Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Rater202]

I think the bigger question is, can somebody successfully pull off a sneak attack on Goku?

A guy shot him through the heart with a "mere laser gun" that was hidden in a ring while his guard was done in Resurrection F.

Basically, you just have to get him when he's not expecting an attack.

[Lemmy]

A guy shot him through the heart with a "mere laser gun" that was hidden in a ring while his guard was done in Resurrection F.

Basically, you just have to get him when he's not expecting an attack.

Eh... Kinda of... He does have super-human durability even while sleeping. In the original DB, Launch once wakes him (and Muten Roshi, IIRC) by shooting them with a machine gun! And we don't know exactly how powerful that laser was. After all, that was the empire with enough technology to make Freeza a cyborg body that was even more powerful than Freeza himself... Plus a bunch of generic blasters that could blow up houses.

[Reddish Mage]

Eh... Kinda of... He does have super-human durability even while sleeping. In the original DB, Launch once wakes him (and Muten Roshi, IIRC) by shooting them with a machine gun! And we don't know exactly how powerful that laser was. After all, that was the empire with enough technology to make Freeza a cyborg body that was even more powerful than Freeza himself... Plus a bunch of generic blasters that could blow up houses.

Dragonball is so distant from Super I wouldn’t trust any concepts, especially not stuff like Goku’s resting durability. Recall that its not apparent in the original DB whether anyone is an alien, they all appear to be mystical monsters and demons.

I recall the laser used by Sorbet is called commonplace. It is given some low power rating. Frieza calls it a cheap trick and forbids it. It is not some special incredible laser. Goku was in his base form and had his guard down.

[Traab]

Funny thing is, technically, naruto COULD pull the "he dropped his guard /gank" move. Clones and substitution. Hell, it used to be his best move in fights against opponents that kick him like a hackey sack.Goku pounds fifty flavors of pain out of naruto with ease. There is some big attack that creates a dustcloud, it clears and we see naruto lying bloody and beaten on the ground. Goku depowers himself ready to move on then takes a rasenshuriken to the spine or whatever.

[Lemmy]

Dragonball is so distant from Super I wouldn’t trust any concepts, especially not stuff like Goku’s resting durability. Recall that its not apparent in the original DB whether anyone is an alien, they all appear to be mystical monsters and demons.

I recall the laser used by Sorbet is called commonplace. It is given some low power rating. Frieza calls it a cheap trick and forbids it. It is not some special incredible laser. Goku was in his base form and had his guard down.

Well, I'll trust what's shown over assumptions.

[Reddish Mage]

Well, I'll trust what's shown over assumptions.

We’re shown Goku getting hit by a laser to the chest and is mortally injured. Its described as an ordinary laser.

Previously way back in Dragon Ball, we have seen kid Goku get hit with bullets without any problems. After Resurrection F there is a scene where Goku gets scratched by a bullet and thinks its a sign he was slacking off on training.

During the Cross-Universe 6-7 Tournament Goku gets poisoned by a needle Frost uses.

So we see in Super Goku gets hurt several times by weapons (even a minor scrap from a bullet), but DB suggests he is more or less immune to bullet fire. It seems the data shown support that Goku get be harmed by weapons, at least when his guard is dropped, but maybe he can’t be seriously harmed by bullets because of some episodes in a predecessor comedy series nearly 30 years ago.

[Rynjin]

There's also the fact that Super is only nebulously canon and not really written by Toriyama himself, much like GT or the movies.

[deuterio12]

We’re shown Goku getting hit by a laser to the chest and is mortally injured. Its described as an ordinary laser.

Previously way back in Dragon Ball, we have seen kid Goku get hit with bullets without any problems. After Resurrection F there is a scene where Goku gets scratched by a bullet and thinks its a sign he was slacking off on training.

During the Cross-Universe 6-7 Tournament Goku gets poisoned by a needle Frost uses.

So we see in Super Goku gets hurt several times by weapons (even a minor scrap from a bullet), but DB suggests he is more or less immune to bullet fire. It seems the data shown support that Goku get be harmed by weapons, at least when his guard is dropped, but maybe he can’t be seriously harmed by bullets because of some episodes in a predecessor comedy series nearly 30 years ago.

Goku originally started as not-Monkey King (in particular the growing staff that eventually was forgotten, also monkey tail and giant monkey rampages).

And one of the Monkey King's key features is iron-hard skin, hence bullets bouncing off young Goku.

Plus as Gundam teaches us, just because your plating can tank bullets doesn't make you immune to lasers. Luckily very few people in DBverse seem to have realized the power of lasers since the Earth's military keeps using old kinetic guns and explosives.

[Lord Raziere]

There's also the fact that Super is only nebulously canon and not really written by Toriyama himself, much like GT or the movies.

No, I think thats just what you want it to be, there are no sources that say so.

[Reddish Mage]

There's also the fact that Super is only nebulously canon and not really written by Toriyama himself, much like GT or the movies.

How is that a fact? Toriyama is actively involved in Super, as he was in the movies the immediately preceded it and both were meant to be a continuation of Dragon Ball Z. This source describes him shaping Super in big ways.

I also don’t know what you want to say about canon. If you are suggesting SSJ3 is the strongest official Goku that’s been wrong for awhile now. GT was “official” at one point even if it is not canon now (notwithstanding that someone wants to argue it somehow still is).

Super is an official continuation and you can expect media that follows to remain consistent with it.

Finally, this is the Death Battle thread. Death Battle rules is that they look at all official material that do not contradict canon. Super certainly informs what Goku can and cannot do, and what abilities and immunities he has.

[Devonix]

There's also the fact that Super is only nebulously canon and not really written by Toriyama himself, much like GT or the movies.

That's not what Canon means.

[Dragonus45]

There's also the fact that Super is only nebulously canon and not really written by Toriyama himself, much like GT or the movies.

This is absolutely false and directly contradicted by Toriyama himself.

[Rynjin]

This is absolutely false and directly contradicted by Toriyama himself.

Source? Toriyama very rarely makes public statements or does interviews so I don't generally look for them.

As for the rest of you, yes Toriyama has veto power, but much of the material is written by Toyotaro and the Toei crew, not Toriyama, similar to the movies and GT.

I haven't seen any explicit statement that the series IS fully canon (they've gone out of their way to not say so one way or the other, near as I can tell) but there are quite a few things that contradict existing material.

Those contradictions can be retcons, of course, but they could also just be inconsistencies born of a largely different creative staff and Toriyama's tendency to forget basic stuff (like that Super Saiyan 2 was a thing).

[Rater202]

The basic story is written by Toriyama--Toei's writers and Toyotaro then go off from that.

(also, the movies Battle of Gods and Ressurection F were explicitly stated to be in the main continuity and were both written by Toriyama, as is the upcoming Dragon Ball Super Movie.)

Toriyama has significantly more control over Super than he had over anything short of the Original Manga.

[Reddish Mage]

Those contradictions can be retcons, of course, but they could also just be inconsistencies born of a largely different creative staff and Toriyama's tendency to forget basic stuff (like that Super Saiyan 2 was a thing).

Again, do you have a point with any of this? What is the purpose of saying “canon” doesn’t include Super?

[Lemmy]

By Death Battle logic, every single one-shot ability counts, so Goku could be immune to bullets simply because that's what's shown once thousanda of episodes ago...

BTW, the laser is called a "cheap trick" because it's used in an underhanded way. Even if it is "just a common laser", it's the "common laser" of a civilization with the means to create house-exploding blasters, bio-energy detectors, regeneration chambers, flying chairs, super-advanced space ships.and cyborg bodies more powerful than Freeza.

Also, it's shown that characters can intentionally weaken themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean they do so when sleeping... As seen by Goku, Roshi and others being attacked while sleeping and juast being annoyed by it (usually for comedic effect).

EDIT: Oh! And also by Goku and Gohan spending months sleeping as Super-Saiyans.

Characters are seemingly capable of choosing how powered up (or down) their "default" state is.

[deuterio12]

BTW, the laser is called a "cheap trick" because it's used in an underhanded way. Even if it is "just a common laser", it's the "common laser" of a civilization with the means to create house-exploding blasters, bio-energy detectors, regeneration chambers, flying chairs, super-advanced space ships.and cyborg bodies more powerful than Freeza.

Indeed. A "common laser" by our standards can't even pierce normal human skin. But Frieza's army can mass-produce space ships barely bigger than a person that can make multiple travels accross the galaxy with no need to refuel (while we need giant rockets that can only take off once and can barely carry people to our moon in a good day). A "common laser" by their standards would be crazy powerful by human standards.

Even then it took Frieza's skills to notice the moment that Goku's guard is down.

[Lemmy]

So... When does the next Death Battle come out? It's so uninteresting I want to skip it and see what comes next.

Lately, it feels like maybe 50% of DB matches are worth watching...

[Reddish Mage]

What's uninteresting about a bandicoot going up against a dragon? My money is on the bandicoot...

Videogames characters are interested in that they are analyzed in a manner different from comic characters. In the sense that DB goes about it exactly as if the characters were comic characters. They don't treat game mechanics as canon abilities. They read the abilities appearing as if there was a comic or animation showing the abilities in a less gamey setting. Nearly all the videogame characters they have analyzed, though, have had animation and/or comics. I'm not sure if all they have here are cut-scenes. This was true for Shovel Knight (who didn't even have much in terms of cut-scenes) and he lost to Scrooge.

[Mato]

As for the rest of you, yes Toriyama has veto power, but much of the material is written by Toyotaro and the Toei crew, not Toriyama, similar to the movies and GT.

Toriyama doesn't even have the power to veto anything. You can turn up hundreds of articles with a simple google search over how Toriyama never wanted Vegito to appear in Super and he still did. Here is some comments from one of the interviews where Toriyama embraces Toyotaro's changes and says they are better than his.

Toyotarō-sensei, do you add in your own ideas as you turn Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft into a finished manga?
Toyotarō: That’s right. Ultimately things need to head towards the conclusion indicated by Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft, but during that process I want to give various characters things to do. Vegeta being stubborn shows off the appeal of his character, and makes the story more exciting. And of course I want to make Trunks look cool, and even Gowasu… basically I want each character to get the chance to shine. At times like that I depart slightly from the script, but I guess you could say I’m faithful to its essence.
Toriyama: I welcome it! After all, you know far more about Dragon Ball than I do (laughs).
Toyotarō: Well, my goal is to be the No. 1 fan (laughs). Still, it’s not just about my desire to give various characters a chance to shine; there are also times when this sort of thing is necessary to arrive at the goal you’ve indicated, Toriyama-sensei. For instance, if the goal is for Goku to have a direct showdown with Zamasu1 at the end, I can’t simply have Goku reach that point in peak condition. There needs to be various twists and turns before the two can face off against each other. This time around in the “Future Trunks arc”, there were many such twists and turns that I created… though I was a bit uncertain about them…
Toriyama: No, it’s better that way! I think it’s better to let your individuality as an author shine through, rather than just follow the path I set down for you. It would be unbalanced if it were all just my ideas, so it’s better like this.
Toyotarō: While I tried not to take things too far afield, I certainly did get to use many of my own ideas at points. Like thinking “wouldn’t it be interesting if Trunks trained in the Kaiōshin Realm, and had healing powers?” (laughs)
Toriyama: It’s definitely better that way.
Super Saiyan God Vegeta likewise only appeared in the manga version.
Toriyama: I supervised that. I remember (laughs). It was fun to see Toyotarō-sensei‘s ideas start coming out more and more.

There is also an overall progression of things. Like by the next arc Toyotaro gets full credit in the creation of several characters including about half of the Gods of Destruction. The entire thing is a PR campaign to slowly publically introduce Toyotaro to the fan base based on his successions with the story. Toriyama even joked about this.

So far Dragon Ball Super has followed Toriyama-sensei‘s plot, but I think it might be interesting for Toyotarō-sensei to become more involved with the story-writing process from here on out!
Toriyama: Good idea!! I bet it’ll make it more interesting to include Toyotarō-sensei‘s original ideas.
Toyotarō: T-That’s so much pressure… (sweat). But I think it’ll be really cool to help Dragon Ball someday reach its final chapter.
Toriyama: Oh, that’s good! People will go “Wow, Toriyama-sensei planned it all out from the beginning!” and I’ll look really cool (laughs).

And it's not really a big deal. Unless you're trying to claim one media media isn't canon and another one is. Which also explains why this has to come up every page or so.

[Rynjin]

I think that's more referring to the manga, which IIRC Toyotaro has almost complete control over (I haven't read it, but people have said it's different and better in quite a few ways than the anime).

The canonicity I feel is important to the discussion of character capabilities in a Vs setting, which is why I brought it up. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the idea of Ki powered people having an exploitable weakness in the form of letting their guard down, and that characters like Master Roshi that fell behind a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago get a chance to shine again, but both things outright contradict story and setting elements set up decades before.

[Reddish Mage]

I think that's more referring to the manga, which IIRC Toyotaro has almost complete control over (I haven't read it, but people have said it's different and better in quite a few ways than the anime).

The canonicity I feel is important to the discussion of character capabilities in a Vs setting, which is why I brought it up. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the idea of Ki powered people having an exploitable weakness in the form of letting their guard down, and that characters like Master Roshi that fell behind a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago get a chance to shine again, but both things outright contradict story and setting elements set up decades before.

Note if you take away Super you also take away all the god forms.

However Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z have shown Goku and other characters to be susceptible to sneak attack and other tricks.

Overall this should just make Goku easier to defeat for sneaky magic super-ninjas.

Also your definition of “canon” is odd. This Official material coming from the copyright holders with the original author’s blessing and his enthusiastic promotion (with no one saying its not canon). They are allowing the whole world to see it as continuing the story (and also they say things like “continuing the story”)...and then its also widely accepted by the community as continuing the story.

If this isn’t something that’s canon for a death battle than you are potentially limiting a lot of characters put up in ways that even their own fandom wouldn’t recognize. What’s the point in a fight when its made a highly technical battle between two characters who only a few nerds understand the material being employed.

[Rynjin]

Note if you take away Super you also take away all the god forms.

Not quite; Battle of Gods and Resurrection F (the movies) were explicitly called canon before they came out.

Ultra Instinct would be out though, true.

[Reddish Mage]

Not quite; Battle of Gods and Resurrection F (the movies) were explicitly called canon before they came out.

Ultra Instinct would be out though, true.

Again this take on what’s “canon” is quite perverse.

There is no rule of literature that only the stuff that is 100% by the original author is canon or the things officially labeled with the word “canon.” Nor has the rule been explicitly made by Akira or Toei. Besides, Super has been given all the words and expressions by both as an official continuation of the DragonBall story.

On another note, I came upon this clearing out my inbox.

Goku vs Thanos, who wins?

I would say Thanos clearly wins this one as a "Galaxy+ buster" even without the infinity gauntlet (which to be fair, isn't something he can pull without a special storyline).

However, this relies on the point that most DB movies aren't canon or see this video which refutes that Broly destroyed the galaxy showing video clips of the galaxy still around.

Of course, the way Quora says this fight goes down is most amusing.

[Lemmy]

Again this take on what’s “canon” is quite perverse.

There is no rule of literature that only the stuff that is 100% by the original author is canon or the things officially labeled with the word “canon.” Nor has the rule been explicitly made by Akira or Toei. Besides, Super has been given all the words and expressions by both as an official continuation of the DragonBall story.

On another note, I came upon this clearing out my inbox.

Goku vs Thanos, who wins?

I would say Thanos clearly wins this one as a "Galaxy+ buster" even without the infinity gauntlet (which to be fair, isn't something he can pull without a special storyline).

However, this relies on the point that most DB movies aren't canon or see this video which refutes that Broly destroyed the galaxy showing video clips of the galaxy still around.

Of course, the way Quora says this fight goes down is most amusing.

Riiiiight... And then we have pictures of Spider-man beating Thanos.

Spoiler: Spoilered for size

Show

Notice that in the second one, he cant avoid or block the attack even after predicting it...

I guess Spider-man is stronger than Goku (and therefore, stronger than Superman! )

[Reddish Mage]

All I see is Spiderman hitting Thanos. Thanos obviously let himself get hit over there because Spiderman is such an insignificant thing, or maybe he was hoping that Spiderman would break his arm against Thanos's face.

Anyway this is how "that time Spiderman beat Thanos" actually goes down.

So it really took the combined might of the Avengers and a temporarily revived Adam Warlock to take down Thanos, but Spiderman got a good punch in.

[Lemmy]

All I see is Spiderman hitting Thanos. Thanos obviously let himself get hit over there because Spiderman is such an insignificant thing, or maybe he was hoping that Spiderman would break his arm against Thanos's face.

Anyway this is how "that time Spiderman beat Thanos" actually goes down.

So it really took the combined might of the Avengers and a temporarily revived Adam Warlock to take down Thanos, but Spiderman got a good punch in.

Yup. Got a good punch in... Something he can't (or shouldn't be able to do) on Superman or Goku, given the speed and reflexes displayed by those two.

[Rater202]

I'm sorry, are we back on Goku versus Superman again?

Even I'm sick of that.

Though if we're going on Death Battle's habit of taking multiple versions and interpretations of a character and forming a composite to have them at the best, then "canon" is meaningless as you'd have to take everything--Filler, Videogames, Movies, Super, GT, everything to make a Composite Goku.

[tonberrian]

Composite Goku vs the Composite Superman!

[Reddish Mage]

I'm sorry, are we back on Goku versus Superman again?

Even I'm sick of that.

Though if we're going on Death Battle's habit of taking multiple versions and interpretations of a character and forming a composite to have them at the best, then "canon" is meaningless as you'd have to take everything--Filler, Videogames, Movies, Super, GT, everything to make a Composite Goku.

The rule is "all official material that does not contradict canon," I think they've used the term "continuity" interchangeably if that means anything.

That leaves room for what's "official material" (does an authorized appearance in a soap ad or a cross-over appearance count). Theres also the question of what's really "contradicting" canon.

Speaking of rules, Thread rule 3 (it was there at the beginning) states that every conversation eventually becomes an reargument about Goku vs Superman. The only question is whether its Lemmy's fault for making the joke, Rater's fault for taking it seriously, or me by mentioning it a third time and thus making it officially a thing...or is this going to be a future thing when someone actually starts arguing Goku vs Superman.

Right now, I'm more interested in how Thanos would actually stack up as a Death Battle opponent.