Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

[enderlord99]

or how some people are fine in 99% of circumstances but you never play a board game with them because they are competitive to a fun-draining degree.

That's Spike

Or how some very nice actors typecast themselves into horrific villains roles because they enjoy it.

That's Timmy.

Being a Dave is not the same as going out to hurt people in every circumstance for no reason.

Yes it is.

---

He said:

I grieve as long as <snip> does not seriously reduce my opponent's enjoyment of the game.

...and "grieve" is a dramatic way of saying "be sad."

He's sad if he can't make his opponents sad.

That is how a Dave works. And it's messed up.

[Fable Wright]

That is how a Dave works. And it's messed up.

That is a play psychographic, not a summation of a person. A Spike is not a type A hypercompetitive person all the time because that's the vague category they fall into. A Johnny can enjoy playing simple games without things to tinker with. We are not always who we are when we play Magic.

Do I want to play Magic against a Dave? Of course not.
Do I think they torture puppies on camera and upload them for the sole purpose of basking in the negative reviews of people he's seriously upsetted? Also no, that's a huge assumption to make about a person based on how they play childrens' card games.

[Mystic Muse]

Yeah, I'm not a bad person because I like playing Stax.

I'm a bad person for a whole host of other reasons.

[enderlord99]

We are not always who we are when we play Magic.

While people can/do have multiple facets, and can exhibit different ones in different situations, they are still the same person. If "cruelty" is the sole reason you do something, even if that something isn't done often, you are not a decent person and should not be welcome anywhere.

That said, it's possible I misread his post and he's just a Timmy who happens to have a heel persona; that's perfectly acceptable.

EDIT:

Yeah, I'm not a bad person because I like playing Stax.

Obviously. Stax, based on the descriptions I've seen, isn't inherently Dave.

[Gauntlet]

I don't really get how the Dave psychographic idea even works to be honest. It's not like you can force someone to continue playing a game if they don't want to, so as soon as you make the game a net negative for the opponent they aren't exactly trapped or anything.

In competitive magic, firstly the sort of gameplan that 'Dave' is meant to use is unlikely to actually lock anyone out if his opponent is playing a competitive list, and if it does the best case scenario for Dave is going to time, I guess? But again, your opponent can always concede. If 'Dave' is trying to make people suffer by being deliberately annoying, obstructionist or problematic in ways outside the game itself, well, that's what judges are for.

In kitchen table magic, if all you do in games of Magic is try to annoy your opponent, your opponent will only keep playing Magic with you if it doesn't bother them.. if Dave actually succeeds at his goal with any frequency in casual magic, he'll run out of opponents. I guess he could move from casual playgroup to casual playgroup getting kicked out of all of them? This doesn't strike me as a psychographic profile that actually exists in any relevant amount. I know people who play Stax and use lines like 'I want my opponent to have a terrible time' and so on, but even they are still caring about how they feel when they do this to their opponent, which makes them a Timmy/Tammy

[Ninjaman]

I agree with tgva8889 and gauntlet that the Dave psychographic doesn't really make sense.
There's a lot of people who enjoy playing "annoying" decks, but the thing is they enjoy them, they don't enjoy their opponent suffering.
How many players do you honestly think exist, that would have assembled their perfect hard lock, have their evilest grin on their face, and then have that grin wiped off when the opponent utters "That's actually pretty cool"?
Because that's what it would take to actually be a Dave.

My guess is that those players are next to none.

[unseenmage]

Not sure if I should be impressed or embarrassed that discussing intellectual bullying in the MtG community has taken the form it has for this discussion.

The guy who largely taught my og lgs playgroup MtG to play is a bully and a troll. Dude is an 'old school' DM too. Would rather set up unwinnable gotcha moments regardless if its MtG or D&D.

That said he was also generous and patient with newbies. He just delighted in feeling superior more than winning. And yeah that's at the kitchen table and in tourneys.

Trouble is, I had to go play in other towns before I understood that acting superior and tricking your opponent wasn't the point of playing.

Eventually I figured it out. It was just bullying. Nobody got beat up or swirlied but it was bullying all the same.

Now he's old and retired from MtG for like the dozenth time and our local MtG community wouldnt exist without him however the hazing newbies get in that town can be pretty brutal.

The hand-me-down bad feels originating with him have been at least partly responsible for at least three of the four game stores closing their doors. It's hard to attract players from other towns to events when the locals are so... uninviting.

So yes. Real life trolls exist. They can primarily derive satisfaction from tormenting opponents. And that behavior can be passed on and even rewarded by a playgroup.
But they're people too, which means theyre complex and do not always stay in their pigeonhole.

Or at least that's my take on it based on my experience.

[LansXero]

But they're people too, which means theyre complex and do not always stay in their pigeonhole.

Or at least that's my take on it based on my experience.

Gee, its almost as if the profiles are just marketing short-hand and have no actual relevance outside of that role. Go figure.

Also, there are plenty of people who just do things to get under people's skin or to frustrate them. It has nothing to do with winning and can be entirely legal as long as they contain themselves.

[Spore]

Dude, I did a joke (funny or not) about liking to play annoying decks. Neither is that the only stuff I play nor do I specifically go out into life to hurt people. It is a non-professional psychological reading from a blog post.

A BLOG POST!

Jesus, the gall of some people who think just because they have a silly list of "5 personalities who play game xyz" they can automatically extrapolate that the guy who accepts Namira's Ring (cannibalism artifact in Elder Scrolls) has to be a psychopathic murderer.

By that extent, everyone playing black is a masochist and power hungry, everyone playing red is a pyromaniac, people playing white are holier than thou people, people playing blue are r/iamverysmart material and people playing green are stupid hulking idiots that like to smash.

[tgva8889]

My general thoughts is that yes, terrible people exist, but that's not the point of psychographics and VestDan's article I think would have been more effective as an argument that there are a lot of terrible people who play Magic than trying to identify it as a psychographic. Psychographics are, as LansXero points out, mostly a marketing thing Wizards uses, and can be an identifier for you if you want. The thing about Daves is that VestDan's article, to me, reads like someone coming up with something to call people he doesn't like rather than someone trying to make an identity that is useful for players and/or designers.

The main thrust of the discussion I was trying to involve myself in is "Is Dave a psychographic, or should we consider elements of Dave part of the other, already existing psychographics?" and my argument was the second. Being a Timmy/Tammy, Johnny/Jenny, or Spike does not mean you are not also a Dave; Dave, as VestDan describes, is a scum of the earth person who I fully believe exists, but I think psychographically that person is probably better described as one of the others. Feel free to still call them a Dave, though, if it helps you feel better about yourself or better understand how you should interact with them.

[Eurus]

Also, considering "Dave" as a psychographic isn't very useful to WotC unless they either 1) start trying to market and build for Daves in the same way that they do the other profiles, which is extremely unlikely...

...or 2) try to counteract and shut out the Daves to improve the play experience for the other demographics, in the same way MOBAs keep trying to figure out how to reduce griefing and obnoxious attitudes. I guess that's a little more likely, but the article isn't really presented in a way that makes it useful for Dave-reduction.

[Androgeus]

Any thoughts on Ravnica Allegancie?

Spoiler: “Do we still talk about unreleased cards in spoilers?”

Show

personally can’t wait to get my hands on Mirror March for my Norin edh deck

[Spore]

Also, considering "Dave" as a psychographic isn't very useful to WotC unless they either 1) start trying to market and build for Daves in the same way that they do the other profiles, which is extremely unlikely...

...or 2) try to counteract and shut out the Daves to improve the play experience for the other demographics, in the same way MOBAs keep trying to figure out how to reduce griefing and obnoxious attitudes. I guess that's a little more likely, but the article isn't really presented in a way that makes it useful for Dave-reduction.

They do reduce cards that remove options for the enemy though mostly as an overpriced (mana wise) option for troll decks. See:

- Mill
- Land destruction
- Prison decks
- Grixis hand hate


As for allegiance, I am VERY excited for Simic and Rakdos. Rakdos to please my inner SMORC, Simic to finally have something else U/G other than merfolk. Though realistically it will probably just make the mono blue flier deck ditch Tempest Djinns to heavily splash in green.

[Techwarrior]

Any thoughts on Ravnica Allegancie?

Spoiler: “Do we still talk about unreleased cards in spoilers?”

Show

personally can’t wait to get my hands on Mirror March for my Norin edh deck

That card in particular is the kind of effect I was hoping would never be in standard. If it's good, it's going to be miserable to play against because sometimes the card will resolve and literally do nothing for the rest of the game. Sometimes though, you'll just get 8 tokens of the effect in one turn and just win the game entirely.

Note that I do understand that somewhat random effects already exist in MtG, but those are mostly card draw style effects such as red exiling cards that you can cast this turn. It's much more palatable to lose to good draws then to literal coin flips.

Basically, I think this card is neat and fun. It was not printed in the right set though. I feel like this should've been in the next Commander product.

[Eurus]

I think that it's definitely more of a Commander card than a standard one, but printing janky commander-ish cards in normal sets has always been a thing. Not every card is optimized for Standard/Modern/Limited.

As a 6-mana enchantment that does nothing on the turn it comes down, it's competing with way better late game win conditions. I'm sure some people will try to pull it off, but it strikes me as a less reliable Thousand Year Storm equivalent, let alone comparing it to something like Niv-Mizzet. I'm not even sure what kind of deck wants this sort of effect... some kind of U/R/G deck, maybe?

[Emmerlaus]

That's not my favorite cards in the new set (I have so many!)

Spoiler: Training Ground equivalent

Show

Biomancer's Familiar is a Training Ground equivalent. It synergy very well in a creature commander deck and it cost way less then training grounds. I'll take it!

Spoiler: The reason I'm making a Yasova Dragonclaw deck

Show

Domri, Chaos Bringer is such a awesome beast! Riot is a awesome ability and the fact it gives mana AND Riot ability to creature is perfect for me. Even the emblem is cool and will synergy well in my sacrifice theme of the deck Im making

Spoiler: Another card made for Commander format

Show

Guardian Project will be a mandatory staple in almost any creature based Commander deck

Spoiler: Alhammarret's Archive new best friend! Dont play one without the other!

Show

Hydroid Krasis is exactly what I wanted in Simic based +1/+1 counter commander deck. Give me everything I wanted!

Spoiler: One of the other reason Im making a Yasova Dragonclaw deck

Show

Rhythm of the Savages makes my incoming creature deck hard to deal with, cost only three mana and is a better version of Fires of Yavimaya.

Spoiler: Simic just got a new alternate win card and its SICK!

Show

Simic Ascendancy is only a two drop enchantement that could grow very fast in the right deck AND it can gives +1/+1 counters to your creatures as well! I'll take it!

Spoiler: The only awesome card with Addendum in this set

Show

Unbreakable Formation is a three drop instant that makes your creature indestructable for a turn. If used in your turn, it also give a +1/+1 counter on every creature you own. White need such resistance to board destruction, especially token decks. The added +1/+1 COunters can be good with the right creatures too. I play a Isperia the Unscrutable deck with High Sentinels of Arashin in it for exemple and a few other creature where it's going to be useful. Definitly picking that card.

Spoiler: For those who are fan of Bear Umbra in ANY commander decks

Show

Wilderness Reclamation is awesome but Im not sure how useful it's going to be yet... Being able to intimidate your opponent with all your lands untapped is awesome though.

[Spore]

Wilderness Reclamation is simply to slow in standard. But it WILL be a cornerstone in midrange Simic imho if the meta shifts the right way. Play creatures, untap everything to be able to counterspell. every. single. turn. I mean there is enough tech to prevent enemy instants during your turn.

[Emmerlaus]

Wilderness Reclamation is simply to slow in standard. But it WILL be a cornerstone in midrange Simic imho if the meta shifts the right way. Play creatures, untap everything to be able to counterspell. every. single. turn. I mean there is enough tech to prevent enemy instants during your turn.

It's a double edged sword. A clever opponent will destroy it when your lands are all tapped during your turn. It could leave you vulnerable for a full turn rotation if you aren’t careful.

[tgva8889]

It seems powerful with Nexus of Fate, effectively doubling your mana to cast this extra-turn spell. The sequence of Teferi +1 into Nexus of Fate after your Wilderness Reclamation is the beginning of the end.

[Finback]

There is also the little known fourth psychographic.

I just want to note that there has already been an established fourth psychographic for many years now, since at least 2005 - VORTHOS.

Vorthos is the player who builds decks around storylines, tribes, or concepts; an example would be running a deck of horrors, with any of the "book artifacts", and calling it Miskatonic University. It's making a deck with Gerrard, Mirri, Sisay, Hanna, Squee and Tahngarth solely to reflect the old Weatherlight crew. Or a Goblin deck that isn't necessarily the most efficient goblins, but the most fun (Goblin Snowman, anyone?)

[Androgeus]

I just want to note that there has already been an established fourth psychographic for many years now, since at least 2005 - VORTHOS.

Vorthos and Mel/Melvin are different axes than why some one plays Magic. They are more about what someone finds more asceticaly pleasing, mechanics or flavour. Your link basically says this.

[Spore]

The new set is weird. Either half of the deck is from new cards or none at all, like Mono White or Golgari MR.

[Svata]

I've seen the golgari decks branching out into Jund for Spellbreaker and Rhythm of the Wild.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Went 4-5 against my brother over the holidays, using M19 packs. It was nice. I had forgotten what it was like to handle physical cards. I do find tokens and counters to be a little fiddly in the physical game though.

Still holding my opinion with regards to Magic Arena. I'm having fun, but I felt that way about Hearthstone when I first started that game. We'll see how I feel in half a year's time.

What I can say now, is that I much prefer Arena's reward structure. You have inherent weekly and daily rewards on top of daily quests. Too many times I've logged onto Hearthstone only to be given a win quest for a class I don't have a viable build for. Arena's rewards tend to be based on things like cards played, at least in my experience. No meta deck? Just queue up with a 100% free starter deck and sling some random cards of the appropriate color.

Not quite so sure about wildcards. It's less destructive than the dusting system, but it feels like it takes longer to target specific cards. And with 60-card decks, well it takes even longer.

Got Domri from my RNA packs, and immediately tried to build around. I don't even know if Domri is any good but that's the only planeswalker I have dangit.

Currently FTP-ing my way to a monogreen deck. Because I've always had a thing for green. Ramp, summon big things, limited interactivity. Though it is fun to drop a Kraul Harpooner on an opponent's big flyer.

[Spore]

Not quite so sure about wildcards. It's less destructive than the dusting system, but it feels like it takes longer to target specific cards. And with 60-card decks, well it takes even longer.

Dust is 100% the more consumer friendly system. In both games the second rarity is the most sought after (epics then legendaries for HS, rares and mythic rares for MTG) but I have a pile of uncommons and commons that I wish I could combine to get one or two rares.

[Zhentarim]

What color philosophy is sultai?

I understand dimir and esper pretty well, but green seems completely counter to blue and black.

[Emmerlaus]

What color philosophy is sultai?

I understand dimir and esper pretty well, but green seems completely counter to blue and black.

One of the five Clans of Tarkir, the Sultai Brood admires the ancient dragons' aspect of ruthlessness. The fang of the dragon is its symbol. The Sultai Brood is a decadent and merciless clan which lurks in ancient palaces in the steaming jungles of Tarkir.

A simple Google research gave me the answer lol!

[Douglas]

Dust is 100% the more consumer friendly system. In both games the second rarity is the most sought after (epics then legendaries for HS, rares and mythic rares for MTG) but I have a pile of uncommons and commons that I wish I could combine to get one or two rares.

900 commons or 300 uncommons (or weighted combination thereof) gets you a mythic and 2 rares (along with 3 uncommons) of your choice. The "catch", such as it is, is that only ones above and beyond your fourth copy of each card count. Also that conversion rate is pretty low.

One thing to keep in mind here is that the alternative to the current system is not "current rewards plus a dusting system", but rather "reduced rewards plus a dusting system". The level of rewards you get for playing is calibrated with the lack of dusting in mind.

[ImperiousLeader]

What color philosophy is sultai?

I understand dimir and esper pretty well, but green seems completely counter to blue and black.

I found this article helpful.

Another approach is to break it down a little. Sultai is the combination of Simic, Golgari and/or Dimir. What would draw these three guilds together, or any pair of them?

[Boci]

What color philosophy is sultai?

I understand dimir and esper pretty well, but green seems completely counter to blue and black.

The closest I can think of is Dimir with a nature focus since they live in a jungle rather than the undercity.