Fantasy Races Best Friend?

[OACSNY97]

If dogs are considered mankind's best friend and there's an opinion that humans and canines here on Earth may have co-evolved each other, what about the other fantasy races?

What if cats (or some kind of bird) are to elves as dogs are to humans?

[Diamond Dragon]

To a certain extent, a species that co-evolved with another humanoid race would behave like dogs. The domestic dog was changed far more dramatically than any other domestic animal because it's been with us for much longer - estimates range up to over a hundred thirty thousand years. Humans and dogs are quite skilled at recognizing each other's emotion and intent for utterly different species with no common language (many dogs can recognize pointing gestures, for example, and they're very good at learning from observing humans), and we display convergent evolution towards an oxytocin loop - basically, when you look in a dog's eyes, and the dog looks back, both of your brains are giving you the love chemical. Predators normally tend to see prolonged eye contact as a sign of aggression, not affection.
Cats, by contrast, are still largely in the 'convenient living arrangement' phase of evolution. We feed them, they chase pests away from our crops.

So if elves had evolved with cats the way humans had evolved with dogs, I'd expect to see friendlier, less independent cats who look to their pet elves for companionship, support and problem solving - this bit is relevant. Dogs are less intelligent than wolves, presumably because they've had humans around to figure things out, and if they're presented with a problem they can't easily solve, they often look to nearby humans for help. I'd expect them to better recognize elven emotions and themselves have moods more easily recognized by elves.

[hymer]

Cats, by contrast, are still largely in the 'convenient living arrangement' phase of evolution. We feed them, they chase pests away from our crops.

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You make a lot of sense, but it should be possible to give a more creative answer. Think of dolphins training humans to help them fish, e.g. A particular kind of naked mole rat can detect a coming earth quake, and prods the hole-dwelling halflings to get outside and protect the mole rat for the duration of the stay above ground.
Or with elves and cats, elven needs could be different from that of humans. Elves firmly tell pests to go play in the woods, but attracted cats because they need the sound of their tread to make potions of stealth. Elven cats have developed particular stealth capabilities, and can sense magic users, who are likely to feed them.

[RobD]

I actually kinda like the idea of Humans and their near relations (Halflings, Half-eves, etc) being the only ones among the PC races to domesticate animals. Like, Elves and Dwarves are just completely floored when they consider how Humans took Wolves and made them into Dogs over the course of centuries. Whether they're jealous or horrified probably depends on which one you ask...


I'm also pretty sure humans invented agriculture in D&D as well. Doesn't seem a very Elven pursuit.

[Mr Beer]

I actually kinda like the idea of Humans and their near relations (Halflings, Half-eves, etc) being the only ones among the PC races to domesticate animals. Like, Elves and Dwarves are just completely floored when they consider how Humans took Wolves and made them into Dogs over the course of centuries. Whether they're jealous or horrified probably depends on which one you ask...

"Wait what, you murdered the aggressive ones and turned the submissive ones into your willing slaves? Charming."

[Aliquid]

A bird that amazingly co-evolved with humans
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...ntists-thought

[Joe the Rat]

I'm rather taken by alternative domestcations - the forest-dwelling elves using deer and elk the way we use horses, for example.
Not having a good workbeast means dwarves travel by foot and do the grunt labor themselves. No wonder they're surly.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Let's see...

Orcs might have some sort of domesticated swines, but more dogs than pigs. Maybe with the idea that orcs are already good at hunting, but can use some help in gathering. Thog think truffles great.

Dwarfs would have something that can help in mining, so a donkey/pony thing. Maybe evolved from the cow lineage, to keep it a little fresh.

Lizardfolk out in there swamps might have domesticated giant rats, basically dogs as well, but more suited for a watery environment, and suitably wild and creepy to look good together with scaly savages.

There's probably at least one species that managed to take falconry further than humans ever have. Elves could work, or if the birds are large enough a small race would be nice. Flying goblins, run for your lives.

Another small race could have a huge beast of burden. Maybe like a rhinoceros serving the role of an oxen. Both kobolds and gnomes are good candidates because of their tinkering. If we go with kobolds we can give the gnomes some sort of burying best friend, maybe a badger or a dire hare or so. Or they just both get huge bests of burden, and then they go to war with each other.





Ogres get kittens.




Trolls don't get kittens, they never keep their promise not to eat this one.

[OACSNY97]

You might have a point regarding that if cats co-evolved with elves they would behave in a more dog-like manner.

I started this thread because I was wondering how co-evolving with different species might effect different fantasy races' behavior and thought patterns. Humans are adaptable, endurance predators and their usual DnD stats back it up or at least don't contradict it, but what about the other major races?

I'd like to help differentiate the traditional DnD races from each other a bit more while trying to avoid the rubber forehead alien problem and singled out elves in my opening post as I could see building a pretty good argument that they're lurker predators where humans are endurance predators. As lurker predators, I could see early elves desiring different traits in the animals that share their lives than humans have valued in canines.

(And yes, for all he's Drow, Drizzt and his panther, Gwenwyver, would probably fight right into this stereotype, oops)

To a certain extent, a species that co-evolved with another humanoid race would behave like dogs. The domestic dog was changed far more dramatically than any other domestic animal because it's been with us for much longer - estimates range up to over a hundred thirty thousand years. Humans and dogs are quite skilled at recognizing each other's emotion and intent for utterly different species with no common language (many dogs can recognize pointing gestures, for example, and they're very good at learning from observing humans), and we display convergent evolution towards an oxytocin loop - basically, when you look in a dog's eyes, and the dog looks back, both of your brains are giving you the love chemical. Predators normally tend to see prolonged eye contact as a sign of aggression, not affection.
Cats, by contrast, are still largely in the 'convenient living arrangement' phase of evolution. We feed them, they chase pests away from our crops.

So if elves had evolved with cats the way humans had evolved with dogs, I'd expect to see friendlier, less independent cats who look to their pet elves for companionship, support and problem solving - this bit is relevant. Dogs are less intelligent than wolves, presumably because they've had humans around to figure things out, and if they're presented with a problem they can't easily solve, they often look to nearby humans for help. I'd expect them to better recognize elven emotions and themselves have moods more easily recognized by elves.

[Khedrac]

Elven (or at least faerie) Horses and Hounds are a staple of myth and legend (hint - if you see white animals with read heads and feet you may have just crossed into faerie-land).

D&D has had domesticated liazrds and flightless birds for some races in various versions.

3.5 D&D added the Brixashulty as a halfling-raised species of goat.

Rather than doing this by race, I favour doing this by environment - so all races will domesticate what lives in the same places that they do, but I can see that humans have dogs everywhere that we can so there is a definite place for a racial bias too...

[OACSNY97]

I especially like your last point. It does help explain why humans are frequently the dominate playable race in DnD settings from an internal world building perspective. Why _have_ the humans been able to not only avoided either merging with or being subsumed by the other races/species that have the same traits that made humans the dominate species on Earth (namely, thumbs, fire, brains and a willingness to mate with just about anything) but dominate Faerûn and Greyhawk as well as they have since the other traditionally playable races have all the extra bonuses? Agriculture actually makes sense since it allows for a more compact civilization to grow.

I actually kinda like the idea of Humans and their near relations (Halflings, Half-eves, etc) being the only ones among the PC races to domesticate animals. Like, Elves and Dwarves are just completely floored when they consider how Humans took Wolves and made them into Dogs over the course of centuries. Whether they're jealous or horrified probably depends on which one you ask...


I'm also pretty sure humans invented agriculture in D&D as well. Doesn't seem a very Elven pursuit.

[Eloel]

Eberron has halflings with dinosaurs. It's glorious.

[Iamyourking]

I feel like Dwarves would logically keep cats. In addition to the Dwarf Fortress connotations, cats are small-and therefore well suited to narrow tunnels, useful for keeping vermin away from the grain stores that they use for brewing, and able to see in the dark.

[Aliquid]

I feel like Dwarves would logically keep cats. In addition to the Dwarf Fortress connotations, cats are small-and therefore well suited to narrow tunnels, useful for keeping vermin away from the grain stores that they use for brewing, and able to see in the dark.

Ferrets meet those criteria too, and naturally like being under ground.

[redwizard007]

You would have to consider the limitations of the animals involved, and what negative effects they would suffer from. Also, animals that form group bonds are far more likely to become domesticated.

The pony/donkey example probably wouldn't work due to the equines going blind in dark environments (as they did in RW mines.) Rinos are poorly tempered for domestication and do not have a group dynamic to exploit. Deer and moose could be good candidates except that their spine wouldn't support the weight of a rider or load.

Having said that, we are using six limbed monsters all through D&D, many of whom can propel massive body weights with rather small wings, so probability, evolution and physics are already weeping in the corner.

[Iamyourking]

Ferrets meet those criteria too, and naturally like being under ground.

True, but ferrets have traditionally been associated with Gnomes. There's no reason they can't both use them, but I thought that an exotic animal like that should be tied to a specific race.

[Cluedrew]

One thing, none of them would likely be an X, where X is the animal we know. It would probably be a variant of that, after undergoing domestication. Sort of like wolves and dogs. A wolf isn't mankind's best friend, a dog (with millennia of evolutionary work put into it) is.

So maybe dwarfs have some pet lizard create that can sense things through walls and after countless generation have become trainable interwoven with dwarfs as dogs have with people. And know I have some ideas for elves having been a little to successful breading their intelligent monkey pets.

[Kitten Champion]

One of our settings had elephants as a significant aspect of the elven lifestyle. Mirroring some of the significance they hold in places like Thailand. Aside from the labour they provide, they are commonly found in their art, sports, architecture, and folklore. They were largely responsible for forming the nascent roadways which were necessary for the elves to have an inter-tribal economy and common culture through the jungle which covers much of their domain.

They also live quite a while naturally - and they were bred for increased longevity - which allows for greater emotional attachment than what elves experience with other animals, that could be seen as comparable to how we view goldfish or hamsters relative to dogs or horses. The elves will still outlive them, but they aren't tossing them down the toilet after a few months -- so to speak.

[Vitruviansquid]

Humans have doggos.

Orcs have froggos.

[Kaptin Keen]

Play World of Warcraft:

Humans: Horses
Elves: Cats
Orcs: Boars
Dwarves: Bears (I believe their first mount vendor actually sells horses, but that's just boring)

And so on. Trolls ride lizards, but ... that doesn't much work for dnd trolls =)

Of course the OP isn't about mounts, but still.

[Kitten Champion]

There's also Warcraft III

Humans - Horses
High Elves - Dragonhawks... or large colourful mountable birds
Night Elves - Sabertooth panthers/tigers
Dwarves - Griffins
Orcs - Wolves, wyverns, and kodo beasts... or large saurian quadrupeds
Trolls - Giant mountable bats

The Undead have giant spiders, kinda.

Not sure who got the best deal there, but the Dwarves seem to enjoy themselves immensely.

[Black Jester]

Well, if Dwarves live in mountain ranges by preference or default, their prime domesticated animals probeably should be adapted to this environment as well. Therefore i think that dwarves should probably have a thing for a) birds and b) mountain goats. It is quite possible to train eagles for hunting purposes (in Mongolia, they used to train eagles to hunt wolves) and a mountain eagle companion fits a dwarf very well. The alliance between dwarves and intelligent birds (especially raven9 is also quite Tolkienesque, so there is this additional classic element to it. Large goats - perhaps large enough to be ridden- also fits the dwarven environment well - goats, at least in fables and cliché, are tough, stubborn, frugal and tend to be in a constant bad moot - they are bascially quadruped dwarves with horns. Goats are also ridiculously sure-footed, what helps in a mountaineous environment. So, I can totally see a dwarf noble riding on a huge ibex or a shaggy mountain goat, carrying his golden eagle on a gauntlet while hunting goblins and wolves.

[Anonymouswizard]

I actually kinda like the idea of Humans and their near relations (Halflings, Half-eves, etc) being the only ones among the PC races to domesticate animals. Like, Elves and Dwarves are just completely floored when they consider how Humans took Wolves and made them into Dogs over the course of centuries. Whether they're jealous or horrified probably depends on which one you ask...

I'm using this in the fantasy setting I'm developing. Elves will use animals but they won't tame or domesticate them, at the most their priests will charm them or shapeshift into one. Dwarves fight a never ending battle with the animals infesting their stores. High dwarves (read: gnomes) don't bother, they make the best tools and walls that no post can get through, so they don't have the need.

Humans domesticated dogs and later on horses, and will tame useful animals. When they manage to build larger empires they try to use cross generational record keeping to domesticate longer lived animals (you see those Wyverns over there? The end result of an attempt by a truly ancient human empire to domesticate dragons. Strangely that empire eventually fell to a mixture of cone and line breath weapons). Other races are terrified that humans keep trying to range the Tarrasque for some bizarre reason, and have managed to range and domesticate some less dangerous monsters as as griffins.

It is said among the other races that if a human discovers beings that man was not meant to know they immediately declare it to be a great big cutie pie and that it'll get along great with their dog.

[Cespenar]

Tolkien orcs had wargs, IIRC. Which are even more brutal than normal wolves.

Going by that logic, if we correlate savageness with a penchant for taming, then the worst tamers would be elves. They would just let the animals roam free or whatnot.

[hymer]

Tolkien orcs had wargs, IIRC.

You do recall correctly, but the Orcs and Wargs were more allied than the Orcs were taming them. Wargs are intelligent, have their own language, and they liked to cooperate in raiding with mountain Orcs.

[Kitten Champion]

I forgot the Hippogryph for the Night Elves.

Which is actually an interesting direction for animal domestication in a fantasy setting. When you can construct your own chimeras to fit numerous roles with magic, you can go pretty biopunk with your Elves.

[Cespenar]

You do recall correctly, but the Orcs and Wargs were more allied than the Orcs were taming them. Wargs are intelligent, have their own language, and they liked to cooperate in raiding with mountain Orcs.

I remember more capturing and enslavement than alliance, but anyway, that's beside the point.

[Kaptin Keen]

herefore i think that dwarves should probably have a thing for a) birds and b) mountain goats.

Rams! God's, how could I forget. They ride rams.

[Diamond Dragon]

You might have a point regarding that if cats co-evolved with elves they would behave in a more dog-like manner.

I started this thread because I was wondering how co-evolving with different species might effect different fantasy races' behavior and thought patterns. Humans are adaptable, endurance predators and their usual DnD stats back it up or at least don't contradict it, but what about the other major races?

I'd like to help differentiate the traditional DnD races from each other a bit more while trying to avoid the rubber forehead alien problem and singled out elves in my opening post as I could see building a pretty good argument that they're lurker predators where humans are endurance predators. As lurker predators, I could see early elves desiring different traits in the animals that share their lives than humans have valued in canines.

(And yes, for all he's Drow, Drizzt and his panther, Gwenwyver, would probably fight right into this stereotype, oops)

Well, humans likely evolved to be endurance hunters on their own, and learned pack hunting from wolves. Though along those same lines, I could see elves AND dwarves being lurkers, with improved night vision across the board, sharper senses and agility/stealth for elves, and affinity for burrowing/tinkering for dwarves. Proto-dwarves building primitive pit traps? From there I could see elves potentially domesticating (and being domesticated by) cats of whatever variety using similar hunting tactics - proto-humans and proto-dogs are speculated to have met doing roughly the same thing in running down weak prey - and...well, I'm drawing a blank on dwarves. Trap door spiders?
When you get too exotic, the dog comparison kind of goes out the window. There's a distinct 'domestic phenotype' that mammals display (look up the russian fox experiment) with a smaller, rounder skull, reduced cranial capacity, lower aggression and more social activity. Dogs show this in comparison to wolves, and we show this in comparison to neanderthals. However, as far as I know, this only applies to mammals.

But yes...in broad strokes, for any given humanoid, I'd figure out how they hunt, and then figure out what critters they met hunting the same way. That more than anything will form the basis for cooperation and cohabitation prior to the development of civilization.

[LibraryOgre]

I actually kinda like the idea of Humans and their near relations (Halflings, Half-eves, etc) being the only ones among the PC races to domesticate animals. Like, Elves and Dwarves are just completely floored when they consider how Humans took Wolves and made them into Dogs over the course of centuries. Whether they're jealous or horrified probably depends on which one you ask...


I'm also pretty sure humans invented agriculture in D&D as well. Doesn't seem a very Elven pursuit.

This ties with my version of humans that get a Charisma bonus... because we're generally the race that gets along with EVERYONE.