Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Rater202]

Then the guy is saying supes can survive atomization. Which is more stupid.

Okay, you're talking about the animated Movie, yes?

Devonix seems to be talking about the comic book storyline.

I don't think Superman was atomized at the end of the story.

[deuterio12]

It isn't about disliking, it's about facts. Fact is, you Can Not fly to New Genesis or Apokolips. Period. It's like saying I can board a ship today and sail to marvel 616 earth.

Nobody said they just flew. One scene Doomsday is boarding the ship, another scene it is right in Apokolips. It coud've just used a boomtube or analogue in between. By definition space ships need some plebonium for viable space travel otherwise going between stars would take hundreds of years in average even at the speed of light.

Besides supes himself just flew to New Genesis during the Godwave events.

[Devonix]

Then the guy is saying supes can survive atomization. Which is more stupid.


It isn't about disliking, it's about facts. Fact is, you Can Not fly to New Genesis or Apokolips. Period. It's like saying I can board a ship today and sail to marvel 616 earth.


And why the Hell am I defending Supes? I hate that guy.

Liking or disliking a story should never factor into explaining it. I defend plenty of things I hate.

And as he described it he wasn't being atomized. That's just what the characters assumed was happening. He was simply undergoing a change due to the over abundance of energy.

And yeah I'm only talking about the comic. The scene with him seeing his father's death and interacting with his decendants wasn't in the movie

[Rater202]

And yeah I'm only talking about the comic. The scene with him seeing his father's death and interacting with his decendants wasn't in the movie

Okay, so here's the issue: HD was specifically mentioning the movie when the topic came up, and that was in the context of an excessive sundip being lethal in comparison to super-novas.

[Lemmy]

@ Lemmy

The highest recorded PL for Goku is in the Frieza saga after he came out of the healing tank, with 3,000,000 in his normal form and 150,000 in his Super Saiyan Form.

I meant onscreen. After Ginyu is defeated, there are no more scouters around, IIRC. Freeza does claim to have 1000000 bp in his 2nd form, but that's the last time I can remember anyone even mentioning PL numbers.

[HolyDraconus]

Okay, so here's the issue: HD was specifically mentioning the movie when the topic came up, and that was in the context of an excessive sundip being lethal in comparison to super-novas.

Bingo! I wasn't reading comics back when but the dc (and marvel) animated movies are usually good.... And surprisingly profanity is more frequent than conveyed in most news outlets

[Devonix]

Bingo! I wasn't reading comics back when but the dc (and marvel) animated movies are usually good.... And surprisingly profanity is more frequent than conveyed in most news outlets

Ok I thought I made it clear that I was talking about the comics. Since Superman 1000000 doesn't exist in the movies.

[Reddish Mage]

of a Blackhole or escape its event horizon is really more of a testimateto his abillity to resistor ignore gravity than to his durability.

What of the radiation of a Blackhole, or how it breaks down all of time and space around it (actually Superman has shown an ability to ignore changes to time and space on occasion). Black holes are incredibly exotic environments with lots of ways to kill someone rather than just its gravitational pull.

Also, Superman has held a singularity in his hand. A singularity is also “infinitely dense” (although its mass is finite) and so we again have a lifting feat with “infinite” in it.

By the way, I’m perfectly fine with the direction the thread has gone. Discussing Superman’s (or others) mind-boggling powers and just how absurd they are and the meaning of that absurdity in a Death Battle is part of the whole purpose of the thread.

I take the position that when it says a fighter has an absurd ability they should roll with it, but not take the physical consequences much farther than the comic does. The characters should ideally fight and feel as much like they do in the source material as possible.

Maybe you could derive from the above that Superman should generate powerful sonic booms or other deadly forces when he moves as fast as he does, instead of just showing him keeping up with the Flash or something. Or Superman’s great planet-busting strength suggests a punch from him should cause large explosions, but we know it doesn’t do things like that because that’s not how the punches work in the comics.

[Rater202]

Also, Superman has held a singularity in his hand. A singularity is also “infinitely dense” (although its mass is finite) and so we again have a lifting feat with “infinite” in it.

If it's incident I'm thinking of, that singularity he held had the same mass as a speck of dust--the story greatly exaggerated what a black hole of that mass could do and the risk it possed.

For context, a black hole with the mass of the earth would have an event horizon of 9 millimeters. A stack of 9 dimes across.

The smaller a black hole is, the less likely it is to absorb particles, the more of its radiation it lets out, and the more of its mass it loses. One with the mass of a speck of dust would be... I'm not quite sure howto describe how unlikely it would be to do any damage before it basically ceased to exist.

[Knaight]

But, but......... but. What else are we supposed to do? Its not the like the fights have any integrity or relevance when it comes to actually deciding fights anymore.

They never had any relevance when it comes to actually deciding fights, because the only way these fights can reach "actually decided" is through group consensus of all interested. This isn't a matter of trying to discover an actual answer that actually exists. This is a matter of a clash of opinions, and while DB's has an outsized influence due to their viewership that's a far cry from having any relevance to deciding fights when they can't be decided.

With that said, "deciding" being a matter of consensus does create a condition where they have limited relevance in a restricted group among which consensus can be more easily reached. At this point, your statement basically just says that in restricted groups including you that consensus is reduced, because you dislike their work. This is reasonable, but it's a vastly more limited claim.

As for the question of integrity, they've established a standard, explicitly said what it was, and seem to do their best to stick to it. That they come up with answers that others disagree with doesn't infringe on this at all. Neither do their blatant mathematical errors, a feature which has existed from the beginning and which would have a deleterious impact only on their relevance anyways, and even then only in that restricted space.

[Kato]

... How about this : anyone who is only here to talk about "those two"... Go make your own thread, or your own site, so you don't get bogged down by people who are tired of the topic..

Black Canary has, at at least one point in Canon, been acknowledged as the best martial artist in the DCU, beating out the likes of Batman, Deathstroke, and others.

Wait, à DC writer admitted Bats is not the best at something? I'm going to assume he got kicked out after that?

That said.. I guess Natasha's willingness to use guns might be the deciding factor here, but I'm not quite sure how powerful / lethal Canary's cry can be or if she has some other fancy feats. But a sniper rifle kind of is hard to beat.

[BWR]

But a sniper rifle kind of is hard to beat.

Which is why it is the weapon of choice for taking out non-bullet proof supers, with a high rate of success and widespread popularity in both DC and Marvel.

[Ibrinar]

What of the radiation of a Blackhole, or how it breaks down all of time and space around it (actually Superman has shown an ability to ignore changes to time and space on occasion). Black holes are incredibly exotic environments with lots of ways to kill someone rather than just its gravitational pull.

Also, Superman has held a singularity in his hand. A singularity is also “infinitely dense” (although its mass is finite) and so we again have a lifting feat with “infinite” in it.

Infinite density of zero volume is not a lifting feat, holding a blackhole in your hand is another kind of feat since it is not something you can just grab (though wasn't he just holding something containing a blackhole?) but what possible relevance does it density have to lifting when we know its mass? None really. And I think he holds a blackhole which has an finite average density since it has a size, the singularity is part of the blackhole but he isn't directly holding the singularity. (Since it is a tiny one it would be pretty dense big ones can have really low average densities.)
(Really it is as much an infinite lifting feat as taking a step is an infinite movement feat because of zenos paradox.) (Side note whether singularities are actually zero volume = infinite densities is questionable. They might be just mathematical artifacts and not real. Well the link is certain they aren't but I don't know enough to know whether that is the consensus.)

Anyway making physic based extrapolations based on writers poor understanding of physics and numbers leads to conclusions that aren't even a good indicator to who wins or how much they struggle in fights we actually see in their own stories so why would you use them as indicator who would win in fights with characters of other settings? But I guess same with taking big feats and ignoring low feats that is because vs discussions often work more like bragging contests.

[Lemmy]

Wait, à DC writer admitted Bats is not the best at something? I'm going to assume he got kicked out after that?

The title of "best martial artist in DC universe" hasn't had a clear winner in ages... It's most often given to Shiva, Bronze Tiger and *maybe* Catman... Batman and Black Canary are always cited to be somewhere within ths Top 5 or at least Top 10 range, but they're usually not said to be #1... Sometimes, they're given some pseudo-justification, though, like "Batman can't beat Shiva because he isn't willing to kill" or something like that...

Sadly, martial arts villains/anti-heroes tend to suffer of Worf-effect-syndrome.

[Maryring]

If I knew what the most immortal thing in the world of fiction was it still would be easier to kill than this topic.. Actually, I wish I could come up with something comparable so I could propose a Death Battle between the two.. As is, I welcome anything that deters people from thinking about it. Maybe we could just ban both names...

That said, light weight DB suggestion : Black Widow vs Black Canary? Because... You know, both have black in their code name? (and totally nothing else)

A deathbattle between two of the most hard to kill creatures in fiction?

How about The Phoenix Force from Marvel vs Mokou/Eirin/Kaguya from Touhou. All three have the same brand of immortality (specifically, death removed from their being at a conceptual level) though Mokou would probably be the best since her aesthetic borrows a lot from the Phoenix.

As for the two blacks. As long as they both beat Rebecca Black I don't care.

But seriously, I think I'll give it to Canary, since these fights tend to assume an equal awareness of one another at the start, and so Natasha won't be able to snipe Canary. At which point, even if their martial arts skill are even (hard to determine which is stronger), Canary has the advantage of her Canary Scream, which will give her the edge she needs to win.

[Devonix]

... How about this : anyone who is only here to talk about "those two"... Go make your own thread, or your own site, so you don't get bogged down by people who are tired of the topic..



Wait, à DC writer admitted Bats is not the best at something? I'm going to assume he got kicked out after that?

That said.. I guess Natasha's willingness to use guns might be the deciding factor here, but I'm not quite sure how powerful / lethal Canary's cry can be or if she has some other fancy feats. But a sniper rifle kind of is hard to beat.

In universe Batman isn't really considered " The Best " at anything, except perhaps Strategy and even that's kinda up in the air. He's a Jack of all trades, character. Really good at a lot of things but not the best in his field at any of them.

Hell before Nu52 he wasn't in universe the world's greatest detective. That title actually went to Ralph Dibney, Dectective Chimp, or Tim Drake.

[Kato]

Sorry, I'm afraid my knowledge on DC is too much based on a handful of popular comics, cartoons, movies and mostly "things people say on the internet". And then "Batman is the best at everything " is a common mistake, I hope.

Speaking of Batman.. How about a fight with Link? Two essentially human (mostly) characters with a vast arsenal of weapons? I guess both have their superhuman moments but in general it seems pretty fair.

[Devonix]

Sorry, I'm afraid my knowledge on DC is too much based on a handful of popular comics, cartoons, movies and mostly "things people say on the internet". And then "Batman is the best at everything " is a common mistake, I hope.

Speaking of Batman.. How about a fight with Link? Two essentially human (mostly) characters with a vast arsenal of weapons? I guess both have their superhuman moments but in general it seems pretty fair.

There is the Batmeme of him being the best at everything, but in universe it usually isn't true. He routinely gets his ass kicked and shown up by other people.

[Keltest]

Sorry, I'm afraid my knowledge on DC is too much based on a handful of popular comics, cartoons, movies and mostly "things people say on the internet". And then "Batman is the best at everything " is a common mistake, I hope.

Speaking of Batman.. How about a fight with Link? Two essentially human (mostly) characters with a vast arsenal of weapons? I guess both have their superhuman moments but in general it seems pretty fair.

I would put my money on batman just because he's good at getting the jump on people and Link is not. If they just sat there trading blows, Link would win, but Batman doesn't have to play by that rule.

[zimmerwald1915]

I would put my money on batman just because he's good at getting the jump on people and Link is not.

Unless you give him a barrel. But then, a barrel is not part of Link's usual arsenal.

[Reddish Mage]

They never had any relevance when it comes to actually deciding fights, because the only way these fights can reach "actually decided" is through group consensus of all interested. This isn't a matter of trying to discover an actual answer that actually exists. This is a matter of a clash of opinions, and while DB's has an outsized influence due to their viewership that's a far cry from having any relevance to deciding fights when they can't be decided.

With that said, "deciding" being a matter of consensus does create a condition where they have limited relevance in a restricted group among which consensus can be more easily reached. At this point, your statement basically just says that in restricted groups including you that consensus is reduced, because you dislike their work. This is reasonable, but it's a vastly more limited claim.

Although I think you are trying to defend Death Battle here I think there's problems with your basis. First, you use the term "consensus" which suggests broad agreement. This doesn't seem to happen in too many characters. Maybe some fights are "curb stomps" and nearly everyone accepts the winner, but a lot of fights are more controversial.

The question comes down to one to meaning. Consensus may have a lot to do with how words get their meaning, but I think there is some value to those who do a "close reading" of the text and find things others miss. In the texts there often seems to be indications of the combat abilities of these characters. Indeed, the combat powers are often incredible. Why can't one simply extrapolate from the text that this character would win a hypothetical fight? Especially as we have such wide differences between some characters (Thor vs. Raiden being an example).

When I say Thor beats Raiden, do I mean a wide variety of people agree with me, or do I simply mean, if you read the Thor comics, and you look at Raiden's abilities, Thor is on a completely different level than Raiden in every way.

Death Battle is not just giving a well worked out opinion to add to a general consensus, they are trying to answer the question. What's to say its not an objective answer and that those who disagree are having an objective disagreement?

As for the question of integrity, they've established a standard, explicitly said what it was, and seem to do their best to stick to it. That they come up with answers that others disagree with doesn't infringe on this at all.

Agreed.

... How about this : anyone who is only here to talk about "those two"... Go make your own thread, or your own site, so you don't get bogged down by people who are tired of the topic..

only here to talk about one fight? I think you are talking about nobody. However, as long as people are going to bring up that most notorious fight there will be discussion about it.

Wait, à DC writer admitted Bats is not the best at something? I'm going to assume he got kicked out after that?

That said.. I guess Natasha's willingness to use guns might be the deciding factor here, but I'm not quite sure how powerful / lethal Canary's cry can be or if she has some other fancy feats. But a sniper rifle kind of is hard to beat.

I think Batman at his best is the best at a lot of things, or so greatly outmatches other supers that it seems like that.

I like the idea of guns being the deciding factor in a Death Battle. This weapon tends to get very little attention. However, a sniper rifle isn't the proper weapon in a melee. If Natasha gets the drop on Dinah or disappears during the fight...sure. However, an ordinary handgun would be far easier to use at close range and Dinah isn't just going to stand still and let Natasha properly aim a rifle at her.

A good shot will finish the fight.

Realizing Natasha is probably not faster than the speed of sound, however, if Black Widow doesn't know Black Canary, a surprise Canary Cry can finish the fight just the same.

I move for Double KO. Natasha shoots Dinah, Dinah surprises Natasha with a Canary Cry straight on as she's dying.

Sorry, I'm afraid my knowledge on DC is too much based on a handful of popular comics, cartoons, movies and mostly "things people say on the internet". And then "Batman is the best at everything " is a common mistake, I hope.

Speaking of Batman.. How about a fight with Link? Two essentially human (mostly) characters with a vast arsenal of weapons? I guess both have their superhuman moments but in general it seems pretty fair.

I think there's more to Batman's skills then a couple of memes. He has beaten Superman and the entire Justice League. He has fought Superman villains and won. He punches way above his weight class.

Batman vs Link is interesting. I think it depends on the gear Link has. Link has gear that makes him invincible in some games. However, there's no reason to think Link is as fast as Batman or that Batman cannot surprise Link with an out of nowhere attack.

While Link may be immune to damage, there's a question as to whether Link can harm Batman.

Finally, Batman can use rope and other restraints as well as sleep gas and I don't see Link as having immunity to those sorts of attacks (although Link may be strong enough to get out of most restraints).

There is the Batmeme of him being the best at everything, but in universe it usually isn't true. He routinely gets his ass kicked and shown up by other people.

He also shows up all sorts and kicks the ass of the same people. Overall, Batman is shown to be someone who can make an equal contribution (in combat) on a team including characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Flash.

Batman may lose in most Death Battle analyses, and his skills, abilities and weapons do not, by themselves, equal superpowers. Nevertheless, somehow in the comics Batman can still end up on top.

[Keltest]

He also shows up all sorts and kicks the ass of the same people. Overall, Batman is shown to be someone who can make an equal contribution (in combat) on a team including characters like Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Flash.

Batman may lose in most Death Battle analyses, and his skills, abilities and weapons do not, by themselves, equal superpowers. Nevertheless, somehow in the comics Batman can still end up on top.

One of Batman's greatest strengths is his capacity to learn. If he loses the first fight, he will absolutely come back much more prepared for the rematch. If youre a visible figure, he will research you before he engages you.

[Devonix]

One of Batman's greatest strengths is his capacity to learn. If he loses the first fight, he will absolutely come back much more prepared for the rematch. If youre a visible figure, he will research you before he engages you.

That, and while he's not the best at really anything. He's good enough at so many different things that he can approach a problem from lots of different angles. Except computers. Never trust Batman with anything computer related, he Suuuuucks at it. I don't think anyone in comics gets their stuff hacked as much as Batman does.

[Reddish Mage]

One of Batman's greatest strengths is his capacity to learn. If he loses the first fight, he will absolutely come back much more prepared for the rematch. If youre a visible figure, he will research you before he engages you.

New DBX Season Finale Proposal - Batman resurrection/rematch against all his Death Battle opponents. Now Batman has fought them and knows them. Batman has prep time. Batman wins.

That, and while he's not the best at really anything. He's good enough at so many different things that he can approach a problem from lots of different angles. Except computers. Never trust Batman with anything computer related, he Suuuuucks at it. I don't think anyone in comics gets their stuff hacked as much as Batman does.

You can't say Batman has no computer skills because his stuff gets hacked. Batman is a super-hacker himself and has built the world's most sophisticated computer systems. His stuff gets hacked either because 1. computer systems are inherently hackable or 2. plot requires it.

[Devonix]

New DBX Season Finale Proposal - Batman resurrection/rematch against all his Death Battle opponents. Now Batman has fought them and knows them. Batman has prep time. Batman wins.



You can't say Batman has no computer skills because his stuff gets hacked. Batman is a super-hacker himself and has built the world's most sophisticated computer systems. His stuff gets hacked either because 1. computer systems are inherently hackable or 2. plot requires it.

I'm joking when I say he has no computer skills. But the joke is based on how he gets hacked more than just about any other hero out there.

[Keltest]

I'm joking when I say he has no computer skills. But the joke is based on how he gets hacked more than just about any other hero out there.

How many other heroes use computers to the extent that Batman does? The batcave and bat computer are some of his biggest tools.

[Devonix]

How many other heroes use computers to the extent that Batman does? The batcave and bat computer are some of his biggest tools.

Firstly it's a joke. Second lots of heros use computers as much as he does. Superman, the Fantastic 4, the x men. The birds of pretty. The JSA.

[Reddish Mage]

Firstly it's a joke. Second lots of heros use computers as much as he does. Superman, the Fantastic 4, the x men. The birds of pretty. The JSA.

Considering the Fortress of Solitude is based on alien crystal technology from a dead planet, it gets hacked entirely too often.

[Anteros]

... How about this : anyone who is only here to talk about "those two"... Go make your own thread, or your own site, so you don't get bogged down by people who are tired of the topic..



Wait, à DC writer admitted Bats is not the best at something? I'm going to assume he got kicked out after that?

That said.. I guess Natasha's willingness to use guns might be the deciding factor here, but I'm not quite sure how powerful / lethal Canary's cry can be or if she has some other fancy feats. But a sniper rifle kind of is hard to beat.

I could just as easily propose the opposite. If you're tired of a discussion that you don't like, just extricate yourself from it instead of trying to silence every single person who is talking about something you're not interested in.

[Kato]

I could just as easily propose the opposite. If you're tired of a discussion that you don't like, just extricate yourself from it instead of trying to silence every single person who is talking about something you're not interested in.

Of course you can. And I didn't try to silence anyone but I'm tired of looking through walls of text of repeat arguments that turn in circles and are too often for my taste on the border of turning toxic. This thread should be about the whole show but if the last five pages are mostly about one fight that happened years ago, it's not fulfilling its purpose. And it's not a one time occurrence, it happens every month or so. If I used the General anime thread to talk about One Piece for ten pages, you'd be justified in telling me to make a separate thread because it makes sense. If you want to spend the time arguing I'm not going to stop you by any means, but if you do it in a place where it doesn't get mixed up with other discussions, I really don't see the harm in it for you. And I'm aware it's debatable when it's justified to start a separate thread but considering the amount of content you have already posted, I guess you will easily have two or three more times that for the future.

OK, sorry, I'm rambling. In short : I was not trying to silence anyone, albeit being tired of the discussion. As such, yes, it is also for my convenience but I don't see the problem in making a new thread, considering we do have threads for other topics that also could be included elsewhere but are not because they merit their own thread.
I'm sorry if my tone was wrong and maybe I'm on my own in this but I'd welcome it if this particular discussion happened apart from the general DB discussion. In case it's not obvious, that's not meant to say anyone should not post here talking about other DB related topics.
I'll gladly make the new thread and even link whatever might need linking in case that is the troublesome part. *steam vented *