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Thread: Would you throw the sword?
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2018-07-13, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Would you throw the sword?
Let's presume you have Roy's body, gear, stats and feats, but mind and free will are of your own.
All in-world rules still apply. You definitely know that there's an afterlife both for you and the child. You also know that there are Raise Dead and Resurrection spells somewhere out there. You know that if Durkon* isn't stopped, the world probably gets unmade next day. You know that you can hit or miss, and also that Durkon* probably won't expect you to continue attacks, nor he has much up in his sleeve if he resorts to a baby shield.
So, would you throw the sword?
Bonus questions:
1) Would you throw the sword if that's a grown man Durkon* was hiding behind?
2) Would you throw the sword if you knew that Durkon* has more means to escape (like, there's another vampire ready to break another teleportation sphere right behind him)?
3) Would you throw the sword if, by means of Oracle's prophesy, you knew that Kudzu will grow into a dwarf that makes Xykon look tame by comparison?Last edited by ghoul-n; 2018-07-13 at 04:17 PM.
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2018-07-13, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2006
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
I would metaphorically throw it at anyone trying to figure out when it's philosophically permissible to kill a baby.
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2018-07-13, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Would you throw the sword?
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2018-07-13, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: Would you throw the sword?
I suspect not. Not only am I taking my psyche, raised in a world without an afterlife et al, but we know that a resurrection requires a willing soul, and that young children aren’t so willing. I think life is too important to waste like that. As for your questions:
1: maybe, I can ask permission or at least explain a resurrection to an adult
2: no, cause escaping is fine by me, we know where he’s headed anyway
3: this is the Hitler question, and no, because oracle or not I don’t accept predestination. Also the oracle is less than clear. Might turn out being Kudzu is worse than Zykon at water polo. Also also, if you do believe in predestination then killing the babybin a world with undead and resurrections doesn’t solve the problem. We are literally experiencing that now!
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2018-07-13, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Location
Re: Would you throw the sword?
Until those two clerics are dusted, there is not a compelling tactical reason to attack Greg. Greg sitting there within an anti-life shell is not a world ending threat, for the immediate moment.
I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2018-07-13, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2014
Re: Would you throw the sword?
Of course I'd throw it.
Originally Posted by SRD
On the bonus questions, I'd still take the shot in 1 and 2, but not in 3. Why would I waste all that potential loot and XP?
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2018-07-13, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2018-07-13, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Re: Would you throw the sword?
As with most "would you kill a baby" questions, it has the fundamental flaw of ignoring all the non baby killing ways you can accomplish the same task. In this case, as long as Durkon is fighting Roy, he can't complete his goal of mind controlling the council. Roy doesn't even need to kill Durkon, he just needs to keep him busy or in the room until after the vote.
There's never a situation where you have to kill a baby.
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2018-07-13, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2004
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
Yes, the killer trolley charging down the rail line scenarios depend on perfect information about something that it is hard to really know and the demand for a split second decision. In the real world, standing there confused is an acceptable answer.
The real lesson is that it is easy enough to create a set of messy scenarios that will defy one simple formulaic answer, at least no such answer will get anywhere near a consensus acceptance.
Of course, some people cannot resist the temptation to decide they are particularly insightful and courageous because they are willing to apply a simplistic morality to complex scenarios.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2018-07-13, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
Re: Would you throw the sword?
I would throw the sword without hesitation, no matter how great the guilt. One life, or many? Besides, as the OP said, Raise Dead is a thing in this world, and a baby has enough of a Constitution score to lose 2 points of it.
The mission must come first. Morality is a luxury: Those who save the world cannot sacrifice the world just to feel good about themselves.
I'm reminded of a comment in the "Don't Split the Party" commentary. I might not like what happened, I might even find that horrific. But I can get over it given what's at stake.
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2018-07-13, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Re: Would you throw the sword?
Again, you might want to look at what the actual scenario is and why you think killing Durkon and the baby is the only option.
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2018-07-13, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
That's all fine and dandy in the driest hypothetical terms, but unless you can actually establish that throwing the sword is absolutely necessary at that exact moment in order to fulfill your noble mission of saving everybody else (and good luck establishing that), then you're just endangering and quite possibly killing a baby for a fleeting tactical advantage. Also, there's no guarantee that the baby would want to come back.
It's easy to think up super contrived scenarios where it might be the right choice. None of them apply to Roy.ungelic is us
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2018-07-13, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
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2018-07-13, 08:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2012
Re: Would you throw the sword?
Why would the world be unmade? Durkon hasn't done anything to the council yet.
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2018-07-13, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
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2018-07-13, 08:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2011
Re: Would you throw the sword?
As a player, Hel yes I'd throw.
As a person I'd have looked for another way around the problem. Like not entering a known to be trapped and otherwise prepared battlefield.
Or I could have done what my brother did in a game: he set his ambush just before the enemy ambush site and did the Clevon Little/Gene Wilder thing. It worked out for him.
The issue here is in allowing the enemy to control the encounter. This is always a mistake. But bailing out of mistakes is the OotS theme all the way back from the first failed spot checks.
Actually, he sent Gontor with a copy of Robert's Rules Of Dwarven Order to the council. Even failing here could be a win for Hel if they burn enough time off the game clock for Gontor to quash debate and force a motion to vote onto the floor.Last edited by brian 333; 2018-07-13 at 08:18 PM.
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2018-07-13, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Finland
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
Yeh, I would. I don't have any strong feelings for babies, not that I should let any such play a part in this anyway. I'd aim at Greg's head though. Actually, I might aim at one of the vampire clerics for a change of pace.
Proud member of the Vaarsuvius Fan Club.
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2018-07-13, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2018-07-13, 08:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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- Raleigh, NC
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
I would, but after using my 20' of movement to remove the soft cover.
And, honestly, after dusting the other two clerics. Action economy is king, and getting Belkar* back/taking Haley out of the equation is sorta like killing 2 enemies and getting an ally. Hell, with Belkar's amulet, it's also a 50-50 shot of killing 3 enemies and getting 2 allies back.
*From context clues, it's pretty clear that Elan & Helgya are under Durkula's control. From # of rounds it took to dominate the party, the rest have to be under another vampire's control.If it's not obvious, insert a after my post.
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2018-07-13, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: Would you throw the sword?
You don't get to be a hero by casually throwing swords at babies. Sure, coldly calculating that the baby is an acceptable casualty to keep reality from being unmade is understandable, but if you're going to do it without hesitation, you're not a hero. Heroes don't do things emotionlessly. Heroes get torn up about the awful things they might be forced to do. Heroes would do anything else before killing a baby because they've been asked to choose between killing the baby and save the world. It's an agonizing decision to make.
That's why Roy is a hero. Because he won't kill that baby.
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2018-07-13, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Location
- Here.
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
No? There's not even a need for that sort of hard moral choice here. There's still plenty of time before Durkon's plan is enacted. Heck, there's still two vampire clerics who aren't Durkon up and about. And even if there weren't, Durkon* is a high-level vampire cleric. He's spam healing himself. One baby's life for one Harm spell from Durkon* is the world's worst tradeoff.
Bonus questions:
1) Would you throw the sword if that's a grown man Durkon* was hiding behind?
2) Would you throw the sword if you knew that Durkon* has more means to escape (like, there's another vampire ready to break another teleportation sphere right behind him)?
3) Would you throw the sword if, by means of Oracle's prophesy, you knew that Kudzu will grow into a dwarf that makes Xykon look tame by comparison?
I realize that my answers here don't really involve a lot in the way of defenses of the sanctity of life or moral questions or that sort of thing, but while I am certainly of the firm belief that killing a baby is Very Morally Wrong, it seems kind of stretching for a quandary to debate this sort of trolley problem when it's not even an actual solution to the problem at hand.I am: Neutral Good: -2 chaos, -21 evil and 15 balance!
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2018-07-13, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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2018-07-13, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
If I were Roy, I'd attack the blue-robed vampire dwarf. That should free up at least some of the Order to help me. Doesn't seem like a particularly difficult moral question.
Even if I were alone and Greg was the only enemy left, I wouldn't throw the sword in the original scenario, or in bonus scenario 1 or 2. I would look for another way out of the dilemma. I wouldn't in 3, either, if the prophecy specified that it would certainly come to pass. If the prophecy was conditional, however, and only specified that if Kudzu grew up, he would make Xykon look tame by comparison, and if I was alone, and if Greg was the only enemy left, I would probably throw the sword. I believe that the ends don't justify the means, and deliberately killing a baby is probably always wrong, no exceptions. (I say "deliberately" because in some wars it is impossible to avoid killing some civilians by accident, and I don't think all of those are necessarily unjust.) However, there's only so much strain any one principle of mine can take. I don't think I could justify making it likely that millions of dwarves would be condemned to eternal suffering just because I wanted a baby to live to grow up and kill millions of people. I'm sorry, that's just too much. I can't handle that level of idealism. I'd probably just accept that I was doing the wrong thing and throw.Last edited by Emanick; 2018-07-13 at 10:00 PM.
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Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2018-07-13, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Would you throw the sword?
I suspect that in the OotS universe, you can’t circumvent a prophecy by just killing someone.
But I’m absolutely certain that in the OotS universe you can’t circumvent a prophecy by KILLING A BABY.
You might as well ask “if there were a trolley full of vampires heading to the World Series, would you push a really, really fat baby (with 1,000 livers) onto the tracks to derail the train and save the New York Yankees from becoming vampires, thus preventing them from forfeiting all future day games?”Last edited by Dion; 2018-07-13 at 10:14 PM.
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2018-07-13, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2018-07-13, 11:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
I really don't understand this logic that "Oh, there's definitely an afterlife and Raise Dead exists, so you can kill anyone you like without any moral complications". It doesn't work that way, as Miko found out to her cost. Killing someone you don't have to is always an Evil act, so Roy won't do it; I wouldn't do it either, because I don't kill babies for fun and profit.
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2018-07-13, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
I'll echo the people saying that as has been made evident, you can't circumvent prophecy with the death of the subject of said prophecy.
However, if I had a prophecy from the oracle that at this exact moment if I threw the sword I would hit Greg and Kudzu would not be harmed then I would do it.
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2018-07-14, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Manchester, UK
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2018-07-14, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
Re: Would you throw the sword?
I didn't want to spoil Looper for anyone who hasn't seen it because it's a good time travel film, but....
That's the origin of the Rainmaker in Looper. The real way to stop the Rainmaker wasn't to kill him, but to save his mother's life.Last edited by NerdyKris; 2018-07-14 at 05:48 AM.
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2018-07-14, 05:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
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Re: Would you throw the sword?
Well I meant if I had my prophecy instead of the "kudzu grows up to be horrible" one, but that is a fair point if I had both of them. However, if I had a prophecy that Kudzu is going to grow up to be horrible, then no matter what I do he will do so, whether I'm the prophesied causal agent or not due to how prophecies seem to work in OotS.