The Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um!

[Inarius]

The thing about destruction is its simultaneously weak and OP. Impact + augmented rank 2+ 100% destruction cost reduction makes it so you stunlock every enemy in the game. Even if your damage is utter crap while doing it you're in no actual danger of dying.

Its why I like mods that both nerf impact and swap the alchemy and enchanting effects so you get bonus damage from gear and cost reduction from alchemy. It boosts the underperforming aspect of destruction while nerfing the OP part of it. Just makes destruction feel better to me doing it that way.

[Triaxx]

Differing definition of sniping. You're thinking of hitting and doing massive damage, while I'm thinking of reaching out and touching them from a distance well beyond their ability to attack back.

[Rynjin]

But yeah, with perk overhaul mods (which usually add a spell sneak attack) and Apocalpyse (both of which I consider necessary mods) you also get proper high damage spell sniping. Ice Shiv is real neato.

[Triaxx]

I find every time I use Ice Shiv, they turn around just before it arrives, negating the whole effort. Bolide on the other hand that's stronger the further away you are? Yeah, much better.

[Rynjin]

Gotta take a small dip in Illusion for silent casting if you wanna sneaky mage.

[Triaxx]

Usually the explosion and pile of corpses give me away most of the time.

[DigoDragon]

Usually the explosion and pile of corpses give me away most of the time.

If there are any witnesses, then clearly the explosion is not big enough.

[Balmas]

There's a number of things in Vanilla Skyrim's magic system that have bothered me for a long time.

First off is that both perks and enchantments are focused on cost reduction. In fact, it seems that using enchantment to get your spells' cost reduction up is expected, given the costs of the higher level spells. 300 magicka for a single Expert Rout? 1400 magicka for Master level spells? Even with the 50% cost reduction you'd get for investing 5 perks into the tree, and the 41% innate cost reduction you'd get for having 100 skill in the school, you're talking thirty two levels' worth of pumping magicka to be able to cast a single Master level spell once.

In practice, though, using perks to reduce costs for spellcasting is superfluous, because enchanting can reduce costs all the way to zero for at least two schools at a time. (It's just one more factor that makes crafting skills the trifecta of Boring But Necessary that they are in Skyrim.) In effect, you have twenty-five perks that are almost entirely useless because another skill tree makes them obsolete.

You need to invest heavily down each magic still perk tree just to make them viable. Destruction is simultaneously OP and wimpy, depending on whether or not you have Impact and the cost reduction to spam double-cast spells. Illusion spells won't effect the second-most common enemy in the game until you have the 90 skill necessary to get Master of the Mind. Alteration has some of the more useful utility spells in the game, so naturally none of the perks support them. Two thirds of the spells in Restoration are either useless or gimped by the focus on two-handed casting in the game. Conjuration is, admittedly, one of the best skills in the game, if only because Skyrim's difficulty system makes conjured minions more powerful than you are at the highest difficulties.

Compare that to other skills. All weapon skill trees give you better damage, or more efficient use of stamina, or useful new abilities. Some of them are worse than others, like basically anything involving criticals or bleeding, but you can rely on them to actually make you more effective at killing/incapacitating things. Even comparing damage-boosting perks, Destruction makes you spend eight perks for a ~300% increase, compared to weapons' Smithing+Enchanting+100% more damage perks, all of which stack with each other and which cost only five perks and don't take into account other damage-boosting perks.

I dunno, man. I've been staring at this screen trying to figure out how to explain how I feel for about an hour now. Most of the skills are weak, except for Conjuration which is one of the strongest schools in the game. Illusion has silent casting for some reason, when I'd put it in the sneak tree.

Just me complaining about Skyrim's balance, I guess.

[Anteros]

I've honestly never seen any reason to put points into anything but magic when you level up anyway. I don't even really play mages, but the health and stamina options just don't see necessary at all.

[Triaxx]

Never mind that on top of all that, Dual Casting is by default, not only worthless, but worse than worthless. For 2.8 times the input cost, you get 2.2 times the output. Meaning you get three times the damage give or take, just casting pairs of spells than you do casting one dual-cast one.

All this together is among the many reasons I never used vanilla magic. I went from Balanced Magic to SkyRe's perks, to now Ordinators.

There is some support to the Alteration spells in vanilla. One perk makes them last slightly longer. Stability at 70 gives +50% duration. And Mage Armor Doubles and eventually triples the protection if you're not wearing armor while using a flesh spell. But there's no penalty in vanilla for being in full Daedric armor and waving magic at everything. So there's no point at all in not just wearing armor, unless you're roleplaying.

And illusion doesn't affect the three types of enemies you'd most want it to. Undead, which are everywhere. Automatons which are in every Dwemer ruin, which is EVERYWHERE, and Atronachs, which are less common, but are a summon that the aforementioned undead absolutely love. But what's more important? After a while they flat out stop working period. I understand why, but getting more powerful as I am, I should be getting the upgrade to those spells for free when I pickup the next relevant perk. Even if you're dedicated enough to run back to town, and pick up the more powerful version upon being informed the enemy is too strong, by the time you get back, they may well have changed into something even immune to the new spell. And by then even the most dedicated RP'er is going to switch to just beating it to death.

Smithing and Enchanting don't even necessarily take perks to stupidly boost effectiveness. Plus you can stack on potions from Alchemy that make you do bonus damage when stabbing/slashing/bludgeoning things.

[veti]

Never mind that on top of all that, Dual Casting is by default, not only worthless, but worse than worthless. For 2.8 times the input cost, you get 2.2 times the output. Meaning you get three times the damage give or take, just casting pairs of spells than you do casting one dual-cast one.

Even allowing for the factor of two that you seem to have dropped, schools have their own bonuses for dual casting. Destruction gives you Impact, which is game-breakingly powerful. Illusion allows you to affect higher level targets, who would otherwise be immune - there is no such thing as a partial frenzy. Both are well worth the higher casting cost, even without the "magicka cost is irrelevant anyway" exploit.

There is some support to the Alteration spells in vanilla. One perk makes them last slightly longer. Stability at 70 gives +50% duration. And Mage Armor Doubles and eventually triples the protection if you're not wearing armor while using a flesh spell. But there's no penalty in vanilla for being in full Daedric armor and waving magic at everything. So there's no point at all in not just wearing armor, unless you're roleplaying.

Weight. Armour weighs. Heavy armour weighs a lot. I've never actually worn daedric armour, but I imagine it weighs even more. And don't talk to me about perks that make it weightless, because by the time I get that far up the armour perk tree I'm ready to retire the character anyway. Armour is pretty much the last skill to advance, by the time that reaches 70 there's really not much in the game that can slow you down.

Alteration perks also include magic resistance.

And illusion doesn't affect the three types of enemies you'd most want it to. Undead, which are everywhere. Automatons which are in every Dwemer ruin, which is EVERYWHERE, and Atronachs, which are less common, but are a summon that the aforementioned undead absolutely love. But what's more important? After a while they flat out stop working period. I understand why, but getting more powerful as I am, I should be getting the upgrade to those spells for free when I pickup the next relevant perk. Even if you're dedicated enough to run back to town, and pick up the more powerful version upon being informed the enemy is too strong, by the time you get back, they may well have changed into something even immune to the new spell. And by then even the most dedicated RP'er is going to switch to just beating it to death.

If you invest fully in the Illusion perk tree, you can illude[1] every living enemy. (Well, except Alduin. But let's face it, Alduin makes most every skill except "stabbing him in the face" irrelevant.) Certainly if you make that tree your main focus, you should be able to keep up with all living enemies. Frenzy, unperked, affects up to level 14; add Kindred Mage and Rage to get it up to a respectable level 36 - and that's before dual-casting, which allows it to reach, well, everything with a mind. And that's just an Adept-level spell.

True, it's harder to get the perks that allow you to affect undead and automatons, but - well, that's a limitation of the school. All that means is that you need to have some other skills up your sleeve. If you want to play a one-trick pony in Skyrim, Illusion is not for you - try two-handed weapons instead.


[1] That should totally be a word, so I'm coining it here and now unless someone can give me an existing word that's more specific than "affect" or "influence".

[Aeson]

[illude] should totally be a word, so I'm coining it here and now unless someone can give me an existing word that's more specific than "affect" or "influence".

As it happens, "illude" is, in fact, a transitive verb in the English language, and one of its meanings is "to subject to an illusion."

Re: dual casting, I'd add that the rate at which something happens can matter quite a bit, especially if the scenario is not heavily one-sided.

[factotum]

I do see where Triaxx is coming from with regard to the dual-casting system. Why does it cost nearly three times as much mana to make your spells only a little over twice as effective? Things like Impact shouldn't be taken into account when determining the spell cost, IMHO, because you're not guaranteed to have them.

[Anteros]

I do see where Triaxx is coming from with regard to the dual-casting system. Why does it cost nearly three times as much mana to make your spells only a little over twice as effective? Things like Impact shouldn't be taken into account when determining the spell cost, IMHO, because you're not guaranteed to have them.

Well, since it's not a turn based RPG you have to consider the time it takes to pump out your damage/spells as well. Dual casting helps on that front. Damage might be lower in the long term with dual casting, but it's almost objectively better for things like burst damage, or shutting down a single dangerous enemy.

Alternatively, I guess you could just hop on a rock and be completely immune to most enemies...but only the Dragonborn possesses such elite skills.

[Triaxx]

I suppose dual casting is useful for utility spells where you've got to deal with arbitrary level caps. For destruction it's less useful to have an additional twenty percent damage than a full third casting. Yes, the additional mana waste is useful for the coin flip of Impact, but just spraying spells works just as well.

A level 1 character can grab the Steed Stone, lose the weight of the armor, and now be completely protected for free, plus the other benefits of Steed. Magic Resistance is... at 30, 50, and 70, and is such a tiny fraction that even an awkwardly bad enchanter can beat it on two items. One if you bother with a potion.

Illusion's fantastic, but eventually you're left with the final enemy, so you need something to deal with it. And after you've burnt all your magicka on making him deal with his friends, you need something efficient to deal with him and single cast Destruction is what you want.

As usual, damage comes down to did you just miss with your one half-bar super shot?

I'm also purposely ignoring total cost reduction, because by the time you can manage that, it's irrelevant what you've taken perk wise, because it suddenly costs nothing. Plus you can only get two schools for free, which is something of an unfair balance to the equation. It's like asking what would you buy if you had infinite money, but Food and Bills no longer cost anything. It means the two things you need money most for are gone from the equation, imbalancing it heavily towards luxuries.

[DigoDragon]

I dunno, man. I've been staring at this screen trying to figure out how to explain how I feel for about an hour now.

I think this line says a lot about how you really feel.

There is some support to the Alteration spells in vanilla. One perk makes them last slightly longer. Stability at 70 gives +50% duration. And Mage Armor Doubles and eventually triples the protection if you're not wearing armor while using a flesh spell. But there's no penalty in vanilla for being in full Daedric armor and waving magic at everything. So there's no point at all in not just wearing armor, unless you're roleplaying.

The only significant "penalty" for wearing armor is that's less available carry weight for looting dungeons. ;)

I generally wear armor. Light armor though, since a high crafting skill allows you to still hit the armor cap.

I'm also purposely ignoring total cost reduction, because by the time you can manage that, it's irrelevant what you've taken perk wise, because it suddenly costs nothing. Plus you can only get two schools for free, which is something of an unfair balance to the equation. It's like asking what would you buy if you had infinite money, but Food and Bills no longer cost anything. It means the two things you need money most for are gone from the equation, imbalancing it heavily towards luxuries.

Does buying Bethesda count as a luxury?

[Triaxx]

After a bit you realize there's no point in anything but gold and jewels which are essentially weightless. You can carry quite a bit once you stop grabbing up every useless bit of shiny armor you see.

He says taking advantage of companions and multiple magical containers to haul anything and everything not nailed down out of the various dungeons.

Bethesda's never been a luxury.

[veti]

A level 1 character can grab the Steed Stone, lose the weight of the armor, and now be completely protected for free, plus the other benefits of Steed.

Sure, but quite apart from getting to the Steed stone, I only get one stone slot, and if I spend it on the Steed that means I don't get to use the Lord or the Shadow or... whatever.

Magic Resistance is... at 30, 50, and 70, and is such a tiny fraction that even an awkwardly bad enchanter can beat it on two items. One if you bother with a potion.

Same response applies. I'll take an internal ability over one that I have to wear a specific item for any day, thanks. Especially since they stack anyway. Combined with the Agent of Mara power, even one or two levels of magic resistance perks go a long way to making me pretty much unstoppable.

It's like asking what would you buy if you had infinite money, but Food and Bills no longer cost anything. It means the two things you need money most for are gone from the equation, imbalancing it heavily towards luxuries.

If I had infinite money I wouldn't care about the cost of food and bills, so I'd spend those enchantment slots on something else too...

[Rynjin]

Well, since it's not a turn based RPG you have to consider the time it takes to pump out your damage/spells as well. Dual casting helps on that front. Damage might be lower in the long term with dual casting, but it's almost objectively better for things like burst damage, or shutting down a single dangerous enemy.

Alternatively, I guess you could just hop on a rock and be completely immune to most enemies...but only the Dragonborn possesses such elite skills.

Well, no, you just cast two spells at once. Remember even if you're not dual casting you can cast with both hands simultaneously. It's just as fast, only a teeny tiny bit less effective, costs less magicka, and doesn't put all your eggs into one spell basket.

[halfeye]

I prefer Oblivion.

Why?

1/ Casting is easier/faster, select spell, press 'c'.

2/ Carrying stuff is easier. Sigil stones with feather 125? Yes please! and there are feather potions and feather spells too, total somewhere past carrying 2,000 units (lbs? Kgs? dunno, but it's enough for any one dungeon).

3/ If you go with 5/5/5 / 5/5/luck you're OP, at least until very late in the game.

4/ I suspect that the complaints about the faces are the uncanny valley kicking in, Skyrim's faces have totally unrealistic hair, which is probably deliberate. Olivion doesn't do old faces well, but Skyrim doesn't either.

5/ Oblivion gates are huge dungeons (somewhat repetitive, but huge). There may be more in Skyrim (I haven't checked), but the dungeons in Oblivion are better.

6/ No random wyverns. This isn't 100 % positive.

7/ Bows aren't overpowered to the same extent.

[Anteros]

Well, no, you just cast two spells at once. Remember even if you're not dual casting you can cast with both hands simultaneously. It's just as fast, only a teeny tiny bit less effective, costs less magicka, and doesn't put all your eggs into one spell basket.

It's still less damage though. You're trading long term damage output for higher dps if you want to look at it in MMO terms. Burst damage is situationally better than sustained, so it's nice to have the option. For example, it's a lot better to pop out of cover for 1 second to throw a lightning bolt than it is to stand right in front of the enemy spraying continuous lightning.

I prefer Oblivion.

Why?

1/ Casting is easier/faster, select spell, press 'c'.

2/ Carrying stuff is easier. Sigil stones with feather 125? Yes please! and there are feather potions and feather spells too, total somewhere past carrying 2,000 units (lbs? Kgs? dunno, but it's enough for any one dungeon).

3/ If you go with 5/5/5 / 5/5/luck you're OP, at least until very late in the game.

4/ I suspect that the complaints about the faces are the uncanny valley kicking in, Skyrim's faces have totally unrealistic hair, which is probably deliberate. Olivion doesn't do old faces well, but Skyrim doesn't either.

5/ Oblivion gates are huge dungeons (somewhat repetitive, but huge). There may be more in Skyrim (I haven't checked), but the dungeons in Oblivion are better.

6/ No random wyverns. This isn't 100 % positive.

7/ Bows aren't overpowered to the same extent.

I think both Oblivion and Morrowind are better games in a lot of way. The UI and the graphics haven't aged well at all for them though.

[Rynjin]

It's still less damage though. You're trading long term damage output for higher dps if you want to look at it in MMO terms. Burst damage is situationally better than sustained, so it's nice to have the option. For example, it's a lot better to pop out of cover for 1 second to throw a lightning bolt than it is to stand right in front of the enemy spraying continuous lightning.

The thing is, because it's such a tiny increase in damage, that is only even arguably better when you're fighting a single stronger target, it's not worth it.

Most of the time, you'll be fighting multiple targets, and so fire two spells is better.

Or, alternately, you're fighting something immense like a dragon...and then Time To Kill becomes far more important than DPS. In most scenarios the tiny increase from dual casting is not going to result in a higher TTK...and will often result in less, as you chew through your magicka and have to wait for it to recharge or chug potions.

[halfeye]

I think both Oblivion and Morrowind are better games in a lot of way. The UI and the graphics haven't aged well at all for them though.

Nor has Skyrim, Fallout 4 in 1080p is amazing, leaves Skyrim at 2560 * 1440 totally in the dust of it's wake, Fallout 4 almost looks photographic.

On the other hand, on GUI's I think Skyrim took a step backward on containers, 'r' for instert was okay but 'r' for take all when it's only a click away from insert one at a time? Who hasn't picked up all the contents of a container unintentionally? I've done it dozens of times, and I hate it.

[Aeson]

In most scenarios the tiny increase from dual casting is not going to result in a higher TTK...and will often result in less, as you chew through your magicka and have to wait for it to recharge or chug potions.

(I'd point out that when you're talking about time to kill, lower TTK is better than higher TTK, because reducing TTK means killing the target and thereby shutting down that incoming damage source faster. "Dual casting will not result in higher TTK and will often result in less" implies that it is often better to dual cast than not to do so, which I gather is not a statement that you agree with.)

I think both Oblivion and Morrowind are better games in a lot of way. The UI and the graphics haven't aged well at all for them though.

While I don't think that the UI for any of the TES games is all that great, I personally think that Morrowind's UI is the best UI in the three most recent TES games, especially when it comes to inventory/spell/character information. At least to me, the resizable and relocatable windows that let you see everything you need or might want to know in one location are preferable to the fifteen different submenus filled with oversized font and large low-resolution icons that Oblivion uses or the similar menu system that Skyrim uses.

[Anteros]

The thing is, because it's such a tiny increase in damage, that is only even arguably better when you're fighting a single stronger target, it's not worth it.

Most of the time, you'll be fighting multiple targets, and so fire two spells is better.

Or, alternately, you're fighting something immense like a dragon...and then Time To Kill becomes far more important than DPS. In most scenarios the tiny increase from dual casting is not going to result in a higher TTK...and will often result in less, as you chew through your magicka and have to wait for it to recharge or chug potions.

I can't say I've ever really noticed many magicka problems in Skyrim. Then again, I do solely boost magic when I level, since health and stamina are completely unnecessary. I don't particularly focus my perks or gear towards magic though.

I think dual casting is good enough for what it is. It's a low level perk that gives you increased damage potential on all your spells as long as your mana can sustain it and slightly increased utility as well. It's not the best perk in the game, but it's situationally useful like most other perks around its level.

[Rynjin]

(I'd point out that when you're talking about time to kill, lower TTK is better than higher TTK, because reducing TTK means killing the target and thereby shutting down that incoming damage source faster. "Dual casting will not result in higher TTK and will often result in less" implies that it is often better to dual cast than not to do so, which I gather is not a statement that you agree with.)

Thanks for the catch; that and other typos are the price to pay for not giving your full attention to either thing you're doing at the time. =/

I can't say I've ever really noticed many magicka problems in Skyrim. Then again, I do solely boost magic when I level, since health and stamina are completely unnecessary. I don't particularly focus my perks or gear towards magic though.

I think dual casting is good enough for what it is. It's a low level perk that gives you increased damage potential on all your spells as long as your mana can sustain it and slightly increased utility as well. It's not the best perk in the game, but it's situationally useful like most other perks around its level.

Even in vanilla Skyrim I find there are too many things that can chew through a mere 100 HP to COMPLETELY neglect it, though I do usually leave off at about 200-250.

RE: Magicka running out, even if you get some cost reduction, if you don't hit that 100% there's still a solid chance of running out since many spells are extraordinarily expensive. Yeah, you might have 600 MP, but when that big badass spell you like costs 150 and doesn't AoE enough to kill everyone, things get tight.

[Anteros]

Even in vanilla Skyrim I find there are too many things that can chew through a mere 100 HP to COMPLETELY neglect it, though I do usually leave off at about 200-250.

RE: Magicka running out, even if you get some cost reduction, if you don't hit that 100% there's still a solid chance of running out since many spells are extraordinarily expensive. Yeah, you might have 600 MP, but when that big badass spell you like costs 150 and doesn't AoE enough to kill everyone, things get tight.

I've never really had any problems with leaving health at 100. Sure, you die sometimes if something strong gets the drop on you, but that's part of the fun of playing. I don't bother maxing out my armor for the same reason. If I wanted to play as an invulnerable god I'd just turn the cheat on and save myself 100 hours.

Same thing with magicka. Sure, you might run low in an extraordinarily tough fight...but that's part of the fun. It's not as if you aren't lugging around 6,000 magic potions anyway if you really need them.

Granted, someone else's optimally designed character would probably destroy mine in a fight...but for me the point of the game is to make a build that's fun to play and strong without breaking the game.

[Triaxx]

Of course if you really want to go that route you should spend the entire game crouched with a bow under the influence of Atronach chugging enchanting/alchemy looped potions that boost the damage of arrows by some absurd amount. Or save the effort and just TGM.

Yes, technically you get a shorter Time to Kill with dual casting, but then you spend more time either waiting on your magicka to regenerate, or chugging potions. Or doing both because you run out of the potions, and then have to sit and wait. Personally I'd rather spend the mana on a full powered blast than 20% of one.

[factotum]

While I don't think that the UI for any of the TES games is all that great, I personally think that Morrowind's UI is the best UI in the three most recent TES games, especially when it comes to inventory/spell/character information.

That's almost certainly because Morrowind was the last TES game where the PC was the primary platform with consoles largely an afterthought, so they designed a decent (not great, but decent) PC UI and then fudged it as best they could to work on console. Oblivion and Skyrim both have console-derived UIs, and in the case of Skyrim at least they didn't bother to change it to work properly with mouse and keyboard.

[LibraryOgre]

That's almost certainly because Morrowind was the last TES game where the PC was the primary platform with consoles largely an afterthought, so they designed a decent (not great, but decent) PC UI and then fudged it as best they could to work on console. Oblivion and Skyrim both have console-derived UIs, and in the case of Skyrim at least they didn't bother to change it to work properly with mouse and keyboard.

True dat. I couldn't play Skyrim without SkyUI.