Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Forum Explorer]

Just out of Curiosity, would anyone know a good DB-Opponent for Taylor Hebert/Skitter/Weaver?

For Non-Fans, can control Insects(bees, wasps, hornets, black widows), can map out her environment in her head via touch-sense of all the insects she controls and is prepared for most surprise-attacks because of that, has the multitasking-abilities to do several different Things with all the insects, she controls, has an utility belt with pepper-spray, baton, knife and pistol and has a costume that protects her from knifes.

Has also pretended to have Logia-Powers like turning into an insect-swarm with some Tricks.

Squirrel Girl. Because Taylor has the meme of people going 'Ha I can take her,' and then losing horribly. This includes Behemoth, an instant killing kajiu that typically leaves cities as radioactive wastelands. Admittedly, that's in part because her Passenger gives her an intuitive understanding of how other Capes abilities interact with each other and fight.

But Squirrel Girl has the meme (or ability, I'm not sure) of being able to inexplicably defeat anyone and never losing.

Also I guess they both control animals.



Besides that, umm Beast Boy? A full on shapeshifter is one of the few things Taylor hasn't fought.

[Devonix]

Kenshiro trades blows with people who can take nukes straight to the face and overpowers them. I think people are really underselling Ken's durability.

[Traab]

Just out of Curiosity, would anyone know a good DB-Opponent for Taylor Hebert/Skitter/Weaver?

For Non-Fans, can control Insects(bees, wasps, hornets, black widows), can map out her environment in her head via touch-sense of all the insects she controls and is prepared for most surprise-attacks because of that, has the multitasking-abilities to do several different Things with all the insects, she controls, has an utility belt with pepper-spray, baton, knife and pistol and has a costume that protects her from knifes.

Has also pretended to have Logia-Powers like turning into an insect-swarm with some Tricks.

Kerrigan, the Queen of the Swarm. Ok, that would be a total stomp but still amusing. Its like the next tier in her abilities and powers. Kinda like ranking brick types where you have strong, durable heroes fight each other, only it goes from luke cage to the thing.

[Rater202]

Just out of Curiosity, would anyone know a good DB-Opponent for Taylor Hebert/Skitter/Weaver?

For Non-Fans, can control Insects(bees, wasps, hornets, black widows), can map out her environment in her head via touch-sense of all the insects she controls and is prepared for most surprise-attacks because of that, has the multitasking-abilities to do several different Things with all the insects, she controls, has an utility belt with pepper-spray, baton, knife and pistol and has a costume that protects her from knifes.

Has also pretended to have Logia-Powers like turning into an insect-swarm with some Tricks.

The Queen, excluding he rSpider-Island power ups.

A Grab Bag Mutant with the Insect Gene, she possesses... Basically the same powers as Taylor, but also mutagenic enzyme saliva, a sonic scream, and a one ton overhead lift.

The trade off, of course, is that she's not as smart or as good at improvising as Taylor.

Let's put Taylor's memeness to the test and have her beat someone that'sa stronger version of herself.

No, that's not how time-stopping works.

your not moving faster, nor is the world moving slower, everything else is just moving the same rate it always does over a longer period of time from your perspective. getting hit by a truck in slow motion time would be just as much energy as getting hit with in normal time, its just easier to react to it.

No. The World and star Platinum: The World are explctly freezing time for the entire universe except for themselves andtheir users(THE WORLD, the version from part 7 with an alternate DIO, also failed to freeze Tusk Act 4, but Tusk has infinite power.)

The fact that The World affects the whole universe is why It and Star Platinum are considered to be some of, if not the, most powerful Stands in the Universe.

Squirrel Girl. Because Taylor has the meme of people going 'Ha I can take her,' and then losing horribly. This includes Behemoth, an instant killing kajiu that typically leaves cities as radioactive wastelands. Admittedly, that's in part because her Passenger gives her an intuitive understanding of how other Capes abilities interact with each other and fight.

But Squirrel Girl has the meme (or ability, I'm not sure) of being able to inexplicably defeat anyone and never losing.

Squirrel Girl has canonically never lost a fight, even against cosmic tier beings, and while in practice she's only street level PL, she canonically has the most raw power of any of Marvel's heroes.(Similar to how Taylor's power is, in practice, only strong becuaseshe's good with it even though she has one ofthe most powerful passengers)

However, Squirrel Girl usually wins either through shear numbers, by being very creative(abusing Time travel to make a bajillion of herself..) Or from attempts at diplomacy or compromise(for example: convining Hippo the Hippo to stop commiting crimes by helping him find legitimate, gainful employment with a construction company or helping Brain Drain make a face/heal turn by repairing and upgrading his robot body to restore his free will.)

Basically, Squirrel Girl is unbeatable because all the stuff that never works when Taylor tries it always works for her.

So Taylor vsSquirrel Girl would be like the Deadpool vs Pinkie Pie fight: It ends in a draw once they realize they have common ground and go off to do something else.

Taylor: "Oh my god... Talking things out actually worked for once!"

[Kitten Champion]

Marvel's Wasp is probably workable.

Though by the sounds of it Wasp would win, it wouldn't be a complete stomp.

[Prime32]

Just out of Curiosity, would anyone know a good DB-Opponent for Taylor Hebert/Skitter/Weaver?

For Non-Fans, can control Insects(bees, wasps, hornets, black widows), can map out her environment in her head via touch-sense of all the insects she controls and is prepared for most surprise-attacks because of that, has the multitasking-abilities to do several different Things with all the insects, she controls, has an utility belt with pepper-spray, baton, knife and pistol and has a costume that protects her from knifes.

Has also pretended to have Logia-Powers like turning into an insect-swarm with some Tricks.

Kakine "Dark Matter" Teitoku from A Certain Magical Index? Way more powerful than Skitter, but has a habit of creating near-mindless insects that are part of himself (meaning in the right conditions, they can influence him as much as he influences them).

[Forum Explorer]

Marvel's Wasp is probably workable.

Though by the sounds of it Wasp would win, it wouldn't be a complete stomp.

From reading the Wiki, Wasp would lose pretty badly from what I can tell. Skitter's senses are linked to her swarm, so she'd have absolutely no problem finding Wasp. And she's used massive amount of spiders to tangle up normal humans in webbing before. She'd have no problem doing the same to Wasp. Giant size is just more surface area to attack. And unless Wasp's stings completely vaporize her opponent, they wouldn't really effect Skitter. She lost half her body at one point and was still fighting as hard as she could.

Her control isn't absolute, but it's pretty rare for anything to be able to break it/disrupt it. The only things I can think of are a specially invented Tinker device to do exactly that, evil clone copies of herself, and likely the most powerful human Cape in Glastig Uaine.

[HolyDraconus]

Didn't word of God state that Dante loses to bayonetta?

[Rater202]

From reading the Wiki, Wasp would lose pretty badly from what I can tell. Skitter's senses are linked to her swarm, so she'd have absolutely no problem finding Wasp. And she's used massive amount of spiders to tangle up normal humans in webbing before. She'd have no problem doing the same to Wasp. Giant size is just more surface area to attack. And unless Wasp's stings completely vaporize her opponent, they wouldn't really effect Skitter. She lost half her body at one point and was still fighting as hard as she could.

Her control isn't absolute, but it's pretty rare for anything to be able to break it/disrupt it. The only things I can think of are a specially invented Tinker device to do exactly that, evil clone copies of herself, and likely the most powerful human Cape in Glastig Uaine.

Adding Context

There is a category of powers in Worm called "Tinker," which basically means you're a super-scientist: Clark tech level knowledges of the sciences couples with a physics breaking abillity that compensates for improper materials or gaps in knowledge. However, their are limits on it--maybe they can only make a certain device or use a certain component once, maybe there's a theme they're working on, or they've got one branch of sicence they've specialized in.

Like all powers, the more you use it, the stronger and more versitile it gets.


There's another caegory, Trump(short for "My Power Trumps Yours") thatrefers to meta-powers. Power theft, power copying, turning powers off, etc.

My favorite character from Worm, Bonesaw, has a power that's rated as Tinker and Trump. She started out with a specialty in some aspect of biology(most likely surgery) and a secondary specialty in powers... But by the time the main story runs around she's one of the most versitile Tinkers on the planet with a specialty of "anything remotly related to biology and certain aspects of chemisty" and is basically the expert on powers.

She's also the murderous, brainwashed pet of a charismatic psychopath, so that's not good.

Bonesaw made a prion that temporarily turns off people's powers.

it didn't turn off Taylor's powers, and judging from Bonesaw's reaction, this was incredibly remakrable.

[Lemmy]

Something interesting I hadn't thought of before now...one of Star Platinum's biggest traits is its enhanced eyesight and precision (enough to pick out minor details in an incredibly dark and blurry photograph, and then PRECISELY draw them with a pencil better than a photograph).

What happens if Star Platinum uses Hokuto Shinken against Kenshiro after seeing his attempts to attack Jotaro?

Being able to see/draw something isn't the same as being able to do it yourself... There are plenty of feats of balance and strength that are performed slowly but can't be replicated without years of training... And who knows how much more complicated things get when we add ki/psychic powers into the mix!

(And if we're allowing the good ol' "he can copy the opponent's powers/techniques", then I have to say that's another point in Kenshiro's favor, as he does that quite a bit.)

[Rater202]

(And if we're allowing the good ol' "he can copy the opponent's powers/techniques", then I have to say that's another point in Kenshiro's favor, as he does that quite a bit.)

Except Jotaro doesn't have techniques. He ha inherent Supernatural powers.

You either have a Stand or you Don't and excepting bizarre circumstances every Stand is unique.

So no, unless Kenshirou can perfectly replicate the inherent supernatural abillities of other beings, he can't copy any of Jotaro's stuff.

[Lemmy]

Didn't word of God state that Dante loses to bayonetta?

That Word of God comes from the guy that works at Bayonetta but no longer works on Devil May Cry, so it's a little biased... Just like when the creator of Brolly said Brolly could beat anyone from DBS.

Honestly... I don't put much stock in "Word of God". Generally speaking, if isn't shown/mentioned in the series itself, 9 out 10 times, it probably shouldn't count. Otherwise any author can claim whatever they want no matter how nonsensical it is even in the context of their own creation. Imagine if Stan Lee said "No, Spider-man can definitely beat Superman, Hulk, Goku and Saitama. No sweat. I know because I created Spider-man. And the Hulk."

[Lemmy]

Except Jotaro doesn't have techniques. He ha inherent Supernatural powers.

You either have a Stand or you Don't and excepting bizarre circumstances every Stand is unique.

So no, unless Kenshirou can perfectly replicate the inherent supernatural abillities of other beings, he can't copy any of Jotaro's stuff.

I don't disagree... But it isn't quite as clear cut as you're making it sound... The stand itself can't be copied, but what about the Stand's moves? Not only Kenshiro is able to continuously improve his own fighting style and techniques, he's able to use the techniques of his fallen rivals... Such as Raoh's "Go no Ken", which "becomes stronger the stronger the enemy is" or something...

Man, HnK was weird...

[Rynjin]

That Word of God comes from the guy that works at Bayonetta but no longer works on Devil May Cry, so it's a little biased... Just like when the creator of Brolly said Brolly could beat anyone from DBS.

Honestly... I don't put much stock in "Word of God". Generally speaking, if isn't shown/mentioned in the series itself, 9 out 10 times, it probably shouldn't count. Otherwise any author can claim whatever they want no matter how nonsensical it is even in the context of their own creation. Imagine if Stan Lee said "No, Spider-man can definitely beat Superman, Hulk, Goku and Saitama. No sweat. I know because I created Spider-man. And the Hulk."

I mean, in this case it's both Word of God and never disproven in series. And unlike Stan lee, nobody else has ever written a canon JoJo story, save (questionably) Eyes Over Heaven (which, if canon, just means Kenshiro loses) and the "Kars on Mars" clown fiesta story.

I don't disagree... But it isn't quite as clear cut as you're making it sound... The stand itself can't be copied, but what about the Stand's moves? Not only Kenshiro is able to continuously improve his own fighting style and techniques, he's able to use the techniques of his fallen rivals... Such as Raoh's "Go no Ken", which "becomes stronger the stronger the enemy is" or something...

Man, HnK was weird...

Stand abilities aren't like martial arts. They're not techniques, they're unique powers only they can possess.

The only gray area is maybe Star Finger, if Ken can stretch his fingers?

[Rater202]

I don't disagree... But it isn't quite as clear cut as you're making it sound... The stand itself can't be copied, but what about the Stand's moves? Not only Kenshiro is able to continuously improve his own fighting style and techniques, he's able to use the techniques of his fallen rivals... Such as Raoh's "Go no Ken", which "becomes stronger the stronger the enemy is" or something...

Man, HnK was weird...

The Stand doesn't have techniques beyond "punch a lot while being really really fast."

Being invulnerable, moving at FTL, and time stoping aren't techniques: They're inherent properties of Star Platinum: The World.

[Dragonus45]

No, thats not how timestopping works.

your not moving faster, nor is the world moving slower, everything else is just moving the same rate it always does over a longer period of time from your perspective. getting hit by a truck in slow motion time would be just as much energy as getting hit with in normal time, its just easier to react to it.

You misunderstand, the ability to move at ftl speeds is separate from the time stop ability.

[Lemmy]

I mean, in this case it's both Word of God and never disproven in series. And unlike Stan lee, nobody else has ever written a canon JoJo story, save (questionably) Eyes Over Heaven (which, if canon, just means Kenshiro loses) and the "Kars on Mars" clown fiesta story.

"Never disproven in the series" doesn't amount to much, since most stories tend to focus on stuff that happens, rather than stuff that doesn't.

Stand abilities aren't like martial arts. They're not techniques, they're unique powers only they can possess.

The only gray area is maybe Star Finger, if Ken can stretch his fingers?

I know... The problem is that stands are presented as psychic/fighting spirit manifestation... So how do their powers interact with someone who can literally fight with just his soul? Muso Tensei basically turns Kenshiro into Bruce Lee Buddha.

BTW, I remember someone in the show saying that SP can move faster than light... But is he ever shown to do it? His punches were fast, but never really appeared to reach FTL speeds... I see his most extreme feats speed as foreshadowing of his ability to use The World.

[Rynjin]

"Never disproven in the series" doesn't amount to much, since most stories tend to focus on stuff that happens, rather than stuff that doesn't.

Stated, and never contradicted is important to note, particularly when it's core to the setting.

BTW, I remember someone in the show saying that SP can move faster than light... But is he ever shown to do it? His punches were fast, but never really appeared to reach FTL speeds... I see his most extreme feats speed as foreshadowing of his ability to use The World.

Stated in part 6 at some point, as someone said, so canon in series.

Part 6 is nuts.

[Lemmy]

Stated, and never contradicted is important to note, particularly when it's core to the setting.

I think you're missing the point here... Even if we count WoG, it holds no sway over other series. Like I said, what happens when you make a crossover battle between an immovable object from franchise A and an irresistible force from franchise B? Which author do you hear? We can't know if "Stands can only be damaged by stands" when none of the bizarre and obviously super-human/supernatural stuff from HnK exists in JJBA.

In the same way, Kenshiro becomes literally impervious to harm when using the perfected Muso Tensei... So... What? Neither of them can ever hit each other?

Stated in part 6 at some point, as someone said, so canon in series.

Part 6 is nuts.

How trustworthy is the information (i.e.: is SP actually shown to do that? Does the statement come from someone who would be able to measure/notice FTL movement?)?

I don't know... I stopped halfway at part 5 (I don't know if I ever reached the halfway point, actually. They were on a boat, I think... I was curious about where the plot was going, but I was bored. Which is too bad... I really liked part 4. Specially once Kira shows up).

[Dragonus45]

How trustworthy is the information (i.e.: is SP actually shown to do that? Does the statement come from someone who would be able to measure/notice FTL movement?)?

The FTL movement is a core part of the plot. Stone Ocean got very very strange.

:EDIT: I was misremembering which faster then light stand was important to the plot. It doesn't matter so much plot wise in Stone Ocean but it is directly listed in the Stands Stat sheet here So it is an absolute truth and not just a character talking big.

I think you're missing the point here... Even if we count WoG, it holds no sway over other series. Like I said, what happens when you make a crossover battle between an immovable object from franchise A and an irresistible force from franchise B? Which author do you hear? We can't know if "Stands can only be damaged by stands" when none of the bizarre and obviously super-human/supernatural stuff from HnK exists in JJBA.

You handle it by breaking down the internal logic of the series and trying to understand why statement A is true in Franchise A and then doing your best to apply the logic to both universes. Yea it doesn't always work out but in this case the situation is pretty clear. Hokuto no Ken has a similar problem that Goku vs Superman had where its pretty clear its not magic but manly fighting spirit and martial arts techniques that are in use. Now, your millage can vary on this stuff. I still think is a giant pile of horse manure when they said that the clearly more spiritually aligned and mystically grounded abilities of the Street Fighter franchise wouldn't qualify for letting Ryu harm Scorpion.

[Devonix]

The abilities in kenshiro are less about fighting spirit. And far more about enlightenment and control over the mind and body.

Its not. I can get strong because have the will to fight and can punch hard. And more about controlling your state of being and getting closer to spiritual Nirvana makes the rules of the world malleable.

[Lemmy]

The FTL movement is a core part of the plot. Stone Ocean got very very strange.

:EDIT: I was misremembering which faster then light stand was important to the plot. It doesn't matter so much plot wise in Stone Ocean but it is directly listed in the Stands Stat sheet here So it is an absolute truth and not just a character talking big.

That stat sheet actually makes it sound like the "FTL" bit is referring to its Time Stop ability... Which makes sense. If you can stop time, then you're infinitely faster than EVERYTHING, including light. I haven't seen Part 6 yet, although it sounds fun... Would it be too much of a problem I skipped Part 5?

TBH, I always thought the "Time Stop" ability was the most boring part of SP's abilities... It being super fast/strong, incredibly precise and able to see with amazing accuracy for kilometers was way more interesting. The "can stretch his fingers" ability was... Uh... Something, I guess.

You handle it by breaking down the internal logic of the series and trying to understand why statement A is true in Franchise A and then doing your best to apply the logic to both universes. Yea it doesn't always work out but in this case the situation is pretty clear. Hokuto no Ken has a similar problem that Goku vs Superman had where its pretty clear its not magic but manly fighting spirit and martial arts techniques that are in use. Now, your millage can vary on this stuff. I still think is a giant pile of horse manure when they said that the clearly more spiritually aligned and mystically grounded abilities of the Street Fighter franchise wouldn't qualify for letting Ryu harm Scorpion.

That's true about the Ryu/Scorpion fight. Ki is explicitly a spiritual energy, but what can we do... DB is very biased in favor of American media (Mini-Rant: Goku vs Superman was possibly the most childish cherry-picking I've seen in the show so far. Now, maybe Superman could defeat Goku, but DB made a very, very weak argument for it. It's one of the main reasons I stopped seeing the show except when there are particularly interesting fights, such as Kenshiro vs Jotaro).

[Rynjin]

I haven't seen Part 6 yet, although it sounds fun... Would it be too much of a problem I skipped Part 5?

Part 5 is literally the only part before part 6 that has nothing to do with a previous part and doesn't connect at all to a subsequent part besides cameos, as far as I know. Given it has by far the worst JoJo (or GioGio, as the case may be) as well, it's worth skipping as long as you don't mind missing out on the context around King Crimson memes.

[Lemmy]

Part 5 is literally the only part before part 6 that has nothing to do with a previous part and doesn't connect at all to a subsequent part besides cameos, as far as I know. Given it has by far the worst JoJo (or GioGio, as the case may be) as well, it's worth skipping as long as you don't mind missing out on the context around King Crimson memes.

Good to know. I might pick up Part 6, then... Because gods know I wouldn't be able to finish Part 5.

[Dragonus45]

That stat sheet actually makes it sound like the "FTL" bit is referring to its Time Stop ability... Which makes sense. If you can stop time, then you're infinitely faster than EVERYTHING, including light. I haven't seen Part 6 yet, although it sounds fun... Would it be too much of a problem I skipped Part 5?

Uh, no to both. The stat sheet clearly lists the time stop as a separate power. Also Part 5 isn't bad per se but it is somewhat out of place in the series and never really gets followed up on.

TBH, I always thought the "Time Stop" ability was the most boring part of SP's abilities... It being super fast/strong, incredibly precise and able to see with amazing accuracy for kilometers was way more interesting. The "can stretch his fingers" ability was... Uh... Something, I guess.

It only really was a thing so that he could fight Dio, it quickly gets explained away in stuff like Diamond is Unbreakable so he doesn't overshadow the protagonist and in Stone Ocean he apparently finally mastered everything but gets removed from the plot fairly quickly through other stand shenanigans.

That's true about the Ryu/Scorpion fight. Ki is explicitly a spiritual energy, but what can we do... DB is very biased in favor of American media (Mini-Rant: Goku vs Superman was possibly the most childish cherry-picking I've seen in the show so far. Now, maybe Superman could defeat Goku, but DB made a very, very weak argument for it. It's one of the main reasons I stopped seeing the show except when there are particularly interesting fights, such as Kenshiro vs Jotaro).

Well Ki doesn't always have to be spiritual in that sense, but in the Street Fighter franchise is absolutely is. And Superman won that fair and square.

[Lemmy]

Well Ki doesn't always have to be spiritual in that sense, but in the Street Fighter franchise is absolutely is.

Yes, it is.

And Superman won that fair and square.

No, he didn't.

[HolyDraconus]

So what is shown to be the upper limits of Hamon?

[Reddish Mage]

Ki is explicitly a spiritual energy, but what can we do... DB is very biased in favor of American media (Mini-Rant: Goku vs Superman was possibly the most childish cherry-picking I've seen in the show so far. Now, maybe Superman could defeat Goku, but DB made a very, very weak argument for it.

That rant is unbelievably hyperbolic. First, off there’s a leap from “Ki” is “spiritual” (which means many different things) to the conclusion that DB Ki-based attacks harm Superman more than say...colliding with a red-star. There’s specific energies in Superman comics that Superman is weak to, but that most I’ve seen he is weak to Ki attacks is a brief mention by Lex Luther of creating the science spire to use “chi” to attack him (it doesn’t get built). Superman is harmed by “magic” but its hardly an automatic loss against anyone magic.

Second, how is the notion of putting up the two fighters and asking who is stronger, tougher, and comparing the two is “cherry picking” and a “very very weak argument?” What would a strong argument look like?

I’ve extensively debated you before, I’ve since researched every alleged weakness of Superman in depth I can find and can find no substance to the claim that Goku has some sort of automatic win stemming from Ki.

The only other argument appears that Superman’s strength isn’t based on the comics properly, but he has demonstrated over-the-top cosmic levels of strength on many, many, occasions. To say DB picks the wrong times is a quibble. To Say Goku has shown equal or greater levels requires stretching the implications of what’s stated about Goku (and mostly in Super, after the first Goku v Superman was written) rather than clearly shown.

[Rynjin]

The problem is, and remains, that comics have multiple writers, while manga only have one (usually).

The inconsistency that stems from an eclectic creative vision will ALWAYS trump the unified vision of a single creator in the realm of randomly cherry picked power feats.

They should do away with comparing comics/manga characters entirely for that reason. There's no way to have a satisfying match up between a character that is as strong as whatever the writer of the day says they need to be (some days Spiderman has trouble lifting a car, sometimes he can throw a semi-truck) and someone that is generally more consistent.

[Lord Raziere]

They should do away with comparing comics/manga characters entirely for that reason. There's no way to have a satisfying match up between a character that is as strong as whatever the writer of the day says they need to be (some days Spiderman has trouble lifting a car, sometimes he can throw a semi-truck) and someone that is generally more consistent.

....Yeah that would pretty much destroy their entire income and content, because sure there are videogames and cartoons but often those have their own problems, they haven't done a single book character, and any movie characters that'd be interesting to compare these days would just be movie version of comic book characters. They'd be ruined. Therefore, I agree they SHOULD dispense with it.