Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Rater202]

Moody's Eye could see through it, but IIRC we don't really know where Moody's Eye came from: It's seemingly unique, so it could be another artifact.

[chainer1216]

Id say The Sight would see through the cloak, it allows the wizard(dresden in this case) to see things as they truely are, its been shown to be strong enough to see through the veils of Angels.

The downside being that anything you see with it is burned perfectly into the mind forever, and if what you happen to glance at is too horrible or too beautiful itll drive you mad.

And the last person to try to use invisibility against dresden payed for it because he pretended he couldnt see them and then sucker pu...blast them.

[Rater202]

Id say The Sight would see through the cloak, it allows the wizard(dresden in this case) to see things as they truely are, its been shown to be strong enough to see through the veils of Angels.

The downside being that anything you see with it is burned perfectly into the mind forever, and if what you happen to glance at is too horrible or too beautiful itll drive you man.

And the last person to try to use invisibility against dresden payed for it because he pretended he couldnt see them and then sucker pu...blast them.

The question is... What would Dresden See if he turned The Sight on Death's Own Shroud of Invisibility?

Harry is technically the rightful owner of all the Deathly Hallows: Does he have the other two? I can't see the Ring serving much practical purpose in a fight but the power boost from the Elder Wand might actually be enough to give Potter a fighting chance, and if looking at the Cloak with The Sight affects Dresden adversly, Death's other artifacts might have similar effects, compounding the sdvrse reaction(particularly the Wand, as he'd also be Seeing the wand's long and bloody history.)

[Forum Explorer]

Unless Dresden has some form of super-speed or super-shooting, I'd say it's at least possible for Potter to block or disable his gun. Beyond that, Dresden probably still has the advantage in terms of power. How would hard would the invisiblity cloak and broom be for Dresden to handle?



I'm pretty sure that although the Dursleys did cut Harry's food as a punishment and always gave their son more than him, it's specifically mentioned that they never truly starved him. Potter also spends most of the year at his school or the Weasley's house when he starts Hogwarts and they both feed him well. He's specifically noted as having had a massive growth spurt in the sixth book.



Really? I was planning to read the Dresden Files, but I'm not so sure now if the protagonist guns down people in cold blood, who are at worst trying to subdue him without harm.

He technically has both, if we're using Winter Knight Dresden, which we would since that power up is pretty much permanent. It comes with some downsides, as Dresden has picked up a weakness to iron and has to follow Fairy Law, but I don't think Harry knows enough to actually exploit those. Anyways, being the Winter Knight has made Dresden super strong, super tough, and yes, super fast. None of it is absurd levels, Captain America is a good example of what he's got in the tank, but he's still beyond any normal human at this point.

The broom? Way to easy. Dresden can throw wind around and have it be strong enough to throw people with it. He can also manipulate gravity. If Harry went on the broom, he'd likely die from Dresden knocking him out of the sky.

The Cloak? Dresden would likely have to use the Sight to counter it. Put me in the camp that says he'd see through it using it. It's literally never failed to see through anything. But it's not always up, so if Harry is using it, he'd get to take a shot before Dresden could bring it up.


The only time Dresden has gunned someone down in cold blood was when he ambushed a necromancer who could steal people's bodies. He has killed at other occasions, both before and afterwards, but it's never something he does lightly, and he tries to avoid it.

The question is... What would Dresden See if he turned The Sight on Death's Own Shroud of Invisibility?

Harry is technically the rightful owner of all the Deathly Hallows: Does he have the other two? I can't see the Ring serving much practical purpose in a fight but the power boost from the Elder Wand might actually be enough to give Potter a fighting chance, and if looking at the Cloak with The Sight affects Dresden adversly, Death's other artifacts might have similar effects, compounding the sdvrse reaction(particularly the Wand, as he'd also be Seeing the wand's long and bloody history.)

Eh, I doubt it would disconcert him that badly. Not after Seeing the Skinwalker. Which is worse on so many levels.

[chainer1216]

I dunno, if those items belonged to The Death, it would probably at least shock him until he could refocus. Though i cant remember him looking specifically at an object of power but an Angel did stop him from looking at its sword because it might "damage" him.

[Rater202]

I dunno, if those items belonged to The Death, it would probably at least shock him until he could refocus. Though i cant remember him looking specifically at an object of power but an Angel did stop him from looking at its sword because it might "damage" him.

To be fair, only the Cloak belonged to death. The other two were merely made by Death.

So the Cloak would be the worst, the Wand would probably be second worst--strictly speaking it'd have as much "deathness" as the Stone but would also have the long, long history of murdersassociated with it, followed by the stone which merely has a single suicde and then being owned by a family of unsavory people in it's history.

So it'd be more that the Cloak would be really bad, the other two would be bad but not as bad, but all three of them together might mess him up.

[Lemmy]

Eh... Even assuming the legend about the origin of the relics is true, just because something is made by Death, doesn't mean it's too horrifying or awesome to look at. Nothing in the books indicates that. In fact, the cloak looks pretty much like any other Invisibility Cloak, only more well made. There's no reason to assume it has any mind-blowing true appearance.

That said, an argument could be made that it can hide Potter from The Sight, since even Death can't see through it... But I wouldn't bet on it, considering The Sight has literally never failed to pierce through any veil... Even those of absurdly powerful creatures, such as archangels.

[Keltest]

I think theres a decent chance The Sight wouldn't be able to pierce the cloak. Having said that, invisibility is not silence, nor is it intangibility, so Dresden still has counterplays he can make.

I think the bigger question is whether or not a Circle would protect from Potter's magical attacks or not.

[Lemmy]

Well... Dresden is powerful enough to resist a death curse... Kinda of... The enemy realized he wouldn't be able to kill Dresden with his death curse so had to go for a lesser effect. Which also turned out to be a dud, after all...

[Rynjin]

I think theres a decent chance The Sight wouldn't be able to pierce the cloak. Having said that, invisibility is not silence, nor is it intangibility, so Dresden still has counterplays he can make.

The biggest counterplay being "FUEGO! PYROFUEGO!". A big enough firestorm gives no ****s about your invisibility.

[Traab]

The biggest counterplay being "FUEGO! PYROFUEGO!". A big enough firestorm gives no ****s about your invisibility.

Agreed, invisible is not intangible. And he has plenty of powerful shielding to block whatever sneak attack potter might spring on him. His freaking jacket can stand up to gunfire level damage at least. And his improved shield bracelet or whatever it was, can block pretty much anything else.

[Red Fel]

I think the bigger question is whether or not a Circle would protect from Potter's magical attacks or not.

Actually, there's reason to believe that the magical protections used by Dresden work in the Potterverse. For example, one of the classics in Dresden is that running water can block or dissipate magic. In one instance, a certain wizard was suspended under a continuous flow of water, preventing him from drawing on the power needed to escape.

This has happened in the Potterverse as well, after a fashion. The raid on Gringotts revealed that the goblins use a magic-dispelling waterfall as one of many security systems. That may be a unique property of that particular waterfall, or it may be a property of running water generally; it's kind of hard to glean from the isolated instances of wizards and water that we've seen in the Potterverse. (The lake at Hogwarts doesn't count, it's standing water, not flowing.)

It stands to reason, then, that at least this example exists between both worlds. We could extrapolate that others do as well. Circles, used as Dresden uses them, specifically cut off magic outside the circle from inside - much like how water dissipates magic. In theory, it should work just as well on Potterverse magic as on Dresdenverse magic.

[Keltest]

Actually, there's reason to believe that the magical protections used by Dresden work in the Potterverse. For example, one of the classics in Dresden is that running water can block or dissipate magic. In one instance, a certain wizard was suspended under a continuous flow of water, preventing him from drawing on the power needed to escape.

This has happened in the Potterverse as well, after a fashion. The raid on Gringotts revealed that the goblins use a magic-dispelling waterfall as one of many security systems. That may be a unique property of that particular waterfall, or it may be a property of running water generally; it's kind of hard to glean from the isolated instances of wizards and water that we've seen in the Potterverse. (The lake at Hogwarts doesn't count, it's standing water, not flowing.)

It stands to reason, then, that at least this example exists between both worlds. We could extrapolate that others do as well. Circles, used as Dresden uses them, specifically cut off magic outside the circle from inside - much like how water dissipates magic. In theory, it should work just as well on Potterverse magic as on Dresdenverse magic.

Water in the dresdenverse works that way whether its standing or flowing. Flowing is worse, but water dissipates magical energy period. More water, more dissipation. Dresden actually uses this to his advantage once, pouring magic into the water to maximize the area of effect.

[Dragonexx]

The waterfall in Gringotts was a unique thing called the Thief's Downfall installed as a security system. Nowhere else is water (running or otherwise) interfering with magic mentioned.

[Reddish Mage]

What happens to magic in water is just a tiny example of the nonsense of bringing together magic-users from other franchises into a shared universe to battle. HP magic shouldn’t work in the Dresden universe and vice-versa.

The rules of DeathBattle seem to be that each character gets his full array of magic (and other abilities) and that they work the way they normally do in the environment they are in. Normal water is part of the environment and would affect Dresden’s magic but not Harry Potter’s. Dresden’s magic circles, however, would block Harry Potter’s magic since it blocks “magic” and its part of Dresden’s arsenal.

Come to think of it, the same problem exists whenever two opponents go at it with their physics-breaking abilities. Often times neither abilities should work in the other’s universe or certain powers carry some heavy implications that they might not in another universe. There are little things such as how jumping in some comics allow for mid-air maneuvering and velocity changes and not others. More problematicly: the Speedforce shouldn’t exist at all outside the DC multiverse and come to think of it, neither should a lot of abilities of heroes across franchises, such a Superman’s solar powered superpowers.

The only way to actually tell these stories is to handwave both sets of powers in on their own terms. If you are willing to do that, you better be willing to allow the powers to interact with each other the way they are written to. If you start questioning how one system of magic interacts with each other because you get hung up on multiversal magic theory, you are really rejecting the premise of the whole set up.

[Keltest]

What happens to magic in water is just a tiny example of the nonsense of bringing together magic-users from other franchises into a shared universe to battle. HP magic shouldn’t work in the Dresden universe and vice-versa.

The rules of DeathBattle seem to be that each character gets his full array of magic (and other abilities) and that they work the way they normally do in the environment they are in. Normal water is part of the environment and would affect Dresden’s magic but not Harry Potter’s. Dresden’s magic circles, however, would block Harry Potter’s magic since it blocks “magic” and its part of Dresden’s arsenal.

Come to think of it, the same problem exists whenever two opponents go at it with their physics-breaking abilities. Often times neither abilities should work in the other’s universe or certain powers carry some heavy implications that they might not in another universe. There are little things such as how jumping in some comics allow for mid-air maneuvering and velocity changes and not others. More problematicly: the Speedforce shouldn’t exist at all outside the DC multiverse and come to think of it, neither should a lot of abilities of heroes across franchises, such a Superman’s solar powered superpowers.

The only way to actually tell these stories is to handwave both sets of powers in on their own terms. If you are willing to do that, you better be willing to allow the powers to interact with each other the way they are written to. If you start questioning how one system of magic interacts with each other because you get hung up on multiversal magic theory, you are really rejecting the premise of the whole set up.

The problem comes when one universe has more detailed explanations than others. the Potterverse is very much run on "it works because its magic, just roll with it." whereas the Dresdenverse goes into more detail, explaining what is happening, where the energy is coming from, and to a degree where it goes. A Circle works because its an act of mortal will, and Dresdenverse magic cares about that. As far as we know though, Potterverse magic doesn't. So is blocking magic a property of the circle, and therefore it works, or a property of Dresdenverse magic, and therefore it doesn't?

[Reddish Mage]

The problem comes when one universe has more detailed explanations than others. the Potterverse is very much run on "it works because its magic, just roll with it." whereas the Dresdenverse goes into more detail, explaining what is happening, where the energy is coming from, and to a degree where it goes. A Circle works because its an act of mortal will, and Dresdenverse magic cares about that. As far as we know though, Potterverse magic doesn't. So is blocking magic a property of the circle, and therefore it works, or a property of Dresdenverse magic, and therefore it doesn't?

You are taking the metaphysics too seriously. If Dresden makes one to contain magic it should work because it’s part of his abilities. Forget all but the most obvious and crudest ideas physics, metaphysics, and especially magical laws. They all don’t make sense in this context anyway.

Also whether something works as a function of its own properties or as merely a function of universal law is a deep philosophical question that can be asked of anything. While I’m sure the answer is extremely interesting, I think it’s probably bad policy to set up Death Battles to turn on the resolution of thorny philosophy.

[Keltest]

You are taking the metaphysics too seriously. If Dresden makes one to contain magic it should work because it’s part of his abilities. Forget all but the most obvious and crudest ideas physics, metaphysics, and especially magical laws. They all don’t make sense in this context anyway.

Also whether something works as a function of its own properties or as merely a function of universal law is a deep philosophical question that can be asked of anything. While I’m sure the answer is extremely interesting, I think it’s probably bad policy to set up Death Battles to turn on the resolution of thorny philosophy.

That doesn't really address my point. If somebody has the power of gravity manipulation, and somebody else flies by being unaffected by gravity, then the first person's power wont work on the second person, even though their power is functionally treated as just flight most of the time.

[Red Fel]

What happens to magic in water is just a tiny example of the nonsense of bringing together magic-users from other franchises into a shared universe to battle. HP magic shouldn’t work in the Dresden universe and vice-versa.

That's actually a concept explored in Harry Potter and the Natural 20, a delightful bit of fanfic that explores what would happen if a D&D caster arrived in the Potterverse. It does a good job of examining the interplay between the systems. For example, the protagonist (Milo) discovers that Potterverse wizards basically don't have saving throws, which is why there's no defense against various curses. So he creates talismans of Protection Against Evil which guarantee immunity to the Imperius Curse, because immunity is immunity. On the other hand, since the Killing Curse is a no-save-just-die effect, he doesn't really have any protection against that, regardless of class levels.

So it makes sense. If you look at either side's abilities as (1) whether they allow saves or interference, and (2) whether they deal direct damage, you can narrow things substantially. Consider a few points:
1. Most Potterverse spells don't allow a "save" - if they make contact, they take effect. Various hexes and charms work that way. So the trigger is contact.
2. Most Potterverse spells are not designed around dealing direct damage. The Killing Curse doesn't damage, it just kills. The ones that do, whether by conjuring fire or causing harm directly (i.e. Sectumsempra) tend to be less common.
3. Some Potterverse spells do not need to "hit" the target. These are generally movement-style spells, such as Expeliarmus or Accio, which only require you to aim or visualize.
4. The Invisibility Cloak is not absolute. As has been mentioned, it does not veil sound or physical contact, and Mad Eye's eye seemed to pick up on it.

Now, the other side:
1. A lot of Dresdenverse magic deals damage. Like, a whole lot.
2. Dresden has extensive knowledge of protective knowledge - Circles and barriers and thresholds and what-not. These are likely to count as contact-prevention.
3. Dresden is a more capable fighter than Potter, hands down, and has proven tremendously durable.
4. The Sight is absolute, and sees everything, to every degree of its existence. To the point where experienced wizards avoid overusing it, because some things are better left unseen. And unremembered.

So, put it all together. Most of Potter's hexes won't be able to make contact with Dresden if he erects his various shields and has his reinforced duster. It's even possible that Dresden could avoid a Killing Curse. Certain highly destructive magics, such as Fiendfyre, would still be a problem, but Dresden has used magic like that on his own. And spells like Sectumsempra would hurt him, but he has withstood worse. Like, a lot worse.

Potter's real advantages are the Cloak, and the various non-damage non-target spells he uses tactically, like Expeliarmus. That spell is only going to be of limited use, because not all of Dresden's magic requires objects. And, as has been mentioned, the Cloak's power is not absolute; the Sight is, however. Even if all it sees is an empty space, that's something. And it probably could, given that it sees not only what is there, but what makes up what is there (like the trees that made the wood that made a table, etc.) - an empty space is a bit too suspicious.

So, yeah, it's messy to try and mix magics, but I still think this works out in Dresden's favor.

[Reddish Mage]

That doesn't really address my point. If somebody has the power of gravity manipulation, and somebody else flies by being unaffected by gravity, then the first person's power wont work on the second person, even though their power is functionally treated as just flight most of the time.

What I am saying is that you can't figure out that Superman defies gravity and so is immune to gravity manipulation, just because he flies (and so must be immune to the affects of gravity). You are reading metaphysical properties and laws into the way the powers work.

If taken to its logical conclusion Death Battle likely won't work at all, because there's some contradictions in how everyone's powers work when you apply consistent reasoning to them. Also, if hypothetically, real physics applied in the universe Death Battle takes place in, no one's powers work and half the fighters probably couldn't physically exist.

Want a set up for a Death Battle where Solid Snake beats Superman? Just have their fight limited by real physics. Nothing Superman does works, all of Snake's abilities work just fine.

Even if (and its a big if) you managed to consistently work out a system to how the powers work in their reality-defying ways, what's to say there isn't another way to imagine the powers working?

The only fair way to approach questions like the metaphysical nature of the circle, is to ignore them or handwave them. We want to tell a story that could be written with minimal changes to how Dresden and Harry Power and their abilities behave. Just look to their abilities as they are written, don't try to project abilities and weaknesses the parties are not written to have because you speculate they can be extrapolated.

That's actually a concept explored in Harry Potter and the Natural 20, a delightful bit of fanfic that explores what would happen if a D&D caster arrived in the Potterverse. It does a good job of examining the interplay between the systems. For example, the protagonist (Milo) discovers that Potterverse wizards basically don't have saving throws, which is why there's no defense against various curses. So he creates talismans of Protection Against Evil which guarantee immunity to the Imperius Curse, because immunity is immunity. On the other hand, since the Killing Curse is a no-save-just-die effect, he doesn't really have any protection against that, regardless of class levels.

So it makes sense. If you look at either side's abilities as (1) whether they allow saves or interference, and (2) whether they deal direct damage, you can narrow things substantially.

HP and the Natural 20 is exactly the sort of reasoning I say is impermissible. How does Milo's magic even work in a universe with different magical laws? Why should he continue to forget his spells upon casting them?

HPN20 simply decides that HP wizards don't have saving throws, but Milo does since he's not from around there. They could have instead decided that HP powers don't allow saving throws instead. It even gets inconsistent and decides one spell (Avada Kadavra) allows no save, while other HP spells allow Milo saves (but no one else since they don't get saves).

Milo is incredibly powerful because precisely how HPN20 decides D&D spells and abilities work in the world. HP wizards are basically weak against him, while he is able to work well against them. If they decided that D&D wizards instead have saving throws just against Milo spells and abilities (or they automatically count as making their saves, because that makes as much sense as having them automatically lose) things wouldn't be the same at all.

Saving throws aren't even a function of magic in D&D, its a concept deeply embedded in the game world. Taking that concept out of the context of D&D and applying it to other fiction leads to absurdity. It makes HPN20 entertaining, but its absurd munchkin logic nevertheless.

HPN20 is merely one very arbitrary and overly clever way of handling a cross-over. Applying that sort of logic to Death Battle and things quickly get weirdly obtuse.

In the end you get results like a novice D&D wizard trouncing extremely experienced HP Wizards just like in Harry Potter and the Natural 20. Not because a low level wizard has ever been officially written to be a powerhouse like that, but because crossover mechanisms work in their favor!

[Kitten Champion]

I would say the invisibility cloak is a minor issue - according to the wiki and supported by evidence here - it blocks only optical sight and not magically-enhanced vision like Dementors or Mad-Eye Moody's eye, nor magical detection like the Marauder's Map. or the Human-presence-revealing Spell... which is a thing that's been shown used before apparently.

I was more curious to see if it's impervious to warding magic - such that both Dresden and HP universes have - and no, it isn't, it would trigger the same reaction as if walked into as normal. The magic resistance Harry's cloak as a Deathly Hallow has specifically is against any spell trying to erase the invisibility effect from the fabric itself.

Honestly, given the restrictiveness of having a large cloth on top of you and chances to be detected here, I think the invisibility cloak would be better left at home in this situation.

[Keltest]

What I am saying is that you can't figure out that Superman defies gravity and so is immune to gravity manipulation, just because he flies (and so must be immune to the affects of gravity). You are reading metaphysical properties and laws into the way the powers work.

I'm not "reading into" anything here. The author goes into a good deal of depth explaining why it is that a magic circle works the way it works, among other such rules of magic, because its important. Once Dresden conjures fire, it behaves like fire unless he puts forward additional energy to make it not behave that way. He can make a stone burst into flame, but it will only stay that way as long as he's pouring energy into it to make the fire stay.

Using these laws of magic in unexpected or unconventional ways is part of the charm of the series. Dresden once creates a block of ice by shooting a ray of fire into the sky and drawing the energy to power that from the ambient heat present in the object he wants to freeze. Heck, one of the most reliable ways to get around somebody being skilled at countering magic is to use magic indirectly, like making a giant ice spike and setting it flying at the target. The magic was in the creation and propulsion of the ice, while the damage comes from good old regular non-magical physics. I bring these things up because it matters.

[Celestia]

Superman's flight is an extension of his ability to leap tall buildings and is, therefore, based on superstrength, not gravity immunity. Also, in All-Star Superman, his weapon vault contains a "gravity gun" that he explicitly says can hurt him. He later uses that very same gun on Lex Luthor after Luthor acquires all of Superman's powers. Thus, Superman is most definitely not immune to gravity manipulation.

[Delicious Taffy]

Superman can jump super high. That's why he can hover in the air for hours at a time, change direction midflight, and any number of other aerial gymnastics. What, does he jump so hard, he's technically just travelling through space adjacent to Earth?

[deuterio12]

Superman can jump super high. That's why he can hover in the air for hours at a time, change direction midflight, and any number of other aerial gymnastics. What, does he jump so hard, he's technically just travelling through space adjacent to Earth?

Don't forget supes can also fly jump in space. His legs are so strong he can kick the empty void!

[Lemmy]

Superman's flight is an extension of his ability to leap tall buildings and is, therefore, based on superstrength, not gravity immunity. Also, in All-Star Superman, his weapon vault contains a "gravity gun" that he explicitly says can hurt him. He later uses that very same gun on Lex Luthor after Luthor acquires all of Superman's powers. Thus, Superman is most definitely not immune to gravity manipulation.

Superman was given flight as a logical extension of his original ability to leap tall buildings... But they are not the same ability. While he isn't immune to gravity, he's obviously capable of exerting force on his body without using his physical strength. IIRC, it's explained as some sort of limited telekinesis. At one point, he even mentions at that things seem lighter when he's flying.

[Mato]

Yes, and if Superman were a battle manga he'd learn that all of his powers come from his telekinesis. Like his energy draining heat vision is just a complicated method of exciting air molecules into plasma and channeling them in a tight beam against his opponent. Then he'd unlock some kind of super mode, like "Megaman" and he'd learn how to use his telekinesis to fire concussive air blasts out of his hand.

[Rynjin]

Yes, and if Superman were a battle manga he'd learn that all of his powers come from his telekinesis. Like his energy draining heat vision is just a complicated method of exciting air molecules into plasma and channeling them in a tight beam against his opponent. Then he'd unlock some kind of super mode, like "Megaman" and he'd learn how to use his telekinesis to fire concussive air blasts out of his hand.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or legitimately don't know that some versions of Superman DID actually explain all his powers as being an extension of his telekinesis (it handily explains why things he carries don't just crumble).

[JNAProductions]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or legitimately don't know that some versions of Superman DID actually explain all his powers as being an extension of his telekinesis (it handily explains why things he carries don't just crumble).

...

Why does Superman have telekinesis? Like, I get super strong, super fast, super durable... But where does telekinesis come from?

[Celestia]

...

Why does Superman have telekinesis? Like, I get super strong, super fast, super durable... But where does telekinesis come from?

Some writers thought that Superman was "unrealistic" and decided to explain all his powers in a way they thought made more sense. Why can Superman pick up and hold the Statue of Liberty by just its finger without breaking it? Zero range telekinesis activated by touch and made more powerful by increased muscle mass. It is, honestly, a worse explanation.