Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Traab]

My point was that they are not UNIQUELY human. If you look across the DC universe, most even remotely believable alien races have basically the same moral code, because being able to cooperate and get along is basically how civilization works.

It's exactly the same as saying he has AMERICAN morality. He doesn't. He's just moral.

I GET that his morals arent uniquely human, but that still doesnt change the fact that he was raise to be good by human morals. His code is one he learned at the teaching of his very much so human parents. So he acts like a good human should. And yes, you COULD say american, because there are very VERY different moral guidelines to life in other countries. While there is notable overlap, there are numerous, forum rule breaking, examples of how his personality would be different had he been found in china, or russia, or new zealand instead of kansas. Hell, we have actual comic storylines specifically about this very thing. He may no longer be about "truth, justice, and the american way" but he still has the moral upbringing of a good kansas farmboy at heart.

[Devonix]

I GET that his morals arent uniquely human, but that still doesnt change the fact that he was raise to be good by human morals. His code is one he learned at the teaching of his very much so human parents. So he acts like a good human should. And yes, you COULD say american, because there are very VERY different moral guidelines to life in other countries. While there is notable overlap, there are numerous, forum rule breaking, examples of how his personality would be different had he been found in china, or russia, or new zealand instead of kansas. Hell, we have actual comic storylines specifically about this very thing. He may no longer be about "truth, justice, and the american way" but he still has the moral upbringing of a good kansas farmboy at heart.

Superman is human and represents the good of humanity. Because he was raised as a human. He went to public school. his formative years were shaped by reading about heroes, and dealing with humanity. He's human in all ways but powers.

[deuterio12]

His philosophy is entirely human though. He was raised from his toddler years on up to be a good person as humans define the term. These two decent hard working kansas farmers raised their adopted boy to live his life by that set of morals, and with that outlook on life. Obviously humans arent the only decent species out there, but that doesnt change the fact that superman was raised with human standards of behavior and he sticks to them. Thats why his nickname is boy scout, and not green lantern, or whatever a moral thanagarian warrior would be called, etc etc etc.

Calling supes boy scout is precisely pointing out he's way too moral, like a naive kid.

Any other human trying to live by supes morales would be dead meat as an adult, but again supes has the privilege of alien godlike powers. If he's low on money he can just super-create some diamonds. If he's bored he can super-travel anywhere in the Earth if not the universe. If he sees crime in action, supes can just jump in and save the day because he's a godlike alien who laughs at puny humie weapons and thus has no risk for himself.

But mortal humans need to struggle with jobs to pay their bills and need to carefully manage their time since they can't move at supersonic speeds and if a group of lunatic shows up with guns blazing, trying to jump at them with your bare hands will only senselessly waste your life.

The best thing that can be said about supes education is that he doesn't use his godlike powers to take over Earth and rule it under a steel fist.

[Reddish Mage]

You can level the criticism of a lot of heroes that their virtues only stem from their greater ability. Its a common criticism of “paragons of morality” even to the extent that I’ve seen written criticisms of Warren Buffet exhortations for morality that “there’s plenty of ways to make money without being unethical” by adding the amendment “if your Warren Buffet.”

If you want to make a claim about how reality works, that requires looking at how each behavior is unrealistic and unsustainable by a real person. I take issue to think that it isn’t entirely possible for real people to say, avoid killing people, or spend time rescuing people, show bravery, be very altruistic, or speak and act in a way that is very honest and just. Perhaps, not in percisely situations where that requires superheating to find and virtual invulnerability to withstand, but absolutely in more realistic contexts that people absolutely face.

However, if you look at these as literary characters, it really is possible to write them as doing practically the same things. To what extent is Superman the inspiration for nearly every other Superhero out there? Marvel or DC? How many live double lives, spend time as one person 911 service, and even use the costume as a means to communicate and uphold values.

By the same token, you would argue Captain America only shows the positive effects of having the right drugs in the right body, that Spider-Man without powers wouldn’t be doing anything special and the Green Lanterns are basically ordinary people without their rings.

However, all of these characters, Superman included, have had stories where they lose their powers, and...they are still those great people. They take great risks even without powers, and eventually they are rewarded by having the powers return. Sometimes there are even stories where the characters never get their powers in the first place and they still end up being very productive people in those alternative universes.

[Lemmy]

The best thing that can be said about supes' education is that he doesn't use his godlike powers to take over Earth and rule it under a steel fist.

This... Is no small feat. Imagine being able to do whatever you wanted, go wherever you wanted, have whatever you wanted... And no one could stop you... Can you say with 100% confidence that you wouldn't abuse your powers? That you would never let them corrupt you? I sure can't. And I'd bet money that neither can you nor any other human on the face of this planet, unless they're completely delusional.

Superman not only never abuses his powers (not even in the petty, but harmless ways), he actually uses them for the benefit of humanity, from lowest to highest, with no distinction. He lives most of his days as a normal human too... Takes a bus to go to his job, where he works to pay his bills. He honestly doesn't seem himself as better than humans, just lucky enough to have being born with power. And he uses his gifts to help others to the best of his ability. And it's been repeatedly proven that even if he didn't have his powers, he'd still be a force for good in the world.

He can be too trusting and naive, sure. But that doesn't take away from his virtue. In some ways, it even adds to it. Despite all the evil he has seen first-hand, Superman still manages believe in (and fight for) a better future and inspire others to do the same.

Superman (when well-written) is a magnificent character. Unfortunately, few stories and fewer writers manage to capture that.

[HolyDraconus]

Superman, when well written, isn't human.

[Lord Raziere]

Superman, when well written, isn't human.

In a biological fact way or a figurative/psychological way? Cause there is multiple kinds of "isn't human" to unpack there.

[HolyDraconus]

In a biological fact way or a figurative/psychological way? Cause there is multiple kinds of "isn't human" to unpack there.

Both. Seriously.

[Rater202]

Kal-El is literally too moral to be human.

He's purely and unironically good without an ill-willed bone in his body. It takes a lot to make him genuinely angry, and even then he's more likely to just screw with your head till you learn the error of your ways than actually cause you serious harm if he has any choice in the matter.

In the comics, once killing a man of monstrous temperament in self-defense caused Superman a great deal of mental distress--the only person with a sronger code against killing in DC is Batman, and Batman is often written as being mentally ill with Batman and his code being that mental illness made manifest.

That's part of what he's supposed to be and what makes him not human. Not even Saints have that kind of patients and morality, and no man alive has had the temptation that Clark has.

[Otomodachi]

I GET that his morals arent uniquely human, but that still doesnt change the fact that he was raise to be good by human morals. His code is one he learned at the teaching of his very much so human parents. So he acts like a good human should. And yes, you COULD say american, because there are very VERY different moral guidelines to life in other countries. While there is notable overlap, there are numerous, forum rule breaking, examples of how his personality would be different had he been found in china, or russia, or new zealand instead of kansas. Hell, we have actual comic storylines specifically about this very thing. He may no longer be about "truth, justice, and the american way" but he still has the moral upbringing of a good kansas farmboy at heart.

So, without getting into a discussion of REAL WORLD philosophy, Superman lives in a imaginary universe where morality is much more absolute than it is here. Within the DC comics universe, what is moral in America is still what is moral in New Zealand. You are absolutely right that his PERSONALITY would be different, but whether or not he was acting morally is not subjective within the confines of the DC universe because it is a work of fiction, created by a finite set of people that have a (well, I would ASSUME!) at least vaguely concrete view on what is and is not moral.

If you live in a world where Grant Morrison is your creator, whatever his view of morality is is the OBJECTIVE morality of that world.

THAT ASIDE! I do wanna take a second and say, like, if you disagree with me that's totally cool. We're talking about interpreting a work of fiction so it's pretty normal for people to disagree.

Rater02, you kinda summed up what I was trying to say better than I could. Superman is not human because, even aside from the super powers bit, no human can be as moral as Superman. They would end up starving to death. The guy is flippin solar powered, folks! :P

[Devonix]

So, without getting into a discussion of REAL WORLD philosophy, Superman lives in a imaginary universe where morality is much more absolute than it is here. Within the DC comics universe, what is moral in America is still what is moral in New Zealand. You are absolutely right that his PERSONALITY would be different, but whether or not he was acting morally is not subjective within the confines of the DC universe because it is a work of fiction, created by a finite set of people that have a (well, I would ASSUME!) at least vaguely concrete view on what is and is not moral.

If you live in a world where Grant Morrison is your creator, whatever his view of morality is is the OBJECTIVE morality of that world.

THAT ASIDE! I do wanna take a second and say, like, if you disagree with me that's totally cool. We're talking about interpreting a work of fiction so it's pretty normal for people to disagree.

Rater02, you kinda summed up what I was trying to say better than I could. Superman is not human because, even aside from the super powers bit, no human can be as moral as Superman. They would end up starving to death. The guy is flippin solar powered, folks! :P

There is a reason that Superman is called " The Man of Tomorrow " It's not because of the powers. The Man of Tomorrow. Is a man who holds onto his morals above all else. A person who is just inherently good. The Man of tomorrow is what Humanity can become. He's us at our best and the light we're chasing. But still very much human.

[Lemmy]

Superman's morality, while completely unrealistic, isn't due to his powers, as he has proves many times in stories where he's depowered (some of which are pretty good stories too). It also isn't unique in fiction. Other characters, such as Captain America and Spider-Man also display this so-called "superhuman" morality.

[Kato]

This... Is no small feat. Imagine being able to do whatever you wanted, go wherever you wanted, have whatever you wanted... And no one could stop you... Can you say with 100% confidence that you wouldn't abuse your powers? That you would never let them corrupt you? I sure can't. And I'd bet money that neither can you nor any other human on the face of this planet, unless they're completely delusional.

Superman not only never abuses his powers (not even in the petty, but harmless ways), he actually uses them for the benefit of humanity, from lowest to highest, with no distinction.

Okay, I am in no way a professional on superman but I quite clearly remember him using his powers to see through Lois' dress in one of the old movies. And while I won't say he is not most of the time a pinnacle of (the author's) morality, except when he is an evil version of himself, I'm pretty confident you can find examples where he uses his powers in harmless personal matters. So... Yeah, you're exaggerating a bit.

Also, even if I was supes, I would not want to rule the world. That sounds like way too much work. I mean, yeah, I would totally use my powers to have an easy life and do some good and some selfish things, but what do I want with world domination?


On another note... Considering we had a few bits of JL vs Avengers.. Who would you put against Hal? Or whichever Lantern happens to be on the team at the time.

[Reddish Mage]

Okay, I am in no way a professional on superman but I quite clearly remember him using his powers to see through Lois' dress in one of the old movies.


On another note... Considering we had a few bits of JL vs Avengers.. Who would you put against Hal? Or whichever Lantern happens to be on the team at the time.

In the first Superman movie he tells Lois her underwear color during her interview after she asked him a direct question to demonstrate his claimed power of x-ray vision.

I would think Scarlet Witch is the closest to Hal...but Scarlet Witch is a reality warper...

[Rater202]

Superman's morality, while completely unrealistic, isn't due to his powers, as he has proves many times in stories where he's depowered (some of which are pretty good stories too). It also isn't unique in fiction. Other characters, such as Captain America and Spider-Man also display this so-called "superhuman" morality.

Cap and Spidey learned that by example scaled to greater abillity and the hard way, respectively.

Most continuities, Superman just had a normal childhood, and that's in canons where he wasn't a Superhero from the start.

Also, Spidey and Cap are both magnitudes of power below Superman. There are plenty of people who could theoretically stop them if they go rogue.

They don't have the sheer level of temptation that Clark has because they're not constantly growing beings of Godlike power that are superior to many actual Gods.

[Knaight]

Kal-El is literally too moral to be human.

He's purely and unironically good without an ill-willed bone in his body. It takes a lot to make him genuinely angry, and even then he's more likely to just screw with your head till you learn the error of your ways than actually cause you serious harm if he has any choice in the matter.

In the comics, once killing a man of monstrous temperament in self-defense caused Superman a great deal of mental distress--the only person with a sronger code against killing in DC is Batman, and Batman is often written as being mentally ill with Batman and his code being that mental illness made manifest.

He's hardly too moral to be human - being consistently good willed is something done by a number of people, and as for killing a terrible person and feeling bad about it people routinely are downright traumatized from killing in self defense, regardless of how terrible the person is.

That's without getting into the numerous "superman goes evil" stories.

That's part of what he's supposed to be and what makes him not human. Not even Saints have that kind of patients and morality, and no man alive has had the temptation that Clark has.

Putting aside the question of whether saints are even particularly moral people in the first place: Superman's patience and morality are hardly inhuman. Exceptional, maybe, but the character suffers from being written as a paragon of morality by people who's morality was itself flawed, and thus inherited those flaws.

[Lord Raziere]

He's hardly too moral to be human - being consistently good willed is something done by a number of people, and as for killing a terrible person and feeling bad about it people routinely are downright traumatized from killing in self defense, regardless of how terrible the person is.

That's without getting into the numerous "superman goes evil" stories.


Putting aside the question of whether saints are even particularly moral people in the first place: Superman's patience and morality are hardly inhuman. Exceptional, maybe, but the character suffers from being written as a paragon of morality by people who's morality was itself flawed, and thus inherited those flaws.

Aye. Superman always struck me as psychologically human in his morality despite his godlike power. Even his evil stories often feel like a person saying "I'm tired of this, SCREW IT! I'm just doing this however I want!" out of anger and because his godlike power it affects way more than most. Because who wouldn't get tired of supervillains messing everything up eventually? Because like all the evil superman stories I can remember, he still tries to fix the world, he just starts using morally ambiguous and extreme methods to do so. So it often feels like he just loses patience for doing things in the correct way so he can get some results. All of that sounds human to me.

[Lemmy]

Okay, I am in no way a professional on superman but I quite clearly remember him using his powers to see through Lois' dress in one of the old movies. And while I won't say he is not most of the time a pinnacle of (the author's) morality, except when he is an evil version of himself, I'm pretty confident you can find examples where he uses his powers in harmless personal matters. So... Yeah, you're exaggerating a bit.

Also, even if I was supes, I would not want to rule the world. That sounds like way too much work. I mean, yeah, I would totally use my powers to have an easy life and do some good and some selfish things, but what do I want with world domination?


On another note... Considering we had a few bits of JL vs Avengers.. Who would you put against Hal? Or whichever Lantern happens to be on the team at the time.

Yes. There are also versions of Superman where he's completely fine killing criminals. And back in the Silver age, he was actually kind of a ****. That kind on inconsistency is inevitable when you have 80+ years of history and gods know how many writers. But modern Superman is usually portrayed as incredibly moral, to the point where he avoids using his powers for personal gain in order to remain in touch with common men (or at least he was... In the last decade or so, DC seemingly decided to make everyone some shade of Batman-gritty).

You don't see Superman using his powers to make money, cut lines, avoid traffic, invade other people's privacy or to be the first to get to the story (unless he thinks he can help someone if he's there). Although there are occasionally a few light-hearted panels of him using his powers for everyday tasks to make it more interesting (or because ti's the only thing that makes sense... Like him using his heat vision to shave himself because no razor can cut through his beard).

And BTW: "Abusing your powers" and "Being corrupted by power" doesn't necessarily imply world domination. That's only one (particularly megalomaniacal) way someone could abuse Superman's powers.

[HolyDraconus]

You look at a hero, by looking at her rogue gallery. To date, I personally, which doesn't mean much, have found zero villains blue boy fights that would ever switch teams. Lex came close and it took a GOOD counterpart to clean up.

Then you look at others. Shocker. Croc. Vulture. Dr. Octopus.....The Manderin.. Red Hulk....literally everyone in Batmans city. Yes, including the Joker.


Supes is an alien. His morality is alien. Those are irrefutable. So his bad guys have to have THAT same resolution to properly be his foils. When Supes screw up it's generally either something epic, or a what if story. Cap was outed as a hydra agent (again). Spider's whole shtick for a while there was that he couldn't STOP screwing up. Jason Todd is one of MANY of Bats mistakes.
To err is to be human.
Superman can't. He would never cheat on Lois (or whoever the writer wants him to be with). His past doesn't have a mine field of mistakes. He is perfection. Which immediately disqualifies you as human. Which makes his morality as alien to humans as he is:something on the surface that looks extremely similar, but couldn't be any further apart underneath. If I want to look at the best of humanity, I look at Cap. He tries. Or Spidey. He tries. Or OG Green I hate wood Lantern. He tried. Supes DOES. And that should be plenty proof.

[Devonix]

You look at a hero, by looking at her rogue gallery. To date, I personally, which doesn't mean much, have found zero villains blue boy fights that would ever switch teams. Lex came close and it took a GOOD counterpart to clean up.

Then you look at others. Shocker. Croc. Vulture. Dr. Octopus.....The Manderin.. Red Hulk....literally everyone in Batmans city. Yes, including the Joker.


Supes is an alien. His morality is alien. Those are irrefutable. So his bad guys have to have THAT same resolution to properly be his foils. When Supes screw up it's generally either something epic, or a what if story. Cap was outed as a hydra agent (again). Spider's whole shtick for a while there was that he couldn't STOP screwing up. Jason Todd is one of MANY of Bats mistakes.
To err is to be human.
Superman can't. He would never cheat on Lois (or whoever the writer wants him to be with). His past doesn't have a mine field of mistakes. He is perfection. Which immediately disqualifies you as human. Which makes his morality as alien to humans as he is:something on the surface that looks extremely similar, but couldn't be any further apart underneath. If I want to look at the best of humanity, I look at Cap. He tries. Or Spidey. He tries. Or OG Green I hate wood Lantern. He tried. Supes DOES. And that should be plenty proof.

Supes has good villains. However what really draws me and a lot of people to Superman isn't that his Villains are the best. it's that he's got one of the best supporting cast in comics. To the point that almost every single member of the Superman Supporting cast has headlined their own ongoing and beloved comic books on their own.

There's a reason why Superman as a Father is such an exciting thing for everyone. We love Supes living his life with friends and family.

[Reddish Mage]

You look at a hero, by looking at her rogue gallery. To date, I personally, which doesn't mean much, have found zero villains blue boy fights that would ever switch teams. Lex came close and it took a GOOD counterpart to clean up.

Then you look at others. Shocker. Croc. Vulture. Dr. Octopus.....The Manderin.. Red Hulk....literally everyone in Batmans city. Yes, including the Joker.


Supes is an alien. His morality is alien. Those are irrefutable. So his bad guys have to have THAT same resolution to properly be his foils. When Supes screw up it's generally either something epic, or a what if story.

I notice that these sorts of argument rely heavily on "logical" reasoning by extrapolating from an odd and vague point about the comic. Also, the basis for these extrapolations show your knowledge of what "superman" is...is really really narrow.

Plenty of Superman's villains are very human and some have turned hero. Recently Atlas but if that's too much of a stretch then look to all the x-superman and alt-supermen characters who ended up that way (showing how human even the inhuman warped superman-esqe characters are, I'm talking about Bizzaro, Superboy prime, Cyborg Superman, Composite Superman etc). There's antagonists that turned, then sacrificed themselves.

Lex has been portrayed as very human and often having a mix of good and bad intentions. He is willing to team up from time to time against a greater threat. Here's a few examples.

Cap was outed as a hydra agent (again). Spider's whole shtick for a while there was that he couldn't STOP screwing up. Jason Todd is one of MANY of Bats mistakes.
To err is to be human.
Superman can't. He would never cheat on Lois (or whoever the writer wants him to be with). His past doesn't have a mine field of mistakes. He is perfection. Which immediately disqualifies you as human. Which makes his morality as alien to humans as he is:something on the surface that looks extremely similar, but couldn't be any further apart underneath. If I want to look at the best of humanity, I look at Cap. He tries. Or Spidey. He tries. Or OG Green I hate wood Lantern. He tried. Supes DOES. And that should be plenty proof.

Again Superman is not always portrayed as a saint, as other posters noted, but even taking him at his most saintly. There are no other great saints in fiction....? You want examples of those with great power?

Aang, Luke Skywalker (minus Episode VIII)...

Also, look into monk saint characters in manga and Eastern literature, they are not unheard of.

Myth provides many more examples, including historical myths like George Washington or Abraham Lincoln in the stories (these are powerful people, especially in the stories).

For more truly great saints that have resisted great temptation and done tremendous deeds....there are some great Western literature works a few thousand years old that have a few examples...

Secular versions that are great paragons of morality its not hard to find ether. Camus "The Stranger" or Ayn Rand's "John Galt" (and other protagonists) are examples of paragons of the author's morality and perhaps a rather particular moral agenda.

If you want to argue that no human can be written to be a paragon of morality to the extent of Superman, there is plenty literature that goes the other way...also historical, mythic, and religious figures that have been written about extensively. That's true even if you wish to limit examples only to those that held great power and resisted mighty temptations.

There are a lot of humans that have been written about as representing the very pinnacle of morality

If you wish to instead argue that no human can actually be as moral as Superman...I think that's an hypothetical that is probably impossible to establish.

[Traab]

You look at a hero, by looking at her rogue gallery. To date, I personally, which doesn't mean much, have found zero villains blue boy fights that would ever switch teams. Lex came close and it took a GOOD counterpart to clean up.

Then you look at others. Shocker. Croc. Vulture. Dr. Octopus.....The Manderin.. Red Hulk....literally everyone in Batmans city. Yes, including the Joker.


Supes is an alien. His morality is alien. Those are irrefutable. So his bad guys have to have THAT same resolution to properly be his foils. When Supes screw up it's generally either something epic, or a what if story. Cap was outed as a hydra agent (again). Spider's whole shtick for a while there was that he couldn't STOP screwing up. Jason Todd is one of MANY of Bats mistakes.
To err is to be human.
Superman can't. He would never cheat on Lois (or whoever the writer wants him to be with). His past doesn't have a mine field of mistakes. He is perfection. Which immediately disqualifies you as human. Which makes his morality as alien to humans as he is:something on the surface that looks extremely similar, but couldn't be any further apart underneath. If I want to look at the best of humanity, I look at Cap. He tries. Or Spidey. He tries. Or OG Green I hate wood Lantern. He tried. Supes DOES. And that should be plenty proof.

His morality is NOT alien. Its human. He was raised by humans, taught how to behave by humans, has patterned his behavior on what humans feel is "good" Just because his ability to be good is beyond that of most humans to match does not make his morality alien somehow. You might as well proclaim that any athlete that sets a world record is alien because he did whatever he did better than any other person alive can.

[deuterio12]

This... Is no small feat. Imagine being able to do whatever you wanted, go wherever you wanted, have whatever you wanted... And no one could stop you... Can you say with 100% confidence that you wouldn't abuse your powers? That you would never let them corrupt you? I sure can't. And I'd bet money that neither can you nor any other human on the face of this planet, unless they're completely delusional.

Indeed, when I said it was superman's biggest feat I did mean big. But again, it just shows how much of an alien godlike being he is.

Or maybe conquering puny Earth just wouldn't be worth the effort for super. Like that "A gift for the man who has everything" story where the other super heroes struggle to figure out what to offer supes in his birthday that he couldn't get himself in a second.

Superman not only never abuses his powers (not even in the petty, but harmless ways), he actually uses them for the benefit of humanity, from lowest to highest, with no distinction. He lives most of his days as a normal human too... Takes a bus to go to his job, where he works to pay his bills. He honestly doesn't seem himself as better than humans, just lucky enough to have being born with power. And he uses his gifts to help others to the best of his ability. And it's been repeatedly proven that even if he didn't have his powers, he'd still be a force for good in the world.

Superman does abuses his powers now and then. Silver age and movies are more blatant, but I also remember more modern comics where like he took Lois to dinner to Paris by super flight (skipping spending money and time in a cramped plane) and there was also that extra-douchebag co-worker at the Daily Planet that made Superman use his powers for "petty, but (mostly) harmless" revenge. And something that's always been canon for quite some time is his Fortress of Solitude in the middle of nowhere that only he can reach and enter in a safe and reliable way.

Also he never gets sick and when crossing the street he needs to worry about not running over cars instead of the other way around.

He can be too trusting and naive, sure. But that doesn't take away from his virtue. In some ways, it even adds to it. Despite all the evil he has seen first-hand, Superman still manages believe in (and fight for) a better future and inspire others to do the same.

He can be trusting and naive only because of his alien godlike powers. Superman needs not fear death nor the feeling of powerless. He can always do something about any problem he wants to solve and being shot/stabbed/burned/frozen is something that happens to other people.

That's why they added krytonite as special weakness and eventually they had the whole Death of Superman thingy to try to revitalize the franchise. Suddenly, something that actually could slay the alien godlike being!

Superman (when well-written) is a magnificent character. Unfortunately, few stories and fewer writers manage to capture that.

But that's the thing, you simply can't ignore all the other stories where supes goes to relax in his high-tech mansion away from all mortal troubles or uses his alien godlike powers for personal gain.

[Reddish Mage]

Also, DC’s alien god villains are very human. Jack Kirby created the New Gods of Apokolips not as aliens but as an extreme version of a very specific sort of human evil.

Given Kirby’s own origins and background, he knew exactly what he was doing and the import of the language he was using.

[Kitten Champion]

I find this alien/human morality dichotomy kind of... misleading.

I mean, I can understand that some interpretations of Kryptonians have pushed them to being cold, arrogant, and contemptuous to the value of the lives of other sapient life. Like Zod and co. in Man of Steel, where being raised on Earth is supposed to define Clark Kent as a character, and Krypton apparently had nothing of value worth preserving (I don't want to go down the MoS rabbit-hole here, it's just the most visible iteration of the Krypton-as-amoral that I can point to). Superman in this paradigm is marked by alienation and existential struggle over his own identity, and has to live down the reputation of Krypton for its various sins after it died an ignoble death. This concept is much more Christ-figure than Moses.

However, I've seen versions where Kryptonians just like humans on a fundamental moral level -- most of the animated versions I've seen for instance. The original intent behind the world eventually called Krypton was that it was just like Earth but its version of humans evolved much earlier and now represent a much later evolution of our species. Superman and Krypton were aspirational, "The Man of Tomorrow" and whatnot. Superman in this paradigm is marked as an orphan of Eden doomed to tragic misfortune, and has to live up to the concept of Krypton. This concept is much more Moses than Christ-figure.

Both can equally valid, it just depends on what you want to focus upon with the character.

[deuterio12]

Also, DC’s alien god villains are very human. Jack Kirby created the New Gods of Apokolips not as aliens but as an extreme version of a very specific sort of human evil.

Given Kirby’s own origins and background, he knew exactly what he was doing and the import of the language he was using.

Well yeah that's why they are VILLAINS. But then Apokolips gods also get their goody-two-shoes counterparts that created an utopic society.

While supes is happy letting the Joker nerve gas orphanages every other sunday just because he doesn't want to interfere in Bat's personal playground.

[Reddish Mage]

[rough suggestion that the good Apokoliptic gods are weird] While supes is happy letting the Joker nerve gas orphanages every other sunday just because he doesn't want to interfere in Bat's personal playground.

A statement like this shows that you have no interest in reading the comics the way the writers intended, or the way they are traditionally read, and instead form your own judgments about the characters based on fridge logic.

You are free to extrapolate all manner strange things by drawing your own conclusions from how the DC universe seems to operate, but its just a fan wank.

[Devonix]

You wanna know what makes Supes who he is and why we say he's human. These two pages are why I keep coming back to his books.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_nfdYFN--...600/RCO022.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fyUbgeFo7...600/RCO023.jpg

[deuterio12]

A statement like this shows that you have no interest in reading the comics the way the writers intended, or the way they are traditionally read, and instead form your own judgments about the characters based on fridge logic.

So silver age superman and movie superman and the rest of the DC universe are all just fan wank, and only your favorite two pages of that one comic is canon and you can also read the author's mind at the moment he was writing those two pages?

EDIT: Also found modern superman using his powers for petty revenge:

I must say that it does make superman look quite human after all!

[Devonix]

So silver age superman and movie superman and the rest of the DC universe are all just fan wank, and only your favorite two pages of that one comic is canon and you can also read the author's mind at the moment he was writing those two pages?

EDIT: Also found modern superman using his powers for petty revenge:

I must say that it does make superman look quite human after all!

I think I see the problem. I don't consider this petty revenge. It's a prank. They're friends. and while Steve may be a jerk at times Clark knows he's a good man. Sometimes though you just wanna punch Steve in the face.

Steve Lombard and Clark Kent pulling pranks on each other have been a thing for over a generation.



Steve pulls a prank. Clark catches it and pulls a prank on Steve. But end of the day he knows that he's a good person so it never goes too far. That's not " Using his power for Petty revenge "