Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXV

[Vinyadan]

Landsknecht voran!

Also Geld voran, bitte.

[Storm Bringer]

Wait, is that real? Is it an actual Landsknecht song?

I experienced a profound and inexplicable cognitive dissonance while listening to it, until I finally realised why: the tune of the first two verses (not the chorus) of this German mercenary march is remarkably similar - if sped up - to the tune of "In Kamf", which is a Yiddish anarchist hymn. (Here it is from the Klezmatics.) And these two just don't mix, you know? :P

their was a incident during WW1, where several British units were incensed when they heard what sounded a aweful lot like God save the Queen coming form the German lines, and thought they were being mocked. it was explained to them by a more knowledgeable person that the Germans were singing Heil dir im Siegerkranz, a song which used the same basic melody.

[Galloglaich]

Wait, is that real? Is it an actual Landsknecht song?

I experienced a profound and inexplicable cognitive dissonance while listening to it, until I finally realised why: the tune of the first two verses (not the chorus) of this German mercenary march is remarkably similar - if sped up - to the tune of "In Kamf", which is a Yiddish anarchist hymn. (Here it is from the Klezmatics.) And these two just don't mix, you know? :P

That is pretty neat!

You might be surprised to know there were some Jewish Landsknechts. One example. (he was Italian to boot!)

In some towns in the HRE, notably Frankfurt, Jewish people could be citizens and were expected to own arms and armor and fight in the militia basically integtrated with the regular militia ranks. In others Jewish residents or citizens were organized to defend their own quarter / towers. In others they were not allowed to own arms (Strasbourg after the 1350s).

The general rule though was that Jewish people were in a status similar to Priests or women, by default they were protected by the authorities and to assault one would be to violate the peace of the town, the peace of the roads or the peace of the king / duke / bishop (all bad).

However if the Jewish person (or priest or woman) chose to arm themselves they would then forefiet that special legal protection but suffer no other penalty.

It seems that Jewish merchants and travelers did arm themselves as I have found regulations from inns requiring "all jews to turn their throwing axes into the innkeeper for the duration of their stay".

I think those may be hurlbats.

G

[Nargrakhan]

Thinking of a campaign where "electrical devices" no longer work. Around what era would war machines be reduced to? I'm guessing World War 2 level technology?

I was reading about the P-51 Mustang for example, and it doesn't really mention electrical systems outside of the radio and radar. Did such a plane need an alternator for the motor to work?

What about tanks from WW2? Did they have "mandatory" parts that required electricity to function?

[Max_Killjoy]

Thinking of a campaign where "electrical devices" no longer work. Around what era would war machines be reduced to? I'm guessing World War 2 level technology?

I was reading about the P-51 Mustang for example, and it doesn't really mention electrical systems outside of the radio and radar. Did such a plane need an alternator for the motor to work?

What about tanks from WW2? Did they have "mandatory" parts that required electricity to function?

If electricity stops working, everything dies the instant before all matter in the universe flies apart. Poof, no campaign or story over.

That aside, yes, any gasoline engine is going to need electricity for the spark plugs, and while diesels work without electricity they can be a giant chore to start without the electrical glow plugs many of them have now.

Without electricity, you're stuck at steam power and gas lamps.

[Galloglaich]

Also I don't think any version of a P-51 had radar...

[Berenger]

I'd also guess that planes and tanks are hard to make without electricity-powered factories.

[Max_Killjoy]

Also I don't think any version of a P-51 had radar...

Some later P-51s had a tail warning radar with an indicator light and bell to warn of the presence of a plane in an area to the rear of the plane.

Pilots were iffy on it because it added about 400 lbs (IIRC) to the tail and kept going off (for some of the pilots) if used in many sorts of formations.

[Nargrakhan]

If electricity stops working, everything dies the instant before all matter in the universe flies apart. Poof, no campaign or story over.

You most certainly live up to your name.

That aside, yes, any gasoline engine is going to need electricity for the spark plugs, and while diesels work without electricity they can be a giant chore to start without the electrical glow plugs many of them have now.

* Wikipedia Spark Plugs *

Hmmm... well damn... that's certainly important, isn't it. LOL

However it doesn't totally ruin my plans. I see it's possible to have a combustion engine without spark plugs or the like (seems Mazda is on the case), but it definitely requires a manufacturing infrastructure that has access to advanced technologies.

I can work with this. Good enough for Star Trek level science at least.

Planet that has plot-tonium induced phenomena that interferes with electrical technology working properly... machinery manufactured offworld to work around the problem are dropped from orbit. Difficult or expensive, so its not done for everyday items.

It's a start I get brainstorm over.

Thanks! This is really helpful. You da Man.

Also I don't think any version of a P-51 had radar...

According to some aircraft restoration forums there was stuff like the AN/APS-13 installed on them.

Not an aircraft buff really, but Wikipedia claims it was around until 1984 with the Dominican Air Force. Third World country of course, but it seems they (and other late users) tried to jury rig radar on them too.

[Brother Oni]

Planet that has plot-tonium induced phenomena that interferes with electrical technology working properly... machinery manufactured offworld to work around the problem are dropped from orbit. Difficult or expensive, so its not done for everyday items.

I think the viability of orbital dropping items intact (as opposed to an inadvertent rod from god) depends very much on the range of the anti-electricity phenomena.

Too high up, I can't see how anything's getting to the surface intact (how were you planning to deploy the parachutes; if it's a manned crew on board, how are they surviving long enough to pull the lever or when to pull the parachutes).
Too low and you still have space/atmosphere fighter/bombers strafing ground targets from the upper atmosphere.

Then there's the issue of it being a one way trip - you can get down, but how are you going to get back up?

Of course you can use Star Trek teleporter-style tech, but that kind of makes a mockery of any military defence, especially when you can't deploy planet-side countermeasures.

As far as I can tell, you essentially have mostly-mechanised WW1 tech at highest (at the time, only American dreadnoughts were using turbo electric engines, while other dreadnoughts were steam turbine), but any aluminium or modern ceramic/composite materials would have to be orbital dropped in.


On a separate note, since people aren't dying the moment they land, the local flora has presumably generated a breathable atmosphere and (I assume) there are animals of sufficient size that have a nervous system, it implies that bioelectricity still functions. Given sufficiently advanced technology, couldn't the relevant inhibited components be substituted or outright replaced by biological versions?

If the phenomena is inhibited by biological tissue, then you end up with the T-800 from The Terminator franchise, where robotic components are encapsulated by a biological layer. It would make warfare more disturbing though - shooting a vehicle would make it bleed.

[Carl]

I think the viability of orbital dropping items intact (as opposed to an inadvertent rod from god) depends very much on the range of the anti-electricity phenomena.

Too high up, I can't see how anything's getting to the surface intact (how were you planning to deploy the parachutes; if it's a manned crew on board, how are they surviving long enough to pull the lever or when to pull the parachutes).
Too low and you still have space/atmosphere fighter/bombers strafing ground targets from the upper atmosphere.

Then there's the issue of it being a one way trip - you can get down, but how are you going to get back up?

Of course you can use Star Trek teleporter-style tech, but that kind of makes a mockery of any military defence, especially when you can't deploy planet-side countermeasures.

As far as I can tell, you essentially have mostly-mechanised WW1 tech at highest (at the time, only American dreadnoughts were using turbo electric engines, while other dreadnoughts were steam turbine), but any aluminium or modern ceramic/composite materials would have to be orbital dropped in.


On a separate note, since people aren't dying the moment they land, the local flora has presumably generated a breathable atmosphere and (I assume) there are animals of sufficient size that have a nervous system, it implies that bioelectricity still functions. Given sufficiently advanced technology, couldn't the relevant inhibited components be substituted or outright replaced by biological versions?

If the phenomena is inhibited by biological tissue, then you end up with the T-800 from The Terminator franchise, where robotic components are encapsulated by a biological layer. It would make warfare more disturbing though - shooting a vehicle would make it bleed.

Potentially bypassable if it works similarly to EMP's, though that carries a host of other issues (touching ungrounded ferrous material is gonna get you electrocuted as that kind of standing field will induce a charge in the metal).

[Nargrakhan]

I think the viability of orbital dropping items intact (as opposed to an inadvertent rod from god) depends very much on the range of the anti-electricity phenomena.

Too high up, I can't see how anything's getting to the surface intact (how were you planning to deploy the parachutes; if it's a manned crew on board, how are they surviving long enough to pull the lever or when to pull the parachutes).
Too low and you still have space/atmosphere fighter/bombers strafing ground targets from the upper atmosphere.

Strong at planetary surface and gradually weakens further out. Strong enough to make space launch impossible, but eventually gives way to allow some sort of orbital satellite network or have a spaceship approach to drop things if they're very careful and very heavily shielded (still super dangerous with such precautions though). Maybe things are delivered by "disposable one way" spacecraft a bit outside planetary orbit if they're really scared of getting caught in the field.

Then there's the issue of it being a one way trip - you can get down, but how are you going to get back up?

I'm thinking of making it a prison world. People aren't expected to leave it. Prisoners are dropped on the planet and occasionally supplies too. Probably some entertainment network or private prison firm has orbital satellites that records what's going on the surface for broadcast. Machines and weapons not requiring electronics are dropped to the surface because it spices things up. Maybe equipment is dropped for human rights reasons. Not everyone who does the orbital drops are concerned if the people/contents survive, so sometimes they don't.

Player Characters are dropped on the planet. If they're innocent or not depends on the player. Leaving the planet isn't really the end goal... being rulers of a Mad Max style city-state would probably be the endgame.

Of course you can use Star Trek teleporter-style tech, but that kind of makes a mockery of any military defence, especially when you can't deploy planet-side countermeasures.

I'm going with an idea that the galaxy is at a Star Trek or Star Wars level of technology, but not the planet itself. Some people will remember or know about advance technology, but they're locked to non-electronics. The best stuff is restricted to whatever off world material literally drops from the sky. Battles between societies occur over such supplies or additional manpower: even when no one knows what's incoming until they reach or find it.

[Brother Oni]

I'm thinking of making it a prison world. People aren't expected to leave it. Prisoners are dropped on the planet and occasionally supplies too. Probably some entertainment network or private prison firm has orbital satellites that records what's going on the surface for broadcast. Machines and weapons not requiring electronics are dropped to the surface because it spices things up. Maybe equipment is dropped for human rights reasons. Not everyone who does the orbital drops are concerned if the people/contents survive, so sometimes they don't.

Player Characters are dropped on the planet. If they're innocent or not depends on the player. Leaving the planet isn't really the end goal... being rulers of a Mad Max style city-state would probably be the endgame.

That actually changes things a lot. Scaled up Apollo Command Modules for orbital dropping inmates and off-world supplies in. Inmates get told 'when the electric light goes out, pull this lever to deploy parachutes' then get sealed inside the module which gets dropped out of the prison ship on a (hopefully) viable re-entry vector.

If the prisoners run out of air before they make planetfall, meh.
If the vector is too shallow and the module ends up in an orbit, meh.
If the vector is too deep and the module burns up during re-entry, meh.
If the onboard situation falls apart and the prisoners are too busy fighting/killing/raping each other to pull the parachute and they pancake into the ground, meh.
If the parachute doesn't open properly (either it jams, fails to open the module is tumbling, etc) and they pancake, meh.
If the doors are jammed shut by the impact and the prisoners suffocate/starve to death inside the module, meh.
If they don't land in a viable spot (half way up a mountain, in the middle of an ocean) and they all die from exposure/drown, meh.

And if they somehow survive all that and don't murder each other while exiting, you don't have to worry about the resupply as they're prisoners and are expected to fend for themselves!

Wow, not valuing human life or the integrity of the components is such a refreshing change.

I'm going with an idea that the galaxy is at a Star Trek or Star Wars level of technology, but not the planet itself. Some people will remember or know about advance technology, but they're locked to non-electronics. The best stuff is restricted to whatever off world material literally drops from the sky. Battles between societies occur over such supplies or additional manpower: even when no one knows what's incoming until they reach or find it.

Depending on the terrain and whether they can co-opt any local wildlife as draft animals or cavalry, you can get a real mish-mash of technologies and tactics.

Imagine bicycle riding dragoons riding around the battlefield in order to outflank quadraped powered warwagons made from drop pod remnants, fighting for control of one of the few steel bloomeries that are on the planet.
The twist is that because of the advanced technology level, only people with a major history background would know how to re-invent these technologies - as an example, in the real world, we haven't been able to get reproduction crossbows to the same level of performance of medieval crossbows listed in the texts.

I believe that during the Middle Ages, artillery crews were highly prized as the knowledge of operating their machines was in such a short supply. The crew chief was especially valued since he had a working understanding of the arcane art of mathematics and trigonometry.

Edit:
Your comment of people remembering about advanced technology implies that the planet has been used as a prison for multiple generations and that the influx of new people are minimal. If they're getting regular drops of inmates, then the societies that form planetside will be comparatively up to date with galactic affairs; if the planet has been used for multiple generations, then as soon as a defendant learns that they may be sent to the planet, learning up on all primitive technologies would be a very good pre-cautionary measure, possibly artificially inflating the number of valuable people to keep alive.

[Carl]

Honestly the biggest issue i see here is that well, it's supposed to be a prison. A prison needs to actually be a prison, and a prison without wardnes and careful control of the inmates might as well be made of cardboard for all it's long term ability to hold prisoners is. There's a lot of things that are highly impractical to the point of just not being worth it for any normal civilisation without electricity or electrically operated computers. But there's quite a lot of that stuff that is at least theoretically possibble without electricity, it's just without a really, really, really, really pressing need no one's going to go to the trouble of it. But given them enough time and the inmates are going to find a way to smash, blow up, or otherwise do somthing nasty to whatevers stopping electrical tech from working, at which point your all kinds of screwed if anyone down there retains the knowledge necessary to take that newfound ability to use electricity and turn it into a suitable escape vehicle, (and someone will). Sure it's unlikely that they'll succeed every time, and even when they do there may not be a huge number of escapees and they may not often have a huge effect on your empire, but sooner or later there is going to be an escape that does cause huge issues for you, and then your screwed.

An effective prison requires you to be in a position to severely restrict the prisoners ability to act unobserved, coordinate amongst themselves, and access to resources. Because the you can severely limit their possibble options which has serious positive effects on reducing escape chances and severly limits their resources if they do escape and means that you not only know about it almost as soon as they escape, they're escaping into what amounts to enemy territory, all of that severely limits their options and choices.

TLDR: Don't let the lunatics run the asylum or you'll end up like Harley Quinn.

[Max_Killjoy]

All true, but on the other hand the sort of regime we're looking at here is probably short-sighted, stupid, and callous enough to not see that outcome coming.

[Brother Oni]

All true, but on the other hand the sort of regime we're looking at here is probably short-sighted, stupid, and callous enough to not see that outcome coming.

While true, I think the current countermeasures are adequate:

• The planet is blockaded and there's a ring of monitoring satellites - as the company is using the satellite footage as revenue to supplement the cost of running the prison, expect better than normal coverage.
• Anything that remotely looks like it's leaving the surface is likely to get shot down by a Star Trek level countermeasure.
• Assumption of co-operation between the inmates when basic needs aren't being met; in a normal prison, inmates don't typically have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, clean running water or a roof over their heads to protect them from the elements. It's a lot harder to find time to develop an escape route when you're too busy trying to survive at a hand to mouth subsistence farming level.
• There's nothing forcing them to stay together - there's a whole planet to wander around and presumably the orbital drops are randomly dispersed around the planet (if they weren't then you'd get settlements developing at regular drop sites).
• Suppose you do sort out the supply issue and find time to start researching the plot-onium, there's a planet full of convicted felons that are more than willing to take your food security (at the very least) for themselves.
• Suppose you figure out a way to disable the plot-onium, you'll still need to develop a working space craft (sensors, propulsion, life support, crew space etc) that can get out of a gravity well, survive being shot at by a superior force, then reach FTL speeds with a correct heading.
• You'll have to do all this with a WW1 tech level at best and without the industrial base of a nation.
• Assuming they're dropping inmates of mixed genders and after multiple generations, small nations that can potentially thrive and start developing a suitable tech base will develop, at which point they'll just get bombarded from orbit by the prison company, taking them back to square 1.
• With Star Trek level tech, their sensors can detect significant population densities so you can't hide underground - even if the plot-onium interferes with their sensors and you can build up people, there's only so much farming you can do without access to sunlight and hence observation from orbit.

While I agree the inmates could take control of the asylum, it's very difficult to do so, especially with the tech level disparity.

Edit: On second thoughts, this could be a interesting plot thread for the game - the PCs are infiltrators with the overall goal of getting plot-onium samples off planet so that their scientists can reverse-engineer it for use against the Evil Empire™. They've managed to sneak down a small scale biological computer with a version of wikipedia and tech schematics inside one of the players, so their immediate goal after survival is to get it out of the player without killing them, then build up the tech necessary to investigate the plot-onium then launch it off planet, or get samples of it off planet via a stealth rocket or something.

As they advance through the steps required to secure a power base (eg form a nation) they have to juggle the politics of surviving with developing the necessary tech base. Bonus points if it's a lineage style game with the players taking control of their PCs' descendants as it takes years or decades to do complete their actions.

It sounds impossible, but doing the impossible is the point of a heroic RPG.

[Carl]

While true, I think the current countermeasures are adequate:

• The planet is blockaded and there's a ring of monitoring satellites - as the company is using the satellite footage as revenue to supplement the cost of running the prison, expect better than normal coverage.
• Anything that remotely looks like it's leaving the surface is likely to get shot down by a Star Trek level countermeasure.
• Assumption of co-operation between the inmates when basic needs aren't being met; in a normal prison, inmates don't typically have to worry about where their next meal is coming from, clean running water or a roof over their heads to protect them from the elements. It's a lot harder to find time to develop an escape route when you're too busy trying to survive at a hand to mouth subsistence farming level.
• There's nothing forcing them to stay together - there's a whole planet to wander around and presumably the orbital drops are randomly dispersed around the planet (if they weren't then you'd get settlements developing at regular drop sites).
• Suppose you do sort out the supply issue and find time to start researching the plot-onium, there's a planet full of convicted felons that are more than willing to take your food security (at the very least) for themselves.
• Suppose you figure out a way to disable the plot-onium, you'll still need to develop a working space craft (sensors, propulsion, life support, crew space etc) that can get out of a gravity well, survive being shot at by a superior force, then reach FTL speeds with a correct heading.
• You'll have to do all this with a WW1 tech level at best and without the industrial base of a nation.
• Assuming they're dropping inmates of mixed genders and after multiple generations, small nations that can potentially thrive and start developing a suitable tech base will develop, at which point they'll just get bombarded from orbit by the prison company, taking them back to square 1.
• With Star Trek level tech, their sensors can detect significant population densities so you can't hide underground - even if the plot-onium interferes with their sensors and you can build up people, there's only so much farming you can do without access to sunlight and hence observation from orbit.

While I agree the inmates could take control of the asylum, it's very difficult to do so, especially with the tech level disparity.

Edit: On second thoughts, this could be a interesting plot thread for the game - the PCs are infiltrators with the overall goal of getting plot-onium samples off planet so that their scientists can reverse-engineer it for use against the Evil Empire™. They've managed to sneak down a small scale biological computer with a version of wikipedia and tech schematics inside one of the players, so their immediate goal after survival is to get it out of the player without killing them, then build up the tech necessary to investigate the plot-onium then launch it off planet, or get samples of it off planet via a stealth rocket or something.

As they advance through the steps required to secure a power base (eg form a nation) they have to juggle the politics of surviving with developing the necessary tech base. Bonus points if it's a lineage style game with the players taking control of their PCs' descendants as it takes years or decades to do complete their actions.

It sounds impossible, but doing the impossible is the point of a heroic RPG.

The problem with that is that at the rate any modestly sized or larger steller empire is going to be dumping even just hardcore criminals down there your going to have decent nation states start cropping up real fast, you'd be bombing them every few decades, which quite apart from probably rendering the planet completely uninhabitable real fast ends up just being a delayed form of capital punishment, and is going to be a hell of a lot more resource intensive than maintaining an actual prison. Keepin the necessary level of firepower on hand has some serious costs.

I think your also seriously underestimating the degree of cooperation that would happen, they may not be very nice as a rule, but they're still human beings effectively trapped in hellish conditions against their will. The tendency for humans to band together in those situations is pretty strong, and it only takes one group to get started and it will grow and quickly. There's a reason historically the fiction style carry everything on their backs and steal everything they need disorganised barbarians Almost never seriously threatened a healthy nation state. An organised force able to coordinate it;s actions on both a strategic and tactical scale can seriously outfight a more disorganised opponent thats les able to plan ahead.

Also fro the OP's question it dosen't sound like said empire is trying to stop tech advances.

[Beleriphon]

TLDR: Don't let the lunatics run the asylum or you'll end up like Harley Quinn.

I rather think that's the point of the game being proposed. Also, read current Harley comics, she runs of Mayor of New York... maybe that says something about New York City.

[VoxRationis]

But given them enough time and the inmates are going to find a way to smash, blow up, or otherwise do somthing nasty to whatevers stopping electrical tech from working, at which point your all kinds of screwed if anyone down there retains the knowledge necessary to take that newfound ability to use electricity and turn it into a suitable escape vehicle, (and someone will).

I'm pretty certain that the overwhelming majority of prisoners lack the knowledge base to construct a vehicle capable of reaching escape velocity on their own simply because electrical devices can theoretically work. Even if one person miraculously did remember exactly how to pull it off, that's the sort of project that is associated with nation-states or multinational corporations. An immense amount of covert organization and industrialization (among prisoners, no less) would be needed to launch even a handful into orbit, where they still would face whatever defenses their captors have on hand.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm pretty certain that the overwhelming majority of prisoners lack the knowledge base to construct a vehicle capable of reaching escape velocity on their own simply because electrical devices can theoretically work. Even if one person miraculously did remember exactly how to pull it off, that's the sort of project that is associated with nation-states or multinational corporations. An immense amount of covert organization and industrialization (among prisoners, no less) would be needed to launch even a handful into orbit, where they still would face whatever defenses their captors have on hand.

On the other hand, this is also a setting in which an interstellar empire can afford to waste an inhabitable planet as a sadistic prison to terrorize and titillate its population, and that has the science/tech to create devices to suppress selective aspects of basic physics without also destroying matter or killing off every living thing in the area of effect.

They probably have methods of getting from the surface to orbit that we consider "bad science fiction", that don't involve massive controlled explosions shooting out the back of metal tubes.

[VoxRationis]

But those methods probably require even more technological sophistication, and even more of a well-developed industrial base, to create. The fact that I come from a society that can produce moon rockets doesn't make it easier for me to create a car if I'm dropped into the woods with a jacket and a wave "good luck." The height of my society's technological sophistication is irrelevant if I'm required to start from the bottom.

[Max_Killjoy]

But those methods probably require even more technological sophistication, and even more of a well-developed industrial base, to create. The fact that I come from a society that can produce moon rockets doesn't make it easier for me to create a car if I'm dropped into the woods with a jacket and a wave "good luck." The height of my society's technological sophistication is irrelevant if I'm required to start from the bottom.

First, this empire literally defies multiple aspects of reality as we know it. Casually, it seems. We have no idea how their technology works or what crossover applications might be possible. The difference between what they're capable of, and getting from surface to orbit, is like the difference between doctorate-level mathematical theory, and kindergarten math flashcards. Based on what we know they can do, things like "I'd like to get to that station in orbit" are equivalent to "what's 2+5?".

Second,, I don't think they're starting from scratch.

[Carl]

I rather think that's the point of the game being proposed. Also, read current Harley comics, she runs of Mayor of New York... maybe that says something about New York City.

Heh possibbly on the first point, as for the second, i don't read the comics but i recently got my hands via a relative on the suicide squad DVD which is what inspired the comparison. Knowing comic purists your probably grinding your teeth at the mention of that movie right now. Sorry.

I'm pretty certain that the overwhelming majority of prisoners lack the knowledge base to construct a vehicle capable of reaching escape velocity on their own simply because electrical devices can theoretically work. Even if one person miraculously did remember exactly how to pull it off, that's the sort of project that is associated with nation-states or multinational corporations. An immense amount of covert organization and industrialization (among prisoners, no less) would be needed to launch even a handful into orbit, where they still would face whatever defenses their captors have on hand.

This would undoubtedly be a long term effort to set up and might well turn into a generational effort. It's not going to be easy. But being hard never stopped countless prisoners and POW's over the years. Pulling this sort of thing off is basically a matter of time, effort, and pooling available knowledge.

[Vinyadan]

So the Civilization games are actually a jail simulator?

[HeadlessMermaid]

So the Civilization games are actually a jail simulator?

"Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons?"

[VoxRationis]

This would undoubtedly be a long term effort to set up and might well turn into a generational effort. It's not going to be easy. But being hard never stopped countless prisoners and POW's over the years. Pulling this sort of thing off is basically a matter of time, effort, and pooling available knowledge.

That's a generational effort at a minimum and quite possibly a trans-civilization effort. Digging an escape tunnel is hard, but it can be done with sticks or even bare hands, potentially. Building an escape combat-capable spacecraft is another thing entirely. Hell, even an escape aircraft is tricky. If you told the inmates of a prison in the US or another developed country that they could have total legal amnesty if they could process (generously provided) raw materials into a working rocket and used that to get over the walls, using only the knowledge they have memorized, I'm guessing they would get nowhere. Most of them wouldn't know where to begin. A selection would have some very basic theoretical knowledge of how it would work, but wouldn't know how to begin applying it. The people with applicable knowledge would have learned how to apply it in the context of a broad industrial base and would be helpless outside of it (e.g., your welders would just be used to having welding gear when they need to weld things and wouldn't know how to make, or even approximate, said gear). That's to say nothing of the fact that the people who know the really in-depth technical things tend not to be put in prison in the first place.

[Brother Oni]

I think your also seriously underestimating the degree of cooperation that would happen, they may not be very nice as a rule, but they're still human beings effectively trapped in hellish conditions against their will.

Just want to highlight this point as the others have already been covered - Nargrakhan can correct me, but aside from an off hand reference to the endgame being in command of a Max Max style city state, there's nothing in the brief that says the planet is an irradiated hellscape or a single biome desert planet like Star Wars' Tattoine.

The fact that it has a breathable atmosphere indicates that there's substantial vegetation (or something that's generating oxygen), so the planet could be just like Earth before the arrival of people - an untamed wilderness. Depending on how long the prison has been running, you could have anywhere from isolated communities of first generation convicts to fully formed nations at around the medieval level full of the descendants of the former inmates.

On the other hand, this is also a setting in which an interstellar empire can afford to waste an inhabitable planet as a sadistic prison to terrorize and titillate its population, and that has the science/tech to create devices to suppress selective aspects of basic physics without also destroying matter or killing off every living thing in the area of effect.

I thought that it was they found this unknown material that completely screwed up their tech and immediately quarantined the planet in fear. While the planet is habitable, it's a one way trip get down there, so turning it into a prison planet was basically a way to make use of an otherwise useless resource.

That's to say nothing of the fact that the people who know the really in-depth technical things tend not to be put in prison in the first place.

It depends exactly on who's being put into prison - if it's the serial killers and other professional criminals with sentences longer than their natural lives, then I'd agree they mostly stuck down there. If it's including political prisoners and other people inconvenient to the regime, then it gets a lot more likely that the prisoners have the knowledge base - they just need to survive the other group long enough to apply it.

Edit: Thinking about it some more, terrorists in the vein of the IRA would exactly be the sort of people capable of taking over the asylum and achieving the result that Carl suggests. Knowledgeable in adhoc manipulation of technologies and machinery, ideologically united and driven, well disciplined and organised, well versed in the use of violence and comfortable in dealing with shady people. The professional criminals down there with them would either be recruited, trade (comparatively) peacefully or give them a wide berth - the less socially functional people would be unlikely to be able to form a coherent group to oppose them effectively.

[Clistenes]

That's to say nothing of the fact that the people who know the really in-depth technical things tend not to be put in prison in the first place.

Also, they would have trouble getting people to listen to them in a society in which the pecking order is established stabbing each other's faces with sharpened bones or bashing each other brains with clubs and stones...

[DerKommissar]

Somehow that reminds me of that south park episode, where Randy discovers warp drive only to have the world been cut of from the rest of the universe forever :D

[Knaight]

Edit: Thinking about it some more, terrorists in the vein of the IRA would exactly be the sort of people capable of taking over the asylum and achieving the result that Carl suggests. Knowledgeable in adhoc manipulation of technologies and machinery, ideologically united and driven, well disciplined and organised, well versed in the use of violence and comfortable in dealing with shady people. The professional criminals down there with them would either be recruited, trade (comparatively) peacefully or give them a wide berth - the less socially functional people would be unlikely to be able to form a coherent group to oppose them effectively.

On the other hand, that only really applies if you have either one IRA like group or a few that are at all likely to end up working together. Having more than one makes it very easy to systematically remove any trace of "ideologically united".

That might not even be necessary - there's more than a few of these groups united more by a common enemy than anything else, remove the enemy and they'll balkanize.