The Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um!

[Calemyr]

Given that the whole point of staves is to allow non-mages to have some magic at their disposal, using a staff is definitely cheating, given that youre allegedly there to learn freaking magic. Its like using a BIC lighter to start a campfire when youre supposed to be doing it from scratch.

Except that's not what's happening, here. Not exactly, anyway. There are a couple other things at play.

1) Non-mages need access to the College to obtain the Dragon scroll. As such, initial access has to be achievable.

2) The entrance test is not meant to be a proof of exceptional talent. The College is used to being blamed for Winterhold's situation and just generally being the least respected institution in a land that respects barbarian heroes and distrusts magic. The test not only shows you can cast magic, no matter how minor, but also that you're willing to do so. Faralda's speech when you meet her makes it clear that she is pretty used to repelling Luddites and muggles, particularly drunk Luddites who blame the College for everything up to and including the frostbite on their rumps. The test keeps those kinds of people from making a scene inside the College.

3) Access to better magic is only one of the motivations they let you have when talking to Faralda, knowledge is a much bigger part of it. What the college offers is power, not so much magic. Of course, if you want to partake in the College without using it to its fullest, that's your deal. Trust me, you wouldn't be the only person who wasted their time in college.

4) The Mage's College is not about using magic, it's about handling magic. This is how Skyrim treats its mages. The Jarls don't keep court wizards because they can incinerate armies with a sneeze, they keep them so that when something magical does come up there's someone who has an idea how to handle it. Farengar doesn't hide the fact that he's usually dismissed as dead weight because Nords favor brawn over magic, he's clearly bitter about it, but when dragons are at the door they turn to him because they need to. The College is pretty much the same thing on a provincial scale. Sure, teach the few students who want to learn, by all means, but their real purpose is to deal with magic when it shows up. This means that the role of Archmage isn't given to the best caster, it's given to the one who can take care of business when magic is causing trouble. Even if you're roleplaying a Luddite, you'll still show yourself more capable of dealing with this stuff than anyone. Indeed, not relying on magic for everything is an advantage in the College. Labyrinthian's magicka drain effect makes the dungeon harder for mages, while fighters hardly notice, and the wisps that you fight in the arc are far more resistant to magic than to physical force.

Put another way, the Mage's College is a bit like the Unseen University from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. It's not about using magic, it's about being there when an expert in magical fields is required to handle a problem and not using magic irresponsibly. Or at least confining wizards into one place so they can feud and fight in a contained location and not disrupt the fabric of reality for everyone else.

Personally, I would have liked a more "magical" experience for the College quest, but I can't say this doesn't fit. This is Skyrim, and these are Nords. There's a cultural bias against guile and subtlety, and a bias for raw talent and brute force. It makes sense that guilds that favor guile and subtlety have a tendency to be ham-fisted in this environment and that blind audacity thrives even when it runs counter to the guild's ideals.

[Keltest]

Except that's not what's happening, here. Not exactly, anyway. There are a couple other things at play.

1) Non-mages need access to the College to obtain the Dragon scroll. As such, initial access has to be achievable.

2) The entrance test is not meant to be a proof of exceptional talent. The College is used to being blamed for Winterhold's situation and just generally being the least respected institution in a land that respects barbarian heroes and distrusts magic. The test not only shows you can cast magic, no matter how minor, but also that you're willing to do so. Faralda's speech when you meet her makes it clear that she is pretty used to repelling Luddites and muggles, particularly drunk Luddites who blame the College for everything up to and including the frostbite on their rumps. The test keeps those kinds of people from making a scene inside the College.

3) Access to better magic is only one of the motivations they let you have when talking to Faralda, knowledge is a much bigger part of it. What the college offers is power, not so much magic. Of course, if you want to partake in the College without using it to its fullest, that's your deal. Trust me, you wouldn't be the only person who wasted their time in college.

4) The Mage's College is not about using magic, it's about handling magic. This is how Skyrim treats its mages. The Jarls don't keep court wizards because they can incinerate armies with a sneeze, they keep them so that when something magical does come up there's someone who has an idea how to handle it. Farengar doesn't hide the fact that he's usually dismissed as dead weight because Nords favor brawn over magic, he's clearly bitter about it, but when dragons are at the door they turn to him because they need to. The College is pretty much the same thing on a provincial scale. Sure, teach the few students who want to learn, by all means, but their real purpose is to deal with magic when it shows up. This means that the role of Archmage isn't given to the best caster, it's given to the one who can take care of business when magic is causing trouble. Even if you're roleplaying a Luddite, you'll still show yourself more capable of dealing with this stuff than anyone. Indeed, not relying on magic for everything is an advantage in the College. Labyrinthian's magicka drain effect makes the dungeon harder for mages, while fighters hardly notice, and the wisps that you fight in the arc are far more resistant to magic than to physical force.

Put another way, the Mage's College is a bit like the Unseen University from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. It's not about using magic, it's about being there when an expert in magical fields is required to handle a problem and not using magic irresponsibly. Or at least confining wizards into one place so they can feud and fight in a contained location and not disrupt the fabric of reality for everyone else.

Personally, I would have liked a more "magical" experience for the College quest, but I can't say this doesn't fit. This is Skyrim, and these are Nords. There's a cultural bias against guile and subtlety, and a bias for raw talent and brute force. It makes sense that guilds that favor guile and subtlety have a tendency to be ham-fisted in this environment and that blind audacity thrives even when it runs counter to the guild's ideals.

All of these are technically true, but its kind of missing the greater point. This is supposed to be the Mage Quest Organization, and there are only two quests where you even have to cast a spell for them, one of which can be bypassed in any number of non-spell ways. They might as well employ you as a mercenary for the remainder, because they don't teach you any magic, they don't require you to know or do magic, and there isn't really any facility for actually learning magic as part of the college.

In Morrowind, you needed to have a specific aptitude as a mage before you could rank up, so no matter how loyal you were to the guild, and how competent, if you were a skilled swordsman who can only light a fire by standing in lava, you weren't going to rise very far in the hierarchy. In Oblivion, they sent you to the far corners of Cyrodiil to learn, taught you a bunch of different spells, and generally worked to actually train you into a proper mage who could do mage stuff. They gave you unique services that let you improve as a mage like spellcrafting and enchanting. In Skyrim they give you... the lowest level ward spell, if you don't have it already, and that is literally the extent of the magical ability the main quest of the college unlocks for you. If you want to be that drunken luddite who only goes to the college because they have one of those "book" things there, that's fine, you can breathe fire at problems.

[Calemyr]

All of these are technically true, but its kind of missing the greater point. This is supposed to be the Mage Quest Organization, and there are only two quests where you even have to cast a spell for them, one of which can be bypassed in any number of non-spell ways. They might as well employ you as a mercenary for the remainder, because they don't teach you any magic, they don't require you to know or do magic, and there isn't really any facility for actually learning magic as part of the college.

In Morrowind, you needed to have a specific aptitude as a mage before you could rank up, so no matter how loyal you were to the guild, and how competent, if you were a skilled swordsman who can only light a fire by standing in lava, you weren't going to rise very far in the hierarchy. In Oblivion, they sent you to the far corners of Cyrodiil to learn, taught you a bunch of different spells, and generally worked to actually train you into a proper mage who could do mage stuff. They gave you unique services that let you improve as a mage like spellcrafting and enchanting. In Skyrim they give you... the lowest level ward spell, if you don't have it already, and that is literally the extent of the magical ability the main quest of the college unlocks for you. If you want to be that drunken luddite who only goes to the college because they have one of those "book" things there, that's fine, you can breathe fire at problems.

First, I will agree that Morrowind's promotion requirements (must be have 40+ skill in two magical skills before earning the next rank) is my preference as a game mechanic. I also liked the competing, near exclusive, nature of the guilds where you have to box very clever to notch the best ranks in all the guilds. But that's game mechanics, not setting.

That said, this is Skyrim, not Morrowind. Morrowind is a culture that not only reveres magical power, one third of its dominant power structure is all wizard. The Imperial Province is all about institutionalized power, so magic thrives there as well. "No true Nord" respects magic, however, and its college isn't meant to be used the same way.

I'm not saying it's the most satisfying game design, just thematically appropriate.

[Talion]

All of these are technically true, but its kind of missing the greater point. This is supposed to be the Mage Quest Organization, and there are only two quests where you even have to cast a spell for them, one of which can be bypassed in any number of non-spell ways. They might as well employ you as a mercenary for the remainder, because they don't teach you any magic, they don't require you to know or do magic, and there isn't really any facility for actually learning magic as part of the college.

In Morrowind, you needed to have a specific aptitude as a mage before you could rank up, so no matter how loyal you were to the guild, and how competent, if you were a skilled swordsman who can only light a fire by standing in lava, you weren't going to rise very far in the hierarchy. In Oblivion, they sent you to the far corners of Cyrodiil to learn, taught you a bunch of different spells, and generally worked to actually train you into a proper mage who could do mage stuff. They gave you unique services that let you improve as a mage like spellcrafting and enchanting. In Skyrim they give you... the lowest level ward spell, if you don't have it already, and that is literally the extent of the magical ability the main quest of the college unlocks for you. If you want to be that drunken luddite who only goes to the college because they have one of those "book" things there, that's fine, you can breathe fire at problems.

There was also a prevalent theme in House Telvanni where your quest givers would say something along the lines of "You can at least cast THIS rudimentary spell right?" and, in several cases, would begrudgingly teach you if you didn't. And later on Master Aryon explicitly requires you to learn three basic spells (Levitate, which any sane person would have when visiting the Telvanni on a regular basis, Recall, and any premade Fire damage spell). And he'll teach you a custom cure blight disease too. Of course, your allies among the Telvanni are not afraid to lavish all kinds of magical toys on you either. My personal favorite was Amulet of Admonition (30 second paralysis on target with 1-2 Frost damage per second); almost too useful when you're just starting out.

[Keltest]

First, I will agree that Morrowind's promotion requirements (must be have 40+ skill in two magical skills before earning the next rank) is my preference as a game mechanic. I also liked the competing, near exclusive, nature of the guilds where you have to box very clever to notch the best ranks in all the guilds. But that's game mechanics, not setting.

That said, this is Skyrim, not Morrowind. Morrowind is a culture that not only reveres magical power, one third of its dominant power structure is all wizard. The Imperial Province is all about institutionalized power, so magic thrives there as well. "No true Nord" respects magic, however, and its college isn't meant to be used the same way.

I'm not saying it's the most satisfying game design, just thematically appropriate.

Thematically speaking, the fact that nords hate magic is a very good reason for them to have very little influence over the College and its goings-on. The Archmage is a Dunmer, and he has an Altmer advisor. At best, its location and the local color would give them a proclivity towards big impressive displays of magic to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies and be really obvious what benefit they bring to their allies.

[halfeye]

Compare the super-quick progression of Skyrim's guilds to Morrowind's or Oblivion's guilds. In order to earn entry into the Arcane University in Cyrodil, any prospective guildmember would need to hike from one end of Cyrodil to the other, earning approval from each local guild leader. Only then could you even start to do the mage's guild questline.

Yeah, but there are what 6~7 local guilds? From then on, it's similar to Skyrim, about six to eight quests to Guildmaster/Archmage, which feels really over-easy to me (I'm not saying Skyrim is harder, just that once you get to the arcane University, Oblivion doesn't seem much harder either).

Becoming the leader of virtually any group in Morrowind would see you doing jobs for that guild all across Vvardenfell, promoting their interests, and generally developing your character to fit in with that guild. When you reached the rank of Master, it felt much more meaningful because you could look back at all the work you'd put in to reaching that point.

Yeah, I need to play more Morrowind, at this point (despite using the steam version on a different physical drive) Win 7 is somehow preventing savegames from being written/overwritten.

One day I need to replay Oblivion, but Im always just far too lazy to set up mods for it.

Do you need mods?

There's that silly fires bug, but you need a program to deal with your savegames for that, not specifically a mod (there may well be one, I don't know).

You get Shivering Isles and Knights of the Nine in the five year pack.

[DigoDragon]

You can actually bypass the bridge by using a Shout, which is not technically magic. The others I'd forgotten about.

Using a Shout is more like Speech. You're debating entry into the college the way a dragon would. :3

Yeah, but either of those requires you to be highly experienced and/or festooned with artifacts before you start the process. If you really want, you could also use staves to shape the crystal. But that's just playing silly b****rs for the sake of it. I would call it a strength, not a weakness, that the requirements are sufficiently flexible to allow such workarounds.

Don't get me wrong, I think the mages quest is all kinds of credulity-defying dumb. But I take issue with the claim that you don't need to cast anything to complete it.

Eh, you get your first dragon shout early in the main quest, so I wouldn't say you are highly experienced.

Getting spellbreaker is a bit long of a task since the dungeon is decently large and much farther off to the west away from the college. So it would be a really inefficient way of getting around spellcasting in the guild. It could be done, but I don't see why one would go through that kind of trouble other than real boredom because it's a lot more effort than just learning a couple spells for the straight-forward method.

[Calemyr]

Thematically speaking, the fact that nords hate magic is a very good reason for them to have very little influence over the College and its goings-on. The Archmage is a Dunmer, and he has an Altmer advisor. At best, its location and the local color would give them a proclivity towards big impressive displays of magic to strike fear into the hearts of their enemies and be really obvious what benefit they bring to their allies.

That is for a very simple reason. Elder Scrolls magic is largely balanced, so that a fighter can butcher mages en masse as easily as a mage can fry fighters, and there are a lot of fighters in Skyrim. If the College went adversarial and tried to put the fear of the mage in their neighbors... well, it wouldn't go well for them. Nobody likes the mages, but people don't hate them. People don't trust them, blame anything they don't see as natural on them (primarily the bad things), and generally want as little to do with them as possible. The populace doesn't want to see them dead, however, favoring a live and let live approach because mages do serve a purpose.

If you've played Dawnguard, this is almost exactly why Valerica objects to her husband's eternal night agenda. Mortals may be cattle to be harvested at will and largely beneath contempt, but you blot out the sun and you'll face quantity that will put your quality to shame.

The uneasy truce they have is perfectly demonstrated by Faralda: one woman bars the entrance, demanding a trivial show of magic in exchange for admittance. She makes no threat, but gives no ground, a perfect picture of passive resistance. All well and good until you realize Faralda is the school's Master of Destruction, the single most potent offensive caster they have, and it becomes clear that the things aren't as civil as they appear. They don't want to start a war, but they are afraid it will come. Thankfully, you can calm the tensions through the civil war. If the civil war places the hold in Imperial hands, the new Jarl does not blame the mages for the fall of Winterhold.

Eh, you get your first dragon shout early in the main quest, so I wouldn't say you are highly experienced.

Not highly experienced, no, but still uniquely qualified. To use any dragon shout you have to either study the Thu'um with the Greybeards for a long time or you have to fill a list of rare qualifications: you have to be dragonborn (absurdly rare), had to have seen a draconic word written down and connected with it in some way (moderately rare, almost always involving serious danger), and then have to have killed a dragon at close enough range to absorb its essence (again, absurdly rare before the game starts). You are explicitly the last dragonborn, a unique occurrence with a legendary innate skill. They are not letting you past because you yelled at them. They are letting you past because you can, through your voice and will alone, warp reality. Maybe that's not magic, but I'd say it's close enough when all they were looking for was casting some low grade spell they were willing to teach you, anyway.

[factotum]

That is for a very simple reason. Elder Scrolls magic is largely balanced

Really? We're talking the same game series where magic was so stupidly overpowered in Daggerfall that they nerfed it into near-uselessness in Morrowind? Even in Skyrim, where they've had a few games to learn and you'd think they'd have the balance right, a fighter with a sword and the right gear will absolutely out-damage a mage while being about ten times as tanky. Balanced it most definitely is not.

[Calemyr]

Really? We're talking the same game series where magic was so stupidly overpowered in Daggerfall that they nerfed it into near-uselessness in Morrowind? Even in Skyrim, where they've had a few games to learn and you'd think they'd have the balance right, a fighter with a sword and the right gear will absolutely out-damage a mage while being about ten times as tanky. Balanced it most definitely is not.

Your point is valid, yes. Balance was not the best word choice there. I jumped in with Morrowind, so I missed Daggerfall, but I get what you're saying. I mod these games to Oblivion and back in part because of their horrible balance, I suppose. Sometimes I forget that the game I play is somewhat removed from the game I purchased.

That said, however, you more or less make my point if I read your statement correctly. In Skyrim, mages are at a disadvantage on a lot of fronts. It would be a fantastically stupid idea for a dozen mages, even if 70% of them are masters in their respective fields, to antagonize a country founded around the ideal of the barbarian hero when their neighbors at best only tolerate their continued existence.

[Triaxx]

Nah, it's simple, replace a section of the bridge with an illusion, then insult their mothers. Then kill the last few who get in by climbing the mountain of corpses.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Has anyone else run into the problem where, if you kill a dragon at a named spot (i.e. Go back to Bonestrewn crest), the dragon will, for some reason, not have a soul for you to devour? I've had this happen a couple times, now.

Also ran into this; it's very irritating. Except for getting to see the dragons with their skin on, up close and not trying to kill me at the same time; that part is cool.

Question: Is there a race you almost never - or at least seldomly - pick?

Argonian. I finally rolled one in ESO, but usually I avoid them. Because while Water Breathing is awesome, the games are designed around being playable by all the races, which means there isn't much in the water to use that Water Breathing to find. And then there are usually potions or enchantments I can swap to for the duration. So the awesome ability is useless. I hope if we go to Black Marsh in a future single-player game, half the map is under water so I can USE that lovely Water Breathing.

I should probably wait to post this. You know, edit it, get a second draft, make a more coherent argument and maybe a conclusion paragraph, but I'm tired as it is and this is hogging my open window. Thoughts?

I'm inclined to agree; at the very least I would expect more radiant quests between story quests - especially for the Thieves' Guild. If I was pickpocketing and robbing everyone between story quests, then it becomes more believable that the vault that needs two keys would have something in it for Mercer to steal...

[Triaxx]

Interestingly, one of the things Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul added was several areas either partially or fully underwater, requiring a water breathing item, or being an Argonian. (Or copious amounts of lettuce and slaughterfish scales.)

[T.G. Oskar]

Stopped for a bit, but playing with Dar'riyhl is pretty fun. Well...the Fury spell is pretty fun.

With my Warrior character (William), he could be easily overwhelmed by many enemies at once, even when he was a sword & board with good equipment, Oakflesh, and high levels in One-Handed and Block. The way to go with him was pretty straightforward, as well, meaning there was very little to do - rush in, power-attack everything, and hope to survive by chugging potions like crazy.

With Dar'riyhl, things are different as he doesn't have that tankiness advantage (though his Light Armor so far is decent enough). So, he has to rely on stealth, but once that's gone, he's at a disadvantage. This is where Fury comes in, as it's a Novice spell (which means it has low Magicka cost), works on early enemies pretty reliably, and lets them beat each other. All I need is for the enemy not to detect me...and since I'm usually casting from Stealth, and I run away like a frightened cat (pun intended) to remain in Stealth, they kill each other pretty easily. I believe the reason this strategy is so fun is because it lets me pick enemies one by one, rather than go all-out with them. I spat in laughter when one of the bandits said, scared, something along the lines of "they sent a killer for us!".

Of course, stealth outdoors is harder to pull off, and things like Flame Atronachs and Spriggans detect me pretty easily, and they're the real challenge. At least I can work with sniping now...

[factotum]

This is where Fury comes in, as it's a Novice spell (which means it has low Magicka cost), works on early enemies pretty reliably, and lets them beat each other.

Unfortunately it won't work well on later enemies unless you really concentrate on getting all the perks that boost it and using the higher level versions of the spell. TBH, if you're going to concentrate on *any* school of magic as a stealthy character, it probably ought to be Illusion--going invisible and repositioning when you get detected is a useful get-out-of-death-free card.

[T.G. Oskar]

Unfortunately it won't work well on later enemies unless you really concentrate on getting all the perks that boost it and using the higher level versions of the spell. TBH, if you're going to concentrate on *any* school of magic as a stealthy character, it probably ought to be Illusion--going invisible and repositioning when you get detected is a useful get-out-of-death-free card.

Sure, I'm aware of that (I mean, it already doesn't work on Draugr, and you need one of the higher-level perks to get to affect them), but it's good for a start. Think about it this way - right now, it's a lifesaver. By the time it starts to fade, I'll probably be on my way to Invisibility and Shadow Warrior (or have the Shadowcloak of Nocturnal), meaning it won't be as necessary; still fun, but not as necessary. Plus, it's a way to boost Illusion IN ORDER to get Invisibility, so it's a win-win situation. I'm aiming more for Calm-line spells, in case I *somehow* get caught pickpocketing after all the perks and items that boost such.

Also, I did mention "early enemies". It works only against level 9 enemies, and I'm already close to breaching level 18 with Dar'riyhl, meaning all enemies he faces and all NPCs he meets won't be affected anymore. Calm-line spells have it worse, being Apprentice+ spells with exorbitant Magicka costs that affect enemies of lesser level. And Fear spells...enchanted items work far, far better and having them run away can be a pain (see: William pursuing turned Draugr hit by the Dawnbreaker's explosive wave).

[Spore]

Unfortunately it won't work well on later enemies unless you really concentrate on getting all the perks that boost it and using the higher level versions of the spell. TBH, if you're going to concentrate on *any* school of magic as a stealthy character, it probably ought to be Illusion--going invisible and repositioning when you get detected is a useful get-out-of-death-free card.

People played Oblivion without levelling up. If you want to, you can stay level 1 and thus use it on everyone that has no positive multiplication on its level (PC x 1). the odd implication is that you need 2-3 bandits to kill one well equipped farmer with a sword (they're set to level 4 usually).

Farmer....FARMER! Did you guys ever roleplay as an NPC? Farming is romanticised in almost every fiction and you have enough farmers picking up arms during the civil war. What would a skilled farmer skill into?

Onehanded? Twohanded? Unarmed? Archery?
Would he use cheap light armor? Or go unarmed? (surely he knows no magic so no flesh spells)
What are his out of combat skills? Alchemy? Speech?

What do you guys think about a farmer (sans dragonborn, for now). A Nord clad in his grandfather's old imperial armor, that knows a thing or two about plants and is experienced in market places so he knows how to sweet talk. His farm got burned down by raiders (there is a ruin in Whiterun that would fit this description although the proximity to the first dragon encounter suggests a dragon attack).

He absolutely hates bandits and will enter any bandit camp. Depending on experiences with Nords and Non-Nords he will either be a professional racist Stormcloak or aid the Imperials, just like his grandpa. He will join the companions but refuse the curse (either that or RP that Aela forces the curse on him). He will do his best to cleanse the circle afterwards. I will do my best to marry anew and adopt a child. When the farmer sees that Grelod is unwilling to part with them, his emotions will get the best of him and he will punch her, killing her. Ever embarrassed he will detect that no one misses her. Guilt-ridden he will try to adopt every child, eventually stumbling over Aventus and leading the purge against the Brotherhood.

How a mere farmer defeats a skilled well equipped assassin such as Astrid is a thing left to be thought of. Her advantage is being hidden, so maybe she underestimated the farmer.

[DigoDragon]

I'm inclined to agree; at the very least I would expect more radiant quests between story quests - especially for the Thieves' Guild. If I was pickpocketing and robbing everyone between story quests, then it becomes more believable that the vault that needs two keys would have something in it for Mercer to steal...

Better radiant quests I hope. What it does have is those side quests to go to X town and steal X object. It's fun at first, but they tend to repeat in short order. I think in Solitude I robbed the same house three times."

[LibraryOgre]

Unfortunately it won't work well on later enemies unless you really concentrate on getting all the perks that boost it and using the higher level versions of the spell. TBH, if you're going to concentrate on *any* school of magic as a stealthy character, it probably ought to be Illusion--going invisible and repositioning when you get detected is a useful get-out-of-death-free card.

When I'm heavy stealthing, I keep invisibility on my right hand, and switch around what's on my left... usually including a hotkeyed Muffle. while you CAN murder your way through Calcemo's study, going stealth is a lot of fun, too.

And last night I had the fun of fighting an Ancient Dragon and a Revered dragon at the same time. Running and gunning... by which I mean "Run like mad and summon storm atronachs until they're forced to land, then Dremora Lords, with the occasional 'weaken bad guy' shouts."

[Divayth Fyr]

There was also a prevalent theme in House Telvanni where your quest givers would say something along the lines of "You can at least cast THIS rudimentary spell right?" and, in several cases, would begrudgingly teach you if you didn't. And later on Master Aryon explicitly requires you to learn three basic spells (Levitate, which any sane person would have when visiting the Telvanni on a regular basis, Recall, and any premade Fire damage spell). And he'll teach you a custom cure blight disease too. Of course, your allies among the Telvanni are not afraid to lavish all kinds of magical toys on you either. My personal favorite was Amulet of Admonition (30 second paralysis on target with 1-2 Frost damage per second); almost too useful when you're just starting out.

It is kinda hilarious and sad at the same time how the Mages Guild basically gives you crap while even the earliest Telvanni quests shower you in free spells, enchanted items and gold.

[LibraryOgre]

It is kinda hilarious and sad at the same time how the Mages Guild basically gives you crap while even the earliest Telvanni quests shower you in free spells, enchanted items and gold.

"Oh, you can't do that? *sigh* I don't want to do it, so let me teach you this spell so you can go be useful."

[Spore]

It is kinda hilarious and sad at the same time how the Mages Guild basically gives you crap while even the earliest Telvanni quests shower you in free spells, enchanted items and gold.

At least that kind of makes sense in universe as the college is severely downsized.

[Balmas]

For a game that prides itself on the mix and match playstyle you are awfully centered around single "classed" guild questlines, Skyrim.

Huh. You know, I hadn't even thought of that. Cross-class characters are a fantastic idea.

Actually there are several other places in the mages quest where you need to cast spells, starting with one to get you over the bridge into the college to begin with. Then you have to cast a ward in your first lesson, you have to cast something on the wall in Saarthal when you put the amulet on, and you have to cast again to breach Ancano's force wall. And there are those doors in Labyrinthian.

I've played that quest too many times...

True, true. I'd forgotten those parts.

It's worth noting that the Dark Brotherhood questline probably makes the most sense in this regard--you're already the Listener of the Night Mother, all the other likely leadership candidates are killed in the attack on the Falkreath sanctuary, and the Skyrim Dark Brotherhood is pretty darned small to start with, so why not have you as leader? The Thieves' Guild questline is such a horrible mess that having you become the Guildmaster at the end of it is just par for the course, really.

I'd debate whether or not being chosen by a daedric prince is more or less of a contrivance than "you win the questline, here's your leadership badge," but being a champion of every Daedric prince at once has almost become a staple of Elder Scrolls games by now.

That is for a very simple reason. Elder Scrolls magic is largely balanced, so that a fighter can butcher mages en masse as easily as a mage can fry fighters, and there are a lot of fighters in Skyrim. If the College went adversarial and tried to put the fear of the mage in their neighbors... well, it wouldn't go well for them. Nobody likes the mages, but people don't hate them. People don't trust them, blame anything they don't see as natural on them (primarily the bad things), and generally want as little to do with them as possible. The populace doesn't want to see them dead, however, favoring a live and let live approach because mages do serve a purpose.

If you've played Dawnguard, this is almost exactly why Valerica objects to her husband's eternal night agenda. Mortals may be cattle to be harvested at will and largely beneath contempt, but you blot out the sun and you'll face quantity that will put your quality to shame.

If we're talking about a direct assault, the College of Winterhold is uniquely well defended. It stands on an island of land with a hundred foot vertical drop in every direction, with only one narrow bridge to connect it to the mainland. One band with spears and shields or one sufficiently powerful destruction caster would be capable of holding that bridge almost indefinitely. The only way I could feasibly see the College of Winterhold being conquered is if somebody just put the place to seige and waited for them to starve.

Really? We're talking the same game series where magic was so stupidly overpowered in Daggerfall that they nerfed it into near-uselessness in Morrowind? Even in Skyrim, where they've had a few games to learn and you'd think they'd have the balance right, a fighter with a sword and the right gear will absolutely out-damage a mage while being about ten times as tanky. Balanced it most definitely is not.

You know, one of these days I'm going to have to see what was so overpowered about Daggerfall magic that Morrowind's magic system is the one that's nerfed. Heck, it's the one I go to as an example of "if you want to do it, you probably can."

Farmer....FARMER! Did you guys ever roleplay as an NPC? Farming is romanticised in almost every fiction and you have enough farmers picking up arms during the civil war. What would a skilled farmer skill into?

Onehanded? Twohanded? Unarmed? Archery?
Would he use cheap light armor? Or go unarmed? (surely he knows no magic so no flesh spells)
What are his out of combat skills? Alchemy? Speech?

H'okay, so let's dig into this hypothetical farmer.

I'm betting he'd have the most experience with one-handed weapons. Two-handed weapons are where you get things like greatswords, waraxes, and warhammers, and all those other things that are more typically associated with, you know, warriors. They're not your average farm implement, is what I'm saying, and they're almost certainly not something our intrepid youth would know how to use. The only two-handed implement he'd know would be a scythe, or maybe a thresher. However, his granddaddy's imperial sword, or a wooden club, or a belt dagger? These are all things he'd probably understand.

When it comes to armor, I think he'd actually go the heavy armor route. Light armor requires a bit of skill in avoiding, dodging, letting blows slide off you instead of digging in. Heavy armor might have a few drawbacks in terms of weight and speed, but it's very well suited to making sure that a dumb peasant wearing the stuff doesn't immediately lose a limb the first time he dodges wrong. He might not have a set starting out because, come on, that stuff is expensive and no farmer's son is going to have a full suit of armor waiting, but he'll get a lot of use out of the first heavy armor set he finds.

As for out-of-combat skills, I'm betting speech is going to be up there. Farmers need to be able to sell their stuff well at market, after all. Maybe a bit of sneak, depending on whether our farmboy spent some time poaching the Jarl's deer or not. I'd normally also suggest that most people know a few healing cantrips, but with magic off the table, he might know enough folk remedies to have the fundamentals of alchemy down. After all, it's simple enough to remember granny's old wheat-and-flower herbal tea.

It is kinda hilarious and sad at the same time how the Mages Guild basically gives you crap while even the earliest Telvanni quests shower you in free spells, enchanted items and gold.

Okay, but can we really expect an unbiased opinion on this from a Telvanni magelord?

[Triaxx]

I'd actually suggest two handed weapons for your farmer. Either from using an axe to chop wood for the fire (which is hilariously classed as a one-handed weapon even though the animation for chopping is two-handed.) Or from using hoe, pitchfork and scythe around the farm. That said, the one farmer looking for adventure we do encounter is carrying his Pa's Axe so... Erik the Slayer also goes for one-handed and I believe heavy armor.

[The_Jackal]

Huh. You know, I hadn't even thought of that. Cross-class characters are a fantastic idea.

That's a very good point, in fact, I'd say it would be more interesting if, given the flexibility of Elder Scrolls progression systems, the various organizations were less driven around a specialization concept. I mean, I think that's one of the big strengths of the Dark Brotherhood campaign: The missions and story are about what happens to your character, and to the sanctuary, but not about who s/he is. There's no right or wrong way to murder people, they care about the results, not the method.

The Thieves' Guild is also good on that measure, though you obviously should have some covert chops to do their missions, but if you're a magic-based sneak, or a skill-based sneak, the story really doesn't care.

Wouldn't it be better if the Companions and the College were less built on being 'professional guilds' and more about the organization's goals and ideology? This doesn't necessarily mean the group changes in their overall theme, either. After all, why wouldn't a group of mages want to employ some non-magical muscle, or why wouldn't the companions appreciate having a restoration specialist who could tend their wounds gotten in glorious battle?

I'd debate whether or not being chosen by a daedric prince is more or less of a contrivance than "you win the questline, here's your leadership badge," but being a champion of every Daedric prince at once has almost become a staple of Elder Scrolls games by now.

That's just a byproduct of the sandbox nature of the game series, and a certain economy of content creation, where the developers don't want to make a bunch of content, and then make the player choose only a subset of it to experience. When a large portion of the game's value premise is founded on the hours of gameplay, branching and threading content is a hard, hard sell to the game's promotional staff. So, you don't have to carry water for ever Daedric Prince, but they've made it easy enough if you do choose to. Personally, I think it would a lot cooler if you had to choose your supernatural patron, instead of being able to treat divine sponsorship like a buffet, but sadly I don't have millions of dollars to spend developing a triple-A game.

If we're talking about a direct assault, the College of Winterhold is uniquely well defended. It stands on an island of land with a hundred foot vertical drop in every direction, with only one narrow bridge to connect it to the mainland. One band with spears and shields or one sufficiently powerful destruction caster would be capable of holding that bridge almost indefinitely. The only way I could feasibly see the College of Winterhold being conquered is if somebody just put the place to seige and waited for them to starve.

If they can be supplied by sea, that could take a while, and there's also the Midden underneath, through which supplies could be smuggled. On the other hand, the College being located on a promontory jutting into the sea cuts both ways. Some mangonels or trebuchets could weaken the foundations of the College sufficently to throw the whole edifice into the sea.

[Balmas]

That's a very good point, in fact, I'd say it would be more interesting if, given the flexibility of Elder Scrolls progression systems, the various organizations were less driven around a specialization concept. I mean, I think that's one of the big strengths of the Dark Brotherhood campaign: The missions and story are about what happens to your character, and to the sanctuary, but not about who s/he is. There's no right or wrong way to murder people, they care about the results, not the method.

The Thieves' Guild is also good on that measure, though you obviously should have some covert chops to do their missions, but if you're a magic-based sneak, or a skill-based sneak, the story really doesn't care.

Wouldn't it be better if the Companions and the College were less built on being 'professional guilds' and more about the organization's goals and ideology? This doesn't necessarily mean the group changes in their overall theme, either. After all, why wouldn't a group of mages want to employ some non-magical muscle, or why wouldn't the companions appreciate having a restoration specialist who could tend their wounds gotten in glorious battle?

I like where this train of thought is heading. Let's follow it a bit more, and try to define what each group's ideal would be.

The Companions are the easiest to define. If they had a value statement, it'd be about honor and glory. It doesn't matter what you do, so long as it makes for a good song. You can be a legendary thief, who struck fear and awe in guards across the country, who managed to steal a house while the person was living in it. Or, maybe, they'll sing songs of Llewelyn the Llecherous, who burned down the Jarl's palace in the most debauched orgy in history. And who could forget our own Aela, who shot a wing off a fly so clean the fly itself didn't realize until it hit the ground? Everything about the Companions' lifestyle is big; big feasts, big contests, big boasts, big nights spent carousing until the skald is singing into his mug (which, naturally, is also big).

If you asked a member of the Thieves Guild what they value, it's going to be Fortune and Wealth. It's all about having more, being richer, about showing up that one snob who always seems to have the newest and best. It's probably not called the Thieves Guild, because what thief actually wants to be called as such? Its members include thieves, of course, but it's also the home of merchants, blackmailers, and lawyers. Expect guild functions to be about showing off power, wealth, ostentatious displays, and bragging about who has which jarl in whose pockets. And of course, each guild member lives with the understanding that their fiercest competition is, in fact, the other guild members. Competition is ruthless, with anything an option short of murder, so long as you wind up on top. (Murder is forbidden, of course, because killing your competition would ruin the fun.) Steal the guildmaster's set of daedric armor? You know that you can strut your stuff in it at the next guild function, and he won't be able to do a thing but stew in his anger. Of course, he'll probably come for you in turn, and he'll be able to hire better thugs than you, so enjoy it while you can.

For the College, it's about knowledge and power. The wizards of the college understand that they live on a knife's edge, with nords that hate them on one side and the various denizens of Oblivion on the other. What's more, they know that the nordlings around them don't understand what they're meddling with. I mean, really. They talk all about grave robbing, and desecrating the tombs of our ancestors, but they don't understand the value of the things found in these tombs. This is the guild for the Indiana Joneses in the audience. If the nordlings only knew the power we wield, they'd fall over themselves to have us in their courts. This is a college that doesn't deny that they caused the great collapse--indeed, they flaunt it. They've made up a story about how the Jarl of the time had snubbed them, and look what happened. Do you want that to happen to you? I didn't think so. Now get me my staff, you cretin.

As for the Dark Brotherhood... Eh. They're lunatics who follow a dark god. Who knows that they want?

If they can be supplied by sea, that could take a while, and there's also the Midden underneath, through which supplies could be smuggled. On the other hand, the College being located on a promontory jutting into the sea cuts both ways. Some mangonels or trebuchets could weaken the foundations of the College sufficently to throw the whole edifice into the sea.

True. I'd be kind of interested in seeing siege weaponry vs elemental magic, though. Like, can you position a trebuchet far enough away that the fireballs of the enemy caster won't be able to reach it, and so on.

[factotum]

I'd debate whether or not being chosen by a daedric prince is more or less of a contrivance than "you win the questline, here's your leadership badge,"

That was only *one* of the factors I mentioned for you being the leader of the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim. After the attack on the Falkreath sanctuary, who's left who would be a better choice? Nazir clearly doesn't want the job, Babette has been around for centuries and has never become leader so we can assume she doesn't want it either, and Cicero is insane. You, on the other hand, have killed the Emperor (twice). Seems to me you're by far the best qualified to lead even if you ignore the whole Listener of the Night Mother thing.

[Spore]

I'd debate whether or not being chosen by a daedric prince is more or less of a contrivance than "you win the questline, here's your leadership badge," but being a champion of every Daedric prince at once has almost become a staple of Elder Scrolls games by now.

Daedric Prince? Sithis is the embodiment of darkness and not a mere daedra. He is the embodiment of darkness and void. That is what makes the Brotherhood so unsettling. They are not working for entropy incarnate. They work for and with the hungering darkness.

But to be fair, I think gods and demon lords in Tamriel know of your exalted status as player character/Hero of Kvatch/Nerevar/Dragonborn. And you are the most likely prospect here. The vampire is a professional alchemist whose brews are most likely needed for future assassins (it's easier to kill a paralyzed enemy or to escape a detected situation using healing potions) and contrary to ingame mechanics, brewing potions takes time. And Nazir is the one with experience in training young assassins, not you. Plus you started all that and the purge was "necessary" in Sithis' eyes.

H'okay, so let's dig into this hypothetical farmer.

Well, you suggestions do make sense. I figured starting in the Bannered Mare makes the most sense (as the life another life mod has no "stands in burned ruins" start). this start gives you clothing and a onehanded axe. It makes sense that only a dull cheap axe was not plundered by bandits.

So - incredibly drunken he runs out to kill him some bandits. In his drunken stupor he mows through almost a dozen bandits. The bandit chief and his lackeys prove a bit too much for him however. So he yields for now. He needs training obviously. Almost shivering from the wounds and cold he sees the companions kill a giant in the fields of Whiterun. They are strong. He needs their training. They moan because you, the random farmer, did not join them in killing this incredibly dangerous creature. But they do offer you to join anyway...

Yes, onehanded, heavy armor plus shield makes a lot of sense. I feel it is easiest to learn to time blocks than to dodge or simply tank the hits. Ingame you have a health bar. But in reality even an unlucky dagger hit could wound you mortally.

[Talion]

Okay, but can we really expect an unbiased opinion on this from a Telvanni magelord?

Hmm...on the one hand, Fyr barely interacts with his fellow Telvanni and more or less stays out of their politics, so it's almost hard to call him a Telvanni proper (even though the Telvanni council would be foolish beyond compare to oppose him in just about anything). It's really almost like...what is it...almost like being an honorary member. Heck, within the game code he technically ISN'T a Telvanni (mostly to prevent him from having a bad attitude towards any non-Telvanni Nerevarines).

On the other hand, as long as he doesn't consider you boring (or break his literal one...one and a half rules) he invites you to take just about anything (and indeed everything) out of a sizable range of unique artifacts and other goodies. Without doing a quest. Or any other favors. Just..."Have fun, don't kill anyone, and take what you like. If I really need it I'm sure it'll find its way back to me one of these centuries. But tbh most of this is just gathering dust and I have plenty of interesting projects to work on right now." So in that respect he's even more ridiculous about showering nice things on the player than the other Telvanni. Heck, you don't even need to ask permission in the first place. Which I do suppose is rather Telvanni in and of itself. If you didn't know that he's pretty chill you'd have to be pretty gutsy (or stupid) to try and rob him.

4,000 year old dimension walking wizards are weird man.

[Spore]

4,000 year old dimension walking wizards are weird man.

Maybe he is a D&D wizard and knows he can retake any artifact in a matter of a single spell preparation cycle from you anyway. :)