Best Martial Gestalt Combo?

[DadisGaming]

Hello all!

I love the level of discussion that occurs on this site. I've been doing my own research, but I'd love to hear your thoughts: what do you think is the strongest Gestalt martial combo?
A few restrictions:

• No dipping, just two full classes, all the way up.
• No Occult Classes.
• No Prestige Classes or 3rd Party, Paizo only.

The campaign will last until 13th level or so, possibly up to 15th, so bear that in mind.

I think the fighter is strong just in general. I like the Ninja a lot, I've thought about comboing with Monk for flurried TWP sneak attacks, or Druid for ultra wild shape natural attacks. Barbarian//Monk is strong too, eventually you get no exhaustion from raging, which seems great.

Thoughts? I'm aware of all the general rules: full BAB, good saves, d10 HD. I'm interested in strong survivability, good damage output, and versatility/effectiveness outside of combat is always a plus, as I think RP potential in a character is enjoyable (thought not crucial here).

Thanks for stopping by!

[vasilidor]

Barbarian monk is only possible with the martial artist base monk archetype, and the base monk is an under performer. now as far as *best* goes, what do you actual wish to accomplish? two weapon fighting? two handed fighting? sheer monstrous damage output? Barbarian Alchemist(mutagen and rage stack) while swing a great sword comes to mind, or Fighter Investigator (weapon training and studied combat)... you could do that one, take two weapon fighter archetype and make hash out of whatever enemy you face just about. using point buy to get a 16 strength and intelligence... bring the strength up to 30 with wealth by level and mutagens (yes you can get them as Investigator discoveries) you would have a +42 to hit after power attack and two weapon penalties with your first set of swings (you will have easy access to flight and haste) and do +36(main)/+25(off) damage with your weapons... and I forgot to add in magic weapons entirely I just realized...
this is barely touching the utility that investigator brings to the table.
just notice the 13 level cap, haste and fly are still on the table. with two weapon fighting and power attack using just class abilities with this class combo you will have a + 21 to hit and a +19 to damage with primary hand and +13 damage with your off without adding in any magical weapons whatsoever. now if you got your hands on a pair of +1 wounding weapons...
assuming a starting strength of 16 and intelligence of the same.

[Florian]

One of the overall better ones is Paladin//Oracle (Cyclopean Seer). It´s also a great archer with (Divine Archer) on the Paladin side.
If mounted combat is a serious option, Barbarian (Mounted Fury/Superstitious)//Cavalier is a joy to play.
A little bit more complicated, the Fetchling Fighter//Rogue (Shadow Scion) going deep into Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Step-Up is a master of mobility, while a Fighter//Slayer (Ankous Shadow) has eerie powers of battlefield control.

[Catarang]

Bard/Paladin isn’t bad for an all-rounder build. Best BAB progression, d10 hit die, both cast off charisma, all good saves, a plethora of support buffs/auras, a wide skill list, 6 + int skill points, plus 4ths and 6ths. A bit MAD even with the same caster stat, but if you don’t mind being a little squishie and relying on your swift action lay on hands self heals you can probably just go Str/Cha, or dex/cha with a ranged weapon.

[Quertus]

Pity about the no dipping - if you could take a single dip to get their SA damage occurring on alternate levels, I'd probably play a Rogue/Thug in that scenario.

Personally, I prefer the mechanics of Crusader and Rogue. And "heal 2 on hit" and "+Xd6 SA on hit" seem to synergize well. So, a TWF Crusader Rogue?

Although I prefer the fluff of Monk, and have played a Monk Rogue before. A well-buffed Flurry of Sneak Attacks is a terrifying thing.

EDIT: missed the pathfinder label, sorry

[DadisGaming]

Barbarian monk is only possible with the martial artist base monk archetype, and the base monk is an under performer. now as far as *best* goes, what do you actual wish to accomplish? two weapon fighting? two handed fighting? sheer monstrous damage output? Barbarian Alchemist(mutagen and rage stack) while swing a great sword comes to mind, or Fighter Investigator (weapon training and studied combat)... you could do that one, take two weapon fighter archetype and make hash out of whatever enemy you face just about. using point buy to get a 16 strength and intelligence... bring the strength up to 30 with wealth by level and mutagens (yes you can get them as Investigator discoveries) you would have a +42 to hit after power attack and two weapon penalties with your first set of swings (you will have easy access to flight and haste) and do +36(main)/+25(off) damage with your weapons... and I forgot to add in magic weapons entirely I just realized...
this is barely touching the utility that investigator brings to the table.
just notice the 13 level cap, haste and fly are still on the table. with two weapon fighting and power attack using just class abilities with this class combo you will have a + 21 to hit and a +19 to damage with primary hand and +13 damage with your off without adding in any magical weapons whatsoever. now if you got your hands on a pair of +1 wounding weapons...
assuming a starting strength of 16 and intelligence of the same.

I think Fighter//Investigator is really interesting, I'll take a deeper look into it. Assume 25 point buy, so 2-3 high stats aren't out of the question.

I don't know how to quote more than one person per reply, and I don't want to double reply, so I'll just do it here. Another person said fighter//slayer. Now I read through Slayer's ability set, and I honestly didn't see anything particularly amazing in it. Did I miss something? What makes the Slayer a strong class?

[Florian]

Although I prefer the fluff of Monk, and have played a Monk Rogue before. A well-buffed Flurry of Sneak Attacks is a terrifying thing.

On a general note, PF offers an upgraded "Unchained" Monk. The Monk of the Mantis archetype offers just that in one neat package: Flurry of Sneak Attacks. Quite cool actually, basic package being full BAB and d10.

Sad thing that PrC are out. Paizo is slowly turning pre-archetype PrC into archetypes and some organizations are not only effective, but ooze style galore. That topic is really annoying because they have created archetypes that work as the frontrunner for the PrC and don't progress further, assuming people will go for the PrC. This happened in four cases so far, one of them is interesting for this discussion and it´s something to actually talk with the GM about.

Fighter (Armiger)/Hellknight//Warpriest (Fist of the Godclaw)/Hellknight Signifer.

Ever wanted to play Judge Dredd? This is how you do it and it´s extremely cool. Note that both archetypes used extend the PrC back down to first level.

@DadisGaming:

Under each post, you have two button, one for quote and one for extended quote. Klick extended Quite and there will be a checkmark. Once you klick on quote, all the checkmarked entries will be included.

Slayer is a good Gestalt component for multiple reasons. All class abilities have a passive trigger that don't cost you any actions, like Studied Target being triggered by successfully delivering a Sneak Attack and them being class abilities with an unnamed type, they will always stack with everything else. It´s not spectacular, but it just works and you can focus on the other side of the Gestalt.

[Gnaeus]

I’m assuming, from your inclusion of Druid, that full 9 casters are an option, you just want to be top in melee.

If so, your most optimized picks will be full BAB thing//full caster. Slayer//Goliath Druid, for example, makes you a full BAB sneak attacking huge giant with bonus feats and rage (via domain). It’s 3.pf so no passive class will give you more than 13 full levels of buffs. Mutagens are nice, but monstrous physique 4 is better. Even if you never plan on casting a spell on an enemy, cleric, Druid or wizard, coupled with a good melee like slayer or brawler, is your best hit things hard choice.

[Psyren]

OP could you clarify a bit? By "Martial Gestalt" do you mean no casting at all on both sides? What about SLAs and supernatural abilities? I saw you mention Ninja so it seems some magic is acceptable - how much?

[Catarang]

Also are you asking for what we think is the most powerful/well optimized or are you asking for suggestions for a character that you are going to play?

[DadisGaming]

OP could you clarify a bit? By "Martial Gestalt" do you mean no casting at all on both sides? What about SLAs and supernatural abilities? I saw you mention Ninja so it seems some magic is acceptable - how much?

Also are you asking for what we think is the most powerful/well optimized or are you asking for suggestions for a character that you are going to play?

Thanks for asking! I'm not asking for strictly the most optimized character. I want to be effective, but anything ridiculous is not really necessary. I was thinking martials, without any full casting anywhere. I want a sturdy class on at least one side, I like the idea of being in the face of something and hitting it very hard. We already have a full casting/buff/support class on one character, so I'd like to be one to receive those buffs.

I think specifically no prepared casting is good, spontaneous casting, or casting based in combat (ninja/UnMonk ki, etc.) is good. I also think flavor and out of combat utility is great. Someone mentioned fighter//investigator, which I thought was cool.

Whatever you want to suggest is great! I'm just looking for unique, fun, and/or strong gestalt combinations to play, with an emphasis on martial strength, and smacking things, hard.

Thanks again!

[Psyren]

I'm still confused; Investigator is a prepared caster, going up to 6th-level extracts. Maybe list the classes you don't want, like Magus? Or say "no classes capable of 9th-level spells?" Would Rangers or Bloodragers be allowed?

[BladeofObliviom]

It's more interesting than super powerful, but old Lore Warden (before it was needlessly hit with the nerfbat) gestalts extremely well with Rogue, especially the unchained version.

Lore Warden heavily leans toward Dex and Int builds, and the Scholastic special ability works interestingly in Gestalt, granting an incredible bounty of 10+int skill points per level. UC Rogue saves the Lore Warden some feats on Weapon Finesse and a dex-to-damage method, and provides various helpful utility abilities in addition to Sneak Attack progression, while the Lore Warden offers the rogue a good fort save, full BAB, and the CMB math to reliably land dirty tricks to blind before Sneak Attacking.

[DadisGaming]

I'm still confused; Investigator is a prepared caster, going up to 6th-level extracts. Maybe list the classes you don't want, like Magus? Or say "no classes capable of 9th-level spells?" Would Rangers or Bloodragers be allowed?

Sorry, let's just ignore the things I've said :D just any interesting gestalt combinations with an emphasis on martial combat. Any ideas are welcome!

[Florian]

@DadisGaming:

The Oradin, a combination of Paladin and Oracle levels with the Life mystery and Oath of Vengeance has become a stable part of PF by now, offering a balanced approach to be a heavy-hitting martial and doing healing duty as a sideline. The build stub above is a bit radical, as it doesn´t only offer an extreme amount of free action self healing, making a very durable martial (throw in the Pei-Zin Practitioner archetype for more), but also comes with the power to simply declare a "natural 20" when you want to a few times a day, as well as simply imposing a -class level penalty when you need it.
Grab a x4 weapon and go smiting, it´s worth it.

[Peat]

If you wanna stick to all Martial - rather than Martial//Spellcaster - I think Ranger/Monk (Zen Archer) could be fun and powerful. Lot of straight-up damage, but also a lot of skill points, Qinggong powers, and a few spells for utility.

I really like the Fetchling fighter ideas Florian mentions too.

Always wanted to try a Paladin//Bloodrager. The flavour sounds awesome and the potential for Nova damage is huge.

If you're open to spellcaster on the other side, Magus or Warpriest seem to be the obvious two followed by Inquisitor.

[Firebug]

Far Strike Monk (for all the feats and all good saves) flurry with thrown weapons, can spend Ki to make thrown damage = unarmed damage for a round.
Flying Blade Swashbuckler for level to damage, full bab, parry and riposte/disrupting counter, increased range, improved crit.
Pick up the Startoss chain for more bonus damage, and a multi-attack if you need to move.

You do need Dex, Wis and Cha though.

[grarrrg]

Gundolon
Gunslinger//Synthesist Summoner

Gunslinger gets all the Firearm-ness you'll need.
Synthesist lets you grow a ton of Arms and/or boosts your DEX.

dakka dakka dakka dakka

[Cyrocloud]

A Fighter (Eldritch Guardian, Mutagen Warrior)/Bloodrager may be pretty fun. You get a companion that also gets all of your combat feats, and with feats you can share your blood rage buffs with your familiar and go to town. Considering the natural attacks you can probably avoid worrying about the proficiency question with eldritch guardian fighter familiars.

[upho]

Are you still looking for advice for that Cleric//Druid, Alchemist//Barb, Gunslinger//Rogue party? In that case, I think Florian's Oracle//Pally suggestion could be great.

And as usual, pretty much anything involving the Synthesist Summoner can be made extremely powerful in combat. If you don't wanna completely wreck your game, you could try combining it with a less powerful class such as the fighter, and opt for a melee defender/control build rather than a simple damage dealer (you'd still be able to deal plenty of damage if you want to anyways). Go biped and grab every AoO/Str/size/reach boost available, and combine it with say blindsight, trip stuff, Dirty Trick Master, Kitsune Vengeance and a dueling (PSFG) and leveraging Dragoncatch Guisarme for insanely high CMB values. You'll be able to consistently and reliably take at least two enemies out of the fight each round, without even having to deal damage, and no bad guy/thing will be able to safely do anything provoking an AoO while within 50'+ of you...

Gundolon
Gunslinger//Synthesist Summoner

Gunslinger gets all the Firearm-ness you'll need.
Synthesist lets you grow a ton of Arms and/or boosts your DEX.

dakka dakka dakka dakka

Ha ha! Yes, a gestalt Gundolon is likely the most monstrously overpowered damage focused build possible. Dakka dakka (Oh, the tarrasque is already dead...) dakka dakka (Cthulhu as well?) dakka dakka (Dunno what's left to kill now as I've dealt more than 5000 points of damage, but I wanna complete my full attack just this once...) dakka dakka...

@DadisGaming: For the sake of your GM's sanity and your own health, don't play a Gundolon. No really, just don't.

[nmitchell2]

I think Bloodrager (Crossblooded: Arcane, Destined)//Magus (Eldritch Scion) with the Mad Magic feat is great. It gets even better if your DM rules that Bloodrage counts as being 'in a trance' for Spell Combat because otherwise you're waiting until 8th level to use Spell Combat without spending an Eldritch Point once every two turns. The only other consideration is the increased spellcasting time for Intensified Shocking Grasp, I'm not sure if there are any workarounds for this however.

[BladeofObliviom]

A Fighter (Eldritch Guardian, Mutagen Warrior)/Bloodrager may be pretty fun. You get a companion that also gets all of your combat feats, and with feats you can share your blood rage buffs with your familiar and go to town. Considering the natural attacks you can probably avoid worrying about the proficiency question with eldritch guardian fighter familiars.

Speaking of Eldritch Guardian abuse...

Goblin Eldritch Guardian Fighter//Gunslinger (or one of the various gun archetypes for some other class + Trench Fighter on the fighter side), grab a monkey familiar. Make sure to take the Goblin Gunslinger feat, allowing you to use Medium Firearms without penalty. The monkey inherits your Firearm Proficiency and the benefits of Goblin Gunslinger, as well as any and all ranged combat feats you take. And, of course, your Base Attack Bonus.

"Don't worry, the monkey is a Professional!"
*Monkey noises, gun flailing about*

(Subject to the general Eldritch Guardian rule where the GM can say no to specific feats.)

I think Bloodrager (Crossblooded: Arcane, Destined)//Magus (Eldritch Scion) with the Mad Magic feat is great. It gets even better if your DM rules that Bloodrage counts as being 'in a trance' for Spell Combat because otherwise you're waiting until 8th level to use Spell Combat without spending an Eldritch Point once every two turns. The only other consideration is the increased spellcasting time for Intensified Shocking Grasp, I'm not sure if there are any workarounds for this however.

I think this rather violates the spirit of a thread for martially-focused builds, since most of the power is coming from spells here. And this particular build is in extremely shaky rules territory at best. (That said, Crossblooded Bloodrager benefits massively from being Gestalted with anything that has a good Will Save.)

[grarrrg]

The monkey inherits your Firearm Proficiency and the benefits of Goblin Gunslinger...

"Don't worry, the monkey is a Professional!"
*Monkey noises, gun flailing about*

I approve of the concept, but unless you can size-boost the Monkey to Small, it can't benefit from Goblin Gunslinger (let alone use Medium Firearms at all). The feat lets you ignore numerical penalties, but the standard "handedness change, size incompatibility" does still apply.

Are there any naturally Small Monkey-type familiar options? Improved Familiar options?

[Psyren]

Are there any naturally Small Monkey-type familiar options? Improved Familiar options?

Mauler archetype will make it Medium in battle form. This might be a bit too big for the concept's humor, but would allow it to function.

There are several Improved Familiars that could wield firearms, like gremlins or mephits.

[exelsisxax]

Ha ha! Yes, a gestalt Gundolon is likely the most monstrously overpowered damage focused build possible. Dakka dakka (Oh, the tarrasque is already dead...) dakka dakka (Cthulhu as well?) dakka dakka (Dunno what's left to kill now as I've dealt more than 5000 points of damage, but I wanna complete my full attack just this once...) dakka dakka...

@DadisGaming: For the sake of your GM's sanity and your own health, don't play a Gundolon. No really, just don't.

How is synthesist//gunslinger great? do eidolons have some method of using more than 2 weapons at once?

[grarrrg]

How is synthesist//gunslinger great? do eidolons have some method of using more than 2 weapons at once?

It's an extension of the default rules for Two-Weapon fighting.
Creatures with 2 hands/arms are allowed 1 attack with each (Primary/Off-hand).
Creatures with more than 2 hands/arms are also allowed 1 attack with each (one Primary/remainder Off-hand).

Multiweapon Fighting spells it out:
"Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting."

Note that there is NOT a feat for "Improved Multiweapon Fighting", so you can only get Iteratives with your Primary hand. But since an Eidolon can grow 12+ arms Iteratives tend to not be a concern.
(also note that this works best with Not-Unchained Synthesist Summoner, although Unchained can still do shenanigans)

[Gnaeus]

Not to mention that even limited to 2 weapons, he could dual wield rifles while still having free hands to reload.

[grarrrg]

Not to mention that even limited to 2 weapons, he could dual wield rifles while still having free hands to reload.

Rifles? Pfft. If limited to 2 guns, then size bump up to Huge and dual wield cannons or something.

[exelsisxax]

It's an extension of the default rules for Two-Weapon fighting.
Creatures with 2 hands/arms are allowed 1 attack with each (Primary/Off-hand).
Creatures with more than 2 hands/arms are also allowed 1 attack with each (one Primary/remainder Off-hand).

Multiweapon Fighting spells it out:
"Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting."

Note that there is NOT a feat for "Improved Multiweapon Fighting", so you can only get Iteratives with your Primary hand. But since an Eidolon can grow 12+ arms Iteratives tend to not be a concern.
(also note that this works best with Not-Unchained Synthesist Summoner, although Unchained can still do shenanigans)

Huh. I didn't know that was a thing. I would think reloading might be a problem, but... 6-10 guns. Who needs reloading?

[upho]

Rifles? Pfft. If limited to 2 guns, then size bump up to Huge and dual wield cannons or something.

This reminded me of an old bizarre image; a Gargantuan flying synth/gunslinger wielding eight Fiend’s Mouth Cannons with MWF as if they were two-handed firearms. A synth//musket master gestalt version could instead wield fourteen Fiend’s Mouth Cannons.

Now that is one serious gunship, PF style!

Though the additional -4 penalty caused by using a siege engine as a gun probably means it's a better idea to use up-sized pistols or something. Even though you target touch AC, with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, MWF with two-handed weapons (is that even possible?), size penalties to Dex and attack rolls, your attack bonus will likely suck big-time. Also, siege engines would probably be problematic to reload even though they can be wielded as two-handed weapons, since there are no alchemical cartridges for them AFAIK.

Huh. I didn't know that was a thing. I would think reloading might be a problem, but... 6-10 guns. Who needs reloading?

Reloading isn't an issue. With the musket master archetype, you can even reload multiple two-handed firearms with cartridges as free actions starting at 3rd level. Though as mentioned above, siege engines would probably be problematic.