: Ebony Devil is NOT a puppet Stand, it is a Stand with the ability to possess inanimate objects and imbue them with greater destructive power (the more Devo is hurt, the higher Ebony Devil's attack power). That is why seemingly mundane objects could hurt Silver Chariot (they were enhanced by a Stand ability).

[Devonix]

Except there aren't, and you've been completely unable to provide any evidence of it.

Your only "evidence" (Devo/Ebony Devil) is completely contradicted if you know how his Stand works: Ebony Devil is NOT a puppet Stand, it is a Stand with the ability to possess inanimate objects and imbue them with greater destructive power (the more Devo is hurt, the higher Ebony Devil's attack power). That is why seemingly mundane objects could hurt Silver Chariot (they were enhanced by a Stand ability).

So Dio is posessing the Steamroller he uses when he's fighting Jotaro?

[Rynjin]

So Dio is posessing the Steamroller he uses when he's fighting Jotaro?

Think about what actually goes on in that scenario: The Steamroller is used to pin Jotaro down, forcing Star Platinum to hold it up lest Jotaro be crushed (which WOULD harm Star Platinum; injuries inflicted on the user harm the Stand, regardless of source).

Dio then has The World repeatedly punch the Steamroller, inflicting damage via The World's punches to Star Platinum. Even then, Star Platinum escapes entirely unscathed, so the likely goal was to overpower Star Platinum and have the steamroller crush Jotaro directly.

Edit: It's also worth mentioning that Araki tends to make mistakes and forget stuff anyway. He wholly forgets that Jotaro can ****ING FLY and use Star Finger in part 4, for example.

There may well be a minor panel where a Stand is harmed by something non-Stand related (though I certainly don't recall any), but it's likely a mistake of some kind.

[Dragonus45]

It is perfectly reasonable to interpret the Stand invulnerability would not apply to actual magical or spiritual attacks from other settings. It's still a moot point since pressure point head exploding kung fu isn't particularly magical. Well, the stuff it does is insane in how many things it could get away with going but the explenation was biological and science type stuff.


Really though all of this is a moot point because a 5 second time stop just wins the fight.

[HolyDraconus]

So let me get this straight. A stand can only be harmed by a stand...but a muso tensai user can only be harmed by another user... isn't that a stalemate? Except.... a stand can be considered life force, or psychic, or even INTENT, and it's been proven that a muso tensai user can sense all of that? Doesn't Kenshiro straight up has Jotaro (not the stand but the user) beat stat wise?

[Delicious Taffy]

Just to make sure I'm following you all correctly: A Stand is the Persona guys that JoJo people conjure during a fight. To see the Stands, you have to at least have the potential to use one for yourself. Stands can punch people and each other, but people can't punch Stands on their own. If a Stand picks something up, that object is sort of "Stand-enchanted" in a way, rendering it capable of harming an enemy Stand. Otherwise, it's assumed in-story that people can't just whack a Stand with a bat until it stops.

Is this all correct? If so, does this Kenshiro guy have any similar-enough abilities?