Teleporting into a sealed room that has moved.

[Silva Stormrage]

Hey, random rule question that I am not sure how to rule on.

Situation: NPC is hiding in a 20 by 20ft random structure in the sky. PC's have seen the interior of the room once before and know the building is in the sky. However, the NPC teleports the structure around the sky and sometimes even underground on occasion. Can the PC teleport or greater teleport into the structure?

I mean they have viewed the destination at least once. But it's not really the same destination anymore. I am curious if there is any official ruling on this sort of thing.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's right in the spell description of Teleport actually.

You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination.
...
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.

I'd say your question is exactly what the bolded part was written for. If the room has moved it's not in the same location anymore after all.

Same applies to Greater Teleport.

If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location.

[BowStreetRunner]

You're overthinking the problem. The idea that it isn't the same destination anymore is going to give you fits. Try not to get overly philosophical with things like this. Concepts like relative motion aren't really relevant in the rules for teleport. Your destination is a place. It can be a place that stands still or a place that moves. Through multiple editions the game has dealt with things like teleporting on and off of moving ships, airships, and even spelljammers without any problem.

Think about it this way. One of the most challenging concerns built into the Teleport spell has always been the issue of Similar Areas. You can end up in an area that’s visually or thematically similar to the target area if you aren't careful. But if the relative location of that area were important, this wouldn't be an issue. For example, let's say you want to teleport to the United States Capitol. People in Hollywood shoot video at the Wisconsin State Capitol all the time because the two buildings are visually and thematically similar. So if you use Teleport based on incomplete images of the US Capitol you could end up in Madison or Washington D.C. If your destination had to be in one specific relative location however, there would be no chance of accidentally routing to Madison.

It's right in the spell description of Teleport actually.

I'd say your question is exactly what the bolded part was written for. If the room has moved it's not in the same location anymore after all.

Same applies to Greater Teleport.

More likely the bolded part was written to account for things like the room being in the top of a tower that was destroyed, or a room in a building that was remodeled.

[Deophaun]

Basically, you want to travel to a location that has changed location. It's one of those weird edge cases where you need to figure out what definition of "location" you are using.

If I'm filming a movie "on location" on the USS Enterprise (just assume that the Navy has somehow given me a permit), that doesn't mean that the carrier is stationary, does it? So, obviously, "location" can be used in a sense that does not relate to position. Further, consider that you don't need to have any idea where the location is to even teleport to it. If you scry a person and see the room, you can teleport there directly even though you don't know where they are apart from the four walls or whatever you see through the scrying sensor. That is, the teleport is keyed to what is at the position, not the position itself.

You are of course free to take a very strict interpretation of location, but it seems to me that the rules imply a more looser definition.

[icefractal]

To make things even trickier, imagine if said BBEG had a second sky-tower with the exact same room architecture as the first. When he moves the original away, he moves the second one into the old position.

So there exists a room at the same location as the previous room, that looks just the same, but isn't the same. Which one do you go to?

[Silva Stormrage]

To make things even trickier, imagine if said BBEG had a second sky-tower with the exact same room architecture as the first. When he moves the original away, he moves the second one into the old position.

So there exists a room at the same location as the previous room, that looks just the same, but isn't the same. Which one do you go to?

Yes hence the issue I was having

I thinking I am going to go with allowing them to teleport into the room as the room has not significantly changed. The idea of being unable to teleport onto a flying castle thats cruising through the sky seems odd to me.

That plus scry and die proves you don't need to know the exact location to teleport just the visual image. It seems odd that if you scried into the room saw everything you could teleport in but if the room moved you would have to scry again (Showing the EXACT same image) in order to teleport there again.

[zergling.exe]

Yes hence the issue I was having

I thinking I am going to go with allowing them to teleport into the room as the room has not significantly changed. The idea of being unable to teleport onto a flying castle thats cruising through the sky seems odd to me.

That plus scry and die proves you don't need to know the exact location to teleport just the visual image. It seems odd that if you scried into the room saw everything you could teleport in but if the room moved you would have to scry again (Showing the EXACT same image) in order to teleport there again.

That's why you have windows in it, or windows with false images that are changed occasionally. They try to use the window information and get a false location, since there is no location with the locale they are trying to teleport to.

[Quertus]

The room is still the room, no matter how far the planet it's sitting on has moved. Trivial changes in location, like it flying around, or moving underground, are likewise unable to affect its identity.

[Fizban]

The idea of being unable to teleport onto a flying castle thats cruising through the sky seems odd to me.

Sounds like a dang good reason to build a flying castle.

That plus scry and die proves you don't need to know the exact location to teleport just the visual image.

The fact that people might allow something means they should allow something? I'm not aware of anything in Scrying that says it makes you ignore Teleport's rules. It lets you see a place, the sensor moves with whoever it's locked on, that's it. If Teleport is ruled to be rendered void by moving targets (which would also include ships), then the moment you stop looking at the location its moved and your spell fails.

Luckily Scrying tracks a person and does not use concentration, so you actually can Teleport while its active.

[sleepyphoenixx]

More likely the bolded part was written to account for things like the room being in the top of a tower that was destroyed, or a room in a building that was remodeled.

Location is explicitly part of a correct mental image required to teleport. If the room isn't in the right location anymore you have a textbook case of "misleading information".

Yes hence the issue I was having

I thinking I am going to go with allowing them to teleport into the room as the room has not significantly changed. The idea of being unable to teleport onto a flying castle thats cruising through the sky seems odd to me.

That plus scry and die proves you don't need to know the exact location to teleport just the visual image. It seems odd that if you scried into the room saw everything you could teleport in but if the room moved you would have to scry again (Showing the EXACT same image) in order to teleport there again.

You can teleport into a flying castle - if you know it's current location.
As for scrying, the scrying image presumably substitutes for not knowing the exact location. Magically, because it's magic.

[Mr Adventurer]

I like the idea that motion voids teleport targeting. It makes ships, flying castles, zeppelins, crawling lobster underwater palaces etc. require a like measure to get to them.

With a bit of tweaking, you could still teleport right near them, of course, because there'd be something nearby that isn't moving - you'd just need to do the last bit yourself.

Would this also invalidate Dimension Door within a moving structure?

[Fizban]

Nope, DD not invalidated.. Dimension Door only requires you to visualize or "state direction" (presumably also distance) to your target. Since DD transfers you to a "spot," it lacks the "location" phrasing, so visualization should work, as does stating distance and direction relative to yourself as long as you've matched speed or account for the movement properly. Most importantly DD says you always arrive exactly where desired, while Teleport says the spell can fail for a bunch of reasons.

[ngilop]

I guess maybe I a bit different here but to me the ROOM is the location, not the 'address' of the flying castle. So greater teleport would have zero issues getting somebody to that room.


For instance I want to teleport to the 3rd support arch on the south side of original London bridge. I have been to and actually have a piece of said bridge. Greater teleport is like what up bro! lets do this. and POW I end up in Arizona. It does not matter that the bridged changed the bridge itself is my location.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I guess maybe I a bit different here but to me the ROOM is the location, not the 'address' of the flying castle. So greater teleport would have zero issues getting somebody to that room.


For instance I want to teleport to the 3rd support arch on the south side of original London bridge. I have been to and actually have a piece of said bridge. Greater teleport is like what up bro! lets do this. and POW I end up in Arizona. It does not matter that the bridged changed the bridge itself is my location.

"Location" has a specific meaning. That being where something is, not what it looks like. The room is merely the layout of your destination.
Teleport explicitly mentions both location and layout as requirements, so by RAW you'd need the address.

As for your example, Teleport does explicitly mention that a location having changed matters. Again, it's right there in the spell description.

“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you.

Admittedly a small piece being missing doesn't qualify as "completely altered", but to come back to the OPs example the structure you're trying to teleport to no longer being there certainly does.

[Deophaun]

"Location" has a specific meaning.

Interesting, as when I go to Dictionary.com, I get seven, not one.

[EldritchWeaver]

Interesting, as when I go to Dictionary.com, I get seven, not one.

1. a place of settlement, activity, or residence: This town is a good location for a young doctor.
2. a place or situation occupied: a house in a fine location.
3. a tract of land of designated situation or limits: a mining location.
4. Movies. a place outside of the studio that is used for filming a movie, scene, etc.
5. Computers. any position on a register or memory device capable of storing one machine word.
6. the act of locating; state of being located.
7. Civil Law. a letting or renting.

Number 4, 5, 6, and 7 are not relevant here, but even for the others I don't see a difference in regards to the teleport spell. So I'm not sure what your intention here is.

[Deophaun]

1. a place of settlement, activity, or residence: This town is a good location for a young doctor.
2. a place or situation occupied: a house in a fine location.
3. a tract of land of designated situation or limits: a mining location.
4. Movies. a place outside of the studio that is used for filming a movie, scene, etc.
5. Computers. any position on a register or memory device capable of storing one machine word.
6. the act of locating; state of being located.
7. Civil Law. a letting or renting.

Number 4, 5, 6, and 7 are not relevant here, but even for the others I don't see a difference in regards to the teleport spell. So I'm not sure what your intention here is.

Really. You consider a "situation" to be a set spot, identifiable by coordinates? Interesting.
Have you looked up the definition for "place?" That's also fun.

[Mr Adventurer]

Yes, as in situated.

[ngilop]

"Location" has a specific meaning. That being where something is, not what it looks like. The room is merely the layout of your destination.
Teleport explicitly mentions both location and layout as requirements, so by RAW you'd need the address.

As for your example, Teleport does explicitly mention that a location having changed matters. Again, it's right there in the spell description.

Admittedly a small piece being missing doesn't qualify as "completely altered", but to come back to the OPs example the structure you're trying to teleport to no longer being there certainly does.

Teleport, Greater
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level:Sor/Wiz 7, Travel 7
This spell functions like teleport, except that there is no range limit and there is no chance you arrive off target. In addition, you need not have seen the destination, but in that case you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. If you attempt to teleport with insufficient information (or with misleading information), you disappear and simply reappear in your original location. Interplanar travel is not possible.

one just needs a reliable description of the place, not even having to have seen it. Why you keep ranting about location (and why I fell for trying to argue it) does not matter because the spell sends you to a destination ( in both greater and regular versions)

I want to teleport to a very specific Room THAT is a destination. so all of this rawr rawr rawr talk about location and you needing a correct address is moot.

[Afgncaap5]

I actually have a number of different schools of magic in my homebrew campaign worlds who handle this particular problem differently. The two broad approaches would be "If something has moved it's not *there* anymore, so you can't go there, but you might be able to go to where it once was" and "A place is defined by relative position not specific position, so you can still go there as long as it's not out of range."

I have just enough material to pull out in an emergency in case a player ever thinks to ask about the problem of rotation of the earth and revolution of planets and the spinning of galaxies. The long and short, though, is that the second group of casters has a much easier time teleporting between planets than the first group.

[Zanos]

You can teleport onto flying cities(netheril) and ships, so I don't see why you couldn't teleport into a moving room.

Should probably be warded, though.

[Deophaun]

Yes, as in situated.

So a situation comedy is a comedy that exists at a particular spot?
If I am in an uncomfortable situation, that can be solved by going nextdoor or down the street? Just movement fixes that?

Remember, the claim is not that there exists some definition that meets sleepypheonixx's interpretation, but rather that "'Location' has a specific meaning." Singular. Thus, all seven of those definitions for "location" are the same. All 29 definitions for place are the same. All seven definitions for situation are the same. Frankly, I don't see it.

[Mr Adventurer]

You're just being silly.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It's pretty damn clear that the "location" in the description of Teleport refers to it in the context of a place.
Notably because no other of the posted definitions makes a lick of sense in the context of teleporting somewhere.

It also mentions both location and layout as requirements. As two distinct things. There might be ambiguity otherwise, but the spell description comes right out and tells us that these are two different things, and you need both for a successful teleport.
Which should make clear that it doesn't just matter what your destination looks like but also where it is.
Otherwise there'd be no point in making the distinction.

If you want to allow people to teleport into moving structures without taking that into account go ahead, but if you want to claim it's RAW you better find a good explanation for what else "location and layout" could be referring to. In the context of the Teleport spell, because apparently that needs to be clarified in a thread about Teleport now.

[BowStreetRunner]

Many years ago a player in one of my games made the argument that an insult from another character constituted a verbal attack and should therefore set off a magical effect that was triggered by any attack. The fact that the dictionary lists this sort of thing as an attack doesn't mean the game designers intended the effect to work that way, but try getting a room full of rules lawyers to agree on a common definition for the word 'attack'.

The Teleport spell 'transports you to a designated destination' and requires that you 'must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination'. [Emphasis added]

I'll admit, when I first considered this spell I focused on the Familiarity conditions, which appear to satisfy the layout requirement. But the location requirement does seem to indicate a moving target is harder to reach with a Teleport. Furthermore, the description of Greater Teleport does not seem to allow you to get past these requirements so much as it reduces the outcomes to a binary choice - you either end up exactly where you intend or back where you started, with no chance of ending up somewhere else.

It's the concept of some clear idea that remains -ironically- unclear. To use the example of teleporting onto a ship at sea, I think that if you know the ship is at anchor off Cape Cod then you should be good as far as location goes. If the ship is actually in the Pacific Ocean and you think it's in the Atlantic, I don't believe you can teleport. But what if you think the ship is somewhere in the Mediterranean Sea? How close to the exact location do you need to get to have some clear idea?

At this point I am willing to accept that moving the structure in the original post would decrease the chance of a successful teleport. I'm just not sure there is any definite answer as to how far away it has to move to impact the spell. Also, keep in mind that the teleportation table actually only factors in familiarity. It doesn't touch on location at all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Also, keep in mind that the teleportation table actually only factors in familiarity. It doesn't touch on location at all.

Sure it does. Under "False destination". As in "the structure you're trying to teleport is not at the place you're trying to teleport to". That falls pretty blatantly into the "an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you." part of the spell description.

To give an example lets forget about moving rooms for now and go with something simple.
You want to teleport to the reception room in a wizards tower. You've been there often, so it falls under "studied carefully".
But since your last visit a pissed of dragon came by and turned the tower into a smoking crater. The tower is no longer there.
What happens? The place where the tower stood is still there (the location), but the tower itself is gone (the layout). I'd say that qualifies as "completely altered".
So clearly it's a "false destination". The Teleport fails as described.

Now how is this any different from the tower having moved from its previous location?

[Deophaun]

It's pretty damn clear that the "location" in the description of Teleport refers to it in the context of a place.
Notably because no other of the posted definitions makes a lick of sense in the context of teleporting somewhere.

It also mentions both location and layout as requirements. As two distinct things. There might be ambiguity otherwise, but the spell description comes right out and tells us that these are two different things, and you need both for a successful teleport.

"I'm going to teleport to the room I'm scrying." This fits with "location" being defined by situation (the situation being "currently scried by you"), requires no knowledge of where, and is independent of the layout.

You're just being silly.

No. It was your definition being silly. Take issue with that, not me.

[Telonius]

I'd think that Teleport could still get you there. It would be similar to teleporting into the hold of a moving ship, or the back of a moving wagon. (Or teleporting anywhere, if you're on a moving planet). I think I'd parse it similar to BowStreetRunner, though. If you've never seen the place before, you're out of luck. If you have a general idea of where the wagon, ship, or moving castle might be, it's not a false location. But if it's popping in and out randomly and you have no idea where it is, it's going to be a False Location.

[BowStreetRunner]

Sure it does. Under "False destination". As in "the structure you're trying to teleport is not at the place you're trying to teleport to". That falls pretty blatantly into the "an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you." part of the spell description...Now how is this any different from the tower having moved from its previous location?

For layout the descriptions of familiarity give us five degrees of difference to deal with. But for location, not so much.

So how far does it have to move to become a False Destination? 100 miles? 300 yards? An inch? Where, exactly, does the line get drawn?

The table gives you lots of choices if the layout isn't exactly known, for whatever reason. What it doesn't do is give you any sort of graduated scale based on the location having moved.

[EDIT: Of course, the answer might simply be that the amount of movement required is equal to 'Plot'. Ever notice how in sci-fi shows a character goes to visit a strange planet and somehow manages not just to arrive on the same continent as the person they are looking for, nor merely in the same city, but usually somewhere in the vicinity of the same city block? Sometimes 'go to the Dagobah system' is equal to some clear idea and sometimes you're going to need an exact street address. ]

[sleepyphoenixx]

"I'm going to teleport to the room I'm scrying." This fits with "location" being defined by situation (the situation being "currently scried by you"), requires no knowledge of where, and is independent of the layout.

"Currently being viewed" is clearly an exception to the normal rules for familiarity. It's magic. You get around needing careful study and location knowledge just from telling your magic "over there".
That doesn't mean that location isn't important when you can't use that shortcut.

Let's say the "where" doesn't matter for a moment. You try to teleport to your enemies flying fortress.
You don't know where it is at the moment, but you you've spend time memorizing the layout of one of the rooms enough to count for "studied carefully".
But your enemy has five flying fortresses, all with a room identical to the one you've studied, all constantly moving around the world.

If location doesn't matter when you can't go "over there", how do you decide to go to the right room? Does the magic just know, despite the rooms being identical?
What if two of the fortresses have switched places? There's a room exactly like you've studied at exactly the right place, but it's not the same place.
Do you teleport to the castle you studied or to the room in the fortress it has switched places with?

For layout the descriptions of familiarity give us five degrees of difference to deal with. But for location, not so much.

So how far does it have to move to become a False Destination? 100 miles? 300 yards? An inch? Where, exactly, does the line get drawn?

The table gives you lots of choices if the layout isn't exactly known, for whatever reason. What it doesn't do is give you any sort of graduated scale based on the location having moved.

[EDIT: Of course, the answer might simply be that the amount of movement required is equal to 'Plot'. Ever notice how in sci-fi shows a character goes to visit a strange planet and somehow manages not just to arrive on the same continent as the person they are looking for, nor merely in the same city, but usually somewhere in the vicinity of the same city block? Sometimes 'go to the Dagobah system' is equal to some clear idea and sometimes you're going to need an exact street address. ]

There's certainly some need for DM interpretation on what exactly "so completely altered as to no longer be familiar" means.
I'd say it also depends on exactly where you're teleporting to. A forest clearing at the foot of a mountain? As long as there's still forest around and the mountain visible in the background you're probably fine.
A windowless room? If it's been completely remodeled (or no longer there) i'd say you're out of luck.

Basically my interpretation of that rule is "if you appear at the target spot and can recognize it as the place from your memories it's not a false destination.". If there's a significant landmark small alterations don't matter. If there is no landmark standing out details become more important.